change of plan

topic posted Sat, September 26, 2009 - 8:27 PM by  offlineCALI
Share/Save/Bookmark
Advertisement
i have been (half-heartedly, really) pursuing an architecture degree but am coming to terms with the notion that i may really just be theoretically and artistically gifted in this area.. the technical side is boring!! and i really am dragging my feet, which is really unbecoming of me.. i thrive on being fired up and foused.
anyway a few days ago i had this (great?) idea.. next year i may just try something totally out of left field and begin a law degree. i've always been told i would make a great lawyer and think being a judge one day would be fantastic. i get the feeling it might be the fresh start i need to bring my aspirations back to life.
i may very well turn around with a new passion for architecture, or even complete this degree down the track some time.. i really do love it deep down, i just may not be quite mature enough yet or something :/

have you ever done something like this? would you push through the lull or just jump ship?
posted by:
CALI
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • Re: change of plan

    Sun, September 27, 2009 - 12:41 PM
    What if you're bored of all the technicalities associated with being in law? I'm in law school right now (almost done), and it is and was nothing like what I expected after all, although I've wanted to pursue a career in law since I was like 5 (and also have been told by a lot of people that I'd make a good lawyer). Right now, it sounds like you just want to try law school because people told you "you'd be good at it.," which means once you realize it's not what you thought it was, you'll "half-heartedly" go through with it and then think about jumping ship again. The grass is always greener on the other side, right?

    To be honest with you, I've never "jumped ship" when it came to something I set my mind on... so it sounds kind of weird to me... I tend to push through and finish because if I leave it half-done, it bothers me greatly; I can't do the whole "I'll finish that later", especially if I spent a considerable amount of time and effort, as well as money into it; I better finish it and have the proof in my hands before I can move onto something else.

    Not to be critical or sarcastic, but you think you're not mature enough to complete a degree in architecture, yet you think you're mature enough to start and finish law degree? I don't know... it doesn't sound very logical to me. I've had the same urges when I was going through law school; why don't I change gear, go back to college, get a degree in biology, then take the MCAT and apply to medical school? I still may do that, but not before I finish law school first, you know?
    • Re: change of plan

      Sun, September 27, 2009 - 4:59 PM
      yeah i knew mature wasn't the word i was looking for.. i guess i mean i'm not ready. as in that is a career i may reserve for much later in my life.
      i think i'd be rather comfortable with the ins and outs of law.. it's the complexities you're referring to as technical right? it's just the mathematics and engineering type stuff that are testing my patience.
      and i do feel terrible about abandoning architecture.. really guilty and irresponsible. but right now there are causes and principles i'm ready to support and defend - i want to put my abilities to good use asap. whereas at the moment i'm lagging and losing interest even though i'm performing well.

      >Right now, it sounds like you just want to try law school because people told you "you'd be good at it.,"<
      not at all? that's most insignificant in the scheme of things :/ but it is somewhat encouraging to remember the times i've been told that when i'm here trying to make a major decision..
      • Re: change of plan

        Sun, September 27, 2009 - 8:33 PM
        No, complexity = law in my opinion, only... which doesn't weigh in a lot anyways. ;)

        What I meant by technicalities is lack of uniformity in law (at least in common law), as well as the many exceptions to the general rule.. but maybe you consider that as a complexity, I don't know.

        But I mean, unless you're not in US, you can only go to law school after you've graduated from a college with a bachelor's degree... so doesn't that mean you'd still have to finish your architecture degree anyways? Or are you pursuing a master's/doctorate in architecture? Or better yet, are you not even in US and I'm just making a huge assumption?

        >not at all? that's most insignificant in the scheme of things :/ but it is somewhat encouraging to remember the times i've been told that when i'm here trying to make a major decision.<
        Perhaps it's a lot more significant than you're giving it credit, at least from the sound of your initial post (e.g. what if they said, "you'd make a great doctor" instead?), but okay.

        However, I still don't know as to the whole INTJ preference; like I said, I've never given up on anything that I put significant amount of effort, time, and money on, especially if I was going to pursue that route anytime in my life; it's not really a matter of guilt or responsibility; more like, if I don't finish it now while I'm still in the course, then who knows what kind of circumstances will change that keeps me from finishing it, as well as I want to see the result of completing my work.

        I guess you have a reason for wanting to change to law rather abruptly when you said you wanted to support and defend certain causes and principles... but that's still going to take 3 years at least, and that's also a significant amount of effort, time, and money you'll be investing...

        Although I understand you just want a rest from mathematics and engineering-type stuff (but you're doing like a 180 turn, I think), it just doesn't seem logical to me, but I don't know you or your situation, so who am I to judge, right?

        Good luck.
        • Re: change of plan

          Sun, September 27, 2009 - 11:53 PM
          I made some grammar errors...

          >as well as I want to see the result of completing my work.<

          I meant to say...

          ? (after "finishing it") Furthermore, I want to see the completed result of my work.

          Ah... that makes me feel better.
  • Depth Psychology might help...

    Sun, September 27, 2009 - 7:41 PM
    I have been mostly at the same career (physics, computing, now retired) but have at
    times investigated other options. My tool of choice is the Intensive Journal method
    of Ira Progoff, for which there are expensive workshops, but for a flavor, you can just as well read
    the book "At a Journal Workshop" It uses depth psychology to look in your background for things you were
    keenly interested in, but never gave a try.
    I have no economic interest in promoting the workshops or the book, just that they were helpful to me
    personally.
  • Re: change of plan

    Mon, September 28, 2009 - 6:49 AM
    It sounds to me like you really don't know what kind of career you want to pursue at the moment. I think the first step would be not only to think more carefully about what type of job you would like to do (before you leap into it half heartedly again), but also think about the reality of what it will be like working in that field. There are many occupations which sound interesting on the surface, but when you really think about the reality of working as a/an (insert any occupation here), or once you realise how boring some subjects can be, the reality may not be so great. If you sit down and really think about the pros and cons of each potential career that you might be considering, you will find it easier to develop a clear goal. Also, you do have to understand that with any degree, there will be boring units and interesting ones. Sometimes you just have to push through the boring bits if you ever want to end up with a decent qualification.

    While it may seem like a waste to quit your degree, you have to be strong and if that is what you really feel is the best decision, then you have to bite the bullet and do it. And whatever else you decide to do, I think it is adviseable that you at least develop some very clear goals now and stick to them, in order to prevent more false starts.
    • Re: change of plan

      Tue, September 29, 2009 - 4:28 PM
      true Peta.. well i do it's just there's really so many..
      i have an aspiration, and i'm just having trouble choosing the right career to further that as weird as it sounds..
      • Re: change of plan

        Thu, October 1, 2009 - 10:48 AM
        Do you think that the problem might be that what you really enjoy doing is conflicting with the reality of what you would gain from a career in architecture? I'm just wondering, because I've had that exact problem. In a perfect world, I would love to be a makeup artist, a musician; if I could choose any degree based soley on interest, I would choose a fashion degree, hands down. However, the reality is that art generally doesn't pay that well, considering the amount of time and effort you invest. So, I've chosen to study Criminology and Criminal Justice instead, as it qualifies me to do quite a number of careers. I find it reasonably interesting, and I should be able to earn a reasonable salary once I'm finished studying. Just between you and me though, I'm doing a law subject (it's part of the degree) at the moment and it's like watching paint dry....might just be me but I find it extremely boring! :p

        Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that I think people are often encouraged to pursue careers that they are 'passionate' about; that they might find 'fun' or 'exciting'. The reality is, for most people there IS no such career. Most people do not get up in the morning and say "Yay, time for work, can't wait!" I am not sure whether this is really the issue at hand for you, but it could be a factor by the sounds of it.


        Oh, and yes I did jump ship once; I started a degree in psychology but as it turns out there was a lot more complicated maths involved than I had originally realised, and as I have basically no maths background I was left with no choice but to quit. I probably could have caught up if I'd really wanted to, but it would have been far more effort than I really thought was worth it and also, I would have had to ask for extensive help from the tutor (I can never ask for help; never have been able to even with small things, let alone big ones!). But I'm happy doing what I'm doing, and sometimes it is a good thing to learn when to quit.
        • Re: change of plan

          Fri, October 2, 2009 - 12:26 AM
          hi Peta - great choice.. i think your studies would be fascinating, likely leading you to a very interesting field. there's something about 'deviant' studies i always found captivating - have considered being a forensic psychiatrist myself.. even an art therapist in a prison.

          and i get what you mean about choosing a more reliable career.. i would love to be a writer even a poet with all my heart but, well.. not yet. i am working to perfect a small body of work that i will consider submitting to publishing houses.. but only when i'm confident it's just right.

          i imagine some intro law subjects might be somewhat dull, i can appreciate that :D but i imagine i'll immerse myself into my studies so much to prepare for my career that i won't give that a second thought.. if that's what i go for i think abandoning architecture will give me a lot of drive to excel.. i have a really good feeling about Law.
  • Re: change of plan

    Mon, September 28, 2009 - 11:22 AM
    How confident are you that you have INTJ preferences? What is your confidence based on?

