http://intj.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3508df88-c504-485c-ae80-fde9c391c141 Are you serious? I've often found that the way they communicate, especially when it comes to ideas is the only thing that I DO get about ENTPs :p Sat, 18 Apr 2009 04:35:33 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3508df88-c504-485c-ae80-fde9c391c141 Peta 2009-04-18T04:35:33Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1d98378e-8487-4fe1-8e47-dec82e5fee4a >> I confess: I don't know what a "socialized" INTJ is exactly. << I think R21L and Jin may be drawing a distinction between INTJ's who have developed out over a broad range of their functions and rely on them in a more distrubuted fashion when circuitstances warrent appropriate use of them versus those who overuse their introverted iNtuition and extraverted Thinking at the expense of further developing or using their introverted Feeling and extraverted Sensing. It can become a really negative place to be, both for the INTJ and those who have to suffer being around us. Could you shed more light on that aspect of it...? Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:12:32 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1d98378e-8487-4fe1-8e47-dec82e5fee4a Wyatt 2009-03-31T23:12:32Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#07b102bb-3f5d-44d7-9620-876a2693a951 I confess: I don't know what a "socialized" INTJ is exactly. Sometimes that means the person is a mis-typed Catalyst, often ENFP or INFJ. I compare INFJs and INTJs (a common error) on my website at http://www.INFJ.com/INFJorINTJ.htm includes audio and also video of me and my INTJ husband -Vicky Jo :-) Type Practitioner & life coach Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:34:14 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#07b102bb-3f5d-44d7-9620-876a2693a951 Vicky Jo 2009-03-31T21:34:14Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#8e48914d-9bdb-467e-befc-ec47c8249bd4 I am one of the socialized INTJ's, and I must say you hit the target on that sentence about our behaviors. People seem to often wonder why I've snapped because I guess they don't see that I've reached my limit. While I honestly wouldn't mind being a hermit, I do realize the importance of living within a society (as I do not like farming for my food), so I try my best to "get along", but I still have trouble "signing" people that I'm "nearing my limit". Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:16:45 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#8e48914d-9bdb-467e-befc-ec47c8249bd4 $item.owner.firstName 2009-03-31T20:16:45Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#ef61ae4d-8568-4971-a6f1-10b2fe7ba45e I wonder how you determined your preferences are for INTJ. Would you care to share that....? Mon, 01 Dec 2008 16:44:05 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#ef61ae4d-8568-4971-a6f1-10b2fe7ba45e Vicky Jo 2008-12-01T16:44:05Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#649a9198-b291-462f-b24b-5eab283ee96e I'm new here. Am an INTJ, married to an ENTP man. We drive each other practically insane and have been married nearly 17 years. It's taken that long to get used to each other. And determine not to kill each other. I love my ENTP because: 1. He's dynamic 2. He's a quick study and eager learner 3. He sees the big picture, which I struggle with at times 4. He's a long term project - can I get an amen? 5. He makes me feel like the stable one in the relationship :) He drives me crazy because: 1. Communication is a nightmare - he doesn't understand me and I have a difficult time communicating verbally (demonstrating my understanding) 2. He's a dreamer, thinking out loud - not a pragmatist at all 3. He doesn't get me! Things have gotten much better over the years, but only because of some very hard work and a determination that love makes the commitment worth the effort. Our personalities haven't changed, but our ability to understand each other and communicate in ways the other understands have made a huge difference. It's worth it. My ENTP is brilliant, funny, outgoing, emotive - everything I'm not. It's all good. Mon, 01 Dec 2008 10:45:10 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#649a9198-b291-462f-b24b-5eab283ee96e Flea 2008-12-01T10:45:10Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#22560bf6-dd1e-4b4a-8567-8ed2f86225b3 >>So for all I know, you might know who's an ENFP way better than I do.<< Haha! I would never claim that... lol, hence the reason I come on forums like this, and place the burden of being correct about one's self on each person showing up... heh... wwaaaayyyyyyy to difficult if the burden of proof was on me. I'd have to use OTHER interview techniques if it was... and if I was *that* motivated to suck up all of my time doing it (which still seems impossible to get any consistant degree of confidence you are right), I'd also be contributing papers to professional journals and attending conferences like Vicky Jo. Speaking of whom I am glad she shows up here often sharing her insights. LoL! Hmm... ENTP means your processes would be --> Ne, Ti, Fe, Si/ Ni, Te, Fi, Se Ciao! Tue, 02 Sep 2008 20:40:20 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#22560bf6-dd1e-4b4a-8567-8ed2f86225b3 Wyatt 2008-09-02T20:40:20Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d131de1d-7beb-4eac-8a03-d5d83062cdd5 You're right. I left one crucial piece out of that example: I ignored the hypothetical couple's ability to judge for themselves who's advice was right, and who was just leaving a lot of smoke in thier bedroom. In reality, all people have that ability. By the way, lately I've come to the conclusion that I'm definately an ENTP. So for all I know, you might know who's an ENFP way better than I do. Sun, 31 Aug 2008 12:48:12 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d131de1d-7beb-4eac-8a03-d5d83062cdd5 Gabriel 2008-08-31T12:48:12Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#71eb9d5a-5b55-44a8-9048-66d6b40895bf >> But I also want people to get it right conceptually. << What do you define as “right”? And how can you be sure? Type is only one lens among many, and there is still some ambiguity over how effective it really is, and even in how experts view its application and usefulness. >> Imagine this following rediculous scenario: >> A couple who've been married for two years get in a huge fight one night....over..I-cant-think-of-a-good-story. Over something. In the heat of thier arguement, someone with rudimentary type knowledge appears (poof!) and says. "I know about personality, I can help you. He tells the husband, "you're a T" and tells the wife, "you're an F"." Then they dissapear. << >> The next night, the couple get into another arguement. This time, a woman appears, and says "Relax, folks. You just have different signs." turns to the husband and says "you're a Gemini and she's a Leo". Poof! << >> The next night, the couple get into a much worse fight. Dr. Phil appears.... << >> Is there really any difference between the first, the second, and the third night? << So let me see if I understand your thought experiment by following it out (and I may tweak it some, too). First, I think you are implying that the outcome due to the first condition (Rudimentary Type Genie) is no better than the second two (Astrological Genie, and Dr. Phil) which I am assuming you regard as pseudo-science/pseudo-psychology and therefore unreliable. Second, you are implying that the outcome would/could/should be much different and more positive (and predictable) for the couple if they had Solid-foundation Expert Type Genie rather than Rudimentary Type Genie (i.e., you imply nothing gets resolved, but that there would be resolution and/or growth for the couple with a more knowledgeable Type Genie around). Am I correct in my assumptions? Hmmm… I would think whether there is really a difference between the first, second and third nights depends on how each person is oriented (is one an intuitive feeler, and weighted toward “mystical” beliefs… i.e., runes, fate, karma… whatever…, and/or is one an intuitive thinker, and weighted toward “logical” beliefs… i.e., personality type, psychology…? Maybe one or both are a sensing perceiver, and weighted toward “just going with the flow and letting life and issues magically work themselves out,” or maybe using logic when he/she finds themselves desperate for it… or maybe one or both are sensing judgers and favor more “traditional” and “practical” ways of solving their problems… i.e., therapist, pastor, economics of the issue, etc… I am not saying that these temperaments are necessarily paired with these types of beliefs or orientations for enlightening themselves or resolving problems… I have just chosen some randomly and assigned them for particular cases without going through every permutation, and without necessarily weeding any out from certain types… And I’m not sure that it can be divided anyway…. It would be an interesting study to see what certain temperaments favor which methods wouldn’t it? However, I would also be willing to bet that someone who is “balanced” across their functions… meaning they have developed out their third and forth processes and also embraced their shadow and learned from it, has also learned (as Vicky Jo would say) to “use feeling functions to solve feeling problems, and use logic functions to solve logic problems.” But two people really do not have to be absolutely mature on every single front to solve their problems between each other…. They simply have to WANT TO SOLVE THEIR ISSUES. (In fact, they don’t have to be mature at all… they just have to want to NOT fight each other). Fight’s usually occur within couple’s relationships when one feels his/her values are threatened… and sometimes the other or both may feel the need to influence an outcome favorable to his/her specific value… i.e., they vie for control of the outcome… actively, passively, whatever. So, what if Rudimentary Type Genie appears and one believes the logic/structure/organization of him/her, and wants to follow it, and the other believes more in “mystical fates” coming from Astrological Genie? I think you mean each of these scenarios to really only serve a purpose to “enlighten” each of the couples on the source of their conflict, which is their orientation to understanding things. However, I don’t quite agree this is how it should be done… I think to enlighten one’s self, then to each their own perspective to help them understand from their own orientation first. So yes, in this regard, you are correct. A person already knowledgeable in Type would want Expert Type Genie explaining to him/her if he/she were oriented toward this way of understanding things with this particular lens for exploiting aspects of each person (at the expense of suppressing other attributes, I might add). However, if the other person is oriented toward “mystical arts”, and somewhat knowledgeable in it, then they would need to hear from Expert Astrological Type Genie to gain enlightenment here… However, if each seeks “balance” and to see other’s points of view and orientations… (like their mate’s orientation that they happen to be fighting with… pay attention because I think this is important)… then they will want to be enlightened by the OTHER Genie… the one they are NOT oriented toward… And assuming an extreme case where EACH has little or no knowledge of the other’s orientation, then Rudimentary Type Genie and Astrological Genie will be enough for each (PROVIDED that in their limited knowledge, they are RIGHT with what they say). And the same would be true for the Dr. Phil scenario. Which brings us to another point— before I LISTEN to anyone and take their advice on my personal affairs like that, I would be asking for credentials, or looking for them discretely... doesn’t matter as long as I understand what that person’s knowledge is. A person doesn’t HAVE to… they can just follow whatever someone else says right or wrong, and learn something wrong… people do it all the time. Personally, I find a better philosophy to be to gently gravitate toward those who know what they are talking about, and are tolerant of others, and want to teach me, and also I tend to teach people who want to learn and who gravitate toward me for that purpose… Cramming perceived truth down someone’s throat hardly ever works I have discovered… And some people are quite happy with what they know (or think they do) and not really interested in adding to it (or correcting it). If they are not interested, then I’m simply happy talking to them on their level, learning what their view may be. Or not. I have lots of skills I like to practice, some I would like to learn, and can talk on many different topics. :) Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:44:27 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#71eb9d5a-5b55-44a8-9048-66d6b40895bf Wyatt 2008-08-22T02:44:27Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c62ba965-98c2-4185-a90c-4b8dde214037 "I would never presume to know exactly what goes on in someone else’s head unless I was close to that person. How do you know they are sacrificing reality? I mean, reality begins somewhere. We do not have infinite number of chances at being happy in relationships in this life. Relationships take time to build and we only live a finite number of years. I completely understand someone who has even just a basic understanding of TYPE wanting to INCREASE THEIR CHANCES at finding their special someone that way. Many NF’s I know (not all, but more than not) believe that things happen for a reason, and that their special someone, the ONE that is RIGHT, simply shows up. Many NT’s I know (not all, but more than not) take a more pragmatic approach and look at random variables and numbers, and realize it makes sense to increase their odds. Who’s to say who is right? And does it matter? As long as the job get’s done and we’re happy in the end (both sides, right? I mean otherwise there is no relationship), who cares? I mean, each side looking at it from their end may quite possibly even think their view is the right one until the day they die, but it really doesn’t matter, does it? And even if there were a flaw in the concept, why should it matter what a third party thinks about how or why a couple has met, or what their beliefs are? The only ones who have to account for it are the two in the relationship." Did I just get out-Fi'd? Yes, I have no intention of ruining other people's happiness. But I also want people to get it right conceptually. Imagine this following rediculous scenario: A couple who've been married for two years get in a huge fight one night....over..I-cant-think-of-a-good-story. Over something. In the heat of thier arguement, someone with rudimentary type knowledge appears (poof!) and says. "I know about personality, I can help you. He tells the husband, "you're a T" and tells the wife, "you're an F"." Then they dissapear. The next night, the couple get into another arguement. This time, a woman appears, and says "Relax, folks. You just have different signs." turns to the husband and says "you're a Gemini and she's a Leo". Poof! The next night, the couple get into a much worse fight. Dr. Phil appears.... Is there really any difference between the first, the second, and the third night? Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:45:30 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c62ba965-98c2-4185-a90c-4b8dde214037 Gabriel 2008-07-16T00:45:30Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#992c38a3-02c9-4aee-8efb-b92ea603d837 >> I just turned a cartwheel -- I *love* that you don't completely trust me! That's such good news. Is there any way to write that so it doesn't sound like sarcasm? Because it isn't. << Haha!! I just realized you were talking about YOUR statement sounding sarcastic, not mine! lol no matter. Thanks Vicky Jo! Gotta love ya! Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:23:11 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#992c38a3-02c9-4aee-8efb-b92ea603d837 Wyatt 2008-07-14T11:23:11Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#15177897-2abb-40a0-80ef-f31de19afc12 >> You're right. I was angry, even a bit angy at your very first message I responded to here. << Dami is an online friend I correspond with via email every so often. I was teasing her, but also half-way serious. I can see how it may look stereo-typical to an outsider looking in. >> So I'll adress one of the things that I thought about your first post. Dances. What kind of dances? any kind of rock and roll dancing seems like such an extraverted sensing activity, and a lot of dancing is sexually suggestive, a lot of Ne types would run away from that. Am I off-base here? << The kind of dancing I believe you are referring to happens at Frat parties and club scenes. I’m referring to a more organized and structured type of dance. Ballroom is mainly what I do. Mostly I practice Waltz, Rumba, Tango, Swing (east coast and west coast), Cha-cha, Foxtrot, Meringue, Samba, and Salsa. I have met several ENFP’s here (and yes, ESFP’s, too, along with many other INxx types). I have met more ENFP’s at my Lindy Hop classes and dances more often, though (Lindy is a 1920’s style swing, very active and almost acrobatic in it’s extreme form, but I do a more social type of Lindy that isn’t so intense). I suspect that I have met more there has something to do with a statement that an ENFP friend made to me when I asked her what dancing meant to her. She said, “It is freedom of [creative] expression to me.” She also went on to say that she really enjoyed stage dancing, tap dancing, and the like when she was younger (this is different from social dancing, as you don’t do it with a partner.) She tends to enjoy the Lindy style because in it, the lady has considerably more freedom than she does in the ballroom dances, where there is a lead (the guy), and a follow (the lady). In Lindy, you still have a lead and follow, but the parts are different, and the lady has much more opportunity to improvise. In fact, when I dance ballroom with this particular person, she will try to back-lead me every now and again. Many of the younger ENFP’s I know do not like to be led (which is probably why I find more at the Lindy dances), although most will go along with it nicely and accommodate being led on the dance floor (until they get into a situation which allows them to improvise). As to why they like it and how it fits in with their processes, I do not know exactly. I would suspect that these kind of structured dances fit with their relief process, Te, which is also the process for creative expression for them (as it also is for ESFP’s). I do find that I run into ENFP’s at dances and festive arts more frequently than at random anywhere else I go. >> someone asked "so where can I find all the ENFP females". Which, frankly, is corny and lame. I mean, I should be aware by now that there are many 25-40 yr. old singles on these forums, but when peope try to use type as a dating service, they collectively fudge the theory up the wazoo, sacrificing reality in order to spin a sickinengly simplistic tale of opposites attracting. << I would never presume to know exactly what goes on in someone else’s head unless I was close to that person. How do you know they are sacrificing reality? I mean, reality begins somewhere. We do not have infinite number of chances at being happy in relationships in this life. Relationships take time to build and we only live a finite number of years. I completely understand someone who has even just a basic understanding of TYPE wanting to INCREASE THEIR CHANCES at finding their special someone that way. Many NF’s I know (not all, but more than not) believe that things happen for a reason, and that their special someone, the ONE that is RIGHT, simply shows up. Many NT’s I know (not all, but more than not) take a more pragmatic approach and look at random variables and numbers, and realize it makes sense to increase their odds. Who’s to say who is right? And does it matter? As long as the job get’s done and we’re happy in the end (both sides, right? I mean otherwise there is no relationship), who cares? I mean, each side looking at it from their end may quite possibly even think their view is the right one until the day they die, but it really doesn’t matter, does it? And even if there were a flaw in the concept, why should it matter what a third party thinks about how or why a couple has met, or what their beliefs are? The only ones who have to account for it are the two in the relationship. >> On a different note, this statement "ENFP's hang out at dances, theatres, and weird fairy festivals... lol " is a bit unclear. When I read it, I thought "all ENFPs" (which is what the original dating-service question was about), but you were NOT reffering to all ENFPs. << See above. >> Well, I should have payed attention to your statistical explanation the first time, you did expain yourself very well. << Thanks for that. Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:16:31 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#15177897-2abb-40a0-80ef-f31de19afc12 Wyatt 2008-07-14T11:16:31Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#69ce4107-56e7-4178-88ae-7e3905bb4773 That was nosy (me, of course) So if you don't want to answer that (it is a really nosy question) then there's this to consider: someone asked "so where can I find all the ENFP females". Which, frankly, is corny and lame. I mean, I should be aware by now that there are many 25-40 yr. old singles on these forums, but when peope try to use type as a dating service, they collectively fudge the theory up the wazoo, sacrificing reality in order to spin a sickinengly simplistic tale of opposites attracting. On a different note, this statement "ENFP's hang out at dances, theatres, and weird fairy festivals... lol " is a bit unclear. When I read it, I thought "all ENFPs" (which is what the original dating-service question was about), but you were NOT reffering to all ENFPs. Well, I should have payed attention to your statistical explanation the first time, you did expain yourself very well. Fri, 11 Jul 2008 04:12:56 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#69ce4107-56e7-4178-88ae-7e3905bb4773 Gabriel 2008-07-11T04:12:56Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6df0dbbe-044d-4f03-a75e-96a278c24dae You're right. I was angry, even a bit angy at your very first message I responded to here. I had (have been) hanging out on a forum where type-biased messages were the norm, and as soon as I saw your post, I "read" tons of things into that about your opinions and motives that were not true. It didn't help that when I suggested and accused in that fashion on the other forum, people ended up being just as biased and wrong-headed as I suspected. Anyway, you are not in my bottom five, or not earning my respect, or any of that crap. So I'll adress one of the things that I thought about your first post. Dances. What kind of dances? any kind of rock and roll dancing seems like such an extraverted sensing activity, and a lot of dancing is sexually suggestive, a lot of Ne types would run away from that. Am I off-base here? Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:37:46 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6df0dbbe-044d-4f03-a75e-96a278c24dae Gabriel 2008-07-10T22:37:46Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f93607d6-a74e-4fb5-9f8f-b332b2621b2b >> I just turned a cartwheel -- I *love* that you don't completely trust me! That's such good news. Is there any way to write that so it doesn't sound like sarcasm? Because it isn't. << Haha! You are too funny! Lol… And, yes, there is a way for me to write that so that it doesn’t sound like sarcasm (actually, I think a better word would be “insincere”, don’t you think?). How about this: Vicky Jo, you are a knowledgeable and insightful source for me, and I consider you an online friend who has been of tremendous help to me and others in the past. I respect your opinion, although I sometimes hold it in reservation, as I do with many people who I also regard as experts since often they will disagree with one another on particular points of issue. :P Does that sound more genuine? Maybe it makes a difference that I am saying it directly to you rather than in the course of lecturing someone else. And you are correct, I wasn’t being sarcastic (or insincere). >> I sooo want you to retain your own power. (Maybe that's a stupid thing to say, because of *course* INTJs are unlikely to give away their power when it comes to areas of intellectual independence, but it nevertheless still gratifies me to read it. I should probably be more flattered that I have won your respect -- that's not an easy thing to earn I know.) << And how can one NOT retain their own power, Vicky Jo? I mean it is always there. We simply either choose to wield it, or relax it, and sometimes it is better to just float. To see how the current is flowing. It doesn’t mean we have to keep floating. After we know how the current flows, we know how to use it constructively. People may not be aware they have their own power, but they are mistaken. They just don’t see it yet, or haven’t built confidence of how to wield it. But its there. Always. And that means there is always a way I (or anyone) can influence their environment. And on earning respect with me… maybe it used to be hard for people to earn when I was, say, 14. Now I simply give it to them freely when I first meet them. I may not necessarily believe everything they say, and I may change my tune after they lose my respect, but I generally give people enough rope with which to hang themselves. It’s up to them to value it enough to return that respect and goodwill or not. If not, then you are right—it is generally very difficult to win it back. On an intellectual level, you are also correct, people can lose it a lot faster from me if they are arrogant, negative, and don’t know what they are talking about. If they simply don’t know what they are talking about, as long as they listen, or communicate constructively and improve, I generally don’t hold that against them. Especially if they generate good ideas or insights, even if they may be shaky on the facts. I believe that souls are inherently good, and that their embodiment into human incarnate is sometimes difficult to reconcile. Sometimes it takes a strong soul for us to overcome our own humanness. When we fail, the burden rests on society to push back on the human side of things for that person. In extreme cases, we perceive evil from people who have serious difficulty reconciling their soul’s needs with their human needs. I have often wondered how much of a person’s TYPE preference is influenced by their soul, and how much is influenced by their physical brain structure. In your case, I saw very early on that you are indeed very passionate about TYPE, and take it very seriously. You’ve grown your knowledge base over a period of time through both direct experience (observing, interacting) and academic pursuits (papers/conferences/challenging existing theory), meaning you have gained both structured (top-down) and empirical (bottom-up) knowledge in your field. I’ve never perceived you as someone who was arrogant with your knowledge, even if you seem to rub some people the wrong way from time-to-time with your zeal for it (and let’s face it, most people do not like being corrected). More importantly, I have always seen overall goodwill with your intentions. I mean aside from the fact that you have to make money. Ha ha! We all need that. >> ;-D Mwuhh! << Lol! ok… Mwah! ;oP Ps. The only stupid people I've ever acknowledged encountering are those that call other's stupid. And I happen to share your view on multiple modes of intelligence, and have for a very long time. And one should never feel stupid about expressing her wants or indulging in her curiousities. As long as it isn't disrespectful or doesn't hurt others... Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:57:19 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f93607d6-a74e-4fb5-9f8f-b332b2621b2b Wyatt 2008-07-10T16:57:19Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#12a27621-ee6f-4f1e-a97d-a92264a4a01d Wyatt wrote: >>Vicky Jo is a knowledgeable and insightful source, and I consider her an online friend who has been of tremendous help to me and others in the past, and whose opinion I respect, but also sometimes hold in reservation, as I do with many people who I regard as experts since often they will disagree with one another on particular points of issue.<< I just turned a cartwheel -- I *love* that you don't completely trust me! That's such good news. Is there any way to write that so it doesn't sound like sarcasm? Because it isn't. I sooo want you to retain your own power. (Maybe that's a stupid thing to say, because of *course* INTJs are unlikely to give away their power when it comes to areas of intellectual independence, but it nevertheless still gratifies me to read it. I should probably be more flattered that I have won your respect -- that's not an easy thing to earn I know.) ;-D Mwuhh! Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:19:22 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#12a27621-ee6f-4f1e-a97d-a92264a4a01d Vicky Jo 2008-07-10T02:19:22Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#be9ec481-9c4b-486d-86c5-bc03c587e0a1 >>I just don't see it.