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I'm pretty sure this is an INTJ thing. Anybody else have particular difficulty with emotional understanding of what a wedding accomplishes? I mean, if couple's still together after a few decades, friends and family will eventually catch on that the relationship has a certain stability and consistency about it. Why bother with the invitations and the dress and all that weird hoopla? It strikes me as particularly odd that people would think it makes sense to take "till death do us part" vows when such a high percentage of marriages end well before anybody bothers to die. So it's kind of like standing up before your community and knowing you might or might not be lying, but you do it anyway, and then all of the people who also know you may or may not be lying clap, and there are many pictures.
Okay, I'm being kind of goofy, but, uh, just wondering if this one stumps other INTJ's.
BTW, I am generally very good to my friends who are getting married. Had a gaggle of the gals here earlier this week, working on friend Anna's wedding invitations. Even made fresh mango lassis for us. Still didn't get it, exactly, why the muggles care so much about the pennmanship on the wedding invites, but I love her, so I did my best.
Okay, I'm being kind of goofy, but, uh, just wondering if this one stumps other INTJ's.
BTW, I am generally very good to my friends who are getting married. Had a gaggle of the gals here earlier this week, working on friend Anna's wedding invitations. Even made fresh mango lassis for us. Still didn't get it, exactly, why the muggles care so much about the pennmanship on the wedding invites, but I love her, so I did my best.
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Fri, August 26, 2005 - 12:21 AMI do think that wedding are basicly an excuse in life to do a few of those "once in a lifetime" things. While it is more common for there to be second marriages few people don't do an elaborate second wedding. The whole point is you don't do these extravagent things for a wedding party you will never be able to find a compelling reason to do them for any other time in life.
As an INTJ it does boggle me why people choose the wedding as the most appropiate time for this? Maybe I'd prefer to send engraved invitations to my 50th birthday Party, get madeover and dressed in snazzy clothes, hire a band, buy a cake large enougth that can actually hold fifty of those candles without melting or instanaeously combusting and going off to the vacation of a lifetime afterwards. -
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Mon, May 8, 2006 - 6:14 AM< I do think that wedding are basicly an excuse in life to do a few of those "once in a lifetime" things.>
Like making your girlfriends wear Seafoam Green in public?
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Mon, May 15, 2006 - 11:31 AMI do the things I like every day, not sure why people need to pick once in a lifetime occasions to do something they think they will enjoy.
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Fri, August 26, 2005 - 8:07 AMChanita,
for me, i wouldn't stop at weddings: i find most "ceremonies of custom" curious, odd, and often downright wasteful. Of course, i know from years of being hit in the face with comments about my "INTJ-ishness" characteristics that the vast number of people who have taken the MBTI are not INTJ (blessing or curse, we are a small minority . . .) and consider me cold and aloof; as to mating customs, i agree: longevity speaks for itself; however, society wants conformity and uses laws to attain this - hence legal marriages are required for transfer of real property, access to health care benefits, insurances, blah, blah, blah . . .
others - not INTJs - tell me that ceremonies just "feel good" or "are sweet" or "warm my heart" or etc.
whether this is INTJ or cold-hearted is arguable -
either way i seem to be surrounded by aliens . . .
peace,
dk -
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Fri, August 26, 2005 - 10:56 AMOkay, getting some interesting feedback here from folks. Deamon, I'm with you on most "ceremonies of custom." Didn't get the bat mitzvah thing either, or traditional birthday parties -- how come people would want to express their love of me by shoving something gross and sugary at me and singing a song they didn't even write themselves?! (Yes, kidding. Sort of.)
But I find that the wedding constitutes a paticularly difficult challenge. It's one thing to pass on celebrating your own "special moments," another to be all INTJy about somebody else's. Especially weddings, which are so incredibly emotionally fraugh for the people having them. Friendships end over perceived wedding-related slights. I've seen it on Judge Judy many a time. Which is why I try to do my best, host the invitation addressing party, whatever.
Still, despite my best efforts, I do have that "surrounded by aliens" feeling Deamon describes. I was baffled when friend Anna said she was wondering if the women present would like to wear autumn-colored matching dresses to the wedding. Someone used the word "bridesmaid."
"We're bridesmaids?" I asked incredulously.
"Well, of course, honey," Anna said.