    -Vicky Jo :-)
    • Re: change of plan

      Tue, September 29, 2009 - 4:30 PM
      so confident that i'm in the INTJ tribe :D
      • Re: change of plan

        Wed, September 30, 2009 - 9:45 AM
        That particular degree of "confidence" is meaningless and you know it. *Anybody* can join any tribe -- it doesn't confer a pedigree. Moreover, from the perspective of a professional type practitioner, you wouldn't believe how many INFJs, INFPs, INTPs, and (yes) ENFPs and even ESFPs are attracted to INTJ lists because they have frankly been mis-typed on the various assessments.

        Personally, I wouldn't DARE to address your question until I had a conversation about your confidence level, because any advice I might share is soo dependent on your type pattern. For instance, I hear you lack interest in completing a line of study you've started, and now you're thinking of jumping ship and studying something else again. Why? Because it interests you. I don't have any problem with that, but I notice
        a) it's rare for an INTJ to ask for such kind of advice (they're the most "intellectually independent" of all the types);
        b) it's unusual for an INTJ to even have that struggle, because they're so inclined to see things through to the end.
        So either something odd is going on to cause an INTJ to even have such a "crisis," or else the pattern I'm seeing is more like ENFP, which doesn't care much about completion, and is renowned for jumping ship and looking for the next interesting thing. In which case, that's a problem that's not likely to be "solved" with glib advice.
        So you see, even though I'm a certified Job and Career Development Coach, I realize there's no amount of advice that would be helpful if the type pattern hasn't been accurately identified -- it will simply bounce off and fall flat if there's nothing for it to stick through. (If you have a "pattern" of not completing things, then that's a whole life pattern, not a minor study challenge, and it would need to be addressed in a different way).

        For the record, INTJs are "compulsive explainers" -- they LOVE to tell you why, and because, and share their rationales. So your very reticence to share the *reasons* for your confidence in your type pattern is also a bit, um, fishy. So let's try it again under new circumstances: how did you discover your type pattern? What gives you confidence in it?

        -Vicky Jo
        • Re: change of plan

          Wed, September 30, 2009 - 6:07 PM
          well it was easy to see you were questioning my INTJness, and so i wasn't too interested in going down that path (again).. i wasn't particularly looking for advice either. if you look back you will see what i really wanted to know was "have you ever done something like this? would you push through the lull or just jump ship?"

          the reason i ask is because it is bothering me very much to consider not completing this degree. particularly when i feel so passionate about architecture. i just don't know what's wrong!!?

          anyway, to be frank, i tested as ENFP all through childhood to adolescence (at the Xavier Institute for Higher Learning).. however the 10 years since my late teens i've tested as INTJ (with a careers consultant).

          p.s. do INTJS "compulsively explain" when they think it's a waste of time or effort? really?
          p.p.s. is there something about INTJ that draws fanatics, or are you honestly hoping to give me (career) guidance here?
          • Re: change of plan

            Wed, September 30, 2009 - 10:41 PM
            well I don't know you and you don't know me -- all we have to go by are some letters on a website somewhere and what we read between the lines.

            What I saw between the lines on my end was that I was probably looking at someone with ENFP preferences who's trying really really hard to fit in and "falsify" their type by acting INTJ-like, possibly to the point of self-deception.

            And why would anyone do that? Heck, why *wouldn't* anyone do that? Our culture is fanatical about extraverted Thinking, and the INTJ pattern is oh-so-groovy (as we all know). And if my hypothesis is correct, then my heart goes out to you -- because I know you have taken a beating most of your life for being who you are.

            I wonder what kinds of suggestions you might get if you took your question to the ENFP tribe, or onto the ENFP message boards -- I wonder what insights they might share with you (regardless of the type pattern you decide fits you ultimately). ENFPs are the champions of possibility, after all! I wonder if I could invite you to try such an experiment, just for the heck of it. Who knows what you might discover?

            What I do know is this: "Normal is that which functions in accord with its design." -D. King
            In other words, if you are trying to force yourself to be something you're not, it will only make you miserable and you'll fail anyway. :-(

            The advice I would ladle out to you is to suggest you do a values identification search, probably with an experienced facilitator, so that you have something intrinsic to your being to navigate by. You need something like a North Star that will give you guidance and direction regardless of what you study or which career you choose.

            There are two kinds of values mining a person can do -- one is for career values, and one is for overall values. Frankly, I notice tremendous overlap between the two, and can often pick out someone's type pattern after they do the little Career Values assessment I offer (not on its own, of course, but combined with a follow-up interview -- type usually jumps out pretty blatantly during that conversation).

            What I know is that people who prefer introverted Feeling and extraverted Thinking frequently enter the field of law because it suits their values around Justice. And for some folks, that is adequate. And for others, it is not. I believe they did a study some time back that showed lawyers were the most miserable of all in their occupations! And yet the notion persists that becoming a lawyer is a fast-track to success, so I would say to you caveat emptor.

            Now, I work as a life coach, and that field is flooded with ENFPs (who I confess to being jealous of, because they can motivate and support their clients like nobody's business). Not surprisingly, I've even met a few lawyers who have converted into coaches, and are now putting their substantial skills to work on behalf of mediation, victim's rights, and similar areas rather than practicing law per se. It seems that after achieving some modicum of success in the culture's eyes, they could finally put that aside and devote themselves to the work that really made their heart sing.

            If my hunch is right, and you really do have ENFP preferences (and I mean innately, not falsified of course), then you must come to terms with being the kind of person who naturally jumps ship -- not because you're afraid of drowning, but simply because your iNtuition is like that. Of COURSE it makes sense to complete the degree you have. Of COURSE you want that investment to pay off, and to have the sheepskin and the ceremony and the notch on your belt. Of COURSE. Everyone expects it of you. And... when extraverted iNtuiting is your best gift, you won't be able to force yourself to do anything that doesn't align with your values (and for the record, few of us can!). So mining your values and embracing them fully is the best way to come to terms with yourself. It is the judging process that ENFPs were given to balance their perceiving process, so it's a good idea to get familiar and comfortable with it. Heck, even if I'm wrong and you really have INTJ preferences, it's still a good idea, because it's the tertiary process for INTJs and influencing them as well. (Okay, I confess: I think most everybody would benefit from doing a values identification for themselves – because that's where everyone's personal power IS.) :-)

            I don't know if these thoughts help you, support you, or give you any insight. I hope they do. It seems evident that you are a brilliant, hardworking person who deserves to be successful. From my end, I believe you will achieve it faster through being who you are and doing the work you were placed on the planet to do than by any other means. And my intention in this exchange is to shine a light on that truth for you.

            Best wishes,
            -Vicky Jo :-)
            • Re: change of plan

              Wed, September 30, 2009 - 11:12 PM
              i really don't understand what you mean by the INTJ pattern being "oh-so-groovy" - i certainly don't idolise INTJness. but there really is little doubt i have outgrown my ENFPness - this careers consultant has in fact known me all my life. certainly i have plenty ENFPness to share in the right circumstances though and it makes me so happy to share that side of me.. but when it comes to the crunch i am a whole other creature.

              what you mentioned about some peoples' motivations for pursuing Law are exactly what i'm talking about.. it would be very satisfying :D

              i appreciate the time you have put into your response Vicky Jo, but i'm sure you're a little premature in (un)typing me.. all i've said is i'm having trouble considering swapping degrees! anything else giving you the strong impression i should seriously reconsider my type? i am open to it but i'm just not convinced i ought to. and again, thank you for the suggestion!! i may post this query over at an ENFP tribe and see what it brings to the table.
              • Re: change of plan

                Thu, October 1, 2009 - 12:09 PM
                As we've already established, we don't know each other except through little black dots on a website here....

                and here's what I know: people's type doesn't change. People's REPORTED type may change (it does all the time!) -- which is why I don't rely on assessment results to get to best-fit type. However, type itself is an innate pattern -- a template, if you will -- for personality development. Compare it to an acorn. You will never get a pine tree out of an acorn. Pinecones don't give you oak trees, and acorns don't give you pine trees. And people don't change type.