<< I can see you don’t. And I don’t know that there is much I nor anyone else can do to help you see it until you learn to help yourself by seeing someone else’s view before creating meaningless arguments. Or at least learn to see alternate views. You seem more interested in creating arguments and discord rather than resolving problems, sharing knowledge, or shedding new light on meaningful topics. Which is why I don’t really take what you say seriously, or invest much time into you. >>You say "DomNe-----fairy festivals, bookstores" and whatever else you mentioned.<< That is your interpretation of what I said. Now go back and read what I actually said. It’s up there, a couple of posts ago… >>Not saying it couldn't happen, but there are other types that would be just as much into that stuff. Hey, I never said I had anything against fairies. But there are other psychological types that are just as likely to be into that.<< You are being redundant. And am I hearing my own echo? I just said that. Again, go back and read what I actually wrote. You are not doing a very good job of that to date. >>By itself, the caption means nothing. What matters is how they determined thier type, and how correct that seems to you (based on the real material, I'd hope). Since you probably want to know, I figured out my type by talking to Vicky Jo and reading some of the materials I've just mentioned. << Well, I didn’t really want to know, but since you have opened it and offered it up, you are correct. Vicky Jo is a knowledgeable and insightful source, and I consider her an online friend who has been of tremendous help to me and others in the past, and whose opinion I respect, but also sometimes hold in reservation, as I do with many people who I regard as experts since often they will disagree with one another on particular points of issue. But you haven’t mentioned any materials. You are still not doing a very good job of reconciling what is in your head with the reality of what you or others have written. Inventing what you WANT to have written in the past and referencing that when it doesn’t exist is never a good thing. Instead it brings into question your integrity and capacity for being any kind of knowledgeable or reliable source. >>So I can't create long-winded rationales that go wrong in the first sentence.<< I know. It seems you have problems with rationale in general. >>And honestly, I don't give a shit if what I wrote wasn't structured.<< See what I mean? And, yes, I can see that you don’t care. Also, your intent would seem more genuine if you wouldn’t fly off the handle in anger with profanity. And what are you really angry about? I think you do care that you have difficulty structuring meaningful and relevant correspondence. >>Could you possibly be any more patronizing?<< Yes. I could be. But I won’t. And although I do not employ it often, I am quite good at it when provoked. Especially when the person I am conversing with demonstrates condescending arrogance with their opinions, little understanding of opposing points of view, and tries to slam other people’s opinions when they have such a limited knowledge set themselves while demonstrating little interest in contributing anything positive. Such people show very little maturity and it is difficult for me or anyone else to take them seriously. >>Also, I actually read that conversation; I'll let Vicky speak for herself, but I'd say she was way more objective than you.<< Now that’s an interesting statement, coming from someone who has trouble being objective themselves, and as you have just demonstrated three times, what you “read”, what you “interpret” and what you “remember” are often three completely different things. >> She had actual reasons for why she thought that person was an improvisor. << Vicky Jo’s suggestion was that this person COULD BE an ESFP rather than an ENFP based on what I was telling her. Not that she thought she WAS one way or another. Furthermore her “reasons” were grounded in her knowledge base versus her perception of what I was communicating to her by written word on a posting, which I am sure she will point out is not the most effective way to judge a person’s TYPE. I know this because she has said as much, and as well, common sense would agree. You would do well to heed the common sense part for your own studies before leaping off and randomly judging people you meet or hear about online from limited information. >> You were biased because you obviously wanted that person to 'be an N'.<< Your statement is in error. I didn’t “want” that person to “be” one way or the other. I simply believed she was from what I knew of her, seeing certain subtleties, and what I knew at the time about TYPE. As we are good friends now, talk regularly and dance together often, I know her much better and she has certainly proven out to indeed be an ENFP, and inline with what I have learned from Vicky Jo and also from other authors/experts she and others have recommended to me about processes and TYPE in general. >> As far as I'm concerned, what you just wrote there was a cheap shot. << What in the world are you talking about, now? Please focus. It sounds like you are going off on a tangent about something you think was said, but you’ve had only part of the conversation with yourself while leaving everyone else out. Including me. You’re not making any sense. And we’ve already established the fact that what you think you read and what is actually written are often two completely different things. Separate still from what you actually remember. This is the 5th time. Your marks aren’t looking very good. >> If you prefer feeling, your preferred feeling attitude is a valid part of your perspective. If you don't prefer feeling and are unconscious about it, you will be extremely biased about something (in your case, your perspective seemed incredibly skewed by what you wanted----Fi). << Have you considered that YOU may in fact be the one extremely biased? Your perspective does seem incredibly skewed… I’ve seen nothing but defensiveness and aggression out of you on anything I’ve read from you on this thread and others. What is it you are trying so hard to protect? >> I suppose I should take it in jest. The best part of the jest was when my ENTP sister read what you wrote with a hilarious pompous tone. << Glad I could bring some humor into your life. You sound like you may need it. Now, how do you know your sister’s type? Was Vicky Jo able to help you figure it out? I think we’ve already established that you need help with this. After all, you have only been studying for two years, and you seem to invent inferences and words that you thought you read that actually say something else or do not exist altogether. Furthermore, you needed help discovering what YOUR TYPE was. >> As for why I ignore what type people say they are, that's because people usually decide what type they are in the stupidest possible ways. << And who decides this? You? Do you possess the measuring bar for what is considered stupid and what is not? Have you put yourself out there and presented any findings or personal experiences to your peers for them to judge? What have you contributed? Anything? At all? >> #And why would you ignore it? After all, who knows a person better than THAT person? What you are really saying is that you doubt their knowledge and/or intelligence to come to a conclusion about themselves. Yet, YOU think YOU are more qualified to do so… over a person you DON’T know, from something they have WRITTEN… which is only ONE mode of communication. Yes, the internet has done much for allowing the exploration of TYPE, but it is NOT a substitute for FIELD DATA… where you sit in FRONT of a person and talk with them, take notes, and explore OTHER types of communication styles as well…. You should really understand the difference, here. On this basis alone, your argument is moot because you cannot PROVE any of it one way or another.# << >>That made me laugh my head off. << Why? I am not laughing. I don’t think someone who has solely educated themselves while also demonstrating trouble reconciling what was actually written with what they are able to interpret and recall is the best person to give advice to me (or anyone else) on what my or anyone else’s TYPE is. Especially when they have a propensity toward anger and flying off the handle with profanity when angry. >> Just cut the crap about calling certian types superfical, ok? << Really? Is that what you remember that I said? I never said that. Go back and re-read what I actually wrote, please. You are still not doing a good job. This is the sixth time in your latest response alone. Also, please go back and re-read what we talked about a few paragraphs above about your skewed perspective and extreme bias. I believe you are the only one here who has resorted to name calling. Several times. There may have been one other person who has done that. >>Ahhh, I see though. Being **deep** means being able to structure an argument.<< Uhh… no. What I mean when I say someone is deep is that they demonstrate a consistent desire and preference of looking beyond what is obvious, and that on some level they are able to wield either an understanding of cause-effect relationships and/or an understanding of “tuning” their emotions to other’s while influencing relationships, or some derivative thereof. >> Permit me to roll my eyes to the cieling, mister purveyor of deep-ness. And tell me, what is the bigger picture according to you? << I’ve already spent 10 minutes on you this time, for a grand total of 25. I’m not going to waste 5 more minutes of my time on you. You don’t seem interested in growing. But in case I am wrong, to get you started in the right direction, you should consider a little more tact with people in the future, and respect what they know, where they have been, and where they are coming from without trying to drum yourself up by slamming their opinions. You may come closer to getting the results you want. I’ll leave you to struggle with *that* thought on your bigger picture for homework… maybe your soul will grow some. >> Maybe the bigger picture is this great misunderstanding. I wasn't combative. I thought that what I was saying was so inherently obvious that it didn't need an explaination. << If you didn’t think nor feel you were combative, then why did you feel the need to state that you weren’t? Twice? Okay. I’ll give you the benefit of doubt and assume that maybe you really didn’t MEAN to be combative. Maybe you just lack a general understanding of how to correspond with people using common respect, or have a general problem with arrogance, and to a smaller but still quite considerable degree, ignorance of how to use language. >> Go ahead, be a dickhead about typos, but you still can read exactly what I said. I always dash these things off without proofreading, that doesn't make me combative. << Typo’s are certainly not what I had in mind. Please re-read what I said. That’s seven. You are really having trouble with comprehension, aren’t you? And you just ruined the benefit of doubt I just gave to you. Again. It was and is your overtones and how and what you chose (and are choosing) to say. That makes you combative. If I’m being beaten up by someone with a stick while they are telling me they are not combative, they are still being combative. If someone types arrogance and ignorance and insults me while claiming they are not combative, they are still combative. You also may want to re-read what we chatted about above regarding your skewed perspective and extreme bias. Also about your propensity to anger and profanity. Please watch the name calling. It’s not productive nor positive. Also, please don’t email me anymore messages. You don’t seem authentic in your intentions. I’ll respond to your posts when and if I choose. Due to the arrogance you started with and the ignorance and pettiness you ended with, you are at the very bottom of my priority list; i.e, conversing with you is not productive for me nor anyone here unless they care to take a lesson from your example in 1. undeveloped 3rd and 4th processes in self-proclaimed ENFP’s a. you struggle with your Te—it is why you have such trouble structuring your arguments, and why you are redundant—especially when excited. b. Your Si is quite undeveloped as you really haven’t developed a capacity for reviewing and recalling past experiences and collecting detailed data. 2. shadows a. Ni/Ne (negatively experienced, and assuming they can trust that caption beside your name)—you have trouble understanding Ni that INTJ’s wear so well… for instance, your insistence that I “wanted” my friend to be an ENFP… when in fact I just “knew” she was… even with as little information that I had about her I could still connect the dots, even as I was still learning the TYPE process language. I suspect you don’t really know what that is like because you haven’t consciously experienced it yet. You only seem to understand “wants” and “dislikes”, and valuing functions. In fact, you seem to be solely functioning on Ne/Fi. b. other shadow processes I suspect it’s something else, though. You seem angry in general. I wish you well with that. (Lose your anger and you may find that you are able to actually make meaningful contributions for everyone instead of patting yourself on the back while injecting negatively charged bias and discord into your discussions—this serves no one.) Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:28:22 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#be9ec481-9c4b-486d-86c5-bc03c587e0a1 Wyatt 2008-07-09T23:28:22Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#51eff7ed-80ea-40c5-9e8c-608f727a8f19 I just don't see it. You say "DomNe-----fairy festivals, bookstores" and whatever else you mentioned. Not saying it couldn't happen, but there are other types that would be just as much into that stuff. Hey, I never said I had anything against fairies. But there are other psychological types that are just as likely to be into that. #Lol… I did! Statistically, you are an outlier among all other ENFP’s with which I have talked (but you are not the only one). As I have implied, I have met most of them at dances, weird fairy festivals, etc. You will remain an outlier until I accumulate a broader base of ENFP’s who are not in those catagories. Which will accumulate slowly, because these are the places I go to meet them. Now, what I can do is subdivide the catagories a little farther, and separate YOU out into the MALE ENFP’s I have met and semi-talked with online. That would be two, which isn’t enough to assess. And assuming I can trust that caption beside your name, which according to you I should ignore. But, since you assume it has a correctness of half (I’m over looking the “less than” part since you were not specific, and I am giving YOU the benefit of the doubt that YOU are right HALF the time, which is still an “F”), And I can count you as half a person (statistically), and still appease you according to your own logic. O_o# By itself, the caption means nothing. What matters is how they determined thier type, and how correct that seems to you (based on the real material, I'd hope). Since you probably want to know, I figured out my type by talking to Vicky Jo and reading some of the materials I've just mentioned. #There are professional journals and conferences you can go to for correct terminologies and structured arguments—Ask Vicky Jo what/where they are. I do consider her an expert, as she has contributed and presented her viewpoints and papers to her peers in her field. She is also biased on a few things, like the N/S thing, and we have discussed this before on other threads, but she does well to champion what she believes. She seems to get the facts right when she states them, but I am leary as to whether she overcompensates with her voice, and therefore pushes opinion rather than fact... using her logic to support her feeling in some areas rather than being completely objective about it.# So I can't create long-winded rationales that go wrong in the first sentence. And honestly, I don't give a shit if what I wrote wasn't structured. Could you possibly be any more patronizing? Also, I actually read that conversation; I'll let Vicky speak for herself, but I'd say she was way more objective than you. She had actual reasons for why she thought that person was an improvisor. You were biased because you obviously wanted that person to 'be an N'. As far as I'm concerned, what you just wrote there was a cheap shot. If you prefer feeling, your preferred feeling attitude is a valid part of your perspective. If you don't prefer feeling and are unconscious about it, you will be extremely biased about something (in your case, your perspective seemed incredibly skewed by what you wanted----Fi). #So why is my guess not just as well? I guess they are what they say they are unless they show me some obvious reason to doubt them. And why wouldn’t I? I have no way of knowing who/what one knows, unless I spend a ridiculous amount of time pursuing it. After all, I am not publishing my findings for other’s to use as fact. I am simply exploring for my own use/pleasure, and what I state here is my opinion… sometimes in jest. Sometimes not. So take it in jest, or not. Then state your opinion. Anything else is futile# I suppose I should take it in jest. The best part of the jest was when my ENTP sister read what you wrote with a hilarious pompous tone. As for why I ignore what type people say they are, that's because people usually decide what type they are in the stupidest possible ways. #And why would you ignore it? After all, who knows a person better than THAT person? What you are really saying is that you doubt their knowledge and/or intelligence to come to a conclusion about themselves. Yet, YOU think YOU are more qualified to do so… over a person you DON’T know, from something they have WRITTEN… which is only ONE mode of communication. Yes, the internet has done much for allowing the exploration of TYPE, but it is NOT a substitute for FIELD DATA… where you sit in FRONT of a person and talk with them, take notes, and explore OTHER types of communication styles as well…. You should really understand the difference, here. On this basis alone, your argument is moot because you cannot PROVE any of it one way or another.# That made me laugh my head off. #Lol… and why would THOSE stories bother me? From someone who is not an expert, can’t structure a meaningful argument, and gets lost with the larger picture?# Just cut the crap about calling certian types superfical, ok? Ahhh, I see though. Being **deep** means being able to structure an argument. Permit me to roll my eyes to the cieling, mister purveyor of deep-ness. And tell me, what is the bigger picture according to you? #You sound combative. I think you ARE combative. I will tell you WHY I believe that. We are NOT in a live conversation. The things you say can be proofread BEFORE you hit the POST button. So I really do not have a problem being combative back. Yes, I proofread it. Not for grammer nor for spelling, though.# Maybe the bigger picture is this great misunderstanding. I wasn't combative. I thought that what I was saying was so inherently obvious that it didn't need an explaination. Go ahead, be a dickhead about typos, but you still can read exactly what I said. I always dash these things off without proofreading, that doesn't make me combative. Sun, 06 Jul 2008 04:17:37 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#51eff7ed-80ea-40c5-9e8c-608f727a8f19 Gabriel 2008-07-06T04:17:37Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b072e05a-94b1-44ad-a1c0-aa96376397b0 Of course it's irrelevant what others think of me. Why should I care? Those people whohave difficulties being around INTJs are ignoble masses. Socialisation is demonic corruption, as society is evil. Tolerance is absurd, and those who lack an a-priori understanding of what is on my mind are not worth of it. Sat, 05 Jul 2008 17:09:46 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b072e05a-94b1-44ad-a1c0-aa96376397b0 klaus 2008-07-05T17:09:46Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f7265047-4875-45e8-9299-62933dd92ef1 ENFP people are extraverted and optimistic, thus disgusting, and it's necessary to stay away from them. Passionate relationships are utterly perverse and disgusting. Sat, 05 Jul 2008 05:51:20 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f7265047-4875-45e8-9299-62933dd92ef1 klaus 2008-07-05T05:51:20Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#0bba98b8-148c-4222-a725-6de95443cf9b >> I wonder, what in the world would 'the norm' be for a type. Does that even exist? << Well, it would depend on how one defined the criteria. And by norm, I was actually referring to a statistical average, or median. And if the criteria were defined in a sensible way, then yes, there would exist an average. Whether it is observable, measurable or not, well… again, that depends on how you define it… >> I think not. << You are entitled to think what you will. So am I. You are not an expert, and your reasoning is not thought out enough to merit a following from me. Therefore I do put much credibility into what you think. From my end, I do not care if you follow my reasoning or not. I don’t really pursue this field other than to my own satisfaction and to develop theoretical knowledge and applied skill with which to make my own judgments. ;) >> What I'd really like is for you to also take down what I say as ENFP data. << Lol… I did! Statistically, you are an outlier among all other ENFP’s with which I have talked (but you are not the only one). As I have implied, I have met most of them at dances, weird fairy festivals, etc. You will remain an outlier until I accumulate a broader base of ENFP’s who are not in those catagories. Which will accumulate slowly, because these are the places I go to meet them. Now, what I can do is subdivide the catagories a little farther, and separate YOU out into the MALE ENFP’s I have met and semi-talked with online. That would be two, which isn’t enough to assess. And assuming I can trust that caption beside your name, which according to you I should ignore. But, since you assume it has a correctness of half (I’m over looking the “less than” part since you were not specific, and I am giving YOU the benefit of the doubt that YOU are right HALF the time, which is still an “F”), And I can count you as half a person (statistically), and still appease you according to your own logic. O_o >>Who are "enfp's online" are they people who have "ENFP" in a caption next to thier name, or say that they're ENFP, or people on an ENFP forum? My best guess for that stuff is that less than half of people are the type that they self-identify.<< Already addressed part of this, and Lol… yes, all of that, and in the end it is still just your “guess”. And we’ve already covered that you are NOT an expert, and from what I can tell from what you have written, you lack a meaningful method for siphoning out this type of data yourself. I do not understand why you would be so critical and judgmental on a FORUM where lay people usually go to discuss their ideas on these topics, sometimes with experts, sometimes with people like me (I am not an expert, either). There are professional journals and conferences you can go to for correct terminologies and structured arguments—Ask Vicky Jo what/where they are. I do consider her an expert, as she has contributed and presented her viewpoints and papers to her peers in her field. She is also biased on a few things, like the N/S thing, and we have discussed this before on other threads, but she does well to champion what she believes. She seems to get the facts right when she states them, but I am leary as to whether she overcompensates with her voice, and therefore pushes opinion rather than fact... using her logic to support her feeling in some areas rather than being completely objective about it. So why is my guess not just as well? I guess they are what they say they are unless they show me some obvious reason to doubt them. And why wouldn’t I? I have no way of knowing who/what one knows, unless I spend a ridiculous amount of time pursuing it. After all, I am not publishing my findings for other’s to use as fact. I am simply exploring for my own use/pleasure, and what I state here is my opinion… sometimes in jest. Sometimes not. So take it in jest, or not. Then state your opinion. Anything else is futile. In this particular case, some ENFP’s online suggested going to certain places to increase my chances of meeting ENFP’s. So I did. And I met several. I am not saying ALL ENFP’s like these places, nor that they are the only types there. I am saying my goal was to meet more ENFP’s in a setting in which their ranks were elevated larger than the approximate 3% of the general population they are. So I followed the advice I was given, and I met several. So the majority of the ones I know happen to like these places. Capice? >> I usually ignore that caption and wait until I can get a good guess. And then there's people I know in real life. << And why would you ignore it? After all, who knows a person better than THAT person? What you are really saying is that you doubt their knowledge and/or intelligence to come to a conclusion about themselves. Yet, YOU think YOU are more qualified to do so… over a person you DON’T know, from something they have WRITTEN… which is only ONE mode of communication. Yes, the internet has done much for allowing the exploration of TYPE, but it is NOT a substitute for FIELD DATA… where you sit in FRONT of a person and talk with them, take notes, and explore OTHER types of communication styles as well…. You should really understand the difference, here. On this basis alone, your argument is moot because you cannot PROVE any of it one way or another. If your goal is to be 100% correct, then you shouldn't believe ANYTHING anyone online tells you about their own type. Including your own opinions unless you know that person in real life. >> >>"..mmm... my 'mental picture' of an ENFP is actually modeled as a conglomerate of the ones I know in person. Mostly the younger ones 18-28 yr olds... a couple in mid 30's. And yes, I know some ESFP's too... they are different than the ENFPs. don't seem to be as curious or as clued in as the ENFP's beyond what is on the surface... but they do seem to be kind and gentle-hearted. fun even. in a surfacy kind of way..." "INFJ's on the other hand... omg... you'd better hang on! I have personal experience with one. she's as deep as I am. Except... she... comes to WAY different conclusions than I do on issues regarding some people... sometimes we overlap... but her approach to life is very similar to mine... I understand her... somewhat. until I don't. lol." << << >>Yes, good luck with that. << Mmm… Somehow, I really doubt your sincerity. >> I'm getting a bit irritated… << So what. You don’t HAVE to read it. You don’t seem capable of wielding the knowledge base you claim you have. Maybe *that* is what is irritating you. ;P >>… with your 'surfacy' vs. 'deep' stuff, and that the meaning of those words is all over the place. << Of course they are… read above about what I said about this forum not being a scientific journal on the topic. You shouldn’t EXPECT it to be either… it is not refereed. >> I mean, say, if you thought that Ayn Rand was 'deep', then I probably would disregard that judgement if you continued to pass it. << I’m not really into Ayn Rand. I do not know her and I do not know if she is deep or not. >> INTJs can be incredibly superficial, OMG, if you can take back that judgement, then I won't tell you THOSE stories. << Lol… and why would THOSE stories bother me? From someone who is not an expert, can’t structure a meaningful argument, and gets lost with the larger picture? >> By the way: I do realize that You would have to assume that my examples are correct to take what I wrote seriously. << Relax. I neither assume they are correct, nor take them seriously… >> In my defense of that double standard, I have read LOTS of material (been studying this stuff for almost two years now), so I believe my typeings are accurate. << Of COURSE you believe your typings are accurate! We all believe our own opinions ARE accurate… until we come to the conclusion they AREN’T. And a person can study until they are blue in the face. What matters is whether you UNDERSTAND and can APPLY the knowledge EFFECTIVELY. >> By the way, even in real life, for me, identifying someone's preferences takes anywhere from a week to a few months, and thier are people who's type I still don't know (so my 'examples' are people who's type I'm sure about). << Of COURSE YOU’RE sure about them. It’s YOUR opinion!!! Which means very little to me. But Kudo’s to you for having them, and good luck with *that*! >>*slam on brakes* -the "you" in the Ayn rand issue is meant to be hypothetical. << Noted. >> I don't mean to sound combative. << You sound combative. I think you ARE combative. I will tell you WHY I believe that. We are NOT in a live conversation. The things you say can be proofread BEFORE you hit the POST button. So I really do not have a problem being combative back. Yes, I proofread it. Not for grammer nor for spelling, though. Come on… are you REALLY trying to win points for these kind’s of lead-ins… >> I'm getting a bit irritated… << >> INTJs can be incredibly superficial << >> What I'd really like is for you to… << Sound’s like you have something against one (or more) INTJ’s… Lol… Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:47:08 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#0bba98b8-148c-4222-a725-6de95443cf9b Wyatt 2008-06-13T22:47:08Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#a8917465-bc66-4782-8cea-26d791d2b292 Hi Vicky! Sorry I took so long to answer. Nonetheless, thanks for taking the time to answer some of my concerns. Sorry, I misunderstood your statements about imagination and INTJs before. I definitely see now what you meant about being INTJ and right-brained. It would seem that INTJs are governed more by their left side. I'm still not very clear on the J/P aspect you are explaining, but if you point a finger in the right direction I'll be happy to research it further. I do agree with your statement, even though I'm a J, I do see myself as a P. Mostly because I do tend to procrastinate if I don't see an immediate importance in some matter, or the fact that even though I don't mind much abiding to someone else's schedule, at times I do prefer to do things at my own pace. As for my type preference, I read both the INFJ and INTJ profiles extensively and I identify myself mostly with INTJ. Nonetheless, I do see some INFJ traits which I identify myself with. However, I think it's due to a more developed F preference in me. Since I work as a manager in a business environment, I have learned to listen to what people have to say and try to empathize with them, praise people whenever I can (though I must admit I still need to work more on this), and of course try to make people feel more at ease with me whenever they want to discuss their concerns (and I say "try" because they're are definitely days that some of the more "charming" aspects of my personality are at their peak hehe). Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:39:38 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#a8917465-bc66-4782-8cea-26d791d2b292 Jaime 2008-06-10T12:39:38Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d275be95-fa7d-4005-8ab9-89160b6bff78 Jaime, a few quick thoughts off the cuff. First of all, you can take a hundred tests, and none of them may be accurate. Sigh! The official MBTI is about 70% accurate according to its own manual -- god only knows how flaky the free internet quizzes might be. And the MBTI is called an *indicator*, because it merely "indicates" what type preferences you *might* have. Sometimes it is accurate; sometimes it is wildly INaccurate. I can't tell from reading your message whether INTJ is a best fit pattern for you or not (and I'm not keen on guessing via email anyway). It's possible that INFJ is a better fit -- I've encountered that error quite often. An INFJ was telling me last Friday that he always got INTJ on the MBTI, and only by working with an experienced facilitator did he realize what his true pattern was (is). So that's the first thing -- be very skeptical of the "tests." The second thing is that I *never* said that INTJs don't use their imagination. OMG. That's their greatest gift. Albert Einstein (who Jungian Dr. John Beebe surmises had INTJ preferences) came up with E=MC with his logical mind. Good extraverted Thinking got him there. But what provided him with the critical missing piece of the famous formula was his iNtuition. He would imagine riding on the end of a light beam (as if it were a horse, I guess), and that's when he got the "aha" about squaring the MC. It came out of his imagination. My husband has INTJ preferences and he adores "Star Trek," not to mention all the sci fi writers. (If I were to make any distinction between INFJ and INTJ, it might be that INTJs often seem attracted to hard-core science fiction, while INFJs seem more attracted to Fantasy -- think Ray Bradbury versus Anne McCaffrey, albeit not absolutely.) So please don't extrapolate that anyone who doesn't love mermaids must ergo not have any imagination. Okay? The piece you bring up about J/P. Sigh! At times I just wish J & P would go away because it is so badly misunderstood. (Advanced type users almost *never* talk about J and P. It's as if those letters simply vanish.) From a Jungian perspective, an important thing to know is that IN_Js have an "irrational spine." What that means is that their dominant and inferior functions are *both* perceiving ones. As a pure technicality, they are perceiving TYPES, despite the J in their code. (As a corollary, IN_Ps have a "rational spine," meaning they are Judging TYPES, despite the P in their code.) As a result, INTJs experience themSELVES as "P," even while the outer world sees their "J." (And sometimes their own J & P wage internal battles.) Is this making sense to you? I realize it is probably unlike any type theory you have encountered before -- yet it is the Jungian method. Please share your thoughts. Sun, 25 May 2008 06:22:10 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d275be95-fa7d-4005-8ab9-89160b6bff78 Vicky Jo 2008-05-25T06:22:10Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#5b2ce922-a873-4e2c-9d67-04a99f93a001 There is so much interesting stuff in this thread. I'm rather new to personality typing, but I've been doing more research about it in regards to myself than into others. The only part of my four letters that makes me a bit uncomfortable is the J/P aspect (Yes, I'm INTJ according to three different tests). I do find that I have a very strong preference for J. However, I also find that I display P quite often in other areas of my life. So I'm not sure if it is that I like to keep things balanced in that aspect or maybe a mistyping has occured. To explain it in terms of what is commonly known as J or P traits: In respect to work I prefer to behave as a J. I like to have things decided as quickly as possible, like to have everything planned and organized and it bothers me to no end when I have a plan set out for the day and someone wants to change something or brings in a project that I was not expecting to do right then and there. However, on my personal life, I kind of bring it down a notch or two and even though I do plan what I want to do ahead of time I do plan to have enough leeway to provide any change of heart. I am more relaxed about it. On other topic...VickyJo was saying that INTJ and mermaids and astrology would not make a probable mix. Nontheless, I'm an INTJ and I precisely love Fantasy, Sci Fi and all that kind of crap. Not into astrology though, it doesn't strike me as interesting at all. I have two reasons as why I like it. First of all, my Mother liked those types of movies and books. So since we were children, we have been seeing all those types of movies. Star Wars, Star Trek, The Never Ending Story, you name it, we've seen it. So definitely, it has been a form of entertainment for me throughout my lifetime. The second reason, is that with those kind of movies my imagination soared. They made me wonder "what if?". If you think of it, that is one of our traits as an INTJ too, we like to see possibilities in anything. Of course, then comes the real world to shoot it down from the sky like a duck in hunting season, but whatever. lol Anyway, what are your thoughts? Tue, 20 May 2008 20:35:51 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#5b2ce922-a873-4e2c-9d67-04a99f93a001 Jaime 2008-05-20T20:35:51Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#2eca089c-612e-4159-8867-946453958d2c This is an aside but if there is a type that I myself as an INTJ am attracted to it's the INTP's. Not sure why I find that switch off of judgment for perception so alluring. I wouldn't want to be with an extroverted partner. They would simply irritate me after a while. Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:05:51 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#2eca089c-612e-4159-8867-946453958d2c $item.owner.firstName 2008-04-30T02:05:51Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#51e7a114-1830-49d2-91af-3ebd998f60e1 >>Who are "enfp's online" are they people who have "ENFP" in a caption next to thier name, or say that they're ENFP, or people on an ENFP forum? My best guess for that stuff is that less than half of people are the type that they self-identify. I usually ignore that caption and wait until I can get a good guess.<< YAYYYYY!!!! Me too. I know sooooo many mis-typed people, both online and IRL. People think the "test" gives them their type, or their ego picked out their type code, or their brother or teacher or even therapist or type practitioner! The bottom line is that most people simply don't grasp the model (the cognitive processes). Until you can talk to me intelligently about cognitive processes, my attitude is that you don't know type yet. That's my base standard. Everything else is pretty much noise, unless it's informed by a solid grasp of the building blocks of type -- the 8 cognitive processes -- including the ability to define them, recognize them, and identify them properly. Very few people are able to do that. It's the difference between fantasy and reality in my book -- the true measure of competence. -Vicky Jo, raising the bar for type understanding whenever possible ;-D PS: I agree that many ENFPs are mistaken ESFPs -- it's a common mis-type. And it gets compounded by INTJs whose egos don't want to admit they're interested in an "S" -- despite "S" being their own aspirational process. Go figure! Sat, 19 Apr 2008 19:56:44 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#51e7a114-1830-49d2-91af-3ebd998f60e1 Vicky Jo 2008-04-19T19:56:44Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#01a001c0-1f32-4fa9-8db4-e8546d1df41b *slam on brakes* -the "you" in the Ayn rand issue is meant to be hypothetical. I don't mean to sound combative. Wed, 16 Apr 2008 03:11:48 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#01a001c0-1f32-4fa9-8db4-e8546d1df41b Gabriel 2008-04-16T03:11:48Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3c96434c-821e-4131-b401-939b544454cb "Hmm. You're probably not within one standard deviation from the norm. you're a relative outlier. Haha, j/k. But maybe not. Who knows. You are one person. seriously, these are the places where I have met all of the ones I know in person (different from the ones I know online). And I targeted those places because they were suggested to me by more than a few other ENFP's online. I look for commonality when I solicit that kind of information from multiple people. Not saying it is right or wrong. Just saying that is what was common in what was suggested to me. I followed it, and I met more than a few that way. " I wonder, what in the world would 'the norm' be for a type. Does that even exist? I think not. What I'd really like is for you to also take down what I say as ENFP data. Who are "enfp's online" are they people who have "ENFP" in a caption next to thier name, or say that they're ENFP, or people on an ENFP forum? My best guess for that stuff is that less than half of people are the type that they self-identify. I usually ignore that caption and wait until I can get a good guess. And then there's people I know in real life. "..mmm... my 'mental picture' of an ENFP is actually modeled as a conglomerate of the ones I know in person. Mostly the younger ones 18-28 yr olds... a couple in mid 30's. And yes, I know some ESFP's too... they are different than the ENFPs. don't seem to be as curious or as clued in as the ENFP's beyond what is on the surface... but they do seem to be kind and gentle-hearted. fun even. in a surfacy kind of way..." "INFJ's on the other hand... omg... you'd better hang on! I have personal experience with one. she's as deep as I am. Except... she... comes to WAY different conclusions than I do on issues regarding some people... sometimes we overlap... but her approach to life is very similar to mine... I understand her... somewhat. until I don't. lol." Yes, good luck with that. Buuut... I'm getting a bit irritated with your 'surfacy' vs. 'deep' stuff, and that the meaning of those words is all over the place. I mean, say, if you thought that Ayn Rand was 'deep', then I probably would disregard that judgement if you continued to pass it. INTJs can be incredibly superficial, OMG, if you can take back that judgement, then I won't tell you THOSE stories. By the way: I do realize that You would have to assume that my examples are correct to take what I wrote seriously. In my defense of that double standard, I have read LOTS of material (been studying this stuff for almost two years now), so I believe my typeings are accurate. By the way, even in real life, for me, identifying someone's preferences takes anywhere from a week to a few months, and thier are people who's type I still don't know (so my 'examples' are people who's type I'm sure about). Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:55:35 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3c96434c-821e-4131-b401-939b544454cb Gabriel 2008-04-16T02:55:35Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#ebcc2310-e991-49b5-856f-b24ac9fadc35 Hmm. You're probably not within one standard deviation from the norm. you're a relative outlier. Haha, j/k. But maybe not. Who knows. You are one person. seriously, these are the places where I have met all of the ones I know in person (different from the ones I know online). And I targeted those places because they were suggested to me by more than a few other ENFP's online. I look for commonality when I solicit that kind of information from multiple people. Not saying it is right or wrong. Just saying that is what was common in what was suggested to me. I followed it, and I met more than a few that way. ..mmm... my 'mental picture' of an ENFP is actually modeled as a conglomerate of the ones I know in person. Mostly the younger ones 18-28 yr olds... a couple in mid 30's. And yes, I know some ESFP's too... they are different than the ENFPs. don't seem to be as curious or as clued in as the ENFP's beyond what is on the surface... but they do seem to be kind and gentle-hearted. fun even. in a surfacy kind of way... INFJ's on the other hand... omg... you'd better hang on! I have personal experience with one. she's as deep as I am. Except... she... comes to WAY different conclusions than I do on issues regarding some people... sometimes we overlap... but her approach to life is very similar to mine... I understand her... somewhat. until I don't. lol. Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:53:44 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#ebcc2310-e991-49b5-856f-b24ac9fadc35 Wyatt 2008-04-15T22:53:44Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#bd2b3455-0a36-4d74-9060-ee814c3d939a Serious? I'm an ENFP, and I haate dancing. Wierd fairy festivals? I love fairy myths, but I don't really like the festival stuff. I only know what burning man is because I have an _SFP aunt who goes to those events. Older extraverted sensing types are often drawn to the wierdest of the wierd (a good bit about this in Von Franz's lecture on the inferior function). I also know an older ESFP woman who is completely absorbed in the whole quantum mysticism thing (one of her favorite books is the record of Dr. Emoto's water 'experiments'). Personally, I think this stuff is harmless but I don't buy any of it. I'll admit that I suspect your 'mental picture' of an ENFP is actually an improvisor. Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:30:16 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#bd2b3455-0a36-4d74-9060-ee814c3d939a Gabriel 2008-04-14T21:30:16Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#be356c76-e110-41bb-89e3-1e70ee81aa5e ENFP's hang out at dances, theatres, and weird fairy festivals... lol INTJ's hang out at high tech conventions and conferences. Also bookstores. And dances... lol. I am into an INFJ lately... anyone have any experience with them... lol she's as complex as I am... except different... Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:06:21 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#be356c76-e110-41bb-89e3-1e70ee81aa5e Wyatt 2008-04-11T14:06:21Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#566ad877-ef84-41ab-94a2-d54ca7ccd44f where do you INTJ males hang out ???? Fri, 11 Apr 2008 02:13:30 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#566ad877-ef84-41ab-94a2-d54ca7ccd44f dami 2008-04-11T02:13:30Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b80970bf-d500-4b46-8ba7-8a71bbcb4122 Hey ENFP Dreamer, Just wondering how it's going with INTJ bloke...?? Best wishes, D. (INTJ, 36, Male, UK) P.S. Ummm...where do all the ENFP females hang out? Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:08:29 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b80970bf-d500-4b46-8ba7-8a71bbcb4122 David 2008-04-10T20:08:29Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#44a18c7f-6763-4b7f-a4d0-ab9052f87080 Not every INTJ *wants* to be in charge. My INTJ husband was put in charge of a team and he hated it! Too much responsibility; too many headaches. He was lucky to meet somebody else who recently left management to become an independent consultant, and found he likewise hated *that* role. He didn't like being that much of a loner. They traded! This was years ago, by the way. Apparently they were commiserating in a bar when the lightbulb turned on -- the next day they both marched in to the Big Boss and proposed it to him. Eventually he agreed, they traded, and everybody was happy. My husband hasn't been in management since. Neither does he operate "behind the scenes." He's a corporate trainer -- right in front of the class on a regular basis. I also heard a story once about a company owner who fell in love with the MBTI after a weekend of it and decided to reorganize *every* team in the company to accommodate personality types. Amazing, hunh? Utter Failure. Abysmal. As It Should Be! There's a lot more to type -- it doesn't determine skill, development, even ability! Not every person is an ideal specimen of their type pattern! So.... I appreciate the grandiosity of what you are suggesting, and.... type is not the tool to go by. We have to find some other method to choose who runs the planet. :-( -Vicky Jo, mbti facilitator and type contrarian ;-) Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:59:54 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#44a18c7f-6763-4b7f-a4d0-ab9052f87080 Vicky Jo 2008-04-01T01:59:54Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b7a9c4a2-456f-4d21-a4c5-aee53383c578 "The INTJ's need to be in charge. We would maximize the usefulness of the entire planetary system, inside and out. In theory. Implementing it may be a little difficult, though. A natural lifetime might pass before we've accumulated enough insight and useful data that we need. :o)" grrrrrr, no they don't! heh, if corporations really wanted to use type, they should put all the behind the scenes types in leadership positions! And I'm actually half serious with that one. wouldn't it be nice to have a 'power' that doesn't inevitably 'corrupt'? Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:59:41 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b7a9c4a2-456f-4d21-a4c5-aee53383c578 Gabriel 2008-03-31T21:59:41Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6a73c841-f477-4db3-8446-2438b8958098 Thanks! And you're right, Thinking is not my best gift. I am, however, a big believer in diversity and honoring / respecting all gifts. ;-D Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:35:19 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6a73c841-f477-4db3-8446-2438b8958098 Vicky Jo 2008-03-27T22:35:19Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9acf4493-6d07-4674-bd93-967574036e52 all the best with your career Vicky Jo. don't think too hard (it isn't your best gift) ;D Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:22:19 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9acf4493-6d07-4674-bd93-967574036e52 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-27T19:22:19Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#065ac58e-a9ab-4023-8819-622070a09375 I get along with ENFP's just fine. Some of my best friends were ENFP males, though it's usually hit or miss with males. In fact my brainstorming sessions with them tend to be quite enlightening. When I was young (K-3) my best friend AJ and I created a whole universe. The records of those sessions eventually were expanded upon by me and evolved into what I hope will become a book series. ENFP females... they tickle something inside me. My RADAR gets all wonko. I can't tell the difference between flirtation and plain friendliness. This eventually leads me to over-analyze it and play it safe, and just stay friends. (Bad move if you ask me.) The last time around though, I did state my feelings, but she was taken. (In my defense she had rings on all her fingers! How as I supposed to know I should have been looking for a diamond instead of looking at that oh so sexy aquamarine? Or was I too busy glancing down her shirt? Or both?) I was put down gently, but god was that awkward! But I learned something, you CAN ask a girl if she has a boyfriend and not get your head blown off. *head smack* So obvious! Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:05:06 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#065ac58e-a9ab-4023-8819-622070a09375 Andrew 2008-03-26T23:05:06Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#8d7c5bde-73d3-40bb-9f23-58d942d09504 So I've waited a week to hear from you, and there's been no answer. And I find that interesting, because what I asked you to do is what INTJs *love* to do -- which is to use their extraverted Thinking. I asked for your "rationale" behind a choice, a decision you made. Extraverted Thinking is probably the process INTJs are best known for. While it isn't their best gift, it IS the gift they meet the world with, so it tends to be their "signature." Extraverted Thinking includes: convincing with logical arguments being guided by organizing principles and criteria focusing on cause and effect looking for logic ...and more... Now, I'm not saying you are incapable of this -- in fact, our American culture (assuming that fits you), treats the function of extraverted Thinking like the golden calf we must all fall down and worship. Every citizen is expected to have good use of extraverted Thinking, and is fair game for humiliation whenever they do not. (When I do workshops about type and ask people to organize things, people generally start using extraverted Thinking even when it isn't their favored process -- that's how strong the cultural influence is.) So I look to how well a person *enjoys* using it -- is it fun, does it come naturally, does it make them feel good when they do it. You asked me >>why liking mermaids, paying attention to planetary alignments and their relations to humanity, and writing poetry, seemingly disqualifies me as an INTJ?<< First of all, one thing I have learned from working with type is to "never say never." It is *possible* that those behaviors could belong to someone with INTJ preferences -- and yet I suggest it isn't very LIKELY. Why? Because most of those things are not very "logical." Mermaids are probably a myth, humanity in relation to planetary alignments is not very scientific, and writing poetry is often a fairly emotional activity (my own interpretation; I could be wrong). Most INTJs want to be known for their logical side, a la Spock -- they take pride in being seen that way. They *want* to be seen as "competent" – that is their preferred self-image. In terms of temperament, they belong to the category of personalities known as "Theorists." Their top values are for "scientific inquiry," "logical consistency," and their core values are for "mastery & self-control," and "knowledge & competence." Somehow, it's challenging to reconcile *mermaids* with "knowledge & competence." What I hear in those things you like (mermaids, paying attention to planetary alignments and their relations to humanity, and writing poetry) seems to mesh better with the category of personality known as "Catalyst." The Catalyst likes to engage in "imagining," tends to be "credulous," is "relationship centered," wants an "idealized & meaningful world," and has core needs for "meaning & significance," and a "unique identity." Thus, speaking as a professional self-discovery specialist, I would invite you to revisit the model and take a closer look at the patterns each temperament exhibits in order to accurately identify your best-fit, and strive to separate yourself from all the cultural influences that pressure you to be something you perhaps naturally are not. Last of all, let me make it really clear that all my doubts about whether you truly fit the Theorist pattern should in no way imply you are not a wonderful person. I apologize if you have found this exchange to be difficult and challenging -- I would like you instead to find it insightful and enlightening. ;-D Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:09:16 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#8d7c5bde-73d3-40bb-9f23-58d942d09504 Vicky Jo 2008-03-26T18:09:16Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#e23c6eb0-9c41-4d3b-be34-2401f405991a ....still waiting......?? Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:50:46 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#e23c6eb0-9c41-4d3b-be34-2401f405991a Vicky Jo 2008-03-20T19:50:46Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#08d56338-3453-4244-a38f-b70752242152 Actually, I'd rather you answer my question first. ;-D Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:59:35 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#08d56338-3453-4244-a38f-b70752242152 Vicky Jo 2008-03-19T00:59:35Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#dc4d242e-9b00-4590-a76a-7c82a070fb08 o no.. please don't take me seriously! i shouldn't make light of 'black magic.' besides that i doubt i've the wisdom, i certainly don't have the nerve, to do anything of the kind. apologies for replying with a question, but before i rererepresent myself, would you explain why liking mermaids, paying attention to planetary alignments and their relations to humanity, and writing poetry, seemingly disqualifies me as an INTJ? Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:14:13 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#dc4d242e-9b00-4590-a76a-7c82a070fb08 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-18T19:14:13Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#74f76b7c-5692-4525-a051-54c6d2ea4076 Before you go "casting spells" on me, give me five logical reasons why INTJ is your best-fit pattern. Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:44:31 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#74f76b7c-5692-4525-a051-54c6d2ea4076 Vicky Jo 2008-03-18T18:44:31Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#7f472ea7-cc20-40a9-9cb1-362ce59985ab the voices forced me to read it Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:08:25 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#7f472ea7-cc20-40a9-9cb1-362ce59985ab $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-18T14:08:25Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#055a77ca-632f-49f1-a0dd-1b5c0740b5c8 i'm guessing you've not quite realised that i'm the one referenced in th thread as being a questionable INTJ.. because i like mermaids.. and see dead people :D Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:07:03 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#055a77ca-632f-49f1-a0dd-1b5c0740b5c8 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-18T14:07:03Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#15978aab-1e10-4e93-8fd8-1fcb82fbb2c0 Last I looked, nobody was *forcing* you to read the thread. "Take what you need and leave the rest" works for AA meetings. I commend the idea to you. Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:29:02 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#15978aab-1e10-4e93-8fd8-1fcb82fbb2c0 Vicky Jo 2008-03-17T20:29:02Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#48a1be6d-7450-451c-b954-11a7143d8b34 i'm so sorry moderator! the way Vicky Jo was carrying on i thought she was the mod! n sorry Vicky Jo but i'm afraid i was referrin to you o_O ok i'm outta here before the wicked witch starts choking on her stupid indignation again LOL n i'm not interested in private correspondence Wyatt. in people pleasers. setting me up like that for the sake of a thread on an internet forum was stupid. Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:26:39 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#48a1be6d-7450-451c-b954-11a7143d8b34 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-17T11:26:39Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#0aaff813-08b4-4891-87ef-2bb78ae013cb *blink* Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:13:35 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#0aaff813-08b4-4891-87ef-2bb78ae013cb Wyatt 2008-03-14T16:13:35Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#30499ed2-2862-49cf-87fe-2bd94aab0cbf awwww an INTJ after my ENFP heart i can't believe you apologised for hurting people's feelings you guys never cease to amaze me Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:59:10 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#30499ed2-2862-49cf-87fe-2bd94aab0cbf dami 2008-03-14T14:59:10Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b0bf2512-3596-4253-8fa5-0483616278e1 n now i wanna apologise cos i realise i would have hurt your feelings saying what i said. peace n you may never believe me, but i smell roses right now. subliminal messaging from another dimension.. bless this thread? Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:08:25 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b0bf2512-3596-4253-8fa5-0483616278e1 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-13T16:08:25Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#06bcd05b-0de6-4b5d-a208-f04822d254ac having not visited this tribe in months, i came back for some guidance.. but after scanning a few posts in this thread [yes i searched all the mermaid references] i have to say, Wyatt, dammit! you've got a big mouth! moderator, you're scathing.. and between the pair of you - whatever your agenda may have been - totally failed to justify your lame assumptions. unfortunate, cos i would really have appreciated this tribe's input. by the way.. seeing is believing. the truth is i feel like cuttin sick n swearing n namecalling but i'ma cast spells on you instead ;D n lemme guess.. you're piscean o_O Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:58:08 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#06bcd05b-0de6-4b5d-a208-f04822d254ac $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-13T15:58:08Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#e1e6bcc7-5d6e-4e0a-8b81-e71e113feea9 I remember reading that INTJ girls tend to go for similar NTs or INTJ males while INTJ males don't care as much. Sun, 09 Dec 2007 17:47:15 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#e1e6bcc7-5d6e-4e0a-8b81-e71e113feea9 $item.owner.firstName 2007-12-09T17:47:15Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#040bb6d0-dc2b-449f-95e7-a2b973fbe676 Hi Chanel, << I think the INTJ-ENFP connection is only "ideal" if both parties can appreciate each others differences. >> I agree with this whole-heartedly. I also believe that depending where one is at in their own personal growth, this will affect what they value in a mate. For myself, I have always been somewhat "balanced". I am unbalanced at times, but pretty well rounded as a whole, particularly for an INTJ. However, my choices of career, downtime activiities, etc. always put me out of range of entire personalitiy types, so my exposure to them was limited. In addition, I often get an over abundance of the thinking and judging aspects in my life, not to mention these are my modes as well. Exploring these other types (NF's) from an empirical aspect was very limited until I discovered them, understood what they were, and could conciously place myself in their vacinity to experience them. I do very much appreciate what they have to offer, and how they are able to lead me when I let them. Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:04:54 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#040bb6d0-dc2b-449f-95e7-a2b973fbe676 Wyatt 2007-11-25T15:04:54Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#475c7e2a-6877-4ebb-ba5a-292d0961d3dd 'I'm really curious as to what accounts for this difference within the INTJ ranks. Does it correllate with T-heavy INTJs versus N-heavy INTJs? ' As a T-heavy INTJ (as high as100%) I figured I'd weigh in. I can understand the appeal of "opting out" of this pairing. Interacting with an ENFP or any feeling personality for that matter, can require tact that I don't always possess. Or have the energy to feign. Feelings get hurt and three days later I (maybe) realize why what I said was offensive. But I could just be defensive after years of being labeled as cold, callous, self-centered or stuck-up. See how rough us female INTJ can have it?! It may just, as you said, revolve around which connection you choose to emphasize. Some INTJs will seek to balance out their personalities with complementing features (the ENFP) while others will seek refuge in the familiar (i.e. another INTJ). I think the INTJ-ENFP connection is only "ideal" if both parties can appreciate each others differences. Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:49:52 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#475c7e2a-6877-4ebb-ba5a-292d0961d3dd Chanel 2007-11-22T23:49:52Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1751a160-4dae-432d-81b2-716b783d3133 I don't. I'm taking them at their word and their test results, just as I take the others in this forum or elsewhere. How, in fact, could we know that anyone is what they say they are? All four letters are dead on but, as you've said, temperament is much more than the sum of four letters. So in answer to your question, they could indeed be Improvisors. And by "trust", I don't mean that they are in the habit of having others make decisions FOR them, only that they seem to place a great deal of faith in the advice of "experts" when making their own decisions. Another thing is just how they decide if a person is an expert or not. It seems that the expert's air of confidence when giving advice, as well as their age, goes a long way towards evaluating their competence for ESTJs. You know, that kind of "if you don't know it, fake it" attitude that some have? They often buy it. Sometimes a person may seem very transparent to me, as though for some reason I get the feeling they don't know nearly as much as they're pretending to, but the ESTJ I'm with usually gives the person the benefit of the doubt until there's a very good reason not to. I'm more likely to be skeptical - well, maybe not as skeptical as just open-minded, I haven't decided yet either way - about a person's knowledge, regardless of their credentials, until I feel they have proven their competence. On the "sizing people up" theme, I'll provide an example. ESTJ pulls into the parking lot of a computer store. Just decided they need a new computer earlier that day because the old one is getting outdated. Someone tries to race them to the parking spot. ESTJ is seriously annoyed by the lack of manners the other driver is showing. ESTJ races to the spot (this is a competition now, and they're going to win), cuts other driver off, pulls into spot, gets out of car, and walks to the store, while wagging finger at other driver. ESTJ has effectively enforced the unspoken rules of the parking lot and put the other person in their proper "place", supposedly making the world a better place for everyone. ESTJ puts courteous face back on, enters store, walks up to the most knowledeable looking salesperson, introduces self, explains situation in some length, with much charm, and asks for advice. Walks out with a computer in fifteen minutes. Seriously, this is not the experience of just one ESTJ but a pattern of behavior I have observed in people who identify themselves as ESTJ. In regards to the example and the "hierarchy" I previously mentioned, the driver is obviously below the ESTJ and the salesperson above, for those particular circumstances. I can only compare it to a military or police officer correcting a subordinate and then reporting in to a superior. That's what I meant by "sizing people up". Lol on your earlier post. Yes, I did realize the humor in expecting an ESTJ to make decisions like an INTJ, hence the smiley face :) I guess that was kind of my point - it's so interesting to see how different people make decisions and what they use as the basis for those decisions. And even more than using MBTI to understand myself, it's fascinating to try to understand other people and where they are coming from, which I think is the most important part of this whole thing. I find myself listening to conversations differently now. When my ENFP sister comes home from work and talks about the revelations she's had about herself and her feelings today, I used say, "that's great!" while thinking, "huh?". :) Now I can ask her how she came to those conclusions (since she's dying to tell me) and really listen, with more patience. I think the pitfall here is putting people into neat little categories and judging them accordingly. But if you use MBTI as a tool for interacting with others, not judging them or pretending to know everything about them, I think it can be very helpful. Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:07:25 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1751a160-4dae-432d-81b2-716b783d3133 Kristin 2007-10-31T23:07:25Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d46ab9b6-799d-41b5-816a-bee4be3844bd excellent quote! really gets the grey matter buzzing... Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:39:15 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d46ab9b6-799d-41b5-816a-bee4be3844bd $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-31T18:39:15Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1477d535-da25-41d2-9515-167e2a382c33 I'm wanting to take a closer look at your fourth reason. Introverted Sensing is usually about historic data -- i.e., a "proven track record." You are right that ESTJs "trust experts" -- it is an aspect of the Stabilizer pattern. If I were invited to a job interview with an ESTJ, I would feel obliged to let them know about my credentials and wealth of experience in a particular area, not to mention educational experience and credible references, and these would likely be vital criteria to my landing the job. I would strive to dot all my i's and cross all my t's, and I would expect to be scrutinized. The question mark that shows up for me around your description is the part about sizing others up "almost instantly." That doesn't feel right.....? It sounds more like an Improviser pattern to me... I have a Stabilizer sister and an Improviser brother-in-law. He's the "man of action," very tactical, quick, pragmatic decisions -- while she's the queen of logistics and cooperation, making sure the kids have scout uniforms, the insurance is adequate, the bills are paid. He's tactics, she's logistics -- and they divvy up their responsibilities accordingly. I confess I'm wondering what you base your beliefs on that these are ESTJs you're describing. How do you know they are *not* Improvisers? Wed, 31 Oct 2007 05:51:55 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1477d535-da25-41d2-9515-167e2a382c33 Vicky Jo 2007-10-31T05:51:55Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#33503f84-941b-42db-a944-edc5e2d88932 Whooof! I got chills reading that post. If it took three times to get it right, it was worth waiting for!!! As a coach, whenever I get chills, it usually means someone is sharing a very deep truth. I always report back to clients when I get them, because it lets them know I heard compelling wisdom in what they have shared. Your message reminds me of Rumi's quote: "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there." --Rumi If you can hang onto the idea of what you wrote, through thick or thin, you will model something compelling to everyone around you. Wed, 31 Oct 2007 05:19:16 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#33503f84-941b-42db-a944-edc5e2d88932 Vicky Jo 2007-10-31T05:19:16Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#366ee7d8-c625-4043-b4ff-defd2035dbfb <<I wonder how you could contribute toward creating a world where *everybody* gets to be "right"?? ;-) >> This is like the third time I've tried this message. Each time I try it just doesn't come out right, so I'll try to keep it as short and simple as possible. What type/preferred processes/temperament/interaction style means to me -- all this newfound knowledge, which I'm still in the process of assimilating (so apologies to anyone if I'm getting it wrong) -- is that sometimes there is no "right" answer. Or, alternatively, sometimes the "right" answer doesn't matter, and what matters is something else - diplomacy, tact, cohesion, whatever. I am beginning to understand that others don't necessarily think the way I do -- I mean of course they don't, I knew this before. But now that actually *makes sense* in a profound, digestible manner. So even if someone is "wrong" in my view, I can see why they might think they're "right" - or they may not even think in terms of wrong and right to begin with. And therefore I can change my approach to reach out to them in their "language." In a way, what all this knowledge allows me to do is to translate two foreign languages - my own instinctive, natural language and the other person's - or to make two different programs compatible. Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:08:42 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#366ee7d8-c625-4043-b4ff-defd2035dbfb $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-31T01:08:42Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c225d668-f179-4b34-80a0-2bac6a77c02c Lol!!! Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:34:28 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c225d668-f179-4b34-80a0-2bac6a77c02c Wyatt 2007-10-31T00:34:28Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#986e1f2d-ff4c-4469-be01-32229111f5d1 ...and how will this contribute to your lifelong growth? Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:28:08 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#986e1f2d-ff4c-4469-be01-32229111f5d1 Vicky Jo 2007-10-31T00:28:08Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#de687b75-6a91-440a-a77f-93f5b723681d <<I wonder how you could contribute toward creating a world where *everybody* gets to be "right"?? ;-) >> The INTJ's need to be in charge. We would maximize the usefulness of the entire planetary system, inside and out. In theory. Implementing it may be a little difficult, though. A natural lifetime might pass before we've accumulated enough insight and useful data that we need. :o) Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:54:47 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#de687b75-6a91-440a-a77f-93f5b723681d Wyatt 2007-10-30T22:54:47Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#39ab2d69-eb09-4aa3-be51-3c66aba70979 LOLOL! I love what you say here: >>I often hear them make comments such as, "Research? Research what? These people work with this stuff all day! Who better to help me find the best computer/TV/etc?" To which I think, "You, of course. Who better to trust than yourself?" :) << Can you hear the "why can't everybody be like me?" implicit in that? After all, an INTJ's primary gift is trusting their Inner Knowing, so naturally it seems strange to put faith anywhere else. I mean, shouldn't everybody rely on their iNtuition? It would rub you the wrong way indeed for anyone to trust something different. In turn, we can readily imagine how ESTJs would likewise make *you* "wrong." Can't we?? I wonder how you could contribute toward creating a world where *everybody* gets to be "right"?? ;-) Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:41:13 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#39ab2d69-eb09-4aa3-be51-3c66aba70979 Vicky Jo 2007-10-30T22:41:13Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f5cf14bf-2b5f-4044-83d1-96498a64079d Ungghhh.... I believe all ESTJ's in my life are going to hell. My boss is one. I think he is going there, too. My blood pressure elevates the closer within proximity he gets. I think I see his elevating, too. He is much older. He will go first. :o\ Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:48:14 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f5cf14bf-2b5f-4044-83d1-96498a64079d Wyatt 2007-10-30T21:48:14Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#7c695cfc-eea5-467a-b44d-c98dbacfbc0b <<yeah, right, wyatt. no one's even talking anymore. is this the *sound of internal processing?* you can, no wait, yes. you can hear a pin drop . . . >> And, oh yeah, ANYthing on an INTJ group where the title starts, "Analysis of..." is SURE to get a lot of postings... r21left titled it right, how do you thing he got so many postings sooooooo fast!!!??? :o\ Lol!!! Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:26:32 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#7c695cfc-eea5-467a-b44d-c98dbacfbc0b Wyatt 2007-10-30T21:26:32Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#635aa247-0265-4ddc-8e9d-90243df0d989 <<LAST BUT NOT LEAST (are you sick of me yet?) -- why might an ESTJ do impulse buying? I confess I don't know for sure, but three possibilities show up for me. 1) an ESTJ's tertiary process is extraverted iNtuiting, which loves what is "emergent"; 2) extraverted Sensing is an ESTJ's Witch/Senex, so they may be impulse buying through their (and the culture's) Shadow; 3) the ESTJ actually has ESTP preferences (and thus are mis-typed), and they are showing the Tactical brilliance of their temperament. >> Very interesting. I can especially see how extraverted sensing would cause someone to "seize the moment" and act quickly to make decisions. Might I add a fourth possible reason? I've noticed that ESTJs (as Guardians) seem to size others up almost instantly and place great trust in people they have deemed competent. I know at least three ESTJs (or at least, supposedly ESTJs) very well and, from my observations, they are all extremely respectful to those they have placed on such a pedestal, but to those they have placed below them in their "hierarchy" they often feel the need to put them in their place and assume a much more superior attitude, adopting the role of rule enforcer. Perhaps this is why they enter the military and police force in such great numbers. Anyway, when making important decisions, such as large buying decisions, they feel very comfortable trusting the "experts" as long as they have sized them up to be confident and knowledgeable. I often hear them make comments such as, "Research? Research what? These people work with this stuff all day! Who better to help me find the best computer/TV/etc?" To which I think, "You, of course. Who better to trust than yourself?" :) Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:05:52 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#635aa247-0265-4ddc-8e9d-90243df0d989 Kristin 2007-10-30T20:05:52Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#34713572-e12f-4669-96d7-8135207df8bc I'm glad the workbook was great! We all love hearing that (and it fits my opinion too). If you want to "give back" a little, you can give a glowing review on Amazon. Also want to mention that the workbook is by Berens and Nardi -- Nardi has INTJ prefs and I hate to overlook his contribution. (I'm sure you INTJs understand. ;-D) Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:49:24 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#34713572-e12f-4669-96d7-8135207df8bc Vicky Jo 2007-10-30T18:49:24Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#8a2c7bed-4e60-481d-9dfd-8d0c43d67bf1 >>You missed me by about a week - I've already purchased a copy. Funny moment - I bought that workbook and another book (one that's based on the MBTI types as if I+N+T+J are all individual processes) It couldn't laugh the pass test! There were so many misconceptions and misleading tidbits, it was almost criminal.<< Clarification: it was the second book that was bad, not Berens' workbook. Berens' was great. Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:13:47 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#8a2c7bed-4e60-481d-9dfd-8d0c43d67bf1 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-30T17:13:47Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d49385d5-7350-445f-a1a3-2b2f1aa3d046 >>Should you choose to purchase a copy of Linda's excellent workbook, I would be most grateful if you used my Amazon affiliate link: tinyurl.com/6um25 You might consider it payback for all the free information I'm generously sharing. And, my INTJ husband will thank you. ;-D << You missed me by about a week - I've already purchased a copy. Funny moment - I bought that workbook and another book (one that's based on the MBTI types as if I+N+T+J are all individual processes) It couldn't laugh the pass test! There were so many misconceptions and misleading tidbits, it was almost criminal. Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:09:56 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d49385d5-7350-445f-a1a3-2b2f1aa3d046 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-30T17:09:56Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9d452652-9284-4aa2-a630-db05aca73bf3 (a shameless promotion moment) Should you choose to purchase a copy of Linda's excellent workbook, I would be most grateful if you used my Amazon affiliate link: http://tinyurl.com/6um25 You might consider it payback for all the free information I'm generously sharing. And, my INTJ husband will thank you. ;-D Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:40:52 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9d452652-9284-4aa2-a630-db05aca73bf3 Vicky Jo 2007-10-30T09:40:52Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#7e1f44c3-9054-4515-bf40-8d05620b0d1e Hey Kristin, Glad to have you back! Uh oh, I feel a rant coming on! ~WARNING: long post ahead (get a beverage)~ Yes, it's true that many mis-types do include a J/P mix-up or an I/E mix-up, though not always. After all, my ISFP brother-in-law got ENFJ results on his assessment. :-/ I credit it to the construction of the MBTI, which sorts people into those four discrete categories of letters and doesn't really track the cognitive processes underneath. Thus you encounter people saying [for instance] they are INTJ/P's -- which makes utterly no sense since these are vastly different types in terms of preferred cognitive processes! An INTJ's dominant cognitive process and greatest gift is introverted iNtuiting, which is the *sixth* process for an INTP, and vice versa for INTP's dominant cognitive process and greatest gift of introverted Thinking (sixth for INTJs). How can anyone be a hybrid of both?!? Probably one of the biggest problems in the type community is believing the MBTI and its four dichotomies *IS* type. I'm soooooo sick of hearing about psychological type As Told Through the MBTI Framework. Those four categories reflect brilliant instrument construction, but do virtually nothing toward helping people grasp the underlying theory. MOST misunderstood are the first and last letters in the code, which aren't really "scales" in their own right, but "attitudes" intended to describe the "direction" of the functions. I/E lets us know whether our best gift is an introverted or extraverted one; J/P lets us know which one we prefer to show the outer world. And -- as with every other letter in the code -- they reflect *preferences* (not prisons!). WORST OF ALL is the J/P scale, which has been distorted and blown completely out of proportion (especially considering it was Isabel Myers' unique contribution and not part of Jung's original theory). People imagine that J/P describes whether they are messy or not, decisive or not, want closure or not, are flaky or not, are bossy or not, are hide-bound or not, are wimpy or not. (Accordingly, many who prefer Feeling suppose they are "P" and many who prefer Thinking suppose they are "J" because of a cultural conflation.) Those two letters (J/P) have become the "dumping ground" for everything that's bad about type. :-( Here is a message Dr. Linda Berens posted to another board about the J/P scale -- it's easier than writing my own version of it. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Now, on to the message about J and P. You are right in not trying to sort on J and P. This was a post I was going to make separately because it is one of the main problems I see everywhere, not just on this list. We have to remember from the Cognitive Dynamics model (and Myer's addition/development of Jung's theory) that the J-P dichotomy was added to point to which cognitive process is used in the external world. It has very little meaning in and of itself. The more you say about J, you are likely talking about _S_J and the more you say about what P means, the more you are really talking about _N_P. What J tells you is that the individual is likely to enter a situation already having a perception of what is likely to happen since their preferred perception is introverted (Si or Ni). These types tend to deal with the outer world with a judging process (Te or Fe) in part to make manifest that perception. Thus there is a tendency to live life more like a marching band where what is going to happen is determined in advance and there is more structure. (However, whenever anyone is using Te (as an INFP would in an aspirational role), they are going to look "J". So an INFP might look structured to others. For one thing, an INFP might have learned early on that if they don't set boundaries they will lose themselves to others and their important values won't be realized.) Whe P tells you is that the individual is likely to enter a situation with a set of principles (Ti) or sense of the relative value of things (Fi) and then check what is happening in the moment for consistency or congruency. They tend to live their outer lives like a jazz band, responding to what others are playing, yet sometimes using recognizable patterns of play (I know there is a music term for this, but it escapes me). And, whenever we engage in Se or Ne, we especially look spontaneous and adaptable. To add in the Interaction Styles model, much of what has been said about J is really about directing preferences. When you put people into groups by J and P, most of the time those with a directing preference will be overpresented. The exception will be the ISFJs and ESFJs, and they will go along with the definitions of the group given the Stabilizer talent for logistics and liking of predictability. However, if you group people by Directing and Informing, you are likely to find those with ESTP and ISTP saying similar things to the "J" group. The same thing happens with "P" groupings in workshops. In the P group will be the ESTPs and ISTPs, but they are likely to be in the minority so all that is said is not likely to be fully representative of just "P". So my soapbox is to stop talking about "Js" and "Ps" as types, they aren't types. J and P are just pointers that help unlock the type code. AND this distinction is the least valuable in helping people sort out their best-fit type. In my workshops, I don't do J-P activities because it misleads people and I don't explain J-P as a continuum or as something in and of itself. There are very few descriptors that work for J and P. Stick to these from my book, "Understanding Yourself and Others, An Introduction to the Personality Type Code," page 15. (if you use these in something you write, please give me appropriate attribution.) Those with a Judging preference: Like things settled, seeking closure for closure's sake Tend to enter a situation having already anticipated how it will be and settle on an action before the event Prefer to plan ahead and follow the plan or guideposts, living in a planned, orderly way Like to live a more structured life Orient to deadlines early (especially _S_J) Schedule and organize projects and tasks to avoid anxiety and overload Those with a Perceiving preference: Like being adaptive, going with the flow Tend to enter a situation with set beliefs or frameworks and to be responsive to new data Prefer to keep options open for change and adaptation, letting life happen Like to live in an open-ended way Are energized by deadlines and last-minute rushes Access many projects and tasks randomly to avoid the anxiety of missing opportunities. Linda +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Soooooo..... to summarize for myself -- I rarely look to J/P for signs that someone is mis-typed (although it may ultimately be reflected in the J/P scale). Instead, I look at what interaction style "energy" I feel the person radiate, and I pay attention to what cognitive processes they display, and whether they seem to be expressing the values of their particular Temperament. If those things don't add up, I look close and ask questions. Whenever it *does* turn out to be related to the J/P scale, I blame the construction of the assessments for the way they sort people and frequently blow it when it comes to this scale. And then people take their assessment results as the "truth" (especially the free online quizzes) and don't know enough to question them. LAST BUT NOT LEAST (are you sick of me yet?) -- why might an ESTJ do impulse buying? I confess I don't know for sure, but three possibilities show up for me. 1) an ESTJ's tertiary process is extraverted iNtuiting, which loves what is "emergent"; 2) extraverted Sensing is an ESTJ's Witch/Senex, so they may be impulse buying through their (and the culture's) Shadow; 3) the ESTJ actually has ESTP preferences (and thus are mis-typed), and they are showing the Tactical brilliance of their temperament. In comparison, INTJs' prefer to be brilliant with Strategy (a dimension of the Theorist temperament). Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:34:17 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#7e1f44c3-9054-4515-bf40-8d05620b0d1e Vicky Jo 2007-10-30T09:34:17Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b214762e-544d-45fc-b4f4-35770eb59ed5 Hi Kristin, I hadn't heard that about ESTJs. Your Ni-Si comparison makes sense, as the Ni would take into account the long term interest while the Si would emphasize present need. But the ESTJ's impulsiveness seems irrational, and would not be expected of someone with a dominant Te. Maybe self-image has something to do with it, in that an ESTJ would want to appear as a shoot-from-the-hip, bold decision-maker - an image that is valued in this country? Tue, 30 Oct 2007 06:08:02 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b214762e-544d-45fc-b4f4-35770eb59ed5 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-30T06:08:02Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f832d5ac-2bac-4694-a3d6-27fa7685e6b0 Sorry, guys.. I didn't disappear - I've just been busy! But I'm really enjoying all of the postings... Vicky, your comments about mistype seem to often include a J/P mixup... it got me thinking a bit about an internal question I've had for a while - regarding the ways we all approach making decisions. I have noted that with some types, especially ESTJs in particular, people feel the need to make a decision so fast that they don't even stop to consider the alternatives necessary for making good decisions. For example, I've known ESTJs in particular to make huge buying decisions on the spur of the moment, with little or no research done whatsoever, based often just on the recommendation of a salesperson, and an intense need to make the decision NOW! When I compare that with the way that INTJs (at least, me - I'll let others speak for themselves) often make decisions, researching, comparing and weighing the consequences of different choices, and then making a final decision they can be confident of - well, it's enough to make us look like perceivers by contrast, isn't it? Certainly I feel compelled to make decisions quickly to reduce stress, but not by grasping at random straws. If there is no such thing as a gradient for J/P, or a so-called "strong" J or "strong" P, what do you think accounts for the huge differences in the methods used for making decisions and the relative time it takes to make them? I'm wondering if it has to do with Ni vs. Si, but not sure. Anyone have a better theory? Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:22:32 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f832d5ac-2bac-4694-a3d6-27fa7685e6b0 Kristin 2007-10-30T05:22:32Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#2cb4de93-2624-40fb-a7eb-6209fb2bae99 >>Besides, i don't know if you noticed that tribe has been down quite a bit, lately.<< Is this like how Friendster lost a lot of ground to Facebook virtually overnight? Is there a new forum site in town? Tue, 30 Oct 2007 04:05:07 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#2cb4de93-2624-40fb-a7eb-6209fb2bae99 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-30T04:05:07Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#4bf179a0-b68d-47f4-adcf-4fab26ea44a7 lol... I thought only INTJ's were capable of the *dark side* Give it time. I haven't even said all I want to, yet. I am trying desperately to get a paper written, practice my conference presentation that sums it up, and work on a magnetics levitation project for the Baltimore County schools before I start on a wind power project. In between, I am helping a young woman work on some of her issues in the evening, and somewhere in between I have to work. I will post more soon. i am sure others will, too. These things go on for months. Besides, i don't know if you noticed that tribe has been down quite a bit, lately. Give it time. We built it. They will come. :oP Tue, 30 Oct 2007 03:27:04 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#4bf179a0-b68d-47f4-adcf-4fab26ea44a7 Wyatt 2007-10-30T03:27:04Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#04faadc4-fe05-44cc-b2b3-699ff3ab42b1 yeah, right, wyatt. no one's even talking anymore. is this the *sound of internal processing?* you can, no wait, yes. you can hear a pin drop . . . Tue, 30 Oct 2007 02:26:57 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#04faadc4-fe05-44cc-b2b3-699ff3ab42b1 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-30T02:26:57Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f26890ee-9814-445b-a506-89f88585be42 No you're not. you're one of us. This thread is dedicated to your type, too. Only, there isn't very many of your type posting. So, POST AWAY!!! Besides, this one is so rich I am sure many of us will be adding comments for months to come. And all of the new people that come in and out. Fri, 26 Oct 2007 02:34:27 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f26890ee-9814-445b-a506-89f88585be42 Wyatt 2007-10-26T02:34:27Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#8ec18570-81e0-4a73-96c3-d0360bbb2c7f I become suspicious about a type pattern based on one of two things: either iNtuition throws something up on the beach for me to look at, OR something doesn't seem to be adding up right. Since I work with four different models and a decade of experience, I'm pulling reference data from a whole lot of different sources, and matching what I notice to the frameworks. (And let me say upfront that typing somebody via their emails is *not* recommended.) Sometimes the interaction style doesn't match, sometimes the individual seems to be engaging a process that seems contrary, sometimes they are honoring something counter to their Temperament values (for instance, someone who values membership & belonging over knowledge and self-mastery might be a mis-typed Stabilizer). The most obvious disconnects show up when you ask something like, "What are some examples for how you use your dominant process in a valiant way, and have since childhood?" If they scratch their heads and can't think of an answer, that's a clue something doesn't add up somewhere (assuming they know how to define that process of course). OR if you ask them to finish the sentence stem, "I am ___xxx____," in six different ways, that often demonstrates their dominant process. (It's best if that comes from the heart, rather than based on what they've read about their type somewhere, of course.) If what they claim doesn't match the definition of the process that's in their type code, something's wrong. For ENFP vs. ENFJ I would be looking for something that says "I am a fantastic brainstormer, and I live for possibilities" versus "I love connecting with people and coaching them toward happiness" (as merely one example). Essentially, every type facilitator develops their own method over time -- there's no set formula. At the end of the day, the type pattern either matches reality or it doesn't. So I'm always using a reality check. Fri, 26 Oct 2007 02:25:47 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#8ec18570-81e0-4a73-96c3-d0360bbb2c7f Vicky Jo 2007-10-26T02:25:47Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#19134fc5-1c2d-40d3-9742-17c7e3dce87d >>I just felt compelled to post to this thread that I hope I'm not monopolizing with this indepth discussion of what's going on in my situation. Not that you need my permission, but please feel free to post comments on it or just talk about other things we've all been discussing on this thread. I don't want to be a *conversation killer*. :) I'm just a guest in INTJ - land here. :) << I don't know about anyone else, but I'm learning a lot from your exchange with Vicki Jo, so please carry on with confidence! Besides, I think the conversation has evolved many times over from the original post, which is to say that wherever you wanna take it is fine by me :) (not to imply that I claim any ownership over this thread - all are welcome and all have an equal claim here) Fri, 26 Oct 2007 02:17:59 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#19134fc5-1c2d-40d3-9742-17c7e3dce87d $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-26T02:17:59Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#51e0b7a0-73e5-42f0-82e7-a05c99a3acca I just felt compelled to post to this thread that I hope I'm not monopolizing with this indepth discussion of what's going on in my situation. Not that you need my permission, but please feel free to post comments on it or just talk about other things we've all been discussing on this thread. I don't want to be a *conversation killer*. :) I'm just a guest in INTJ - land here. :) Fri, 26 Oct 2007 01:57:25 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#51e0b7a0-73e5-42f0-82e7-a05c99a3acca ENFP dreamer 2007-10-26T01:57:25Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c75ba4b2-21de-48ee-9f6b-e145a4374853 Vicki Jo, I'm curious, what triggers in you the suspicion that someone might not be the type they claim to be (i'm asking generally, not in reference to anyone on this thread)? Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:21:04 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c75ba4b2-21de-48ee-9f6b-e145a4374853 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-25T23:21:04Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3ca4c8ee-d031-4484-8026-0dd9336c8e46 You can ask, sure. I do not relate to ENFJ preferences at all. My ex-boyfriend was an ENFJ. I have 2 good ENFJ friends. I don't relate to being so organized (my house, car, desk are a total mess), so structured and black and white. And most of all, i don't relate to the popularity and social climbing stuff. Ugh. My ex used to come across so fake sometimes and was always trying to people please. I love starting things and hate finishing them most times. I just grew up around so many J's I got good at faking it and imitating some of their ways. I guess it helps with school, but for example, right now, I am pushing right up against a huge deadline applying for job. But I'm procrastinating, playing on tribe, and pretty overwhelmed with having 100 irons in the fire right now. Plus, I'm writing on an INTJ list, so I think I'm trying to communicate in more organized way, if I can. I just struggle giving myself the permission to be my real free spirited self sometimes. I think I'm stressed about what could go wrong with Mr. INTJ, so I'm going to the mountains to get some of the carefree playfullness back. Does this help? Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:07:25 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3ca4c8ee-d031-4484-8026-0dd9336c8e46 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-25T23:07:25Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#af1e1ae8-6abf-41ee-ba2b-01a9fa5adb39 Boy, you're doing a lot of work! I'm impressed. I wonder whether it would be alright with you if I ask whether you've ever considered the code ENFJ as a possibility? Have you looked at those descriptions ever? We can just call it "due diligence" if you like. I have a girlfriend with ENFJ preferences who invariably gets ENFP results on the MBTI -- and she's a qualified practitioner. The gal I mentioned previously who said it "saved her life" to find her type code likewise thought she had ENFP preferences and discovered her ENFJ true self. If you've lived with the ENFP code for a long time and really identify with it, then I apologize. If you simply don't have access to any ENFJ "portraits," there's one at http://www.bestfittype.com/enfj.html Is it okay with you if we take a little diversion and just explore that question briefly?? Certainly I don't want to offend you by asking. Thu, 25 Oct 2007 21:36:34 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#af1e1ae8-6abf-41ee-ba2b-01a9fa5adb39 Vicky Jo 2007-10-25T21:36:34Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9f4d907c-171d-49ee-9e1c-492423b8fc1e Section 6 -- Summary *** In terms of what's getting triggered for you, we looked at his anima process a bit, we glanced at your common shadow process of extraverted Feeling, and then I wondered about your first shadow process, introverted iNtuiting. Yesterday I think we mentioned the presence of extraverted Sensing in both your patterns, so I think the only shadow process we haven't explored with you yet is introverted Thinking. (So I wonder how introverted Thinking might be showing up in this challenge for you? ;-D) I am using introverted thinking in writing all of this! I don't know for him. I see it in the moments I'm hyper analyziing, trying to weigh options and decide what to do. *** WHEW! It's been a wild trip. Yes indeed! I can't believe people actually want to know all this about me! Well, maybe they don't and it's just being put *out there* anyway. :P Section 7 -- Outro #### What I'm going to do is dig deep and go away this weekend. I'm off to the mountains to see the fall color and my girlfriend (platonic :) ) is coming with me. *** What processes is that honoring? (It sounds heavenly and I'm jealous, by the way. The "fall color" we're getting in Los Angeles is the color of wildfires. They came within about 50 feet of my sister's house, yikes!) My guess is Ne and Fi, the ole' faithfuls. I *love* the beauty of nature and the fall. Beauty is essential to me and very comforting in times of trouble. I *value* spontaneous trips like this, reflecting in all the natural beauty, plan to have an outdoor picnic, remember that this is who I am and what I love to do. Keeps me grounded and solid in my own identity. And it will be a shared experience with my friend, making it more precious! *** Here's a site I designed a few years ago -- it's an homage to fall leaves: www.domni.com/LLL/ Beautiful site!!!! So romantic!!! *sigh* *** The man is my INTJ husband, in case you've never seen one "in the wild." ;-) I think they are all wild!!!! :) *** Have your girlfriend help you do the balance activity if you want. I know how stimulating it can be for you to brainstorm *with* somebody, so that might make it a little more fun. That's the plan! I feel I should share that my friend who's joining me is an INFJ. I love you guys, too! :) Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:33:34 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9f4d907c-171d-49ee-9e1c-492423b8fc1e ENFP dreamer 2007-10-25T19:33:34Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#fdb8acef-464f-4481-adc0-5190d8871e1e Section 4 -- Article on Creative Judgment *** Following is an excerpt from an article that says something about this: "You may be irresistibly and mysteriously drawn towards this person; you may be filled with judgments, even hatred, towards this person; or you may feel both the attraction and the judgment simultaneously. You might even marry this person because of the attraction and then spend your life alternating between judgment and attraction/ love.. The basic teaching in all this is very simple. Whenever you feel a judgment towards another person, pay attention to the particular trait or traits that you are judging. If you feel that someone is untrustworthy and every time you think of him or her you get angry, ask yourself what the actual personality qualities are that push your buttons. You might find that your friend is selfish and self-serving and always puts himself first. It these are the traits that you resent then you have a remarkable gift coming because you are being given the opportunity of learning about selves that you have that are unconscious or disowned. What a gift this can be to you!.. *** What dya think of that? What does it bring up for you in terms of this challenge you are confronting? Something like this is happening part of the time. I react to shallowness, selfishness, narrowness, and/or rigidity that I perceive in him sometimes. But I really think the world of him, so it is paradoxical and confusing. I don't feeling judgement of him. I bet I have those traits in myself and I'm just seeing the mirror . . . _____________________________________________________________________ Section 5 – His Anima/Animus Process (Se) and My Insecurity #### Is it possible there still could be something going on in terms of unspoken mutual feelings if he's exploring possibilities with Ms. Drunk Blonde or pondering match.com? I wonder what you think . . . *** What I know about the IN_J pattern is that extraverted Sensing is the anima/animus process. We tend to project this out into the world and then fall in love with the object that mirrors it back to us. It might be about looks (blonde), it might be about body (boobs, ass, legs), it might be about power (Gloria Allred?), it might be about money (Paris?) -- whatever it is, he may be in the space where his "personal work" is about exploring that side of himself. Many many many people marry their anima or animus, so this is a very common thing. Well, my friends tell me I am good looking, which is encouraging in this area, I suppose. It may be problematic that I'm not as comfortable being really physical with him with no real committment. I'm not sure. I lack insight into whether he finds me attractive. I suppose the talk can help with this if we go to that subject (attraction). All this to say, I wonder if I could appeal to his anima/animus process or I just won't . . . *** The stupid thing to do is to take that personally and make it about YOU. The foolish thing to do is to think that if he were to reject you that is about rejecting YOU -- when in fact he is merely rejecting a certain opportunity to work on a particular part of himself. And he may not be ready to do that right now. The Universe has a different path in mind for him. Truthfully, it isn't about you at all. I wish I could reach such a place of objectivity! :) I am, alas, smitten and still hoping it can work out somehow . . . *** Over here, with my own type pattern and all, I think it's worthwhile to find that out asap so you can get in or get out -- but for an ENFP it might be exquisite torture to keep the question open-ended! It might be delightful keeping the question UNanswered for as long as possible! It can be thrilling and energizing to play with the idea, much as a cat might play with catnip. Well, not knowing is only better than knowing what I don't want to know if my feelings are one-sided. :( I don't like the torture. I much prefer the happily-ever-after. :) That's why I'm willing to finally go there, so we can see if it is something real between us and not just an idea in my head and heart! :) *** The only piece that I'm curious about is where the insecurity shows up. Using type, I'm wondering whether to "map" that to introverted iNtuiting...? Since that function is a shadow process for you, I'm wondering whether that is showing up as a voice of so-called "inner knowing" that says, "I *know* I'm not good enough" -- heard the above message from dad (and mom and stepmom at times) and internalized it *** "I *know* I'm not pretty enough"; heard this one back in the day on the playground and in middle school -- internalized it -- now feel better but feel like the ugly duckling phenomenon -- still battle it feel this one the worst in light of the Se appeal of Ms. Drunk Blonde. Biggest fear is that I won't be attractive enough . . . *** "I *know* he'll never be interested in me," yes, this one is the voice that fuels my pulling away at times. it's very closely linked to the fear listed just above this. Tie in to old VJ post (2 posts earlier) >>>> Oh my. You were raised by wolves. You have probably struggled with "type falsification" all your life. What I mean by that is that it probably wasn't "safe" to have your type preferences in your family (although your dad probably "gets you" better than anybody, since he is your "inverse type"). When one's type preferences are not honored in one's family of origin, it can be a struggle to get validated for one's innate gifts. So I'm not at all surprised you struggle with feeling insecure. Yes, so to add to the mix, introverted intuition is an internalizing of old messages for the non-validating 'rents. Oh, the joys of baggage. :) And Mr. INTJ has the joy of seeing me deal with its aftermath. I try to not fall to pieces over this stuff. I think I'm just seeing some of it get stirred up in falling for Mr. INTJ. Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:15:28 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#fdb8acef-464f-4481-adc0-5190d8871e1e ENFP dreamer 2007-10-25T19:15:28Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3ca708cb-c2ae-4d31-baae-1cd05ceee2f2 Hi Vicki Jo and all, Okay, I will respond to your post in 7 sections so you can see some Te on parade. :) I suppose I share these type of things you’ll read in the hopes that as a thread about INTJs and ENFPs pairing up together, I may verbalize something common to the processes of an ENFP who is nuts about the formidable INTJ. :) You are all getting *behind the curtain* and I sincerely hope this is beneficial to those who may read this. VJ, your remarks are marked with >>> for old ones, and *** for newer ones My old remarks are marked with ## # and my new responses are marked with nothing. Section 1 -- Intro >> Wow, it sounds like you are in touch with your life purpose! What a wonderful gift. I wonder how you can bring this skill you have with music to your relationship challenge? ### I am unsure I have found a way to do this yet. I feel that usually the insecurities, mishaps, and thwarted attempts at real intimacy have fueled the fodder for the songs so far. :) I often wish life could be one giant song and we could just use figurative language to share our real hearts on issues and break out of the prose box that feels so confining! I digress. I suppose I could use the forthrightness employed in developing song lyrics in talking to Mr. INTJ about how it feels to be with him, around him. Just don't want to gush or overstate too much, but see that courage and some risk-taking is needed here in order to grow. (I still have not talked to him about *it*.) *** At minimum, it does sound like you may have gotten some insights from bringing the perspective of music to this issue! How is this relationship like a musical challenge, and what skills might you bring to bear on it? The relationship is like a musical challenge in that it’s a duet, but it’s not all pre-rehearsed or planned out. There is a significant, dynamic element of spontaneous interplay, jamming together, if you will. I can know parts I intend to play ahead of time, types of parts I would be good at and could *show off*, but I don’t know all of what he is going to play. I can think about styles he likes, things I’ve seen him be good at playing (it’s ironic – he’s a musician, too), but I will play off of him and he will play off of me in the moment, too. There will be times he leads and times that I do. I think to date, it’s usually me who requests that we get together to play, and me that suggests most of the songs to play together, but I look for ways to hand the baton to him so he can play leads in those songs, that we can take turns and *collaborate.* Ooh, I love that word. And then I notice that after awhile, he has ideas of songs he wants us to do, and I hang back and let him initiate that. I purposely hesitate on leading vocals, allowing for space and delays, so he can lead the song and decide whether we go back and do another verse or do the chorus again. This is funny, because back in the spring, we actually got to do this together literally at church. And while I meant it figuratively up above, it actually happened this way in real life. It was a microcosm of the dynamic between us. I asked him to play with me, had a certain # of preset ideas to bring to the set, and he came with a few of his own songs. So I got my dose of collaborating (we sang most songs together and he played guitar on most) and then we each got to do some of our own. When I sang on my own and played guitar, he played guitar leads over me. He got to do 2 songs completely on his own, which I would assume pleased his little INTJ self. And I left the experience thinking I just got to live out my dream for 3 hours. I want to do music with my mate someday. I don’t think I realized how powerful that dream was until I was standing in it. And I thought, couldn’t we just do this forever? I only knew ahead of time (or correctly predicted) about 15% of what would occur in working with him. The rest of it, like all our conversations, took on a life of it’s own as we worked together, surprising both of us, I think. *** I'm seeing a pinball banging around in a pinball machine, crashing into various bells and whistles and setting off alarms. I notice how you're all over the place, trying to consider all the possibilities, second-guess all the possible outcomes. Yes, this is my hyper-analysis mode that my friends all warn me about. It’s my effort to get more control over unknowns so I can *feel* safer and like rejection is less of a risk. I’m trying to calculate my risk in talking to him directly about feelings . . . ______________________________________________________________________ Section 2 -- The Balance Exercise I will attempt to do in the mountains with my friend _____________________________________________________________________ Section 3 – The Dynamic of Pulling Away – Problems with Connecting? >>What are the rhythms that this relationship honors? #### Well, it's sure been a hell of a dance. I think he's pulling away and I must do so, too. Whether I do it forever to *save my skin* or I eventually come back in a few weeks to *have the talk*, we'll see. I'm thinking we're in some sort of high-stakes tango here. *** Now let's honor how this is an INTJ board devoted to type. *** I'm noticing the part you mention about "pulling away," so I want to make the observation that both of you experience extraverted Feeling as a shadow process. Extraverted Feeling is about "connecting," so I'm noticing the challenge for both of you around "connecting." Does that sound right? Yes. In terms of past experience, both of us have some fun family of origin issues and hurtful past relationship experience. *Cue the trust issues.* In a way, I think that’s why things have gone the way of the “be-friends-first” route. We both like our freedom and want to honor boundaries and space. I don’t like the idea of controlling anybody or being controlled and I’m sure neither does he. And since I don’t know how he *feels* about me, I don’t know how much or how often I should reach out. And he just doesn’t really reach out, but will respond well if I do. *** And I'm curious how often that struggle shows up for you. Is there a "pattern" to this struggle? If so, what are the precedents? What happens when this challenge arises? What ALWAYS happens when you are in this space? (Dya follow my drift?) Yes, there is a pattern. I pull away when I sense we’ve had a meaningful interaction of some kind because that’s my attempt to give an INTJ space who has told me he needs a lot of space. I definitely also do it when the fear comes up that I may be “too much” in my personality, “too disclosing” in my sharing, or if he says anything about interest in other women. If the fear of rejection wire in me gets tripped, then I pull away. I can then also become mistrustful of him inside, like he won’t care as much for me as I care for him, that he’ll lose interest and eventually going after someone else with more Se, or that he fantasizes about ending up alone b/c he’s afraid he doesn’t have enough patience to deal with a mate (now, this is when he’s gloomy on the subject). Now, the thing I wonder are these his “tried and true” statements crafted to *push people away?* The upshot is, I pull away when I think he wants me to, when I think I may get hurt (rejection/protect yourself stuff). I start getting pessimistic about the chance he could return my feelings. What *always* happens is I retreat inside myself to my fantasy world, listen to my favorite, fantastical music about hopes and dreams and love, and reconnect with my friends who by and large have a habit of *getting me* and encouraging me. And I pray a lot to turn the whole thing over to God. :) Sections 4 - 7 to come soon -- thanks again :) Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:39:28 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3ca708cb-c2ae-4d31-baae-1cd05ceee2f2 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-25T18:39:28Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#76bafdaa-82f6-4648-8a77-1f146812b935 test after test comes out ENFP. In reading in depth 4 letter type description, I wholeheartedly agree with the profile fitting the way I live my life. I'm learning more about the processes, but those jibe well, too. Everything from common interests, abilities, career paths, life choices, relationship dynamics, values, etc. fits in what I've seen described as ENFP traits. Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:35:29 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#76bafdaa-82f6-4648-8a77-1f146812b935 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-25T18:35:29Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#62c9a9b1-4da2-44d4-86cf-72b95b864559 Great! I'll be waiting. In the meantime, I wonder if you might share how you determined your type code? ;-) Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:17:04 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#62c9a9b1-4da2-44d4-86cf-72b95b864559 Vicky Jo 2007-10-25T18:17:04Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c0e86e75-aab2-485a-b3f4-bef3ecd90a08 Hi Vicki Jo, Okay, wow, thank you so much for investing the time and energy into your reply. I am reflecting on all that you asked. To answer your last question, it was very, very helpful. I will post a reply soon when I can coalesce my thoughts. Stay tuned. :) Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:18:53 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c0e86e75-aab2-485a-b3f4-bef3ecd90a08 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-25T13:18:53Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1f00950f-fc9c-403e-9e99-85f4027e3ac8 I will lead my remarks with *** to separate from the rest. Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not? >> Wow, it sounds like you are in touch with your life purpose! What a wonderful gift. I wonder how you can bring this skill you have with music to your relationship challenge? Okay, Vicki Jo, great question. *** You just made my heart go pitter-patter! Every life coach strives to ask great questions. ;-D I am unsure I have found a way to do this yet. I feel that usually the insecurities, mishaps, and thwarted attempts at real intimacy have fueled the fodder for the songs so far. :) I often wish life could be one giant song and we could just use figurative language to share our real hearts on issues and break out of the prose box that feels so confining! I digress. I suppose I could use the forthrightness employed in developing song lyrics in talking to Mr. INTJ about how it feels to be with him, around him. Just don't want to gush or overstate too much, but see that courage and some risk-taking is needed here in order to grow. (I still have not talked to him about *it*.) *** Splash! We just landed right in a coaching conversation! And.... hmmm... I notice I'm on a public board dedicated to INTJs and type. So that will take some fancy dancing to hold this space sacred to all. Let's see how we do. *** At minimum, it does sound like you may have gotten some insights from bringing the perspective of music to this issue! How is this relationship like a musical challenge, and what skills might you bring to bear on it? >>What kind of "song" would your conversation be? A ballad? A lullaby? At this point, it's a little like blues. I found out this weekend that Mr. INTJ had contact with Ms. Drunk Blonde and it stopped because she dropped the communication. He was, however, proud of himself for *putting himself out there* and was talking in a type of "I'm a player on the prowl" kind of way to our guy friends. *** Great metaphor. Sorry it's the blues. :-( Blues dilemma 1) I can't tell if this is bravado and bluster, masking some insecurity or fear and/or some defense mechanism he's employing because he may have some conscious (or maybe subconscious) interest in me and as scared as I have been. A risky and perhaps far-fetched option, but does allow for some hope that if I do talk to him in early November (as is the current plan) that he may feel something. or 2) Is it a face value situation? One where he doesn't see me as more than a platonic friend, no attraction to me, and I've been dreaming up all these *moments* I think we're having together over the course of the last year. One where he is *on the hunt* for a sumptuous barbie with some kind of strong S process. Oh, the bitterness and fear is talking here -- eck. :( So hence we have our current blues tune. Do I dare have this talk with him to be direct about my feelings and inquire about his in a few weeks? Will I *lose him* if I don't say something soon because it's actually possible he hasn't figured it out by now and is *moving on* to *look around*? He also actually talked about people recommending match.com to him and considering it. I wanted to wave my hands in the air and say "hello, I'm free here, so into you, can you see me and the unicorn horn?" *** I'm seeing a pinball banging around in a pinball machine, crashing into various bells and whistles and setting off alarms. I notice how you're all over the place, trying to consider all the possibilities, second-guess all the possible outcomes. *** Must be driving you crazy, hunh....? Egggssss-zausting! *** Were we coaching, I would have you do my balance exercise. It looks like this to do it solo: Take out a sheet of paper and write down the major question you are wrestling with. Is it "why aren't we together yet?"?? *** Next, identify major different possible answers. Here is how it might look --- please revise appropriately. (I will not asterisk the following section, so stay with me): 1) he is stupid -- an ignorant, clueless dolt. 2) he is madly in love with me and can't show it 3) he is only interested in sex (with blondes) 4) he doesn't even realize I'm interested 5) he does realize I'm interested and doesn't know how to tell me he is NOT 6) if I bide my time he'll come around 7) he only wants to ever be friends and I may as well get used to it 8) if I can't have him I'll die ............what have I left out?? 9) yours goes here 10) yours goes here *** So far so good?? *** Now, here's your homework. Go through each of these possibilities and consider them for yourself. For instance, 1) he is stupid. How does it feel to think of him as stupid? Do I want to be with a stupid person? What would a relationship with a stupid person be like? In your mind, fully commit to this viewpoint and notice what comes up for you if you were to live your life through this perspective. (Especially notice how it feels in your body.) Make some salient notes or scores about how you react to this experience. *** Do it again for EVERY ITEM you have listed. And Don't Mix Them Up. Don't mix up "stupid" with "I will die." Shake off each perspective before you enter the next one. If you left one out, add it to the list and explore it completely when you get there. *** I know that sounds like a lot of hard work, but hey -- you're doing it already, just inside a pinball machine and without being organized and deliberate about it. Aren't you?? (You started it with all the numbers up above!) So this is formalizing a structure for doing it, instead of the freestyle pinball machine way. *** After you've fully owned and tried on every one of the items, choose the possibility that felt best to you. The one that made you feel really good, positive, hopeful, upbeat, in your own integrity. (It's okay to take two or three possibilities and slice and dice them together until you get the best possible possibility. (Are you following me?) *** THEN..... (~drumroll please~) STAND IN THAT POSSIBILITY. Choose it consciously. (For the sake of this exercise, I will pretend you have chosen #1, that he is stupid.) *** NOW... the next step. *** Write down three things you will have to say YES to in order to REMAIN in this perspective. I.e., 1) I will say "yes" my having a high IQ and wanting relationships that honor that 2) I will say "yes" to joining Mensa 3) I will say "yes" to meeting men who are smart *** NOW... the next step *** Write down three things you will have to say NO to in order to REMAIN in this perspective. I.e., 1) I will say "no" to dating stupid men 2) I will say "no" to feeling stupid 3) I will say "no" to pretending to be stupid *** (I hope you're following this...) *** NOW, the next step. *** Put a pencil on the floor. This is a line. At this moment, you are on the "pinball" side of the line, the side that isn't serving you. It's making you crazy -- you're all over the place, you can't think straight. *** On this side of the line, you are about to undergo a ritual. Play music, put on an outfit to honor the occasion, set out some cheese and wine, light a candle, do whatever make it feel like a ritual to you. Now, hold up your paper and read aloud the perspective you are about to step into. Read aloud the three things you will say *yes" to. Read aloud the three things you will say "no" to. Then, when you are ready (and only when you are ready), STEP OVER THE LINE INTO THIS PERSPECTIVE. *** Now, celebrate. You deserve it! You worked hard. *** (If you should backslide, and slip over the line back into pinball land, just renew your vow. Step over the line again in the same way if you need to.) >>What are the rhythms that this relationship honors? Well, it's sure been a hell of a dance. I think he's pulling away and I must do so, too. Whether I do it forever to *save my skin* or I eventually come back in a few weeks to *have the talk*, we'll see. I'm thinking we're in some sort of high-stakes tango here. *** Now let's honor how this is an INTJ board devoted to type. *** I'm noticing the part you mention about "pulling away," so I want to make the observation that both of you experience extraverted Feeling as a shadow process. Extraverted Feeling is about "connecting," so I'm noticing the challenge for both of you around "connecting." Does that sound right? *** And I'm curious how often that struggle shows up for you. Is there a "pattern" to this struggle? If so, what are the precedents? What happens when this challenge arises? What ALWAYS happens when you are in this space? (Dya follow my drift?) Like I said, he is the only love interest I've ever had that I have *stood up to* and not just placated all the time. It seems as if our deepest, darkest issues are surfacing in the course of knowing one another, but maybe that can be a good thing and used so we can grow beyond their limitation and get some healing in those areas. I've had relationships where I can conveniently avoid such challenges, but not in knowing this guy. Is this a good thing? *** This is a GREAT thing. Other people are always *mirrors* for us, so it's fabulous to explore who you are through the context of this relationship. *** Following is an excerpt from an article that says something about this: "You may be irresistibly and mysteriously drawn towards this person; you may be filled with judgments, even hatred, towards this person; or you may feel both the attraction and the judgment simultaneously. You might even marry this person because of the attraction and then spend your life alternating between judgment and attraction/ love.. The basic teaching in all this is very simple. Whenever you feel a judgment towards another person, pay attention to the particular trait or traits that you are judging. If you feel that someone is untrustworthy and every time you think of him or her you get angry, ask yourself what the actual personality qualities are that push your buttons. You might find that your friend is selfish and self-serving and always puts himself first. It these are the traits that you resent then you have a remarkable gift coming because you are being given the opportunity of learning about selves that you have that are unconscious or disowned. What a gift this can be to you!.. Remember too that judgment and discernment are not the same thing. You may make a discernment about someone without having a judgment. Judgments are always more visceral. You feel them in your body whereas discernments tend to be more objective. Most people like to think that they are discerning rather than judgmental because judgments seem to be a bad thing to have. This prejudice against judgments is there because most of us haven’t learned yet how to use them creatively, how to make friends with them, and how to learn from them about our many disowned selves. So, pay attention to your judgments and use them constructively. Welcome to the world of creative judgment. ****************************************************************End Excerpt *** What dya think of that? What does it bring up for you in terms of this challenge you are confronting? There is a definite rhythm of connecting, something deep happening, either a moment of what my Ne says would mutual attraction or some age old subconscious issue being drugged up, and then space. Usually at least a week or maybe two. It's in this space where I take the issue to the higher power that I call God, pray and meditate, journal like crazy and invest in my key relationships. I usually end up getting stressed, worried, then breaking down and giving it all back to God and *suprise*, here Mr. INTJ comes again and we reconnect. *** It sounds like he is a wonderful TEACHER for you. Thank God (literally) for this gift! Is it possible there still could be something going on in terms of unspoken mutual feelings if he's exploring possibilities with Ms. Drunk Blonde or pondering match.com? I wonder what you think . . . *** What I know about the IN_J pattern is that extraverted Sensing is the anima/animus process. We tend to project this out into the world and then fall in love with the object that mirrors it back to us. It might be about looks (blonde), it might be about body (boobs, ass, legs), it might be about power (Gloria Allred?), it might be about money (Paris?) -- whatever it is, he may be in the space where his "personal work" is about exploring that side of himself. Many many many people marry their anima or animus, so this is a very common thing. *** The stupid thing to do is to take that personally and make it about YOU. The foolish thing to do is to think that if he were to reject you that is about rejecting YOU -- when in fact he is merely rejecting a certain opportunity to work on a particular part of himself. And he may not be ready to do that right now. The Universe has a different path in mind for him. Truthfully, it isn't about you at all. *** Over here, with my own type pattern and all, I think it's worthwhile to find that out asap so you can get in or get out -- but for an ENFP it might be exquisite torture to keep the question open-ended! It might be delightful keeping the question UNanswered for as long as possible! It can be thrilling and energizing to play with the idea, much as a cat might play with catnip. I don't know you, so I can't really say... Certainly I'm not inclined to spoil your fun! *** The only piece that I'm curious about is where the insecurity shows up. Using type, I'm wondering whether to "map" that to introverted iNtuiting...? Since that function is a shadow process for you, I'm wondering whether that is showing up as a voice of so-called "inner knowing" that says, "I *know* I'm not good enough"; "I *know* I'm not pretty enough"; "I *know* he'll never be interested in me," or whatever insecure remarks are being hurled at you from within. *** That's the place where I'm concerned you might be hitting/hurting yourself. *** So to recap, we've covered a lot of type ground. Let's map it all onto type. *** In the balance exercise, where you explore each of the viewpoints you are probably exploring various "consciousnesses." And you are exploring them through a structured Ti framework using a lens of Ne possibilities, which should be a cakewalk for you. Then you used some form of Judging to choose one (possibly Fi). Then there was a little bit of extraverted Thinking in coming up with 3 yesses and 3 nos, then putting the pencil on the floor and all that. There was some "segmenting." *** In terms of what's getting triggered for you, we looked at his anima process a bit, we glanced at your common shadow process of extraverted Feeling, and then I wondered about your first shadow process, introverted iNtuiting. Yesterday I think we mentioned the presence of extraverted Sensing in both your patterns, so I think the only shadow process we haven't explored with you yet is introverted Thinking. (So I wonder how introverted Thinking might be showing up in this challenge for you? ;-D) *** WHEW! It's been a wild trip. What I'm going to do is dig deep and go away this weekend. I'm off to the mountains to see the fall color and my girlfriend (platonic :) ) is coming with me. *** What processes is that honoring? (It sounds heavenly and I'm jealous, by the way. The "fall color" we're getting in Los Angeles is the color of wildfires. They came within about 50 feet of my sister's house, yikes!) *** Here's a site I designed a few years ago -- it's an homage to fall leaves: http://www.domni.com/LLL/ *** The man is my INTJ husband, in case you've never seen one "in the wild." ;-) *** Have your girlfriend help you do the balance activity if you want. I know how stimulating it can be for you to brainstorm *with* somebody, so that might make it a little more fun. I have no idea what is going on -- I know what I dream of and hope for -- but I am so far *off the map* I don't really know which end is coming or going . . . :) Help! *** How was this for you? Did you find it helpful? Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:15:39 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1f00950f-fc9c-403e-9e99-85f4027e3ac8 Vicky Jo 2007-10-24T21:15:39Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c3a08ab2-5e13-4c53-a384-0df57a36cdef >> Wow, it sounds like you are in touch with your life purpose! What a wonderful gift. I wonder how you can bring this skill you have with music to your relationship challenge? Okay, Vicki Jo, great question. I am unsure I have found a way to do this yet. I feel that usually the insecurities, mishaps, and thwarted attempts at real intimacy have fueled the fodder for the songs so far. :) I often wish life could be one giant song and we could just use figurative language to share our real hearts on issues and break out of the prose box that feels so confining! I digress. I suppose I could use the forthrightness employed in developing song lyrics in talking to Mr. INTJ about how it feels to be with him, around him. Just don't want to gush or overstate too much, but see that courage and some risk-taking is needed here in order to grow. (I still have not talked to him about *it*.) >>What kind of "song" would your conversation be? A ballad? A lullaby? At this point, it's a little like blues. I found out this weekend that Mr. INTJ had contact with Ms. Drunk Blonde and it stopped because she dropped the communication. He was, however, proud of himself for *putting himself out there* and was talking in a type of "I'm a player on the prowl" kind of way to our guy friends. Blues dilemma 1) I can't tell if this is bravado and bluster, masking some insecurity or fear and/or some defense mechanism he's employing because he may have some conscious (or maybe subconscious) interest in me and as scared as I have been. A risky and perhaps far-fetched option, but does allow for some hope that if I do talk to him in early November (as is the current plan) that he may feel something. or 2) Is it a face value situation? One where he doesn't see me as more than a platonic friend, no attraction to me, and I've been dreaming up all these *moments* I think we're having together over the course of the last year. One where he is *on the hunt* for a sumptuous barbie with some kind of strong S process. Oh, the bitterness and fear is talking here -- eck. :( So hence we have our current blues tune. Do I dare have this talk with him to be direct about my feelings and inquire about his in a few weeks? Will I *lose him* if I don't say something soon because it's actually possible he hasn't figured it out by now and is *moving on* to *look around*? He also actually talked about people recommending match.com to him and considering it. I wanted to wave my hands in the air and say "hello, I'm free here, so into you, can you see me and the unicorn horn?" >>What are the rhythms that this relationship honors? Well, it's sure been a hell of a dance. I think he's pulling away and I must do so, too. Whether I do it forever to *save my skin* or I eventually come back in a few weeks to *have the talk*, we'll see. I'm thinking we're in some sort of high-stakes tango here. Like I said, he is the only love interest I've ever had that I have *stood up to* and not just placated all the time. It seems as if our deepest, darkest issues are surfacing in the course of knowing one another, but maybe that can be a good thing and used so we can grow beyond their limitation and get some healing in those areas. I've had relationships where I can conveniently avoid such challenges, but not in knowing this guy. Is this a good thing? There is a definite rhythm of connecting, something deep happening, either a moment of what my Ne says would mutual attraction or some age old subconscious issue being drugged up, and then space. Usually at least a week or maybe two. It's in this space where I take the issue to the higher power that I call God, pray and meditate, journal like crazy and invest in my key relationships. I usually end up getting stressed, worried, then breaking down and giving it all back to God and *suprise*, here Mr. INTJ comes again and we reconnect. Is it possible there still could be something going on in terms of unspoken mutual feelings if he's exploring possibilities with Ms. Drunk Blonde or pondering match.com? I wonder what you think . . . What I'm going to do is dig deep and go away this weekend. I'm off to the mountains to see the fall color and my girlfriend (platonic :) ) is coming with me. I have no idea what is going on -- I know what I dream of and hope for -- but I am so far *off the map* I don't really know which end is coming or going . . . :) Help! Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:41:50 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c3a08ab2-5e13-4c53-a384-0df57a36cdef ENFP dreamer 2007-10-24T17:41:50Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9c2a4404-5531-4bfa-b50d-afdb35f30ff9 ENFP was the vibe I got also... I mean, never say never and all that -- just saying it set some alarm bells off. (By the way, I wonder whether you would be willing to substitute "mystical" for "flaky"?? It's somewhat less insulting to us Catalysts. ;-D) I tend to ignore whatever type people tell me they are until I figure it out for myself, which is supposed to be my job anyway after all.... Particularly messy are the situations where somebody decides what their pattern is based on what pattern somebody else says they are. So... there's a woman I know whose ex-boyfriend was probably ISFP. But she thought he was INFP. So the new boyfriend supposedly has INFJ preferences, but probably has INFP preferences. So everybody thinks HE can't possibly have INFP preferences because he's so different from the old boyfriend. It's a comedy of errors all around. One gal I know insisted her father had ENFP preferences, and she was unclear about her own preferences. With assistance from me, she came to decide that ENFJ fit her best (rather than the ENFP results she got from the online quiz) -- and, after describing their conflicts, she realized her dad had ESFP preferences instead. (By the way, she recently wrote that learning her best-fit type pattern probably "saved her life.") I tend not to take anybody's word for somebody's type unless they went through the same qualifying program I did, and even then..... When I first began practicing type 10 years ago, I found INTPs and ENTJs everywhere I looked. Later on, I realized nearly every INTP was ENTP instead, and every ENTJ was ESTP (ha!). I'm still challenged from time to time separating ISTPs from INTJs. As James Hillman says, "the types are not easy to spot." You start building an "encyclopedia" for the types over time. It becomes the basis for your psychological literacy. I don't put my faith in an assessment that's 70% accurate on the best of days. If I can't figure out somebody's type without it, I don't deserve to practice my trade. (Don't worry, I won't hold you to that standard. ;-D) Wed, 24 Oct 2007 07:16:04 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9c2a4404-5531-4bfa-b50d-afdb35f30ff9 Vicky Jo 2007-10-24T07:16:04Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#53aa519a-0f46-4151-b049-d8fe52ba132a err I meant Te is *just* a means to an end. (this is what happens when you post on the run, kids...) Wed, 24 Oct 2007 02:17:33 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#53aa519a-0f46-4151-b049-d8fe52ba132a $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-24T02:17:33Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b17c4119-04b4-4ed6-9444-2af3bb035cc4 <<clarification #2: Wyatt set off alarm bells for me when he said he knew an INTJ who was "right-brained" with interests in poetry, paranormal, astrology, and mermaids. THAT is the person for whom I question about their type pattern. >> Well, for one, *she* says she is an INTJ. I have struggled from talking with her whether she really is or not, although I must admit the logical stuff is there.. but her characteristics are much more flaky, and with much more emotion that she will ever care to admit. I would not doubt that she would be ENFP. I highly doubt she would be ESFP. She is WAY too abstract. I try to take people at what they say they are, until I see overwhelming reason to believe they are something else. With her, I could never really make out beyond a shadow of a doubt what else she may be. Now, I have interests in paranormal, poetry, astrology, and mermaids. I am skeptical of paranormal stuff, although I haven't really ruled any of it out. Except the Easter Bunny. I love certain poetry. It speaks to me, and I am able to speak with it in ways I cannot find a voice any other way. I haven't really ruled out astrology as being false, although i see no logical reason it should be true. Except that there could possibly be things out there we don't really understand yet. Like the paranormal. I love mermaids. Only because of the metaphors we have spoken with each other about using them. If It wasn't for those conversations, I don't think I would give a mouse's behind about them. But, I still wonder about right-brained/left-brained INTJ's. I suspect that INTJ's are the most balanced of all the types, as a whole. Maybe i am wrong. maybe not. Wed, 24 Oct 2007 01:40:35 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b17c4119-04b4-4ed6-9444-2af3bb035cc4 Wyatt 2007-10-24T01:40:35Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#a374524d-3f92-4658-8ebc-e2f9c3e56b95 >>For me, INTJs often impact others as the quintessential "left-brain" type -- which I find IRONIC since their dominant process is about as right-brained as it gets! In fact, many INTJs battle with this image, and many look more ISTJ than ISTJ! And why not? since Te is highly valued in this culture and Ni is the least acceptable (and I've always wondered how on earth INTJs mediate a balance between a thoroughly irrational, flaky dominant process and such a culturally-sanctioned, logical, rational auxiliary. Yikes!) << On the run, too, so this will be quick, but I wanted to illuminate something: Extraverted Thinking for me is not a means to an end. It serves whatever goal I need it to serve - whether it's planning a relocation, organizing mountains of data for a research assignment, or trying to find objective reasons why I need to extricate myself from a doomed project because I can foresee disaster and there's nothing I can do to prevent it. Of course, simply saying that I predict doom based on whimsical hunches will get me fired or stared at. It's not so much as balancing (because that implies the two functions are in tension) as it is finding a way to make one serve the other. I begin a project - Te. I check to see if it will succeed or fail - Ni. I predict doom - Ni. I need to correct it or find reasons to justify bailing - Te. Cheers! Wed, 24 Oct 2007 01:32:17 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#a374524d-3f92-4658-8ebc-e2f9c3e56b95 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-24T01:32:17Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b4964392-69c8-4fad-971f-8bcfcb8dc152 Not much time to write this, so apologies in advance. clarification: I don't see you as mis-typed, and haven't yet seen evidence that makes me question your choice of pattern -- not saying you is and not saying you isn't. clarification #2: Wyatt set off alarm bells for me when he said he knew an INTJ who was "right-brained" with interests in poetry, paranormal, astrology, and mermaids. THAT is the person for whom I question about their type pattern. Not that an INTJ can't spend time discussing virtually *anything* (which I was agreeing with, sorry it came off so vague) -- but to be *known* for that is what caught my attention. For me, INTJs often impact others as the quintessential "left-brain" type -- which I find IRONIC since their dominant process is about as right-brained as it gets! In fact, many INTJs battle with this image, and many look more ISTJ than ISTJ! And why not? since Te is highly valued in this culture and Ni is the least acceptable (and I've always wondered how on earth INTJs mediate a balance between a thoroughly irrational, flaky dominant process and such a culturally-sanctioned, logical, rational auxiliary. Yikes!) I don't think I've been expressing my views particularly effective here, and for that I apologize -- it does look like mixed signals. I still maintain that it's unlikely any INTJ would be happily identified by an interest in "mermaids, paranormal, astrology, poetry." And that's the issue I'm questioning. As far as ENFPs and ESFPs being so mis-typed? You have no idea. About a month ago I had an exchange that turned hostile with someone who claims to have INFP preference -- yet to all intents and purposes looks like ESFP from my side of the computer. Clue: she likes to go out dancing with her friends, served in the military, likes to write letters to politicians (an activist), AND can't be bothered to take a free temperament assessment. Another ESFP I met online (at least that's my guess) claims to have INFJ preferences, and says he got there by examining his "motives" to see what type he ideally would be. Sigh! I've met many ENFPs online, on the phone, and in person who are mis-typed (as well as many INFPs). At the last conference I presented at, I did a type facilitation with three persons who had all been assigned an "N" in their type code that came up "S" on my assessment -- and they *agreed* with the result. (I started to call myself "the S Catcher.") I've written a lot about this problem and posted some of it on my websites -- don't have time to repeat it here, but you get the idea. Let's just say there's a lotta type falsification goin' on... =8-O Wed, 24 Oct 2007 00:10:58 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b4964392-69c8-4fad-971f-8bcfcb8dc152 Vicky Jo 2007-10-24T00:10:58Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#00dfdedb-6cc6-4a25-8ac6-50a15a985f15 I think some of what we're saying is the same thing, although it's a little hard to tell exactly what stand you're making, if you are. You've gone from saying <<Even if you found an INTJ who *was* interested in poems, mermaids, and paranormal, I doubt they would *ever* admit it to anyone, certainly not to anyone via email.>> to << I maintain that an INTJ who puts a lot of stock in paranormal, mermaids, poetry, and astrology and looks "right-brained" deserves a hard second look for possibly being mis-typed.