Tribe.net. Local Connections $item.owner.firstName http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/e21788db-eb34-447f-b296-70e1c037d000#ea55620f-15b9-41fa-8c15-a442e3dd5770 2008-08-04T21:45:48Z 2008-08-04T21:45:48Z

timely question for me - I have had some extra personal time lately and have immersed myself in studying Gnostism - I guess that doesnt count exactly as existentialism but it could depending on what you mean by it. Maybe a lot of us tend toward the idea that what we see around us could not possibly be the creation of an all-good all-wise creator and there must be something more? Jung was a big time Gnostic btw and claimed to be "possessed" by one when he wrote the seven sermons to the dead http://www.gnosis.org/library/7Sermons.htm The idea that most people (including myself) are walking around half-asleep and if we could just "wake up" things would be better - anyone else?

$item.owner.firstName 2008-08-04T21:45:48Z Nils http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/e21788db-eb34-447f-b296-70e1c037d000#a186ed1b-264f-41e0-8977-15171f23741b 2008-07-03T01:37:48Z 2008-07-03T01:37:48Z

Not in the slightest obsessed, I oppose it; admittedly it used to (past tense) intrigue me though. Without even going into any complexities, existentialism argues complete relativity to the individual, it denies objectivity and moral absolutism. If everything is relative, I can do what I want. Thus in basic terms its starting point are as the first words of Satan sound in genesis "ye can be like gods". So it is not really all that radical and new, just more of the old stuff under a new coat, with an enticing new flavour. The real question is Peta, why do you find yourself obsessed with this concept?

Nils 2008-07-03T01:37:48Z klaus http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/e21788db-eb34-447f-b296-70e1c037d000#a793c059-5d26-42dd-a471-38ec771e78b3 2008-07-02T20:29:14Z 2008-07-02T20:29:14Z

I've essentially used the description by H. Jonas, a follower of the school of a certain M. Heidegger, along with the famous theologian R. Bultmann.. Maybe Jonas, Bultmann, and Heidegger were just maverick existentialists? --- Jonas emphasizes that the two outlooks are far from identical. In Gnosticism the world is demonic and hostile; in existentialism it is impersonal and indifferent. In Gnosticism one is presently separated from one's true self-, in existentialism one has no fixed nature. In Gnosticism the alienation is surmountable; in existentialism it is not. from: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n32_v112/ai_17611108

klaus 2008-07-02T20:29:14Z Vicky Jo http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/e21788db-eb34-447f-b296-70e1c037d000#574c762f-2057-47f3-9b3c-536c9d38488e 2008-07-02T17:16:11Z 2008-07-02T17:16:11Z

That's so interesting -- it doesn't match what I think of as "existentialism" at all! (I already said my definition might be goofy.) From my perspective, there *is* something "impersonal and indifferent" about it. Like, it's hard to get anxious about the price of gas or the economy right now, given eternity. And of course it's nothing compared to the Spanish Inquisition [say], or the Plague. It simply doesn't "scale" the same when you weigh it against those events. Neither do I experience the world as "evil" -- my husband and I are so naturally inclined to Positive Psychology thinking. It's not something we were taught -- it seems to be an inborn optimism of a kind -- I encounter that with most IN_Js. To me, with my goofy definition, it also feels like existentialism IS transcendental knowledge.... and I feel like I just live there, so worrying about "salvation" doesn't feel right. It's not a concept I ordinarily consider. (Perhaps "salvation" is in every waking moment, determined by each choice I make. Hmmm.....) I recently watched a YouTube video of C.G. Jung. The type experts I hang with believe C.G. had INTJ preferences, and he seems to be espousing what I would call existentialism in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOxlZm2AU4o (He reminds me a lot of my husband. :-O) I wonder whether our culture rejects existential ideas because it triggers its Shadow. Certainly it seems like the polar opposite of an introverted Sensing concern. Interesting to consider.