                I can't say for certain what type you are AND, as you know, from the very first posting, I got a hunch that something didn't add up. Call it 14 years of experience; call it a background in multiple models; call it being married to another type expert with 15 years of experience with INTJ prefs who's spent a lot of time online -- it doesn't matter to me. All I know is that something didn't add up -- and I gave my two reasons already for what didn't add up.

                Let me review those for you now and provide a little extra depth.

                If you knew me or my husband in person, you would know that one of my ongoing frustrations with him is that he *never* asks for help. He will spend 3 days looking for something online before he'll ask me about it. If he can't find the scissors, he'll tear the house apart before he'll break down and ask me if I know where they are. It's the craziest thing I've ever seen. Sure, everybody wants to be self-reliant -- and INTJs are self-reliant to a FAULT.

                Furthermore, I'm not his first marriage. He spent 15 YEARS in his previous marriage because he was determined to make it work, even when it was so obviously not working. In fact, he admits he knew it wasn't going to work within the first few DAYS of actually getting married. Nevertheless, he hung in there for 15 YEARS -- right up until she divorced HIM, as it happens. So I know a little something about INTJ stick-to-it-iveness. They do not "jump ship" readily.

                Now that's how those characteristics are typically played out in his life -- obviously it's going to be different from INTJ to INTJ. Nevertheless, I know that INTJs are ALL "intellectually independent" (hate to ask for help); and that INTJs are ALL "J's" to a fault. That doesn't make anybody good or bad or right or wrong; it's just part of the pattern of that type.

                From the flimsy evidence of your black dots on this website, you do not appear to demonstrate those patterns. FWIW.

                What I make of that is a different type pattern probably suits you better than INTJ does. And now *you* get to make of it whatever you will. What's at stake is the relevance of type. If you are mis-typed, then there's no amount of type knowledge or awareness that will truly be helpful to you as you make decisions going forward. You might as well rely on an eight-ball fortune-teller -- you will gain an equivalent amount of insight. On the other hand, I probably work with type so dramatically differently than most people do that you wouldn't even recognize it. So you have no idea what you're missing (most people don't).

                Good luck polling the ENFP boards. I hope you get some good advice.

                -Vicky Jo :-)
                • Re: change of plan

                  Thu, October 1, 2009 - 1:26 PM
                  >>If you knew me or my husband in person, you would know that one of my ongoing frustrations with him is that he *never* asks for help. He will spend 3 days looking for something online before he'll ask me about it. If he can't find the scissors, he'll tear the house apart before he'll break down and ask me if I know where they are. It's the craziest thing I've ever seen.<<

                  Lol, this made me laugh. Well, it's nice to know I'm not the only one who "can't" ask for help. :)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: change of plan

                    Thu, October 1, 2009 - 2:40 PM
                    LOL. You know, tearing the house down before asking for help doesn't sound all that crazy to me... I do it all the time, but I also put everything back once I find it.
                    • Re: change of plan

                      Sun, October 4, 2009 - 3:52 PM
                      LOL! I'm just the same, except I put things back even straighter than they were before I uprooted everything.
                      • Re: change of plan

                        Sun, October 4, 2009 - 7:04 PM
                        hehe.. reminds me of some (crazy) time in Goa a couple of years ago - my bf was driving me mad and i went completely berserk; trashing my belongings - snapping CDs and my D&G reading glasses, throwing my walkman etc.. and no sooner than i'd finished, i spent 5 minutes cleaning it all up and binning the remains..
                        he just looked at me and said, "i would have thrown you out had you not just turned around and done that - i'm impressed"
                        he would call me 'Kali' and 'Parvati' interchangeably :D
                        • Re: change of plan

                          Mon, October 5, 2009 - 5:29 AM
                          weeee i'm getting so excited about the prospect of being a lawyer! just found this site www.careerplanner.com/MB2/Per...INTJ.cfm which outlines an INTJs preferences in the work field.. and it is so fitting!!!

                          the site also suggests that MERLIN the MAGICIAN was INTJ FYI Vicky Jo ;D
                          • Re: change of plan

                            Thu, October 8, 2009 - 11:18 AM
                            I've chosen to respond on my blog and on YouTube.

                            www.typeinsights.com/blog/cl...erences/

                            I look forward to your comments.

                            -Vicky Jo :-)
                            • Re: change of plan

                              Thu, October 8, 2009 - 1:07 PM
                              omg :D

                              *i'm interested to know why you said something along the lines of "you don't know how i was getting these results" in spite of the fact that i answered you here in this thread as to how i came to know my type(s)
                              (however, it is interesting to note that type doesn't change, and i'm not sure what's going on in my case. i may not have been interviewed in highschool but it was a long test and so i'm assuming it was pretty comprehensive.. i don't even know which of the 2 systems it was based on.. maybe they never even told us. i wonder if my type never changed and i have always been INTJ or whether i'm the first ever in history to morph :D)

                              *you make assumptions about the way i think of mermaids

                              *i disagree that i personalised this.. i thought you remembered my being here before, as you might notice now seeing that i said "didn't want to go down this path (again)".. and i never talk with that tone you perceived i was either.. i really don't get flustered. i may have insinuated your premature assessment was rash and incompetent and far too obnoxious (i assumed being a typer or whatever it is, you would have more respect for the process involved in typing somebody).. i never said anything like "you're an idiot". but whatever the case, you were obviously shocked.. well i'm sorry to hear that. i'll try being even more careful.

                              *this thread was not a cry for help. i don't want advice from anybody about pursuing this degree - i have enough friends and family already on my case about it - it's not up for discussion. i really wish i could say the same about all this BS.. it goes against my entire being to be dragging this on *in this manner*.. i really don't understand/appreciate your approach is all :/
                              (i may do a heck of a lot of independent research, but i am forever asking questions here on tribe as well.. and?)

                              i think i've covered it. i appreciate the effort you both went to, but it was entirely irrelevant and biased.

                              please let me know if you feel there is a good reason to continue on with this discussion ok?

                              (and btw you look much lovelier on video than in your avatar, and your husband seems cool. it was just the biased rubbish that ruined the video for me ;D that's not to say you weren't describing INTJ characteristics, but you manipulated the facts!)
                              • Re: change of plan

                                Thu, October 8, 2009 - 1:33 PM
                                Just out of curiosity, exactly what do you think is biased? Are they biased based on their experience? Are they biased because they think you're ENFP and not INTJ? I'm not really sure why you think this is biased, and how biased it is. As human beings, all of us are subjected to a certain level of bias, that I'll give, but where are they wrong?

                                To be honest though, that thread about Vicky Jo hating you definitely caught me off-guard too, because to me, all she seemed to do is why you may rethink your type because you don't seem like the typical INTJ in the way you word things.

                                I'm no expert, and it doesn't matter to me whether you're an INTJ or an ENFP, but I'm still glad you two got a bit personal because I got to watch a video differentiating an NT behavior from NF, so thanks.
                                • Re: change of plan

                                  Fri, October 9, 2009 - 2:09 AM
                                  Hikaruchin - she hates me? i said nothing of the sort.. right?

                                  biased and inaccurate, because there is a clear agenda that has them manipulating the substance of the 2 threads in question, of course.. what else?

                                  and well you're welcome..
                                  • Re: change of plan

                                    Fri, October 9, 2009 - 9:17 AM
                                    No, you didn't actually say hate; I think I just translated "she has a problem with me..." post into "she hates me" post. It read very emotionally in my mind.

                                    I don't know what other thread you're referring to; as far as I know, she only mentioned on thread in the video, and that would be this one. Maybe you can provide a link to the other one.

                                    I'd still like a reason as to why you think it's biased and inaccurate; just repeating it isn't enough (I apologize if I'm being annoying) to prove exactly why you think they have an agenda to manipulate the substance. I merely think it's their way of interpretation; as type specialists, it probably comes natural to them that they would analyze the wording, the expressions, the specific usage of words, punctuation, and the image the post tries or may create in others' minds.

