Gauging interest in an INTJ Masterminds Tele-meeting

topic posted Wed, October 31, 2007 - 1:52 PM by  Vicky Jo
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I'm polling INTJs to see whether there is interest in my hosting a regular INTJ Masterminds tele-meeting.

Will you take my poll? It's short.

Find it here:
tinyurl.com/2barsr

Thank you!
posted by:
Vicky Jo
Los Angeles
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  • Unsu...
     
    I'm not interested in attending a meeting without an agenda.

    How's that for INTJ? It's introverted and organized.... ;P
    • Where did I say there was no agenda??

      Another INTJ said the same thing on the survey form itself, btw.

      Rest assured that, being married to an INTJ, I know better than to do something "drop-in" and "go-with-the-flow" with Chart-the-Course Theorists. Why don't I just waste everyone's time for an hour? (Wait -- what am I saying? If it's "drop-in" and "go-with-the-flow," it's gotta start late and run long too, doesn't it? And let's not stay on topic either.)

      (Are you rolling in pain yet??)

      Hey, just so we don't bog down the board with my stuff, I'm wondering whether to invite people to post their comments to the survey itself so as not to wear out my welcome here. Does that work for you?

      (And how's that for introverted and organized right back?)
      • Unsu...
         
        >>Hey, just so we don't bog down the board with my stuff, I'm wondering whether to invite people to post their comments to the survey itself so as not to wear out my welcome here. Does that work for you? <<

        I'm actually interested in seeing how other INTJs respond to a social gathering, and what topics people would like to discuss.

        How about:

        "Making Your Minions Grovel Most Pleasingly"
        "Mad Science: The New Magic?"
        "The Evils of Democracy. How the Earth Must Be Ruled by the Brightest People"


        >>Rest assured that, being married to an INTJ, I know better than to do something "drop-in" and "go-with-the-flow" with Chart-the-Course Theorists.<<

        Actually, Our Intuition allows us to work quite well with "going with the flow" and adapting to new situations. What frustrates me the most is getting stuck. If something is perceived as worth doing, then an INTJ will happily invest time into it.
        • >>I'm actually interested in seeing how other INTJs respond to a social gathering, and what topics people would like to discuss.

          Oh, okay. If it serves you, then I'm fine with it. I just didn't want to spend too much time on my own agenda here, but if it provides a useful conversation then I'm delighted.

          >>How about:

          >>"Making Your Minions Grovel Most Pleasingly"
          >>"Mad Science: The New Magic?"
          >>"The Evils of Democracy. How the Earth Must Be Ruled by the Brightest People"

          Interesting topic suggestions!

          I was thinking more along the lines of

          "If I'm so smart, why am I on my fourth marriage?"
          "What does emotional intelligence have to do with having INTJ preferences?"
          "In what ways do INTJs get 'stuck' and what are some ways to get 'unstuck'?"
          "How do I, as an INTJ, best honor my own preferences?"
          "How do INTJs know when something is 'worth doing'?"

          Mind you, I don't have the answers -- but I'm willing to stand in the questions with you.

          What do you think?
          • Unsu...
             
            >>"If I'm so smart, why am I on my fourth marriage?" <<

            I'm on my first and hopefully only marriage. It's been going really well being married to an ISFP.

            >>"What does emotional intelligence have to do with having INTJ preferences?"<<

            Emotional intelligence is not considered "intelligence". Emotions cloud the mind, not help it out.


            >>"In what ways do INTJs get 'stuck' and what are some ways to get 'unstuck'?" <<

            Stuck on problems. I learn more and practice harder to get unstuck. Or I contemplate a problem, turning it over in my mind, or examine it from another angle. I like to reconsider the problem and see if I've misread or misconsidered it. I identify the "fuzzy" parts, the parts which don't really seem to make sense.

            >>"How do I, as an INTJ, best honor my own preferences?" <<

            My preferences? [???]


            >>"How do INTJs know when something is 'worth doing'?" <<

            When it helps you to achieve a goal, or it gives you more skills and experience to apply to acheiving goals in the future.
            • So..... be you perfect? Are you a lucky guy who faces no challenges in your life?

              Lucky you!