"But -- I don't do that kind of thing. I'm more like stealth support, you know for, like, when you hate all your real bridesmaids because they only care about their own hair and dresses and aren't paying any attention to you..." I said.
I felt inflexible, but wanted to be agreeable. I felt like you feel maybe when a kid offers you their booger or a cat offers you something small and pathetic and bloody. I mean, you percieve the child or cat's pride and that they are gifting you with something they have never considered you might find disagreeable. Part of you wants to rebuke, "NO! BAD!" The other part just wants to accept graciously, and meet the other where they're at, even if it means getting some snot or blood on your hands. Ah, what's an INTJ to do...
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, August 27, 2005 - 10:37 AMAnybody else? Anybody have no clue whatsoever what I'm talking about, because weddings are just a beautiful expression of love? -
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Fri, September 2, 2005 - 12:35 PMI love weddings.
As long as the reception is open bar.
And you show up at least 20-40 minutes after the appointed time with a bad excuse.
From the point of view of exhanging a nominal gift for endless rivers of flowing booze and culinary delicacies that I'm generally too frugal to indulge in (save the rarest of circumstances) not to mention entertainment value of telling inappropriate stories to friends relatives (by that time I've been soused into ENTJ mode) ...
I say 'weddings' are a winner.
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, August 27, 2005 - 10:47 AMGetting people to come to a party to fete being in love? What's not to like? I do it as often as possible. I have found little ways to express how offensive I find traditional het weddings that include some prim lecture by the minister about one man + one woman + lifelong monogamy + kids = marriage AND NOTHING ELSE CAN, YOU SINFUL DESPICABLE WORMS.
Of course, I'm queer and poly, which makes the whole thing smell quite different.
It is also true that some years ago, I became a universal life minister while naked at a play party, after which I threw the bishop into a sling and did horrible things to him in public.
So if anybody does wish to get married, I'm available. -
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, August 27, 2005 - 11:38 AMI generally perceive a wedding/marriage as a social maneuver. For example, say you are a dentist, and all of your colleagues are married and having children (as appears to most often be the case, dentists tending to be conservative). Even if you are philosophically opposed to marriage or have a difficult time feeling "love", you're going to feel a certain amount of pressure to "fit in" with your community, and go through the motions of a typical marriage within your community with the partner who seems most appropriate for the situation. You may not be in love, even, but if you feel like you've found the best one you're going to get FOR THAT PURPOSE, why not take the plunge?
I only use the dentist example because my father is a dentist and he is on his 4th marriage right now -- & if you ask me, he didn't/doesn't act like he was/is truly in love with any of his wives, though he says all the right things and "plays the role" to get the benefits, social and otherwise, of being married.
The wedding is necessary to convince whoever they are trying to impress that the marriage is "legit", and they expect to be treated differently as husband/wife than they would be if they were just boyfriend/girlfriend. I'd also add that my father has a history of cheating on his wives (usually with much younger, naive women), so it's not as though he takes his vows all THAT seriously.
Of course, for my tastes, there's just way tooooo much BS involved in all of the above. I have no plans to get married, even if I do fall in love. Seems like there is MUCH better things to do with time, money, energy. -
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, August 27, 2005 - 1:02 PMI wouldn't be able to not mess with it: wear a kimono, add pagan rituals, hire an burner choir, serve vegan vietmanese dishes. Mess with it!
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, September 3, 2005 - 8:41 AMI am reading all this talk about emotions and logic and sociobiological bullcrap, and I'm thinking, you have no idea how this plays out in the real world.
My partner and I cannot get married because neither of us has a dick.
If my partner gets sick or injured and can't work any more, we're fucked. My job doesn't offer the same benefits to same-sex partners as it does to opposite-sex partners. I won't be able to take care of her. I worry about this every single day.
When I was married to a woman who had AIDS, there were times when I was refused access to her in the ER because we weren't "related."
If my ex-wife had died, her family could have and probably would have taken away her ashes and everything we owned together, and I would have been unable to do a thing about it.
If my partner becomes too mentally incompetent to make her own decisions (or voice them), we will both be at the mercy of her blood relatives. This would probably mean that her oldest brother, the guy who repeatedly raped her and attempted to kill her as a child, would be her legal guardian. He could lock her up in some disgusting nursing home and I wouldn't ever see her again.