                                    You may not intend your post to be "emotional" or "ENFP-ish", but maybe it's portrayed in such a manner that calls out "ENFP". I definitely thought you wanted people's opinion on your career choice when you posted this. That probably is also shaded by my environment, but in an impersonal space like the internet, there is no way that I can see your expressions or tone of your voice when you type those words, so there is almost no choice but for me to think in terms of how I would "sound like," you know?

                                    Of course, all humans come with a set of bias based on their culture and environment, so they may color the thread/post in a way most common to their environment. I'm not saying she's right about your type just because she has experience, and she read your post and thought this was "not INTJ behavior" based on that experience, but I don't see how she warrants the claim of bias and inaccuracy.
                                    • Re: change of plan

                                      Fri, October 9, 2009 - 6:11 PM
                                      well that's a curious interpretation :D no matter, i appreciate things get lost in translation (particularly on the net where context can be lost without tone) but do you mind my asking what language(s) you spoke at home growing up?

                                      you're asking for *a* reason, when really i have already given a number.. look back at the post before my last, in direct response to Vicky Jo's callow exposition video; i've introduced more than one example of their obscuring the facts - like their insinuating that i likely came about my type by way of a dubious test (*in spite* of this having already been established in the thread).. and that i have an irrational penchant for the mermaid (a total assumption on their part, as they've never even bothered to ask how i value mermaids, or astrology, or poetry etc etc..).. to name a couple. you can work out the rest by using the posts as a source..

                                      then based on conclusions reached by jumping the gun, they formed a completely impaired hypothesis. is this making any sense to you yet Hikaruchin?

                                      It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.
                                      Joseph Joubert

                                      i will say however that i will grant that my first post could have been interpreted as an appeal.. i am usually pretty careful in choosing my words and i feel like such a schmuck when they fall below par.. and i realise i meant to/should have said "would you push through A lull" rather than "THE lull" which likely gave the impression i was asking for a comment on *my* situation.. when, really, the introduction to the post (about my degree(s)) was supposed to serve as an example only. the crux of the post was the questions that followed.. an attempt to get a dialogue happening about the INTJs' "stick with it"ness.. about dreams deferred.. and probably a whole other bunch of implicit expectations that i'm disappointed have been missed by you and Vicky Jo both. and it's a shame i did end up giving into this discussion.. i knew it would thoroughly taint the concept i was hoping to explore with like-minded people.. but whatever we're here now aren't we.. :/

                                      anyway i'm still hopeful about this thread being salvageable (so maybe we could get back to the topic - if, however, my INTJness is still the hot topic, we're going to have to start finding common ground if you would like some reciprocity.. i.e. we'll need to *establish* a few things).. if not, well there will be plenty more where that came from ;D

                                      i would be interested in some input from other members of the tribe - i'm not looking for back-up, only some 'objective' perspectives on all this. don't be shy folks :D if, however, you think this all looks a little too candid for your tastes.. well, i concur.
                                      and if you have anything to say about the intended topic, even better!

                                      (Vicky Jo i understand i can have a real bite to my language when i choose.. and your behaviour has been on the receiving end of a couple of comments that must be a tad insulting - you know ones that use words like callow for e.g. - but i'm really only giving you a taste of your own medicine. you're wielding your training/skills as a weapon, and so i'm just, well whatever i'm doing, i really don't want you to take it to heart. i'm doing my best not to do the same! please understand me ;D i would like to (re)-establish some mutual respect. okay?)
                                      • Re: change of plan

                                        Fri, October 9, 2009 - 9:29 PM
                                        Well, I spoke English and Korean at home. But I don't think my background of speaking a different language is the reason for my generalization, but the tone of the post itself.

                                        Yeah, I'm literally asking for one reason, because I didn't think that the previous reasons you gave were really that convincing. They all just sounded like defensive accusations to me. As the one claiming that they're very biased and all that, you have the burden of proof, and from what I've read in terms of the post, your accusations aren't really supported by some concrete evidence, just that the other side is biased because they think, etc. (which is what you're claiming that they're also doing, and I do think to some extent that they are trying to get in your brain without knowing you, but you're also doing the same according to your reasonings here). They also have the burden of proof to show why you would be an ENFP and not INTJ, and maybe they haven't fully proved their burden either.

                                        "N" types are irrational types, you know. The fact that "N" types are generally interested in mythological creatures is not anything new; the difference is how they approach their interest of mythological creatures; they never questioned your "N", just the "T". And you're right; they shouldn't assume that just because you think mermaids are cool doesn't make you an NF, but maybe you could have explained how you found mermaids interesting so they know how your mind works and back off a little if they thought they were wrong.

                                        So you have no evidence of this encounter before? I thought she said it was impossible for you to be an ENFP on another post; I'm just wondering because I find her information interesting, so I wanted to see her argument on ENFP a little more.

                                        And I COMPLETELY AGREE with that quote; but to debate, you need to take an initial stance, even if you will change that opinion; I don't think they settled the question just because they're taking the stance that you're not an INTJ; it's a position, of which you're at the other end of. After all, there's a difference between plain discussion and debate, right?

                                        I would say the process you just described (choosing words carefully, etc.) is more of an introverted thinking function than extroverted thinking function, which is more of the NTP's forte than NTJ's.

                                        I believe I definitely posted about "stick with it" ness throughout the whole thread here; I told you I almost never change my decisions once I make it, and I stick with it no matter what. That's why I am uncomfortable with your "change of the mind" so much, I think. It goes against what I would consider as an INTJ (or any J function) behavior, not the guilt, but the action you took to change instead of stick with your architecture degree, and I thought I made myself pretty clear before I jumped on this aspect of the thread; I also disagree that you somehow "lost" your original discussion just because you focused a little more attention on this aspect of the thread because this shows how stubborn we all are, really. It's not really guilt that keeps an INTJ focused on one thing, I think but the vision that we'll succeed in this field and are willing to go through all the parts we don't like to reach that goal. Stopping in the middle seems like a failure of that vision; we're not competent enough to go through with it now, so we have to defer it. If the opportunity is there to complete the vision, then I think it's in one's best interest to complete it, not be set off by some aspect of it I hate.

                                        For example, I hated a lot of my first year law classes because they made me realize how naive I was about what the law entailed, and there was a point in time when I seriously doubted my vision for the first time (after nearly 20 years of being focused on being in a legal career), even as far as showing shadow-ESFP behaviors and thought process, even making me think whether this was the right career choice, whether I was going to fail out of law school, but I stuck with it (because I don't want to go against what I've dreamed of doing for so long), went through all the aspects that I hated, and now I'm going to graduate in a few months and take the bar exam. To me, that shows that I'm competent (and I'll be able to prove my competency in law once I pass the bar). That's why it's very very hard for me to understand what you're doing right now. I've never done the whole "change the major" thing in college because I was so focused on my vision, and saw no need to seek alternatives, which allowed me to finish college pretty quickly and move on to my next objective, perhaps to my detriment as I didn't seek to improve my social skills or any other skills one learns in college.

                                        I also told you that I would never wait to do something I loved because of how life's circumstances change, but I guess you didn't really care for all that to dismiss it so lightly. I only jumped on this because you seemed a lot more responsive to it than on the other part of the discussion.

                                        like-minded? What do you mean by that? From my experience on INTJ forum, I can tell you that INTJ's are not like-minded (which, assuming you are one, is also evidenced here) about a lot of things, which makes the debate very very interesting. Being an INTJ doesn't mean we all are like-minded. All that it means is we all use introverted intuition and extroverted thinking to make determinations and judgment calls. I think culture and other factors really determine how you use those two primary functions (as well as the other 6) to come up with an answer. As there are thousands of cultures out there, like-mindedness is very difficult to achieve, I would argue.

                                        I'm a little frustrated that you're calling for objective opinions from others and consider the opinions that question your motive as subjective; all opinions are subjective, based on experiences of life; no person survives in a vacuum of space to develop their functions.

                                        As far as it being candid, that's what being a "T"-preferring person is all about, isn't it? INTJ's don't sugarcoat stuff. It's all about being candid and getting down to the bottom point. I've read worse things than this on INTJ forum, and I can definitely vouch for the fact that INTJ's have no limit for what society calls "candid". I think that's a strength... :)
                                        • Re: change of plan

                                          Fri, October 9, 2009 - 11:02 PM
                                          well i suppose i don't need to prove to myself that i'm competent. my success is guaranteed when i put my mind to something, and common even when i don't. by choosing law over architecture i am being true to myself; my integrity is far more important to me than completing a degree for the sake of completing a degree. i have my own reasons for making this choice. and it's not like i picked a new field out of a hat.. i was tossing up between law and architecture back in highschool. my 'vision' is steadfast and not contingent upon architecture (or law for that matter). these degrees only work as vehicles. surely you can fathom (for some at least there exists) a vision beyond a career.