Vicky Jo 2008-07-02T17:16:11Z klaus http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/e21788db-eb34-447f-b296-70e1c037d000#406bce06-6f56-4207-a76a-3f3c387fefb4 2008-07-02T11:38:54Z 2008-07-02T11:38:54Z

No, I'm not obsessed with existentialism, because existentialism denies that the world is downright evil from the get on, they just assume it to be impersonal and indifferent. In addition, existentialism denies the necessity and possibility of salvation by transcendental knowledge.

klaus 2008-07-02T11:38:54Z Peta http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/e21788db-eb34-447f-b296-70e1c037d000#72294c91-b66f-40c4-aa8b-3da5c0624895 2008-07-01T13:04:04Z 2008-07-01T13:04:04Z

Hi Vicki, That's a really beautiful idea for a wedding, very romantic :) I would love to visit stonehenge one day. Peta

Peta 2008-07-01T13:04:04Z $item.owner.firstName http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/e21788db-eb34-447f-b296-70e1c037d000#f048542f-324f-4af7-b6f4-d8168bbcbd0d 2008-07-01T08:19:46Z 2008-07-01T08:19:46Z

I was a bit obsessed with existentialism when I first learned of it (iirc I was 17yo), as it finally put into words (in a stilted fashion) how I already felt & acted. I also enjoy the Seth books by Jane Roberts, which I feel offer a somewhat more pragmatic approach to the same dilemma (if you can get past the pretense).

$item.owner.firstName 2008-07-01T08:19:46Z Vicky Jo http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/e21788db-eb34-447f-b296-70e1c037d000#f8ea6c9e-685f-4d56-9ca2-288a3a6654c7 2008-06-30T16:21:04Z 2008-06-30T16:18:52Z

When I lean into my own experience of this concept (which may not be accurate, or how the rest of the world defines this term), I wouldn't say that INTJs are "obsessed" with existentialism.... However, I *would* say that existentialism is a "stance" that introverted iNtuiting types take. It's a "come-from." Someone once asked Jung if he believed in God. He replied that he didn't "believe." He knew. In my mind, this speaks to the "inner knowing" that all IN_Js have. We don't "think," "believe," "hope." We just KNOW. Can't even help it. It's woven into the fabric of who we are. Introverted iNtuiting is powerfully connected to the archetype of eternity. So that's our timeframe. It's impossible to get wrapped too tightly around the axle about something happening today, this week, this month when one carries the timetable for the entire universe as a backdrop. One reason I resist the idea of INTJs being "obsessed" with it is because I'm not even sure they're always aware of it -- it just is. It's an unconscious framework, so to speak. It's always present in the space, but may never get named. It's why my INTJ husband and I wed at Stonehenge -- it symbolically represented all of time for us, antiquity reaching into the future, collapsed together in this single mysterious locale. Does this speak to what you're asking......? (It took me a long time to realize I was existentialist in my views in terms of time/perspective -- it was a slow burn for me to put a name to this mindset. ;-D) PS: I notice you are Australian -- so is my husband. For him Uluru also represents this timelessness, and always creates a sense of awe in him.

Vicky Jo 2008-06-30T16:18:52Z Jaime http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/e21788db-eb34-447f-b296-70e1c037d000#bd46ab07-7182-4426-9e5c-d649a7a85667 2008-06-30T15:31:14Z 2008-06-30T15:31:14Z

Hmmm....not really. I do agree with certain things about existentialism. Like the fact that I can shape my own destiny. However, I also believe that the universe is also the means thru which I can achieve this (If I recall correctly, existentialism professes that the universe has no intrinsic meaning or purpose). Sort of like the belief that you make a wish to the universe and the universe will move things towards achieving or providing you with your goal.

Jaime 2008-06-30T15:31:14Z Peta http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/e21788db-eb34-447f-b296-70e1c037d000#309ef966-4612-427e-85f8-3e6327217542 2008-06-30T09:39:16Z 2008-06-30T09:39:16Z

Just curious :)

Peta 2008-06-30T09:39:16Z