We have all the legal papers available to prevent these types of things. They will come in handy if we ever run out of toilet paper and need something to wipe our asses with.
The truth is -- as I found out in the most direct possible way when I was taking care of my neurologically disabled ex -- those pieces of paper mean zero, nada, and zilch when you're facing down a hostile triage nurse, or a legal institution that thinks queers are depraved pieces of shit, or blood relatives who hated their daughter and what she was and will stop at nothing to "prevent it" after she is helpless or dead.
Fuck the ceremony. I need to take care of my family -- just like anybody else. Just like you. Marriage can be for kids, yes, but adults eventually become helpless and need protection too.
I favor a family contract that anyone can enter into -- same-sex, traditional mommy-daddy-kids, poly chain marriages, best friends, whatever. We all need to take care of our families, and it ain't the guvmint's business to define FOR ME what that means.
I also stop listening when people obviously don't "get" that there is more involved here than abstract philosophy or the wedding industry or even children. After you've had to make a scene late at night to get past a stupid fucking ER triage nurse who won't even tell you if your partner of seven years is there, then tell me what you think. -
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, September 3, 2005 - 9:43 AMI do know how this plays out in the real world.
Nowhere in your post are children EVER mentioned.
Ultimately you only get "rights" over your parnter through your mutual children. It is just as likely your blood relatives would have your best intrest as the partner you choose on your own. You really will never really know the loyalty of your partner untill you are incapacitated.
Frankly we are ALL at the mercy of our blood relatives.
This is why it is paramount to keep those relationships tenable even if they disgust you. If you die before your partner. She still is in the same situatution. If you wish to have your property distributed to those other than your blood relations; WRITE a Will. If you are concerned about your blood relations not respecting your medical wishes. Have a durable Medical Power of attorney drawn up and carry a copy in your purse at all times. I have done both because I KNOW my family will not honor my wishes.
Those medical & custody rights were designed to protect the children. Family is a meaningless concept without children. Otherwise I'll just marry myself and double my inadequate medical coverage.....
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, September 3, 2005 - 10:45 AMLiT, I love your light-hearted belief in our legal and health care system. I envy that belief. I wish it worked the way you think it does.
Unfortunately, triage nurses ignore or "can't find" DPOAs.
Unfortunately, blood relatives contest wills, living wills, and DPOAs. They can keep it in court long enough to make sure your partner dies a miserable death alone and that her remains and property are handled in a way that would cause her great anguish.
Unfortunately, even people who don't have kids encounter these situations.
I'm sorry that this is true, but it is.
I hope that you can continue to believe otherwise. I wish I could.
Of course, sometimes the papers do work. Obviously, they can't work if you don't have them. That is why my partner and I have them and why we have shared them with our families and physicians. That is why my ex-wife and I had those papers and filed them in her medical records and discussed them with her physicians and other health care providers.
I hope that when the time comes that Blue and I need those papers, triage nurses and clinic administrators and health care providers and funeral directors and our blood relatives will respect what we have discussed and planned and legally documented. I wish I didn't know how fragile that hope is. I wish I didn't know how life-or-death this all can be, children or no children. Ceremony or no ceremony.
I envy you.
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Tue, August 30, 2005 - 12:32 AMBi and poly here, so I can relate... nothing like all the Christian blather about the sanctity of marriage, when we all know how well *that* usually works out.
I also share a previous poster's dislike for "ceremonies of custom" in general. I'm moving in a few days, and tomorrow is my last day at work... I hope to hell they aren't planning a going away party or anything stupid. I told them not to. The whole idea makes me uncomfortable. I've only worked here for 3 years; we aren't friends; please just leave me alone!
I did get married a few months ago, as my primary partner needed health insurance and my job provides great benefits. We went to Vegas and did the quickest cerimony we could. To me, it doesn't change anything... we're planning to be together anyway, so if it makes things easier to make it legal, well, let's do it.
I'm a libertarian, so my solution to the whole issue of gays getting married (or poly groups of 3 or more, or whatever) is, well, NO marriages should be recognized by the government in any way, it should be just between the people involved and whatever church/god they wish to invoke. See- problem solved!
-chey -
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Tue, August 30, 2005 - 8:06 PMI have rationalized that weddings are a civil & religious acknowlogement that a family has formed. I do find it sad that people are starting to think of it instead as an arrangement between two people rather than a lifelong commiment to raise children in a healthy environment.