                                          anyway, so you have the impression my reasoning is unconvincing.. and you're suggesting i come forward and delineate my attraction to mermaids if i ever hope to prove them wrong. but i won't be doing that because well i'm a little too proud. i guess it's kind of like leaving your wallet on a bench and returning to retrieve it when a random approaches you and says outright you have no right to take it, that you're a thief. i wouldn't be spending too much time debating with an ignorant (i.e. of the facts) stranger over the matter.. would you? however, if the random had come to me with the intent of confirming my ownership, i would be more than happy to oblige. Vicky Joe's approach (be it analagous with scenario 1 or 2) i suppose is subject to the observer's sensibilities. i however am confident it was akin to the first. if i wasn't, we might be easily discussing my preferences and inclinations further by now and so proving my burden as such. that discussion has now become an abstract process for me as it's become practically out of the question that i engage openly about it all here and now.

                                          >So you have no evidence of this encounter before?<
                                          i imagine that's your way of asking how to find the thread ;D it is a thread in this tribe - just look for mermaids, it should turn up.

                                          >I would say the process you just described (choosing words carefully, etc.) is more of an introverted thinking function than extroverted thinking function, which is more of the NTP's forte than NTJ's. <
                                          would you mind elaborating on this please?

                                          and you are entirely correct in saying INTJs are a diverse bunch - this thread alone made that clear to me also. but we have differing interpretations of "like-minded". i thought i'd check out the definition on dictionary.com: having a similar or identical opinion, disposition, and found it to seemingly include both our interpretations.. yours being the former, mine being the latter.. naturally it's not totally cut and dry, there's bound to be some overlap.

                                          and i certainly didn't mean to insinuate you couldn't be objective. i meant to refer to those *outside* the discussion. but on second thought that doesn't neccessarily make them more qualified to judge the situation. in fact your last post has me at last judging you as more rational than before. i still think you're not being as objective as i'd hoped.. you're premature in focusing on the nuts and bolts before establishing more general precepts.. IMO. but as we both know, it is feasible for us to have differing MO's.

                                          i thought some might consider the discussion and video a little too contentious to comment on is all?

                                          the number of times there has been a misinterpretation of words on this thread alone might make you think about the strategical value of choosing one's words with utmost care, no?
                                          • Re: change of plan

                                            Sat, October 10, 2009 - 10:07 AM
                                            If what you claim is true, then you should have succeeded in finishing that degree in Architecture because you told everyone here that you actually did like architecture, just not the technical parts of it which was turning you off. In fact, you would have been successful in both areas and not have to give up on one or the other (and complete them sequentially). Of course degrees are not the end to all means but means to an end; but it is a tool that one necessarily requires to enter that specific career (unless one prefers flipping burgers for a living, in which case, I don't think they'd need a degree for that). I am not talking about any other vision than that at the moment, since it is the subject of discussion. I understand now that those two had more even weight than when we initially started this discussion, but none of those details really matter when it comes to "deferring dreams." The fact is, deferring is unnecessary because there would have been another plan to see it through to completion. We J's are all about planning from plan A to plan Z to finish what we've started, right?

                                            By competent, I meant it as some sort of skill or knowledge to something successfully, not that "I can do something." type of manner.

                                            By my example, I am not telling you that I finished a degree just for the sake of it, but I stuck by all the difficult parts because my vision kept me there (to me, my integrity is kept when I can prove that I am competent in what I decide to do even if that means finishing what I've started on time), and because I knew how illogical it would me to just drop everything in the middle of it and turn 180 to another degree.

                                            As far as I know, to NT's it's all about competency; knowing what they're interested in to be confident in their area of expertise.

                                            ... what does pride have to do with providing evidence to bear your burden of proof? It is merely that you are standing your ground in a debate; whatever the approach may be, it's reasonable to expect evidence both affirming your stance and negating theirs. I'm not saying you should tell everyone here that "you like mermaids, because..." but your refusal to provide any counter-means only affirms theirs because of lack of evidence.

                                            And your example about the wallet also troubles me. So it's fine to you if you don't get your wallet back just because someone called you a thief because you have your pride to worry about? Isn't it more reasonable not to denounce them and move on, but to say, "hey, open the walllet and look at the id; that's clearly mine"? Are you really just going to leave that wallet there and go back just because the person who is standing between you and the wallet is hostile? That doesn't make much sense to me unless you don't have anything in that wallet that you value. Either way (1 or 2), that wallet is mine, and it doesn't matter that the person is being mean or nice; I need to get it back and it would be more reasonable to try to convince them, to prove that you're right but using your words in a way the other party can understand. Lawyers can be very hostile especially in courtrooms; but just because the other party's being an asshole doesn't mean you can just say "oh hey, you're an asshole and calling my client a liar, but I have my pride to worry about, so I won't respond."

                                            here's a good site that explains the functions: www.cognitiveprocesses.com/intr....html

                                            I think my explanation encompasses both definitions. Even if everyone here indeed practices the same Ni and Te functions (the two functions that INTJ's are the best at preferring, supposedly), culture and environment in which they come from will make a difference in how they approach and solve the problem. Like I said earlier; no one lives in a vacuum; besides, by posting in the INTJ forum, didn't you already assume that all of us here had the same disposition? No ideas are produced in a vacuum; everything will be colored by the background and culture one comes from; even if we're all INTJ's here on this forum, because we're not all from the same culture, our Ni and Te functions will be developed differently because different information are fed into the two processes (and other 6, but I'm only focusing on those two).

                                            I don't think I ever said I was being objective nor did I really ever promise you that I would be objective, just that no one on this planet is objective. Everyone is subjective because every opinion, no matter how confident we are of them as being objective will have shades of our own emotions and life experiences. You're not objective either; no one is; that's why we have all these misunderstandings here since we're all interpreting everything based on our set of principles and guidelines shaped by our experiences.

                                            Maybe they just don't care about the video or the discussion because it doesn't apply to them. Like I said, the content itself both on the discussion and video is not what most people would consider candid, but just informational. On the other hand, some may be in denial (because INTJ is the mastermind, a lot of people may be attracted simply to that title, including me, but I am continuously taking in more information to either affirm or deny that I am an INTJ, and so far, I'm still not too sure of my type) and this discussion hits too close to home. There is some sort of pride that people associate with being a certain type (I see this a lot in INTJ forum as well, where a lot of people bash "Sensor" types as being stupid or NF's as being too emotional), and anyone questioning their type (unless the one being questioned is willing to explore) will be shunned. I thought INTJ types were the types that annoyed the other party with too much explanation when it came to things they were confident about, not shunning the other party... that sounds well, childish....

                                            Personally, I think Vicky Jo was offended by that post, and even if you say it now that you didn't mean it to sound hostile, for her to go as far as making a video, she must have thought it warranted it. Just like you thought she was being hostile, so did she.

                                            I don't think choosing words is as important per se, as describing and explaining them in the context you want them to be understood. Even using words "carefully picked out" cannot guarantee that one will identify it in a way you want them to anyways. I honestly think you carefully picked out the words to mean what you meant, but it's useless if the other party doesn't understand the meaning of the words within the context of your meaning.

                                            Arguing nuts and bolts? I don't really see that. You think we need to establish some grounds; what kind of ground do you want to set this discussion on? I believe you and I are discussing all of this to come to some sort of common ground; how else are we to establish certain grounds as acceptable and unacceptable? Just accept generalities as being inherently correct and move on? What set of generalities do we have to use as a basis? Why are they preferable?
                                            • Re: change of plan

                                              Sat, October 10, 2009 - 12:54 PM
                                              i should have succeeded in finishing that degree, even though i was losing interest, and recognising my mind-set (for now at least) is incompatible with the fundamental processes inherent to architectural design? in other words.. even though i wasn't committed? no way! i have better things to do than compromise my integrity, and my time is valuable. as for completing them sequentially: i would only recently have completed my architecture degree had i knuckled down as soon as i'd completed highschool. however, i was out of school 2 years before i decided to go to uni.. and my degree wasn't really a priority until these last 3 years - i've been otherwise preoccupied.. with my 'vision'. our evaluations of this abstract vision are divergent; your vision is dependent upon your degree, while my degree is dependent on my vision. to be frank (and unfortunately somewhat obscure) there are a lot of degrees/careers that could satisfy my vision. you should see me in an ice cream shop.. let alone trying to get strategic about my career! it's a freakin maze! but funnily enough, whether i think i'm on track or not, it always turns out in my favour. by that i mean i have no regrets.. i learn valuable things in everything i do. even the random humanities subjects i whimsically (still wholeheartedly and intuitively) picked up along the way have turned out to be totally indispensable. i thank my lucky stars. i was raised to be far from conventional, and i have my own way of going about things. to a stranger it may seem as though i have no focus, but i compulsively conceptualise. everything is everything. nothing goes to waste.