              My INTJ husband has a habit of misplacing things....

              and I've heard him complain that in the past he has felt betrayed by co-workers who undermined his advancements.

              I think he's also been hit with the "arrogant" label from time to time.

              Being a father was a big challenge for him.

              And, since "emotions are the currency of relationship," he's always felt a little bit "relationship-challenged."

              But maybe he's unique -- maybe other INTJs don't have similar issues? I'm curious to hear what other INTJs struggle with.

              ;-)

              (I'm puzzled about your question around "preferences." Psychological type is a model of *preferences* -- right? "INTJ" indicates preferences -- those things you are naturally inclined to do.)
              • Unsu...
                 
                >>So..... be you perfect? Are you a lucky guy who faces no challenges in your life? <<

                Ugh, no. A perfect life is full of challenges. I love them challenges to pieces. Surmounting each one makes me a better person.


                >>But maybe he's unique -- maybe other INTJs don't have similar issues?<<

                Well, I have a secret. I used to be an INFP most of my life, but my shadow was INTJ. After a long time with being INFP, I decided that I was really unhappy with it. So I flopped with my shadow. I still remember all of the insights of being an INFP and still retain some empathy.
                • Unsu...
                   
                  >>Well, I have a secret. I used to be an INFP most of my life, but my shadow was INTJ. After a long time with being INFP, I decided that I was really unhappy with it. So I flopped with my shadow. I still remember all of the insights of being an INFP and still retain some empathy.<<


                  Oh boy. Vicki Jo won't be happy to hear that...

                  :::ducks for cover:::
                • Uhhhhhh....

                  when you plant an acorn you get an oak tree. when you plant a pinecone you get a pine tree.

                  You will never get a pine tree out of an acorn, nor a pine tree out of an acorn.

                  What I'm trying to say is that whatever type you are, you are that type throughout your whole life -- inasmuch as it may shift, change, and develop just as an acorn does not *resemble* an oak tree in the beginning. (Nor does every oak tree look identical, although there are certain aspects of oak trees that *are* the same -- which is how we know they are an oak not a pine tree.)

                  In like fashion, either you were and still now enjoy INFP preferences -- OR you were and still now enjoy INTJ preferences. You have not changed -- only your understanding or perception of yourself has changed. And who knows which one is accurate today? Certainly I wouldn't dare to guess via email. (That's what I offer self-discovery programs for.)

                  Lots more I could say on this topic, but let's leave it there for now. How does this idea about type land with you? ;-)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    >>What I'm trying to say is that whatever type you are, you are that type throughout your whole life -- inasmuch as it may shift, change, and develop just as an acorn does not *resemble* an oak tree in the beginning.<<

                    I disagree with your analogy. DNA is not the same as personality preferences. Identity and personality is much more fluid than you might believe. Take Leonard Cohen for example. The same man who wrote "Susannah" also wrote "The Future".

                    I can tell you that I tested as an INFP before my flop and now I test as an INTJ. Also that my interests before lead me to get a baccalaurate's in English and now I'm currently an electrical engineering student.
                    • You are welcome to disagree -- I can hardly prevent it. However, type experts generally agree that you do NOT change your type code. So if you're going to use this model and employ the codes, it might be worthwhile to Get It Right. Otherwise it's like claiming to be Catholic AND espousing Buddhist philosophies. It may work for you personally, but it isn't in integrity with *either* philosophy per se. (I realize that metaphor may not be ideal, but I'm not spending a lot of my time on this, to tell you the truth.)

                      Of COURSE your pattern looks different across all the seasons of life. After all, the original book title was "Psychological Types: a Theory of Individuation." It's all about individuating, developing. The distinction is that we develop *according* to our natural pattern. We don't jump ship and become "a different kind of tree" halfway through our lives.

                      And if we could -- well, frankly, what would be the POINT? If we can just change types at the drop of the hat, then I've completely lost interest in the whole notion. Let's just go play foosball instead.