I do buy into the standard ministarial lectures because the math makes sense. The children who are products of relationships that adhere to the principle by the letter and in spirit are much better off than those who don't.
All the marriage perks were meant to be an incentive for people to start families and keep them together. Relationships that do not (intend to) produce children are focused on the here and now and not in the future. Thus those relationships really don't need an investment by society (perks or official sanction).
Few people nowadays actually realize the reason why those perks exist. Instead they get upset that they cant have them for their relationships.
I do find that my SJ colleages get infuriated that I use logic to come to the same conclusion they come to by just holding on to the dogmas of the past. My NT colleagues get miffed that I dare come to the same conclusion as those stoggy types.
And in the end I'm liked by no one.
All I can only hope for is that some day I can find a woman who believes as I do and make a good example for everyone else.
--LiT -
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Fri, September 2, 2005 - 5:00 PMLiT, you seem to be on track in terms of good old INTJ logic. What you said brings up another question for me, though --
how do y'all feel about marriage in terms of the social/legal/financial benefits it confers, and in light of all those stuck on the outside looking in? It strikes me on certain level that even if I wanted to get married, it would be hard to do so because I percieve such social injustice around marriage. It's not only the obviously exclusionary stuff, like gay marriage still being a pipe dream in a lot of this country. But also just the way married people get to be perceived as normal or adult, simply by virtue of having married. I feel like I want to stand in solidarity with those who can't get the perks, and I think this may be a fairly INTJ line of reasoning. I'm too outside of the emotional rush to not notice other people suffering on the sidelines... thoughts? -
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Fri, September 2, 2005 - 10:17 PMHow do you feel? Not necessarily an INTJ question is it?;o)
In general it is healthy for a society to have its members wish to proprogate it. In Principle there is no social injustice behind it because it treats everyone equaly and consistantly.
Everyone has a responsibility to raise their own replacement child.
In practice there is an injustice because the institution of Modern Marriage assigns the privileges but doesn't enforce primary obligation of the institution. Children are exceedingly costly, so society penalizes those who are not doing their fair share.
Married couples that don't produce children are called the pejorative DINK (Dual income no kids). Behind their back people go whisper why are they not doing what is expected of them. And the implication is that they are either greedy bastards, mentaly deranged, sexually perverse or any combination of those. They receive much the same treatment after 5 years as if they never married each other in the first place. Society is now extremely lenient about this compared to the past. All that is faced now is a diminshed social reputation.
In previous eras, the locality would insist that the marriage should be disolved and that one or both parties should find a partner that can produce what is expected. Often the man was forced into a marriage with widow that was still in her childbearing years that had already had a child from her deceased husband. He was further penalized by being forced to raise a child that was not his. Similar would happen with the woman, forced into marriage with a husband whose wife died in childbirth. It kind of makes you thankful you are living in these times (doubly for a woman, I can understand wanting to avoid the pain of childbirth).
Ironicly, it is often the people who clever are enough to deduce that it is not worth it (in their self intrest) raise a family are exactly the ones who have the genetic material worth proprogating. (I also find vice versa to be even more ture).
If there is any genetics having to do with INTJ-ness you can see why they only compose 2% of the population now.....
-LiT
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, September 3, 2005 - 2:07 AM>how do y'all feel about marriage in terms of the social/legal/financial
>benefits it confers, and in light of all those stuck on the outside looking in?
>I feel like I want to stand in solidarity with those who can't get the
>perks, and I think this may be a fairly INTJ line of reasoning
Out of curiousity... how's your score along the F/T line?
For me, (88T) this falls so outside my line of thought... that I was confused for a few seconds.
Basically as I think the temperament descriptors accurately suggest, the INTJ acid test in examining this would be 'Does it work'? 'Does it produce results?'
While I can understand that you might want to 'feel like you want to stand in solidarity', it seems to me... that would accomplish nothing either than 'feeling solidarity'. (but perhaps I'm simply underinformed on the 'effectiveness' of solidarity)
Given the choice of:
me having 'benefit x' with another having 'no benefit x'
or
Both of us having 'no benefit X'
Frankly... I'm generally going to choose something over nothing, unless it looks like the strategy of 'double nothing' might actually produce 'double something'. In this case... I don't see that as possible by simply refusing to participate.