                                              now i totally understand you would never consider doing a 180 degree turn (even if things were frustrating).. and i'm assuming it is because your goal would be directly ahead of you.. with just obstacles in the way. and that is because you are conclusive about your plan of attack. me, i don't work like that is all. i like to have a finger in every pie. like any INTJ who wants to rule the world ;D and just because i have options, that doesn't mean i give up when the going gets tough. i'm no fair weather friend.
                                              i also agree with your idea of competence. i look forward to specialising. being ahead of the curve, even, if possible.

                                              my pride came into play when i was hustled into a corner by Vicky Jo (and you to a degree) at the first opportunity. i found it offensive.
                                              >but your refusal to provide any counter-means only affirms theirs because of lack of evidence. <
                                              now that is just a ludicrous judgment call. it would only affirm their stance if you being the judge were prepared to take them on their word. i mean, on the internet, couldn't what Vicky Jo did be called trolling or flaming? are you saying that i can turn around here and call you a loser.. and if you don't stand up for yourself, my case/accusation is only fortified? is that honestly a precept in Law??? (i mean okay i understand if person A assaulted person B and they didn't report them.. the offence would be negligible.. is that of any relevance to what you're suggesting?)
                                              and i'm sorry but you misinterpreted the wallet analogy (and looking back there is room for misinterpretation, my bad). i certainly got the wallet back. i just didn't bother hanging around to argue with the misinformed random dude.
                                              the difference between this forum and a courtroom, is that i am free to do what i want here. including being self-righteous and rude :D i'm difficult to deal with when i'm being disrespected is all. though i haven't got around to calling anyone an asshole yet..

                                              as for reviewing and reconsidering types, i'm happy to.. even though i am thoroughly comfortable where i am (as are the people in 'real life'). i am beyond a shadow of a doubt NT.. the I and the J are strong but nowhere near as pronounced, giving way to E in a lot of contexts.
                                              btw i'm curious; does your I work to your advantage in Law or is it a hindrance? like are you comfortable with public speaking? dealing with clients even..

                                              i'm sure Vicky Jo *was* offended - i challenged her credibility and basically said the entire approach was unsophisticated. i'm not sure what she felt that performance would achieve in this situation, but on the whole at least she did in fact make an 'informative' video. it should be plain to an intelligent observer with all the facts however that it was rife with subversive conduct. a total conspiracy more like haha

                                              >I don't think choosing words is as important per se, as describing and explaining them in the context you want them to be understood.<
                                              good point. i just try to be as concise and content-rich as possible. but that doesn't make it one of my strengths. thanks for the tip!

                                              as for establishing perimetres etc.. my first move was to delineate what i thought to be the most appropriate approach to the discussion.. one i have made clear that i believe Vicky Jo (and then you) violated. i have a hunch that my boundaries are still not so plain to see. possibly because i've been keeping you both at arm's length at the same time you are both trying to get in my front door. it's like a mexican standoff or something hehe i suppose my number 1 rule is common decency. a little respect goes a long way with me. when that affinity is maintained between parties, i imagine things can get pretty flexible indeed - and the topic can be freely and confidently explored without any negative undertones.. nuances of which i am extremely sensitive to.. and somewhat intolerant of. anyway i too am guilty of perpetuating the negativity to a degree, and will try harder not to be so reactionary - a terrible trait :/
                                              i would appreciate it if you (and Vicky Jo) would ease up. stop being so sure of yourselves that i'm not an INTJ, and concentrate rather on opening the channels of expression if it is really so important to you both that my type be evaluated. you have to admit, you have both gone to great lengths over this.. i'm sure you each have your reasons, but regardless.. we're running around in circles. what do you reckon about all that?
                                              what do you propose?

                                              n.b. yes, i can be *very* general (i at least like to believe i am also very conclusive in the meantime). if you think i've made a sweeping statement, ask me to elaborate and i'll do my best.
                                              • Re: change of plan

                                                Sat, October 10, 2009 - 3:15 PM
                                                No; I'm saying that you would have been so obsessed about your vision that you would not have thought of it as being incompatible. You would have come up with plan K to tackle all the difficult things within your major; if that failed, then that's fine, you'd move onto plan L. To a stranger, an INTJ looks like they're too focused. The words you're providing here seems to resonate with "P" behavior. They're better at changing with the ever-changing circumstances, and not be completely blinded to the reality by focusing only on the ultimate goal in the end.

                                                I believe what you described of me is the typical XNXJ behavior. Being completely focused on the goal that everything else no matter how hard is just an obstacle (maybe a bit extreme XNXJ behavior, but nonetheless, I think it's a pretty good example of the difference between NP and NJ.. or maybe not). I've never heard of an XXTJ having a finger in every pie; I think that's impossible not to mention unnecessary. INTJ only needs to really have expertise in one or two areas because everything else can be universally applied (through Ni, I believe). As far as I know, INTJ's have a very specific area of expertise (or really, anyone who prefers "J" over "P"), and that expertise is the route to world domination (most seem to believe anyways, and besides, if you want world domination, you should look to the ENTJ; INTJ's tend to be the no.2 in charge, not no.1).

                                                I don't think I'm pushing you into any corner; I wonder as to why you get these feelings. It's just a discussion about MBTI in a tribe related to MBTI. Does it feel like I'm pushing you into a corner because you happen to be the person that I'm engaged in this discussion with? What is so important about the type INTJ that you think I'm trampling upon your front door? What's so offensive? Preference type isn't life threatening to you if someone thinks you're not that type, and I don't think I've ever disrespected you, I just don't agree with your opinions... or does that count as disrespect? Are you only willing to discuss your type to the extent that they initially stand on the ground that you are INTJ? I did that initially; but this part of the discussion got more interesting.

                                                Everyone here essentially makes judgment call based on what they believe to be convincing, including you. As a third party who has no interest either way, lack of evidence by one side makes me look to the other side who seems to have evidence.

                                                Look, I don't think someone asking you about your type and how confident you are in it counts as trolling or flaming just because it's not completely pertaining to your topic of interest.

                                                If you called me a loser and provided evidence that I couldn't refute to other than saying "You're biased," then yeah, it would obviously... be affirming that indeed I would be a loser. If you called me a loser but didn't provide any evidence to support it, then everyone would know you were just flaming/trolling me. Standing up for yourself and providing evidence to the contrary are two very different things. Besides, just saying, "everything you're saying about this topic is entirely wrong because you are biased {about my type}" doesn't cut it, and I think you would know that, especially if you're going into law. As for the whole assault analogy.... where are you going with that?

                                                As far as the whole wallet analogy, but it's confusing me the more I think about it.

                                                What if he refused to give it back at all cost and continued to hurl rude comments at you? Essentially that's what may be happening if we go with your story; Vicky Jo "took your wallet" by saying you couldn't be an INTJ and she hasn't given that wallet back to you (she still hasn't said, you're right, you're an INTJ, I was wrong). So you haven't gotten your wallet back, and you're stuck. Obviously in your scenario, Vicky Jo is the hostile party. And you still haven't answered my question: How are you going to get your wallet back? Calling Vicky Jo biased and misinformed clearly isn't doing the trick.

                                                You have the choice to do whatever you want both in a forum and in a courtroom. Sure you may be charged with contempt in a courtroom should you shout out curse words, but you still have a choice to provide evidence to the contrary of whatever that hostile biased opponent may have said, but he still hurt your pride because he called your client a "liar" and provided evidence for that. What do you do?