                      For the record, the "test" does not assign you your type pattern -- all it does it reflect your particular understanding of yourself at that point in time. I think it's safe to say that your understanding of yourself has changed dramatically over the years, from when you perhaps once wanted a pony more than ANYTHING in the world. (What a shock it would be to wake up a find a pony standing in your front yard today, a present just waiting for you. ;-D)

                      Type is not a model of limitations, however -- it's about *preferences*. As a matter of fact, INFPs and INTJs share the Te <----> Fi axis, so it's quite common for them to mis-type as one another. They have a great deal in common. (I personally look to the Temperament model for understanding which is the better fit in most cases.) Many INFPs (for instance) are sooooo aspirational in their use of Te that they believe themselves to have INTJ preferences. I've met a number of those. (I'm not suggesting that's true for you -- I'm just noting that it isn't as rare as one might think.)

                      The fact is, I don't have the hours and hours of time needed to give you an advanced level course in type theory. You are welcome to take an MBTI qualifying program in order to grasp these basics. That's not my job here.

                      I don't know you, and you don't know me -- and I'm not interested in being "the bad guy" because I have 11 years of working with this model and have been trained in what "the rules are" for employing the model(s). Truthfully.... I'd rather you read up on the theory elsewhere and get to know it better before you start pronouncing me and my metaphor as being "wrong." I don't think it's fair that I have to "teach you" where the gaps in your knowledge are before we can have a discussion around best-fit type and what "preferences" really are. (I normally get paid to do that.) Is that a reasonable request to make of an INTJ?

                      Of course, if you do have INFP preferences, this will likely trigger an ad hominem attack since it will threaten your values. So even how you respond will give us some insights about which best-fit pattern is truly yours. ;-D
                      • Unsu...
                         
                        >>You are welcome to disagree -- I can hardly prevent it. However, type experts generally agree that you do NOT change your type code. So if you're going to use this model and employ the codes, it might be worthwhile to Get It Right.<<

                        Dear Vicky,

                        Real life experience trumps the theories of all the Poobahs. With the scientific method it takes only one anomaly to shatter a thousand years of Getting it Wrong.

                        I invite any of your type experts to interview me and judge for themselves.

                        >>I'm not spending a lot of my time on this, to tell you the truth.<<

                        I can tell. You're being a "Rules Lawyer" and not a genuine researcher. Otherwise, you'd be researching my claims instead of telling me how great your rules are and how I should fall in love with them too.
                        • I absolutely know, with every part of my being, that there is a core part of you that has not changed since birth. There is an aspect of you that has been constant, and remained constant throughout your entire life. On some level, it is "who you really are."

                          That part of you also contains the seeds of your true type.

                          There are veils and illusions and shadows and even "anomalies" in the world that conceal that part of us from ourselves, and "robes of distortion" confuse us about our essence.

                          Nevertheless, it is there, always has been, always will be -- and you may connect with that part of yourself in your quietest, most relaxed and effortless moments should you choose to.
  • Unsu...
     
    sorry this has nothing to do with the meetings but it's about the interesting debate between aristos and vicky that I read. I just wanted to post a paragraph of an interesting page about MBTI I'm currently reading.

    Type Paradoxes - An I/ENFP example
    These natural changes and growth in adults account for the apparent paradoxes we sometimes observe in people of all types. Development of the NeTe face of INFPs accounts for the "coolness" and "detachment" we sometimes observe in them. INFP mid-life changes, such as an increasing desire to organize and take charge of one's life or to stop being used as a doormat by others, are consistent with this developing outer NT. Some INFPs have become quite proficient in masking their "true feelings" with their NT face. This same facility in their ENFP cousins has them able to mimic ENTJ stereotypical behavior. They can assume control, take charge of a situation, make the hard decisions, and move on with their job. They can have masterly control over lawyer-speak, slicing careful nuances in meaning and logic. Even though they prefer Feeling over Thinking, they can become and are competent attorneys.The NeTe face on ENFPs and INFPs also explains why these two types are among the top four types having home pages on the Internet (From data on Doug Ingram's Personality Index page. The other two top four types are INTJ and INTP). While NFPs are people-oriented folks, many are drawn to latest technology and technological gadgetry of all sorts - which I ascribe to their extraverted NT face.

    These "faces" that it keeps referring to is the masks we can develope in midlife which is not really the true inner self. I think both of you had valid points. And just like how NF's can develope NT masks, we INTJs have NF mask potentials waiting to come out in midlife.

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