Any idea of wanting to feel solidarity goes out the window if solidarity doesn't look like it can produce results.... a point at which I would think an INTJ would bail. -
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, September 3, 2005 - 2:39 AMI'm not talking about feeling solidarity in some namby pamby touchy feely way. I'm saying there are real consequences for others when we get caught up in religion or romance or love or whatever it is that drives any individual X to marriage. There are real consequences for others when the many grab up all those nice benefits with little regard for those who are left on the outside.
"Does it work?" is not just a question I apply to myself and my own immediate well being. I factor in the well being of those with whom I share the world. Ultimately, I think this is a fairly utilitarian approach. To me, not taking into account others in figuring out what is in my best interest is a little like shitting where you eat. This is true on a micro scale -- for e.g., piss off or hurt your partner by doing something unkind/selfish you think is in your immediate best interest, and you're home life is going to be funky for a spell. I think this is true on a larger scale as well -- the disenfranchised become rambunctious and eventually get their way.
I don't remember my score along the F/T line and hardly think that's to the point at the moment. I'm solidly INTJ. I've just always been interested in social justice. Also I've had a lot of time in the past few years to work on my social side, and think it is possible for INTJs to be quite feeling, though perhaps it will always be a kind of different, more cebral flavor of feeling than others experience. -
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, September 3, 2005 - 4:03 AMI agree with every one of your points.
And yet still (perhaps I'm just groggy this morning) I'm having difficulty seeing what result/solution the act of refraining from marriage generates in relation to providing equal benefits to the disenfranchised...
And if that's not the desired goal in developing such a solidarity, in this case... what is? -
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, September 3, 2005 - 3:09 PMLiT, it's interesting that you associate marriage and children. I don't think our culture should be encouraging anyone to have children, and I definitely don't want any of my own -- much less do I feel any obligation to reproduce, in spite of the pressure I get to do so. As to looking at marriage as a means by which to encourage "healthy" child-rearing -- I disagree with the notion that children produced in a heterosexual marriage are any healthier or better than any other children. More desirable by society's outmoded standards, perhaps, but not inherently better or worse. Suffice to say, I don't see many families with "normal" marriages/kids/etc that seem to be very "happy" by my standards.
Marriage in the USA is a pretty convoluted institution, it seems. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sun, September 4, 2005 - 10:59 AMWhy don't you think were should be encouraging further generations of humanity. Would you rather have us ALL decide to take vows of chastity and humanity die off in a century or so.
The fact few people honor the orignal intent of marriage just adds more force to my arguement. I would will hard pressed to find people who were trully raised in a family where the original intent was observed. Just about every child in this generation has had parents that thought of marriage as a fidelity pact between two individuals and not a solemn vow to provide for a family. You really have prove that children from single parents do better prove your point. I agree with you, we have let Marriage in the USA become pretty convoluted institution, now is the time to get it back to its roots.
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sun, September 4, 2005 - 11:14 AMLiT, would you say that people who are unable to reproduce -- for instance, the woman has had a hysterectomy -- should not or have not reason to marry?
Do you think that folks who cannot reproduce or do not want to be parents should not have access to the same family-oriented inheritance and health care benefits as fertile couples?
How about polyfidelitous triads raising one or more children? By your way of thinking do you support extending marriage to them, but withholding it from monogamous het couples who choose not to reproduce?
I am having trouble grasping your logic. -
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sun, September 4, 2005 - 1:36 PMPolygamistic situations are inheritly unstable.
I wish I had to time to explain why but this but a complete explanation would likely divert this whole thread.
If two fathers or two mothers can share a mate and treat a child of the other the same as their own. I would say that they should qualify as a "family". I just do not think it is in human nature or even "natural" from a darwinistic perspective for this happen.
Most of these questions of property inheritance etc are mostly about passing a legacy to the next generation. Those questions become moot when there is NO next gerneration.
It is most likely that your partner is the same generation as you. Given that, it is arbitrary which of you will survive the longest. Ultimately the disposition of property will wind up being a relatively short term situation, from a societal point of view. (It is Sad that losing your lifepartner does shorten your life expectancy)
With a parent /child relationship it is always presumed that the child will survive the parent. In fact it is always considered a trajedy for a parent to lose a child, while being an orphan is just an eventuality. It is because this has a lasting societal legacy that there is a noticible bias to make sure the remaining parent recieves the inhertence so that the child has a better chance to thrive. Please notice inhertance to the spouse is just a side effect of a marraige contract, the children are the real inheritors.