                                                I'm not sure why you think you're being disrespected at all. I also don't see why you think there's any hostility toward you. You can be self-righteous and rude anywhere, and that's fine, but at least to me, I don't think you were engaged in either behavior. I also don't think I was being rude just because I entered this discussion with you just as I wouldn't think you were being rude for thinking I somehow tried to "enter the front door," or assuming that I had some kind of reason for entering this discussion.

                                                Being introverted does not mean one is bad at public speaking; my public speaking grades have always been excellent, and I have no problem speaking out loud in front of anyone (well, as long as I know what the heck I'm talking about). I am social when I need to be, and handling people is never a problem; I just sigh loudly when I get home and say, "geez, I'm tired."

                                                I have a pretty decent analogy for that here: comparing them to a laptop, being intraverted means that he/she is out with people, it's like having a laptop operate without the AC adapter and running on battery; being extraverted means that when he/she is out with people, it's like having a laptop operate with the AC adapter; they both function perfectly, but the intravert will need to go back to seclusion to recharge, whereas extraverts will feel that being alone is draining on their battery.

                                                Well, I must not have an intelligent bone in my body because I didn't see all these "conspiracy" that you're claiming. Do you think it's possible that you think she's "not planning anything conspiratory" with her video, just that it seems more like that to you because you know the subject they're talking about is you?

                                                Don't group me with Vicky Jo; she actually wanted to help figure your type out because she thought you were being misled (the ever so good INFJ; she's just like my INFJ friends, it's almost scary); I'm just here to debate things for the sake of debating because it's fun. I'm not sure whether you're an INTJ, INTP, ENTP, ENTJ, etc. and like I said before, it doesn't matter to me what type you are. But I do think that some of what you seem to understand in terms of typing is not entirely correct, and furthermore, I find the difference in opinion interesting as well as the obvious difference in how we process things. The difference in underlying motivation and determination is very interesting.

                                                If you don't want to talk about your type, that's fine. But above all, your original question wasn't as fun to discuss (because I mean, really, what's there to discuss, right? It's just a Yes/No type question, really if you think about it). "Yes, I changed major because..." "No, I never changed my major because...", or is that what you wanted..?

                                                I just didn't make any assumption as to your type. I thought of you as XXXX, and just poured out all my experiences (while I'm not sure whether I am INTJ, I am pretty sure of my J, even if that's the only thing I am confident about) and knowledge on the topic. It's fine if that's the way you operate, but on such impersonal space, I gain nothing by trying to enter "your house," and don't really see the need to. I'm not trying to change your life here. If you are indeed a "P"-preferring person, this activity would be more "normal" and understandable, and I'd say there was no need for you to feel any guilt for doing what you're doing but it's your claim that you're a "J" that seems to throw me off, because what you said is what I hear a lot from a lot of my "P" friends.

                                                ...And I have no clue as to what you mean by "opening a channel of expressions."

                                                What do I propose? I propose we continue this, if you don't mind; I disagree that we're going in a circle; obviously we're having a conversation on an interesting topic and there's input from both sides. But if you want to give up on the discussion at any time, that's fine too.

                                                and... the last post... isn't to me, is it? I have no clue what/who n.b. is...
                                                • Re: change of plan

                                                  Sat, October 10, 2009 - 10:10 PM
                                                  well if that's the case then there are strange forces at work here ;D OR perhaps there is something dependent (external to) of my type affecting the circumstances - imagine the possibilities, will you.. e.g. i could very well suffer from A.D.H.D. (i don't).. - to be frank, (it may already be apparent) i am not prepared to elaborate on my vision.. besides, as real as it is to me it is none the less an ambiguous one. everything i do is driven by the desire to realise it. thus far the trip has been coloured by my sincere effort to avoid settling.. which means moving onto greener pastures (a rolling stone gathers no moss). i've been on the fast track to realisation. for me that means taking as much as possible into consideration.. leaving no stone uncovered, where possible. i am only one person and that's a reality i struggle with, but in order for me to synthesise, i need to know i have covered as many bases as possible.

                                                  as for the feasibility and necessity of wanting/having a finger in every pie.. (unless you are God) i agree it is impossible and often unnecessary. but holism is intrinsic to my vision. still: as i said, "i look forward to specialising. being ahead of the curve, even, if possible." i agree that everything can be universally applied, and having expertise in one or two fields is usually ideal. so far, i have been familiarising myself with all those areas that "everything can be universally applied" to.. specialisation is (a close) secondary to me.
                                                  and being the face of any movement is not my preference. as often as i imagine my idea or plan to be the best, in group efforts i really only come forward when the underpinning logistics of that idea have been completely bypassed/missed, or there is little to no progress being made. the opportunity to make the most of something is the least i can offer to the group-mind :D

                                                  no. it seems to me i'm being pushed into a corner when you make assumptions -
                                                  >Right now, it sounds like you just want to try law school because people told you "you'd be good at it.,"<
                                                  >..you should have succeeded in finishing that degree..<
                                                  >The fact is, deferring is unnecessary because there would have been another plan to see it through to completion.<
                                                  > it's reasonable to expect evidence both affirming your stance and negating theirs<
                                                  >I thought INTJ types were the types that annoyed the other party with too much explanation when it came to things they were confident about, not shunning the other party... that sounds well, childish.... <
                                                  >No; I'm saying that you would have been so obsessed about your vision that you would not have thought of it as being incompatible. You would have come up with plan K to tackle all the difficult things within your major; if that failed, then that's fine, you'd move onto plan L.<
                                                  >I think that's impossible not to mention unnecessary.< ;D

                                                  >Are you only willing to discuss your type to the extent that they initially stand on the ground that you are INTJ?<
                                                  yeah possibly.. there's a quote i know of that goes something like "to change a thing, first you must accept it." to simplify with another analogy one aspect of what happened (with Vicky Jo primarily) in my perspective is something like this: person A walks into a bookstore and says they want to buy their Aquarian partner a book on history for their birthday, to which the shop assistant retorts, "Aquarians are future-oriented, your partner doesn't sound like an Aquarius. i doubt they are an Aquarius." do you see how absurd that would sound to person A? well, that's the way i see this.

                                                  it was not Vicky Jo asking about my type that i classify as trolling/flaming, but her patronising stance:
                                                  >our very reticence to share the *reasons* for your confidence in your type pattern is also a bit, um, fishy<
                                                  >What I saw between the lines on my end was that I was probably looking at someone with ENFP preferences who's trying really really hard to fit in and "falsify" their type by acting INTJ-like, possibly to the point of self-deception.<
                                                  >And why would anyone do that? Heck, why *wouldn't* anyone do that? Our culture is fanatical about extraverted Thinking, and the INTJ pattern is oh-so-groovy (as we all know). And if my hypothesis is correct, then my heart goes out to you -- because I know you have taken a beating most of your life for being who you are.<
                                                  >In other words, if you are trying to force yourself to be something you're not, it will only make you miserable and you'll fail anyway. :-( <
                                                  >From the flimsy evidence<

                                                  and back to the wallet.. you are still unclear. the wallet was dropped, and then retrieved by me. i qualified the stranger as misinformed and out of line, and left.

                                                  i understand your laptop analogy.. while i can (usually) sustain the 'energy' to socialise and party just fine.. i feel a lot more 'powerful' and focused after some time alone. it's like meditation or contemplation in a way i suppose.

                                                  i really was just going overboard implying it was a conspiracy.. though the project did have undertones of the sort..
                                                  "a secret plot by usually powerful Machiavellian conspirators, such as a "secret team" or "shadow government""
                                                  "Machiavellianism is, according to the OED, "the employment of cunning and duplicity in statecraft or in general conduct""

                                                  i made it very clear that i appreciated the time and effort she spent on advising me.. that was NOT the problem (daaammmmnnnn.. come on already..)

                                                  and whether you thought the topic was fun or not, it was what i started the thread for.. but it's been used as a vehicle to attack and challenge me. on the up side, even though we're at odds (which frustrates my principles) i suppose i'm getting my kicks debating too.

                                                  >If you are indeed a "P"-preferring person, this activity would be more "normal" and understandable, and I'd say there was no need for you to feel any guilt for doing what you're doing but it's your claim that you're a "J" that seems to throw me off, because what you said is what I hear a lot from a lot of my "P" friends. <
                                                  you know a lot more about the system than i do, what "activity" do you mean would be normal for P?
                                                  what did i say?