Society(historically) has treated monogamous couples who can not reproduce (either by choice or by biology) rather harshly( see previous post) specificly because it represents a darwinistic dead end. Society even will dispense with monogamy for the imperitive that there must be a next generation. (The Story of Sarah & Abraham comes to mind)
A woman who has had a hysterectomy really has no need for marriage if she dosen't have any children to take care of. She may have a need for companionship, but marriage fufills that need as a side effect and it is not the institution's primary purpose. (The promise of fidelity is aimed to protect the children of the relationship it does little the parents.)
Health Care benefits.... In the Long term this will be moot anyways. I already have to subsidize 100% of the cost to cover my prospective spouse & children with my corporate health plan. I figure it is just a matter of time before it spreads into the public sector. In fact I'm rather beffuddled by the concept of employers providing health coverage and not auto liability coverage. (I need transportation to get to work just a badly as I need to be healthy to get to work) Ultimately I see health coverage going the route of auto coverage. Sadly I doubt employers will raise cash compensation so you can pay for it.
I want to thank you all out there for being civil and allowing me to lay out the logic as I see it.
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sun, September 4, 2005 - 12:51 PMI'm just saying we shouldn't be encouraging anyone to have children. If someone WANTS to have kids, fine, but it shouldn't be a SOCIAL STANDARD. Love/marriage need not be equated with procreation. People who opt not to have children (or who cannot have children) should still be able to marry.
Viewing marriage as a crutch for breeders is quite impractical -- why not just have tax breaks etc for people who actually HAVE children? I know lots of married people who either decided not to have kids (even if they once wanted to) or who can't have kids for biological reasons -- it makes no sense to give them tax breaks etc for kids they haven't had YET.... ....so let's see them produce some physical tangible babies before they get any benefits!
I sort of think it ought to be the other way around -- those of us who are not going to have kids should get tax breaks. We are lessening the human impact on the world, preserving it for future generations -- thus we should be rewarded... ...that's what I think, anyways.
My concerns are the marked increase in competition and suffering that are resulting from global overpopulation. I am of the opinion that some sort of wide-scale population control is going to be necessary, lest our society devolve into chaos and mass extinction.... ....so, encouraging EVERYONE to have kids is a recipe for disaster, IMO. -
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sun, September 4, 2005 - 12:56 PM"You really have prove that children from single parents do better prove your point."
I don't follow this at all -- there is no proving it either way; I doubt you can prove that children result from a marriage "do better" (whatever "do better" means).
I wasn't referring to "single parents", either, merely to children that arise outside of a "traditional" (American-style) marriage unit. I am actually in favor of a more tribal model, where the community looks out for each other and there is not so much emphasis on the child as being a "possession" or "liability" of the birth-parents. Maybe then parents could butt out of their children's lives a little bit more and let them have their own experiences.
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, September 3, 2005 - 3:11 PMThis kind of thing only works when people respond to a perceived injustice en masse. For example, if one lone kid had burnt his Viet Nam draft card, it really wouldn't have made much of a difference -- he would have been socially and/or legally sanctioned, end of story. But when a government has to deal with a huge portion of its population -- and especially those it relies upon do its bidding -- you will see a very different response. Especially if that government's mission becomes manifestly ill conceived (as Viet Nam and in my opinion continuing to sanction only specific sorts of marital unions).
I have a little plan with regard to a similar problem in one of the communities I connect to most strongly. Under Jewish law -- I'm a Jew -- divorce is granted unilaterally by men. It's a long story, but the way marital law is structured was once meant to protect a woman's rights, financial, sexual, etc. That was in the days before divorce became commonplace. Today, the structure of Jewish marriage puts all of the power in the husband's hands -- he can choose to "grant" or not "grant" his wife a divorce, and this often leads to extortion (I'll give you the divorce if you give me the house), and worse. The worst is that the woman can't remarry without the husband granting the divorce, and even if she does choose to flaut the law and partner with another man, any offspring of the second marriage will have the legal status of bastards, and this status will affect who they may and may not marry. The current structure of Jewish marital law also means that if a husband goes out for cigarettes one night and does not return, the woman is stuck indefinitely. A man can be angry and vindictive and just not give her a divorce for the heck of it. The rabbinate is not acting fast enough to fix this egregious injustice, because it doesn't have to -- there is not enough pressure on them and not enough protest. They have it all wrapped up, nice and neat. Sometimes when a woman comes to them begging for them to intercede and help her get a divorce because her husband beats her, they send her back, and tell her not to upset him so much. SERIOUS PROBLEM in my community. Hope I'm not stoking the flames of anti-Semitism with this one, but every community has its crap and this is part of my community's...
So anyway, being a good citizen of my community (or a bad citizen) I want to fix this problem that has been decades in need of fixing. One social action I am considering having folks begin taking is stating publicly and in a media savvy way that they can not and will not sign on for any contract that does not protect their best interests, and the current structure of the Jewish marital contract clearly does not protect them. I would encourage women who feel ill at ease with traditional Jewish marriage to basically say, "Sorry, I'm not stupid." The women's partners to stand beside them and say, "I love this woman and would not want to be joined to her in such a way as might some day be harmful to her."
This is a social action that would work by applying frightening pressure to a rabbinate that is concerned with assimilation -- Jews marrying "out," and more than anything would like to see us preserve some semblance of our culture. The protest would go to the heart of that desire for continuity, and would threaten it in an immediate way.
Even fifty couples doing this publicly would be enough to get the attention of leadership in my community. This is perhaps a much smaller project than finding thousands to standing in solidarity with our gay friends or people who want to tie the knot in various other configurations.
There has yet to be real protest from straight people on behalf of gays, and I do believe the thing to do when you want to get a little change going is threaten to upset the social order quite a bit. So yes, if you and I alone will state to all of our friends that we refuse to marry on grounds that we will not accept all the privileges concommitant with marriage while our gay/poly/whatever friends get the short end of the stick (and are treated as all the more freaky when viewed against the foil of us normals)... well, their going to call us noble to our faces and idiots behind our backs, probably. But when 50,000 people opt out for such noble and thoughtful reasons, change will come. Indeed, change will come anyway, with or without us. When the dust settles, I want to be able to know I chose right over privilege.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, September 3, 2005 - 4:28 PMNew Thread... since I diverge to much
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Unsu...
Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, May 6, 2006 - 12:41 PMMy wedding ring is a $60 piece of silver with a Gaelic inscription on it. My wife occassionally bugs me to upgrade to gold. "Why", says I, "So we can go nuts when it gets lost?"
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Mon, May 15, 2006 - 10:39 PMI get them anthropologically - along with funerals, they are occasions
for reaffirming kinship ties, which historically were much more important
in a tribe-and-clan world than a nation-state one. They're great for genealogists.
I met a guy who shoud have been 115; turns out it was the grandfather of the gent I spoke with...
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, September 23, 2006 - 9:57 AMI hate the idea of marriage. It's basically only a legal contract that makes it more difficult to separate, IMO. And a lot of times it legitimizes romantic relationships with douchebags in other people's eyes because they've publicly promised that they will "love them forever and ever." Marriage is hardly a sacred ceremony anymore with the divorce rate as high as it is now.
On the other hand, marriages are like a public display of undying devotion, which is probably very important to people who feel that somebody doesn't completely love you unless they want to marry you. I can see why marriage isn't right for me, but probably a lot of people find it very reassuring and meaningful. I think a lot of people would say, "If you love someone so much, why wouldn't you want to marry them?" My response would be "because I don't need to," but probably most people probably aren't like that.
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Sat, September 23, 2006 - 10:01 AMOh, I forgot to say that I do like weddings if you're planning on having kids. It's nice to have both parents legally obligated to take care of them, and it saves the kids the stigmatism of being born out of wedlock. Plus, both sides of the family will feel obligated to help out (hopefully) if the going gets tough for the kids.
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Re: weddings -- don't get 'em.
Wed, November 22, 2006 - 2:24 PMI guess there are two Emily's on this forum, both without a picture of any sort by their name. I guess the other one is in Florida though, and I'm in Tennessee.
I have nothing against weddings, since they mean a lot to some people.
I personally can't imagine myself ever really getting caught up in the sentimentality and all that though.