                                                  "opening the channels for expression" - getting all things pertaining to a line of thought out in the open before making any conclusions

                                                  n.b. = please note
                                                • Re: change of plan

                                                  Mon, October 12, 2009 - 2:13 AM
                                                  Hikaruchin,

                                                  Your tenacity is admirable. It's possible to observe the marvelous extraverted Thinking logic you are applying. As you're discovering, it's not effective when one person is being "illogical." At this point, God himself could come down from heaven and question whether she has INTJ preferences and she'd just call him the devil in disguise and ignore him.

                                                  "An inflated consciousness is always egocentric and conscious of nothing but its own existence. It is incapable of learning from the past, incapable of understanding contemporary events, and incapable of drawing right conclusions about the future. It is hypnotized by itself and therefore cannot be argued with. It inevitably dooms itself to calamities that must strike it dead." -C.G. Jung

                                                  Sooo many facts have been misrepresented. Despite her claims to the contrary, she's never provided any credible explanation for how she came by her type pattern. She describes taking an "extensive" test in school -- but the facts of that experience are completely lacking. Was it an MBTI, was it the KTS, the Golden, the PTI? Or the MMPI even? We have no idea what that assessment was. Then, she mentions working with a career counselor she knows well -- yet, if this career counselor is so great, why is she asking a Tribe community for support around making her career choices? The career counselor ought to be having that conversation with her. Clearly something doesn't add up right. Is this career counselor administering the MBTI to her? Or are they using a free online quiz to get those results? Is this counselor MBTI qualified? Certified? Is she a Master Practitioner? These are all specific levels of qualification for working with type, but none of those credentials are cited anywhere, no matter how often they've been requested. ANY of that information would evidence some background credibility -- yet every request is blithely ignored.

                                                  As far as misrepresenting her on my YouTube video goes, there's a lot of "reading between the lines" going on there, since at no time do I state *anything* about how she regards mermaids -- I avoided that issue very deliberately. To fault me for something I never did is pure fancy. (By the way, since you seem interested in furthering your understanding of the mental functions, extraverted iNtuiting is the cognitive process that "reads between the lines." FYI, I'm thanked in the book that goes along with that website you cited: cognitiveprocesses.com. Those authors are my colleagues. :-D)

                                                  I'm startled at her insistence that she hasn't "personalized" the conversation, and am left bewildered as to how she could possibly be defining that term in a way that absolves her from doing so. Obviously she began addressing me by name, and made a point of getting your name as well so she could personalize her comments to you. She brought up past personal history/baggage with me and included that in the thread. I could go on -- but I daresay I've amply made my point that the conversation has become entirely personalized, which is why I'm not bothering to converse with her anymore. It's a waste of my time.

                                                  Furthermore, I've no doubt that the crescendo of emotionality in the exchange has begun distressing you. Certainly the venomous tone is nearly guaranteed to prevent any INTJ from engaging in further discourse. Given that INTJs are known as "phlegmatic" while we NFs are known as "cholerics," you begin to appreciate these obvious temperamental differences. (Feel free to consult a dictionary for understanding those terms.)

                                                  The sad truth is that boatloads of people are mis-typed. One of the leading experts in the field (Dr. David Keirsey) estimates that every other person is likely mis-typed -- and this claim was made before free knock-off quizzes became widely available on the internet. In my experience, I'd say 75% is a more accurate figure. :-(

                                                  As you seem to have wisely discerned, the question on the table of whether an INTJ is well-suited to study law is not the right question -- not when an assumption underlying the question has inaccurately been made around whether the individual asking has INTJ preferences to begin with. And let's face it: an INTJ is more likely to pick up a copy of "Do What You Are" at Barnes & Noble, scan the career lists, and satisfy his/her curiosity in ten minutes instead of posing the question on Tribe (certainly not the most credible source of information that I've come across).

                                                  I notice you are linking some behaviors you are observing to J and P. You've got that right -- somewhat. The problem is that the more we talk about J and P, the more we begin talking about STJ versus NFP, and that verges onto stereotype. I find it more effective to switch models and employ a behavioral model derived from Temperament called "Interaction Styles." Using this model, we discover that INTJs are inclined to "chart the course" by planning in advance, and love to ANTICIPATE what is likely to happen. Their preference is to make well-deliberated decisions. This style is in stark contrast with those who like to "get things going." People who prefer this style want to involve and be involved. They want to be ENGAGED with others, and their preference is to make consensual decisions. So... in the case of visiting the ice cream store, a chart-the-course type is likely to know what flavor of ice cream they will have before ever leaving the house, while the get-things-going type will spontaneously enter an ice cream shop, probably try half a dozen flavors, ask the clerk (and anybody nearby -- the more the merrier) lots of questions about the different flavors, all before settling on an outcome.

                                                  I leave it to your observational powers to discern which of those styles seems to be a better match for the behaviors you've witnessed throughout this thread. And perhaps this information will go some small way toward helping you verify your own preferences as well. :-)

                                                  -Vicky Jo :-)
                • Re: change of plan

                  Fri, October 2, 2009 - 12:10 AM
                  aw Vicky Jo come on.. give it a rest please?
                  (for everyone who is clueless as to what is going on here.. Vicky Jo has a problem with me. the only other time we've interacted was when she said it was impossiblity i was INTJ as i have an interest in poetry, 'mermaids' and the 'supernatural' and 'astrology'.. even though other INTJs stepped forward and made known their interest in these things too)
                  i don't appreciate your attention and want you to leave me to interact in peace here without you constantly asking me to defend or explain my "flimsy" (i mean really where do you get off..) case.

                  i look forward to discussing more relevant matters with you.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: change of plan

                    Fri, October 2, 2009 - 9:42 AM
                    There's a wonderful joke one comedian tells. He says his girlfriend claims to be a lacto-vegetarian. He says, "Me too! In fact, I'm a porko, beefo, chickeno, fisho, vegetarian!"

                    I believe my point is obvious.
                    • Re: change of plan

                      Tue, October 20, 2009 - 1:52 PM
                      Vicky, is there something particular that you've got for/with the ENFP type? It's not the first time you throw that on people online - people whom you actually hardly know and hardly want to know.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: change of plan

                    Sun, October 4, 2009 - 4:00 PM
                    I am an INTJ, have tested as such several times. I write poetry often, and I am quite intensely into astrology and tarot. I am an Aquarius, with a Leo Ascendant and a Capricorn Moon.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: change of plan

                    Sun, October 4, 2009 - 5:03 PM
                    I don't think types necessarily determines what one decides as hobby where if one is a certain type, there is no way they can like these things because it's not what a typical type with such preference would enjoy.

                    I once took interest in mermaids, supernatural, and I am currently studying several systems of astrology as a hobby as well, although I'm not entirely sure as to my "belief" in them. To me, astrology may have something to do with how a person thinks and operates if the entire system is taken into account rather than "just the sun sign" which is what most people tend to do. I also can't ignore the seemingly universality of astrology globally; while the representation and method is different, they all work in a very similar manner. But I do think it's completely irrational to think that human behavior is impacted by the time of the year we're born in, so I have an incessant urge to explain to anyone who'd listen, why I think there's some validity in astrology (sort of like soft science, which psychology is also included in).

                    Vicky Jo also asked me as to how confident I was with my type, but I wasn't as confident about being an INTJ as you were, and she provided several links that made it more clear to me on my confidence of my preference... I guess it may be more annoying to someone who is confident of her/his preference, but I really don't think she means any harm.
                    • Re: change of plan

                      Tue, October 20, 2009 - 1:56 PM
                      Of course she means no harm (lol :), but what she's doing is useless - especially in an INTJ tribe. I call that waste of time and energy. It would be justified only provided that she had some underlying cognitive purposes, which I find rather unlikely.
  • Informational interviews

    Wed, September 30, 2009 - 6:59 AM
    Back when I was looking for work, early 1980s the conventional wisdom was, and I still think is,
    to conduct informational interviews (not looking for a job) with people in a field you are interested in, and
    ask them what they like about it, or don't like, how they got started, anybody else you should talk to,
    etc. Even high-powered people
    like to talk about their work to someone who is interested, and they are often the same people you might contact later about work if you decide to go there.

Recent topics in "INTJ Personalities"

Topic Author Replies Last Post
Intj and crushes Lilly 10 Yesterday, 11:24 PM
INTJs and people testing ashley 57 December 2, 2009
Is there truly any trend in compatibility between types? Peta 14 November 30, 2009
INTJ's and INFJ's. Emily A. 4 November 22, 2009