>> Being "interested" in something and "putting a lot of stock" into something are certainly two very different things. I agree with you that most INTJs would not put a lot of stock into the above mentioned things. I do not agree with you on your intitial statment that they could not be interested in those things. And by interested, I don't mean just for learning's sake, I mean having a strong attraction to those topics. <<You're 25, right? How long have you been studying type now....??>> Yes, I am 25. I have been studying temperament for only a couple of years, since leaving the teaching field. And if I were 50 with a PhD in typology, I would still say that persons of all types should feel free to be attracted to interests of all kinds and to not be embarrased to "admit it to anyone via e-mail." Agree with you completely on the J/P issue, your point is well taken. I should have been more specific. The three perceivers I was speaking of (who all happen to be Libras) are not just indecisive, they are okay with being indecisive. It causes them no stress to leave their options open - they actually experience more stress when they are forced to make a decision. It is the opposite with me - I feel stressed until the decision is made. (although I do sometimes go and revisit the decision if I get new information.) Your information on astrology and especially on Alice Howell's book was interesting to read and very much appreciated! I'm hoping to have time to read her book soon. <<while it isn't possible to link Astrology to personality type>> Who knows what's possible. I like to think we've only scratched the surface on what humans might know in the future (not that I'm necessarily arguing for a connection - I've seen as many exceptions as I have correlations, and there seems to be no current link.) You seem to think I've been mistyped as an INTJ - I keep an open mind, I'm willing to accept that possibility. I'd love to hear more on why certain types are mistyped so frequently. As for your statement about some INTJs being ESFPs instead... wow... can't imagine how those two would be mistaken. How did that person get so misdiagnosed? Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:27:59 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#00dfdedb-6cc6-4a25-8ac6-50a15a985f15 Kristin 2007-10-23T23:27:59Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f9a440e4-bbac-4bc4-9c00-b47b699065bf I don't know anymore... I guess I "do" INTJ because I am hardwired to engage predominantly via Ni and support that with Te. Doesn't mean I can't do Fe or Si or Se or any of the other cognitive processes. Still need to think it over... Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:24:23 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f9a440e4-bbac-4bc4-9c00-b47b699065bf $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-23T23:24:23Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#fa52b04e-1352-45ed-beae-e54147a972e8 >>Okay, so as a female, with a dominant process of Ne, I'm in trouble, or rather, I am trouble, eh, Vicki Jo? :) Yeah, you know you're trouble. ;-) >>I've acutally wondered if this part of me is annoying to Mr. INTJ. Not sure. Of course you've wondered. And I have No Idea. (See my unified theory of relationships above.) >>I think it maybe something behind the insecurities that keep bubbling up. >>I realize I have a hard time with his Se when it rears it's shallow little head! :) But then I remember that I'm not perfect and my struggles get really yucky, too. But it does leave me the lingering concern that he may prefer someone more sensing than myself. Oh THANK YOU for that! Extraverted Sensing is definitely gonna rile you. (Just like that "know-it-all" Ni irritatingly checkmates your Ne just when the party's getting started. ;-D) >> On a different note, I do, however, very much appreciate the coaching encouragements you shared with me related to believing in myself. I know that I have a tremendous struggle with comparing myself in my weak areas to others' strengths, which is never a fair fight. I was raised by an INTJ mom, an ISTJ dad, an ISTP stepfather, and an ESFJ stepmom. I was really an odd duck amongst most of this crowd and I'm sure it affects why I keep being drawn to INTJ's. Oh my. You were raised by wolves. You have probably struggled with "type falsification" all your life. What I mean by that is that it probably wasn't "safe" to have your type preferences in your family (although your dad probably "gets you" better than anybody, since he is your "inverse type"). When one's type preferences are not honored in one's family of origin, it can be a struggle to get validated for one's innate gifts. So I'm not at all surprised you struggle with feeling insecure. In the coaching I do, I work with my clients to be "normal." Mind you, I define that term very precisely! "Normal is that which functions in accord with its design." And I want my coaching clients to function according to their innate design. "ENFP" is your "flower of consciousness," and it needs to bloom for you to feel purposeful in the world. Even when circumstances or the environment don't encourage the flowering, it's the only way to realize your full potential. >> In terms of affirming myself, I think so much of what I think I offer to the world has to do with Ne, so it's ironic to hear that it may not be well received "out there." Yes, I always feel the same way about my gifts. We are all of us biased toward the benefits of our own gifts!! >>The predominant sense of myself I have is that I love people. I love their quirks, their "flaws", their attempts to try their best. I love seeing people's eyes, and trying to understand how they got to be who they are and who they are trying desperately to be if they could *just get it together.* :) I feel most fully alive when writing songs and sharing them. The goal I have with that is capturing in words and sounds something that touches hearts on a deep level, that reasonates with very deep places within, and communicates that "you are not alone" and moves people to live another day with courage and perhaps some wonder and awe. I really don't want to promote myself, but to help people feel loved through a song. It may sound strange. But in one realm, music, I see the covergence of everything I've experienced, a forum to *put it all* into, maybe even a reason for being here. I've heard feelers and thinkers alike tell me that one song I wrote has stuck with them and impacted their life for the better. To me that is so divine. I have that view that I gain my life by giving it away . . . Wow, it sounds like you are in touch with your life purpose! What a wonderful gift. I wonder how you can bring this skill you have with music to your relationship challenge? What kind of "song" would your conversation be? A ballad? A lullaby? What are the rhythms that this relationship honors? >> Okay, I hope this isn't too much Ne rambling here. I have to say that I have so thoroughly enjoying learning about all of you involved in the discussion. I don't share some of the processes mentioned (mine are Ne, Fi, Te, Si), but I love hearing how they operate in your lives and affect relationship dynamics. I desire to grow to that place where I respect each person just as much in areas where we're different as where we are the same. I am so new to understanding how the processes I have may be affecting my life and relationships. Any guidance on this is appreciated. Just stepping into that place of determination to honor diversity No Matter What is the most courageous step you can take. And know that all kinds of stuff is going to happen to you that will try to shake you loose from that commitment, and all of it is for Your Own Good -- your own growth, your own learning. That's what it's all about. If you can hang onto that, you'll have done more than most people ever get to with their type understanding. Gotta run, much to do today. :-O Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:10:07 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#fa52b04e-1352-45ed-beae-e54147a972e8 Vicky Jo 2007-10-23T23:10:07Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#5de31426-96d7-45cc-bcf3-a97f3bb1683d First of all, which model of type are we going to work with? Because I flip around between four of them, and sometimes they get conflated with one another (which presents its own set of challenges). Your temperament and interaction style patterns are hard-wired. And your preferences are seemingly hard-wired too, BUT the difference is that Jung's typology was always in its very inception and development intimately connected with individuation. It is a certain visibility of the individuation process, a view of individuation from the point of view of the psychology of consciousness. So it's about the forms of consciousness you prefer to engage in. So "doing type" is about the forms of consciousness you are engaging at any given moment. IN_Js are predisposed to engage (do) Ni. IS_Js are predisposed to engage (do) Si. Realizing, of course, that IN_Js *will* do Si, and IS_Js *will* do Ni -- it's just not what they do naturally (and probably not what they enjoy doing) Where do you see a conflict between these two statements? (hard-wired vs. "doing" type) What am I missing? ;-) Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:00:58 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#5de31426-96d7-45cc-bcf3-a97f3bb1683d Vicky Jo 2007-10-23T23:00:58Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#7bbb9778-68b3-4ff4-9b5f-5fac891bbcf1 Curious, is one's type "hard-wired"? If so, how do you reconcile this fact with your statement that one "does" his/her type? Am I missing something? Tue, 23 Oct 2007 18:18:12 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#7bbb9778-68b3-4ff4-9b5f-5fac891bbcf1 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-23T18:18:12Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d86f1f64-3832-4ec5-a03b-41865d830e4d Postscript: two other quick things. Type isn't so much about who you ARE as it is about what you DO. As a technicality, I *do* INFJ more than I *am* INFJ. It's a model about *preferences*, after all. Beebe calls these preferences "forms of consciousness" or "awareness." So INFJ and INTJ is a predisposition to certain forms of awareness. (The code can also be viewed as a "complex." You have an INTJ complex; I have an INFJ complex. Weird, hunh?) Second thing is that "P" is not necessarily about "indecisive." That's a common misunderstanding of that scale. What J represents is someone who likes to have things *decided*, while P prefers to keep things open-ended. Both types CAN be very *decisive*; and it may be that both dislike making decisions. But at the end of the day, the J would rather have the thing decided, while the P would rather keep the thing undecided. (Am I splitting this hair too fine for you?) I usually prefer to avoid the J/P scale and work with the interaction styles model instead, because it's more encompassing. The irony is that every IN_Js favorite process is a perceiving one, so they are considered "irrational" types, while every IN_Ps favorite process is a judging one, so they are considered "rational" types. That's always unsettling to contemplate, isn't it? It's also one of the reasons many of these types mis-typed themselves. As you write in your own post, you experience *yourself* as having a lot of "right-brain" aspects (which is why it's a better idea to ask people who know you instead to get their opinion ;-D). Tue, 23 Oct 2007 18:05:35 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d86f1f64-3832-4ec5-a03b-41865d830e4d Vicky Jo 2007-10-23T18:05:35Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#06546c5e-0501-4df0-b29c-739672ca33f9 You're 25, right? How long have you been studying type now....?? Actually, scratch that. I'd be more interested in knowing how much you've studied Temperament. A good resource may be found at www.4Temperaments.com You're right that it isn't good to "pigeonhole" anyone's type by their interests. Nevertheless, I maintain that an INTJ who puts a lot of stock in paranormal, mermaids, poetry, and astrology and looks "right-brained" deserves a hard second look for possibly being mis-typed. It doesn't add up very well, and certainly doesn't match with ANY other INTJs I know, and I've met my share. (For the record, I personally know some ESFPs and ENFPs who have mis-typed as INTJ and even INFJ for that matter. I helped a younger one sort that out only a few weeks ago.) As far as linking astrology and type goes, here are some excerpts from my www.INFJ.com website regarding a few things Jung and Jungian Dr. John Beebe say on the topic. Enjoy! ==================================== ASTROLOGY A popular model many people rely on is Astrology. It's a very interesting model that has been around since the dawn of time. In fact, the earliest recorded attempts of humans to explain the differences among us are found in ancient Astrology. Astrologers claimed that the movement of the sun, moon, and planets would influence your behavior patterns or your fate. They used twelve constellations in the sky and four major groupings, symbolized by earth, air, fire, and water. It's particularly interesting because astrology claims that your personality is not formed by what's inside you, but is determined by something completely outside of you. Astrology said that the way the heavens were aligned when you were born determined your behavior. Thousands of years ago, stars were what they went by. So it's no surprise that Astrology persists today, and many people have tried to map personality type and Astrology together. Unfortunately, there is NO correlation. None. Nada. Here's what Dr. John Beebe says on the matter: Astrology is the Ancient World's psychology. It is a psychology of the unconscious -- a proto-psychology, a pre-psychology. We can't correlate typology with astrology. Astrology speaks to an instinctive underpinning, an infrastructure to our psychology, but doesn't in itself explain consciousness. And Jung says: We are born at a given moment, in a given place and, like vintage years of wine, we have the qualities of the year and of the season of which we are born. Astrology does not lay claim to anything more. I suspect Beebe or Jung himself would have found a parallel if there was one. After all, both of them have found Astrology to be very intriguing and worthwhile. So I figure if Dr. Jung and Dr. Beebe can't link the two concepts together, it's probably pointless for the rest of us to attempt it. However, Astrology can be very interesting when used in conjunction with Jungian archetypes. It brings a whole new dimension to both models. My husband and I had our horoscopes cast by a world-famous astrologer, Alice Howell, who is also a Jungian. Alice diagrams the astrological influences in one's chart and maps it to the Jungian archetypes that are probably influencing you. And she's eerily accurate. When I did my session with her, she nicknamed me "Crusader Rabbit" and "Sparkle Plenty" in order to describe some of the archetypal influences governing me. Alice has written an interesting book, "Jungian Symbolism in Astrology," that describes her methods. (She's written a number of wonderful books, so check them all out!) I highly recommend you schedule a session with her if you can -- she lives in the Berkshires in Massachusetts. (Her roof leaks, so it'd be doing her a favor to become a paying customer. Email me if you'd like the contact details.) To summarize, while it isn't possible to link Astrology to personality type, it is an extremely worthwhile tool for getting at some psychological influences and exploring unusual facets of your personality. Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:55:39 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#06546c5e-0501-4df0-b29c-739672ca33f9 Vicky Jo 2007-10-23T17:55:39Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c4941778-fc1d-4741-88fe-c29b9faa7562 Interesting examples. Will have to mull it over. Thanks! Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:08:42 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c4941778-fc1d-4741-88fe-c29b9faa7562 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-23T17:08:42Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#652a3ee2-fbcb-4817-9569-b19dc89d990a If I posted a singles ad online (assuming I were single), I would list both my type (INTJ) and my sun sign (Capricorn), in that order. I'm interested in both, and I have always wondered if there is some correlation betwen the two. I can easily name the MBTI type and astrological sign of most everyone in my life. One of my closest friends is a fellow Capricorn and there are many similarities between us. Given that she is an ISFP, it is difficult to see why. A couple of weeks ago, I observed my friend's daughter (2 years old) and asked my friend if her daughter was a Scorpio (being an N, I couldn't even remember in which season her daughter was born, let alone the month.) She responded that she was indeed a Scorpio and rattled off characteristics of her behavior that fit the Scorpio description exactly. There are three Libras in my life: two are ENFPs and one is an ESFP. They're all incredibly indecisive, a primary Libra trait. (They're also all Ps, which explains it in MBTI.) However, if I have to choose, I choose MBTI because I observe more exceptions with astrology, and because I understand the theory of MBTI and therefore trust it more. I agree with you about INTJs being interested in nearly everything. I have certainly found that to be true for myself (with the exception of sports, perhaps.) Instead of specifically poetry, I would be more likely to list literature in general and foreign languages as interests. I do not deny that INTJ s often share many common interests. My favorite TV show is Star Trek: TNG and I can't stand soap operas, for example. I would rather watch Spike TV than Lifetime. But I believe there could very well be an INTJ out there who likes soap operas (or Lifetime), and I would not say they were mistyped just because they do. Our interests come from a wide variety of experiences and contributors, including our MBTI type. My ESTJ father was very much into opera and, because I identified with him most growing up (vs. my INFP mother), I too love opera as an adult. If two F parents were to have an INTJ child, I would fully expect their child to have some strong, atypical INTJ interests. I would not say they were mistyped. I would say they are human. In regards to left-brained vs. right-brained, I've never really felt I identified strongly with either. I see myself in both descriptions. According the the quiz I just took online, I am 60% left brained, 40% right brained. In another quiz I answered 13 questions left-brained, and 5 right-brained. So I guess I would have to say I'm more left-brained. As for thinking of me as "the INTJ who's into paranormal and poetry"... you'd be missing out on a lot putting me into such a category, but it wouldn't necessarily bother me. To use an analogy from my favorite TV show: Jean-Luc Picard, captain of the Enterprise and INTJ, was very much "into" both the paranormal and poetry, as well as classical music and painting. His character was also incredibly analytical, rational, competent, and not a bit flaky. I can see the beauty of the inner workings of a computer and also see the beauty in a line of poetry. I can appreciate both Stephen King and Gabriel Garcia Marquez. I can root for the hero of an action movie or cry at a love story. What I prefer depends on my mood. And I don't allow my MBTI type to determine my interests, nor do I worry what others may think of them. Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:47:50 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#652a3ee2-fbcb-4817-9569-b19dc89d990a Kristin 2007-10-23T16:47:50Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d14e5acf-cb47-4667-b163-fa3ce4470c7b Okay, so as a female, with a dominant process of Ne, I'm in trouble, or rather, I am trouble, eh, Vicki Jo? :) I've acutally wondered if this part of me is annoying to Mr. INTJ. Not sure. I think it maybe something behind the insecurities that keep bubbling up. I realize I have a hard time with his Se when it rears it's shallow little head! :) But then I remember that I'm not perfect and my struggles get really yucky, too. But it does leave me the lingering concern that he may prefer someone more sensing than myself. On a different note, I do, however, very much appreciate the coaching encouragements you shared with me related to believing in myself. I know that I have a tremendous struggle with comparing myself in my weak areas to others' strengths, which is never a fair fight. I was raised by an INTJ mom, an ISTJ dad, an ISTP stepfather, and an ESFJ stepmom. I was really an odd duck amongst most of this crowd and I'm sure it affects why I keep being drawn to INTJ's. In terms of affirming myself, I think so much of what I think I offer to the world has to do with Ne, so it's ironic to hear that it may not be well received "out there." The predominant sense of myself I have is that I love people. I love their quirks, their "flaws", their attempts to try their best. I love seeing people's eyes, and trying to understand how they got to be who they are and who they are trying desperately to be if they could *just get it together.* :) I feel most fully alive when writing songs and sharing them. The goal I have with that is capturing in words and sounds something that touches hearts on a deep level, that reasonates with very deep places within, and communicates that "you are not alone" and moves people to live another day with courage and perhaps some wonder and awe. I really don't want to promote myself, but to help people feel loved through a song. It may sound strange. But in one realm, music, I see the covergence of everything I've experienced, a forum to *put it all* into, maybe even a reason for being here. I've heard feelers and thinkers alike tell me that one song I wrote has stuck with them and impacted their life for the better. To me that is so divine. I have that view that I gain my life by giving it away . . . Okay, I hope this isn't too much Ne rambling here. I have to say that I have so thoroughly enjoying learning about all of you involved in the discussion. I don't share some of the processes mentioned (mine are Ne, Fi, Te, Si), but I love hearing how they operate in your lives and affect relationship dynamics. I desire to grow to that place where I respect each person just as much in areas where we're different as where we are the same. I am so new to understanding how the processes I have may be affecting my life and relationships. Any guidance on this is appreciated. Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:14:27 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d14e5acf-cb47-4667-b163-fa3ce4470c7b ENFP dreamer 2007-10-23T16:14:27Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#ab18bb37-5cc6-4d5c-8f12-9441f7e89c65 Awright awright awright. I got off my butt and went looking for the book after all. I don't know if I'm looking in the *right* book, but Berens time-stamps both Ti and Fi as "universal" in the book I'm looking at. So now I don't know what I'm trying to remember or where it's from. Sigh... I'll probably trip over it again sometime, but please don't hold your breath. For me, the best example of Ti that I ever witnessed (I think!) was via a friend of mine who designed databases with me at The Walt Disney Company (INTP preferences). He designed a database for the sales department of The Disney Channel that was "universal" in that it could give you a "snapshot" at any point in time. So you could look at the sales "picture" a year ago, a week ago, today, tomorrow, in a week, next month, next year, etc. You could seemingly "enter" the database at any interval in time and be provided with a "picture." And, of course, the more data that was entered into the file, the more robust and accurate the snapshots would be. I thought that was a great example of "timelessness" -- as in, not being trapped in any particular timeframe. One of the most intriguing examples of Ti versus Te I've ever experienced was a discussion I had once with my INTJ husband once about defining money. It was long and involved a great deal of thought. For me, I got down to some level about money being an "energy exchange," while my husband was insistent that it was a commonly-agreed-upon form of exchange. (Something like that. I know I am misremembering parts of it.) Anyway, my definition was aiming for the timeless of money and its impact on "the system," while his definition focused on the "outer world" application of it and the "common ground" that was involved. I got to experience how different these two Thinking processes were in that instant. A friend of mine labels it "amen-chorus" when a group agrees about stuff. So I figure both Te and Fe are "amen-chorus" processes. Fe is concerned about behaviors "in the moment" (i.e., manners), while Te is concerned about efficiency "in the moment." Both are centrally organized around culturally agreed-upon standards and are evoked by the here-and-now. And, of course, everybody prefers one or the other (never both). Go figure, hunh..... Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:13:06 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#ab18bb37-5cc6-4d5c-8f12-9441f7e89c65 Vicky Jo 2007-10-23T09:13:06Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c2447006-58f7-4b65-96ca-5abdc3684d65 From my experience, I would flip the time dimensions for FI and Ti. Fi for me is more about universal values (which I need to keep reminding myself is different from societal values. It's more intrinsic and thus shared by all rather than by some). Ti is timeless or rather, without time. Your expertise with Ti is more extensive than mine, but wouldn't you agree that concerns about efficiency, precision, inherent cohesion exist without regard to time? In other words, when thinking about whether a word accurately describes a concept or phenomenon, one does not think about how this phenomenon used to be defined hundreds of years ago (but if you do, then you're engaging in Si, right?). The definition simply exists. Everything else seems fitting. Neat stuff! Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:40:51 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c2447006-58f7-4b65-96ca-5abdc3684d65 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-23T07:40:51Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#ceed9872-816b-47ed-bbc9-a3953b428330 According to the experts, all introverted functions are somewhat "idealized," and are very attached to the archetype (they say). The timeframes are thus: Perceiving: Ni: future Si: past Judging: Fi: timeless Ti: universal (not as sure with these last two; I'm too lazy to go look them up right now) So the idea is that when you "attach to the archetype," you automatically operate out of different timeframes than what you do with the extraverted functions (as you recognized). In terms of the Thinking functions, I'm always looking for universal systems that operate under all conditions (Ti). Precision and elegant efficiency are my goals. In contrast, extraverted thinking deals with problems in the here-and-now, immediate situation. Like, how shall we clean up this room we're looking at? Or, how shall we schedule our employees for the coming month? Or, let's get that vacation booked right now. That sort of thing. Try it yourself: when you enter your Thinking mindset, do you notice immediate concerns? Does Feeling seem to focus on eternal values? Is iNtuiting a way to shape your future? Is Sensing about what you're smelling, tasting, grooving, buying right now? You tell me. ;-D Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:31:00 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#ceed9872-816b-47ed-bbc9-a3953b428330 Vicky Jo 2007-10-23T07:31:00Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#87c56bd7-627b-453f-b887-c9da294a27cf Lots of nuggest in that post... I'll need to digest this for a few days... incorporate it into my emerging understanding of cognitive processes. I guess I see what it means for a function to be extraverted - if it is directed toward the external world, by necessity it must be happening in the present, as that is how we interact with the external world. An introverted function however, can be timeless or future-oriented because time is much more relative/unfixed in one's mind. Whaddaya think? Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:13:41 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#87c56bd7-627b-453f-b887-c9da294a27cf $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-23T07:13:41Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#631d8061-bf20-4ea3-926b-da250be9f0cb Ni dreaming seems to be "convergent" whilst Ne dreaming seems to be "divergent." Ne is interested in the "future" in terms of what is "emergent." (All extraverted processes are related to the present moment in some fashion: Ne, Se, Te, Fe) Ni is interested in the "future" in terms of "eternity." It shows up for me as having a very existential outlook. When I have "inner knowing," it anchors me. I probably couldn't talk to you about religion for more than 10 minutes (and if we were arguing, more like 10 seconds probably), but I *know* God has always been an integral part of my life. I *know* every cloud has a silver lining. I *know* I have a purpose on this planet. I *know* so many petty things don't matter. I *know* souls matter. Oy, I feel like I took a metaphysical pill! --- which is the other thing! I'm feeling somewhat nauseous now because this is all the stuff I keep *inside* (introverted iNtuiting, remember).... so I'm generally disquieted by *women* who talk about such things on the *outside* (extraverted iNtuiting). All those endless possibilities are supposed to stay WITHIN. It's really annoying to hear them frittered away on the outside rather than treasured on the inside where they belong! (;-D) (BTW, Ne men I am attracted to; Ne women I am repulsed by. Thank you, Shadow.) How we doin'? (PS: The light saber vs. empty vessel is less emotional nourishment&energy vs. utilitarian than perhaps yin/yang energy....? I think that's what I think.) Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:43:59 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#631d8061-bf20-4ea3-926b-da250be9f0cb Vicky Jo 2007-10-23T06:43:59Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3be50eff-609f-46fa-84e5-f262d4c5a1fe It's quite helpful. The vessel/light saber comparison is interesting... I suspect that's due to the differences in supporting type. Wielding a light saber sounds very utilitarian (Te) whereas the vessel analogy has overtones of emotional nourishment and energy. How is Ni dreaming different from Ne dreaming? Is it fair to say that one is more purpose-oriented while the other is more possibility-oriented? Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:22:32 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3be50eff-609f-46fa-84e5-f262d4c5a1fe $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-23T06:22:32Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6f2bb8e0-3109-4e20-b3ce-af8834f1b117 Oh and as long as I'm asking....... .....while I don't put much stock in the whole right-brain/left-brain thing (which is too segmented of a category for my tastes, details on request), would you claim overall to be more "left-brained" or "right-brained"? Better yet, which would your family or friends probably say about you? ;-D Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:19:57 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6f2bb8e0-3109-4e20-b3ce-af8834f1b117 Vicky Jo 2007-10-23T06:19:57Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#41eb7e5a-dc67-4263-bd01-853fa0cc0e7a In the first place, it seems difficult to find an INTJ who isn't interested in nearly *everything* at some level, given their need for acquiring knowledge and gaining competence. So all bets are off at that level. Heck, at that level, I'd easily get an earful from some INTJ about ... animal husbandry. (I recognize this was an ideal opportunity to make a wonderful joke/pun, and I couldn't think of one -- my apologies.) As far as poetry-writing competence, I know of some INTJ email lists my husband participates in where they have somehow chosen some meter of verse and exchanged posts with one another, all adhering to the proper form. (It seems like an interesting Te challenge -- language with difficult limitations!) My husband happens to love Chaucer, and will occasionally recite, and I do have a lovely poem from him somewhere which I hope to someday have professionally calligraphed and mounted. Paranormal? Hm, I'd say the husband's pretty skeptical. Intrigued but skeptical. Doesn't claim any paranormal powers of his own per se that I've heard of. He's happy to do the I Ching or Tarot with you, but he's not the kinda guy who does fortune telling or sits around with a Ouija board. (I'd say his leaning is more toward Synchronicity than the paranormal, if I were to make any fine distinctions.) Definitely he has an allergy to much "woo-woo." Astrology? Outside of having his cast by Alice O. Howell (with a Jungian slant), I've never seen him devote time to it. Mermaids? Only to entertain 6-yr-old ENFJ nieces swimming in the pool. So I'm curious. If you posted a singles ad online, would it say "INTJ female, interested in poetry, paranormal, and.... mermaids?" (And might you include astrology, which I overlooked in my previous post?) Or what would it likely read instead? Help me out here, since you like responding to challenges. Otherwise I shall eternally think of you as "the INTJ on that board who's into paranormal and poetry." :-D Tue, 23 Oct 2007 05:58:08 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#41eb7e5a-dc67-4263-bd01-853fa0cc0e7a Vicky Jo 2007-10-23T05:58:08Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#0516ace2-8bb3-4c6e-a351-c5a98f3e4280 Great question. Trouble is, it's hard to separate out the functions since they all cooperate together systemically in the personality. Certainly my husband and I seem to "dream together" well, which seems to be an Ni affinity. For instance, we dreamed of getting engaged on the Eiffel Tower and married at Stonehenge, and we achieved that together! And we have realized a number of other dreams together. But I would say we use our Ni differently overall. It seems to me that I regard myself as an "empty vessel" that Ni will simply pour itself into from time to time. But INTJs seem to "wield" their Ni, and "use" it to navigate their way through the universe more like a light saber. (Based on conversations with some highly type-knowledgeable INTJs I know.) DH and I are both "show-offs" somewhat, and we shop well together besides, which I think is affinity around Se (the inferior function). ;-D But for the rest of it..... sometimes I feel like Little John and Robin Hood, balanced on a log that traverses a rushing brook, doing battle with oak staffs and trying to knock one other into the water. These oak staffs represent our auxiliary and tertiary functions (tandem processes):: Fe <---> Ti for me, and Te <---> Fi for him. When we get into those battles, it's unpleasant. It seems like first we hit with one end of the staff, and then we switch to the other side of the staff to hit with. How does that look in practice? Um, sometimes he hits me with the Te end of the staff, like being insistent about not having enough time to do something. Irritated, I hit back with the Fe end of my staff, complaining that he is undermining my aspirations. Then he goes into "injured" mode and thus hits me with the Fi side of his staff -- and then I get all analytical about what's happening and hit him with the Ti end of my staff. You get the idea. <|8-P That's how it looks with the type model, anyway. The temperament model is something else again. It seems to me that INTJs such as my husband use their preferred cognitive processes to realize their Theorist core temperament values (such as competence, knowledge, mastery and self-control), whilst I use mine to realize my Catalyst core temperament values (unique identity, relationship, meaning, authenticity). Because of this, our expressions of Ni will forever seem very different. (It does look quite similar through a social styles model, however!) Is this helpful? Did it answer your question? Tue, 23 Oct 2007 05:41:57 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#0516ace2-8bb3-4c6e-a351-c5a98f3e4280 Vicky Jo 2007-10-23T05:41:57Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#bc80a8ab-47d8-4fe5-95c8-1bf05e883fb4 Okay, I'll bite. (Since you challenged!) I'm an INTJ and it just so happens that I am very interested in the paranormal, just watched a TV feature on it a couple of nights ago, in fact, and I read a poetry book just yesterday. My undergraduate major was in Spanish language and literature, including poetry (gasp!). (The difference is that my NF classmates went off into the world to apply their language skills helping others, while I was ready to skip the "people" part and learn another language for the intellectual challenge.) As for mermaids.... well.... I've got nothing. I also have many "typical" INTJ interests - web programming, for example. The description of INTJ fits me to a tee. I've taken at least a dozen different tests and never come up with anything other than a strong INTJ. And no other personality description rings nearly as true. Being INTJ influences the way I think, the way I deal with the world, the way I analyze problems... but why in the world should it influence whether I can appreciate and enjoy poetry? Earlier today on another MBTI site, I read an entire post (started by an INTJ) with numerous replies from other NTs, ALL IN FREE VERSE. Call me mistyped if you wish... Tue, 23 Oct 2007 03:49:35 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#bc80a8ab-47d8-4fe5-95c8-1bf05e883fb4 Kristin 2007-10-23T03:49:35Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#fa6f60a8-3edd-4c90-a35d-031ff37996ee Query whether your husband's DomNi, as supported/influenced by his Te, is different from your Ni. If so, did it offer you anything new to explore? Or is the dominant function unaffected by the supporting function, and thus whatever differences believed to exist between the two dominant functions are actually due to the supporting functions? Does this make any sense? Tue, 23 Oct 2007 03:08:05 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#fa6f60a8-3edd-4c90-a35d-031ff37996ee $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-23T03:08:05Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#204b476b-fdb3-45db-bd1c-87131c2d8277 Here's the unified theory (at least for relationships): anyone you are attracted to is there to teach you something. Otherwise the attraction wouldn't be there to begin with. Heaven only knows what that "something" might be. I suspect my husband may have been attracted to me because he wanted to explore extraverted Feeling. I suspect I may have been drawn to my husband because I wanted to explore extraverted Thinking. And there have been a few other obstacles we've stumbled across that the Universe probably threw out there for us to individuate over. Money, boundaries, accomplishment. All manner of juicy stuff. Whenever you walk away from one relationship where the learning is "too hard," chances are you'll just find another that's got the same lesson in it; it just comes in a different package. The Universe is sneaky that way. If she's gonna larn ya, she'll find a way to larn ya. Unless you "check out" and go numb, brittle, harden your arteries. Plenty of that sort around. Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:50:29 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#204b476b-fdb3-45db-bd1c-87131c2d8277 Vicky Jo 2007-10-23T02:50:29Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#33eb7c8f-1e58-4d18-9b55-9025653d0c0d >>But, what about right-brained vs. left-brained INTJs. I have to admit, the one i have an intellectual "thing" for isn't exaclty like most of us. She is not very... mmm... she's into star-signs, I'm into personalitiy type; she's into poems, mermaids, and paranormal, I am into hard-science, engineering, and... mermaids. o_O << ~cough~ ~splutter~ I would seriously wonder if she were mis-typed. (As previously stated, Keirsey suggests that nearly every other person is probably mis-typed.) "Poems, mermaids, and paranormal" ?? INTJ?? It doesn't sound like a very accurate temperament match. Even if you found an INTJ who *was* interested in poems, mermaids, and paranormal, I doubt they would *ever* admit it to anyone, certainly not to anyone via email. =8-O C'mon, Einstein, are you reeeeeeeeallly interested in mermaids???? Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:43:45 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#33eb7c8f-1e58-4d18-9b55-9025653d0c0d Vicky Jo 2007-10-23T02:43:45Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#be42cfc6-3bb1-433c-9ff7-9caf1a9ea38b ROFLMAO!!! I don't think Einstein, Samuel Clemons, Tom Sawyer, or Huck Finn had ANYthing on US!!! Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:51:50 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#be42cfc6-3bb1-433c-9ff7-9caf1a9ea38b Wyatt 2007-10-23T01:51:50Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9204ba35-143c-49e1-b5e2-d20828118f47 i'll do you one better: a relationship with compatible temperament style and common goals is like two 2D puzzle pieces that fit and provide a coherent picture. (you know where this is going...)This is a platonic / friendly / convenient relationship. In Greek mythological terms, this would be called philia. Attraction, by contrast, add an *uplifting* character to the whole dimension, thus turning the puzzle into 3D. If this attraction forms the basis of lve, then we have eros. And the grand unified theory... well, yes, I seek one that can explain *everything*! Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:48:22 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9204ba35-143c-49e1-b5e2-d20828118f47 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-23T01:48:22Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c95aadaa-de27-4a52-a6b1-3861ef685a4d or I should say, temperament = f(communication style, interaction style, ....) Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:47:53 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c95aadaa-de27-4a52-a6b1-3861ef685a4d Wyatt 2007-10-23T01:47:53Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#2f76fd3d-ccd3-4b55-b2c8-761e13a1ed00 communication style, interaction style = f(temprament) attraction = MAGNETISM.... YES! We now have MAGNETIC puzzle pieces!!! And your tribe thread is trying to explore a unfied theory of Personality Type and Attraction (but only the specfic case of the INTJ-ENFP)! Lol!! Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:34:25 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#2f76fd3d-ccd3-4b55-b2c8-761e13a1ed00 Wyatt 2007-10-23T01:34:25Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1cad95b2-6e3c-44cc-8a5e-4572b74ff151 so if picture = life goals, and male/female pieces = temperament, what do you assign to attraction, communication style, interaction style, etc? Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:28:24 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1cad95b2-6e3c-44cc-8a5e-4572b74ff151 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-23T01:28:24Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#80afcf46-bd94-42ec-b547-f112c82bb242 <<What is our end goal? Is it having two puzzle pieces fit together? Or having a picture that makes sense, regardless of how the piece fit together? Or is it both? >> I think it is both. But we only have part of a picture. The two pieces only have to "look congruent", AND fit somewhat, whether that means shaving some parts off, or cramming them together in parts... <<We can structure this analogy any way we want, since reality is just a pawn to the INTJ... but after taking this analogy around the block, I would end up right where we started: people can fit together naturally but the end result - the picture - may not make sense because they want different things. >> Yes. <<Thus stated, the male/female pieces represent interaction style, communication style, attraction... all the things that make a relationship a possibility.>> I would still choose the shape of the pieces to be that of temperament, so that we pull *that* part out to be looked at seperately, not mixed in with anything else. Since that is what our topic and domain in tribe propels (type, temprament, mbti...). I don't know that attraction belongs there. We are trying to make that connection here, though. So I don't know. I know different people are attracted to different things. Different INTJ's seem to be attracted to differnent personalities... like ESFPs... INFJ.s... << The picture is what both parties want - common religious beliefs, family plans, career goals, marriage, etc. To some extent the picture is tied to the puzzle fit - goals are influenced by temperament - but to some extent the picture can be analyzed *seperately*. agreed? >> Yeah, ok. I'll buy that. Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:23:27 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#80afcf46-bd94-42ec-b547-f112c82bb242 Wyatt 2007-10-23T01:23:27Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#51d9f169-091f-495c-a0c7-5e6cfe8de5a3 last sentence should read: "but to some extent the picture can be analyzed *separately*." Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:09:11 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#51d9f169-091f-495c-a0c7-5e6cfe8de5a3 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-23T01:09:11Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#2fcfc877-0102-4ffe-9c8e-96280c82659b Here's a way out of this morass of having 10,000 random puzzle pieces on the dining table... What is our end goal? Is it having two puzzle pieces fit together? Or having a picture that makes sense, regardless of how the piece fit together? Or is it both? We can structure this analogy any way we want, since reality is just a pawn to the INTJ... but after taking this analogy around the block, I would end up right where we started: people can fit together naturally but the end result - the picture - may not make sense because they want different things. Thus stated, the male/female pieces represent interaction style, communication style, attraction... all the things that make a relationship a possibility. The picture is what both parties want - common religious beliefs, family plans, career goals, marriage, etc. To some extent the picture is tied to the puzzle fit - goals are influenced by temperament - but to some extent the picture can be analyzed. agreed? Tue, 23 Oct 2007 00:55:05 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#2fcfc877-0102-4ffe-9c8e-96280c82659b $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-23T00:55:05Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#5ee21867-30ef-420e-a3b2-6895515dde1d <<... I fail to understand the INTJ-ENFP romantic dynamic everyone is always talking about. I actually prefer ESFP.>> Lol!!! VJ will love you for this! <<...But since I'm such a strong N, and not as strong of a T (maybe this plays into the N-heavy vs. T-heavy you were talking about)>> Lol!!! She will NOT love you for this! (see above dialog on "strength") Personally, I don't care. <<For some reason, when I'm with ENFPs, I feel the need to overplay that "logical" role. The ENFPs in my life dream even more than I do (I didn't think it was possible). And they dream differently - is it just me or do ENFPs dream about fame a lot? ENFPs I know will especially watch movies or TV and think, "Hey, I could do that! I should be a country music singer, or a mafia boss, or a ...." (fill in the blank) until they get inspired from something else, and then their dream changes. In that dynamic, my role seems to be the realist, >> And I love to dream with them. Most of my life has been such that my dreams have been held back by realities, or people telling me I "can't". Well, i can. And I like dreaming with people who will dream with me. In the end, i can take practical ideas and make them work. it is most excillerating to me! <<although now that I see they don't actively pursue those goals I stay more silent now and let them enjoy it.>> smart move! <<I guess my point is that I like to be the dreamer in the relationship, the one always analyzing the endless possibilies of life. I think Ss make great sounding boards for those ideas. I feel I can be myself, whereas if I were to tell an ENFP about an idea, they would lead me of the diving board with it.>> I think VJ might call this a result of "Super N." << Or more likely, they would say "that sounds great!" to most anything and I would still be left wondering whether it's a good idea. >> I am usually able to determine what really is good from what isn't with my thinking functions. I am very analytical that way. I grew up on a farm, and I know what really works at the end of the day. Or at least don't go into it blind not knowing what the risks are. <<So I think, for me, ENFPs make much better friends than significant others. But that's just my take on the issue - I'd love to know if other INTJs have had similar experiences. >> <<As for INTJs in relationships with other INTJs, I can't even imagine. I drive myself crazy enough as it is. I'll take the "opposites attract" road if I have a choice.>> But, what about right-brained vs. left-brained INTJs. I have to admit, the one i have an intellectual "thing" for isn't exaclty like most of us. She is not very... mmm... she's into star-signs, I'm into personalitiy type; she's into poems, mermaids, and paranormal, I am into hard-science, engineering, and... mermaids. o_O Tue, 23 Oct 2007 00:52:44 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#5ee21867-30ef-420e-a3b2-6895515dde1d Wyatt 2007-10-23T00:52:44Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1e12c320-512c-493b-962a-7fc211832623 Speaking as an INTJ, I very much enjoy the company of ENFPs. I know several including my sister, my brother-in-law, and a couple of friends. They are fun, imaginative, entertaining, and thoughtful. I have so much fun spending time with them. With that being said, I fail to understand the INTJ-ENFP romantic dynamic everyone is always talking about. I actually prefer ESFP. I think maybe it comes down to this: Being an N, I'm constantly dreaming about future possibilities - starting a new business, or writing a book, etc. Many times my T side kicks in and evaluates whether those possibilities are realistic or not. But since I'm such a strong N, and not as strong of a T (maybe this plays into the N-heavy vs. T-heavy you were talking about), sometimes I go a little off the deep end with an idea and put a lot of time and effort into something before realizing it's really not practical. Being with an S spouse brings often me back to reality. I like to have that balance because I can feel more free to be myself. It's also very, very nice to have an S around to notice things that I wouldn't (i.e. "Did you see the ceiling is starting to leak in the guest bedroom?" or "Your socks don't match!") For some reason, when I'm with ENFPs, I feel the need to overplay that "logical" role. The ENFPs in my life dream even more than I do (I didn't think it was possible). And they dream differently - is it just me or do ENFPs dream about fame a lot? ENFPs I know will especially watch movies or TV and think, "Hey, I could do that! I should be a country music singer, or a mafia boss, or a ...." (fill in the blank) until they get inspired from something else, and then their dream changes. In that dynamic, my role seems to be the realist, although now that I see they don't actively pursue those goals I stay more silent now and let them enjoy it. I guess my point is that I like to be the dreamer in the relationship, the one always analyzing the endless possibilies of life. I think Ss make great sounding boards for those ideas. I feel I can be myself, whereas if I were to tell an ENFP about an idea, they would lead me of the diving board with it. Or more likely, they would say "that sounds great!" to most anything and I would still be left wondering whether it's a good idea. So I think, for me, ENFPs make much better friends than significant others. But that's just my take on the issue - I'd love to know if other INTJs have had similar experiences. As for INTJs in relationships with other INTJs, I can't even imagine. I drive myself crazy enough as it is. I'll take the "opposites attract" road if I have a choice. Tue, 23 Oct 2007 00:25:22 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1e12c320-512c-493b-962a-7fc211832623 Kristin 2007-10-23T00:25:22Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#782e9c98-a6e0-4fe5-ab25-c239e3db8292 <<couldn't you also say that all those factors are subsumed within your original analogy, that the male and female parts of the puzzle are shaped in part by mbti, in part by those factors, in part by whatever else... in essence, either there's a good, natural fit (and all is bliss) or there isn't a good fit and the parties need to get to work. >> Lol... Why yes, you COULD say that. It is just a construct-- you can say anything you want. But I chose not to in this case because it left the puzzle "shape" soley with the temperament pattern, which is easier to see, and to work in other details affecting it (like stress points). <<not to beat the metaphor to death... but if two pieces fit perfectly, doesn't it follow that they were supposed to go together and hence the picture (or the part of the picture composed of these two parts) will be coherent... it's the pieces that don't fit together - that weren't supposed to go together - where the picture won't make sense.>> I LOVE beating metaphors to death!!! Let's beat this one to death! Puzzles are cut-up on a machine with a repeating pattern. It does NOT follow that they were supposed to go together if they fit together perfectly... (ok, maybe if you get down on a microscopic level, you can say that.. but on a real world level, you can actually have two pieces that do not go together that fit togeather "near" perfectly. And many MORE that "kind-of" fit togeather.) And in the end, we are not all connecting together to form one great big gigantic puzzle (like a marriage orgy, unless you want to consider a big polygamous society... unghhh!! that would be WAY complicated.) We are only talking about placing "two" pieces together for a fit, and with part of a bigger picture that is somewhat congruent... it only has to "appear" to be the right picture on a grander scale... i.e. blue/white sky with blue/white sky, tree branches with tree branches, mountains with mountains... etc... <<I don't like the whole "supposed to go together" bit though... since nothing is preordained, etc. >> I don't either. I think there are many pieces that "kind of " fit with many other pieces, and this is what we work with. I don't think there is actually an "ideal fit", and if there was, I don't have until i am 1028 years old to find her. I think many INTJ's think more like we do. But I have met many ENFP's that do in fact think there is an "ideal person" or two who are "meant to be". I view this line of thought as a rationalization "after the fact". Tue, 23 Oct 2007 00:19:06 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#782e9c98-a6e0-4fe5-ab25-c239e3db8292 Wyatt 2007-10-23T00:19:06Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3f5b5fc0-7e64-40f7-8358-14bedc1e484a couldn't you also say that all those factors are subsumed within your original analogy, that the male and female parts of the puzzle are shaped in part by mbti, in part by those factors, in part by whatever else... in essence, either there's a good, natural fit (and all is bliss) or there isn't a good fit and the parties need to get to work. not to beat the metaphor to death... but if two pieces fit perfectly, doesn't it follow that they were supposed to go together and hence the picture (or the part of the picture composed of these two parts) will be coherent... it's the pieces that don't fit together - that weren't supposed to go together - where the picture won't make sense. I don't like the whole "supposed to go together" bit though... since nothing is preordained, etc. Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:47:24 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3f5b5fc0-7e64-40f7-8358-14bedc1e484a $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-22T23:47:24Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#740e00ba-e72b-42a4-a597-00fd808edbca theoretically, two temperaments can be "fit" together fine, but the specifics of their upbringing may not jive... (a) religious beliefs (b) sexual appitites (c) culture/refinement (d) racial barriers (yes, in today's day and age, that can still be a problem on a relationship level with some people) (e) gender (male/male, male/female, human/animal... wait a minute, I better not go there...) (f) asthetics (yes, this will matter to some people, too) (g) psycological specifics (h) etc.... Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:42:13 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#740e00ba-e72b-42a4-a597-00fd808edbca Wyatt 2007-10-22T23:42:13Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#91e5ea3a-843b-4bb9-98f2-95937ea1e86e >>It is also possible that two shapes theoretically fit together very well, with very little effort, but the picture that they make together isn't so good. << I found this part of the analogy especially interesting. What real-life scenario does this analogy represent? Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:35:14 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#91e5ea3a-843b-4bb9-98f2-95937ea1e86e $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-22T23:35:14Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#5499aca9-6f84-4a29-a662-a6cb568b37e8 ok, I'm gonna go with an analogy here, because i am good at them... o_O I believe that Personlality Type creates a great framework for looking at people as if they were pieces of a jig-saw puzzle. Statistcally, there is really only a limited number of "general shapes" in a puzzle, and they repeat. But there are many, many more when you look more closely at the specific shapes-- where the fine detail is. Some puzzle pieces fit together with a lot less effort than with other pieces. The strain in a relationship comes from forcing two pieces together, and the number of stress points where they "don't quite fit as nicely". At these stress points, we usually change something, shave off the rough edges, or wear them off, or become flexible with a give and take... or we just live with the stress, or split the puzzle fitting and match it with another. Some pieces never fit together so well. Some work at it, and they do. It is also possible that two shapes theoretically fit together very well, with very little effort, but the picture that they make together isn't so good. Heh, there is a lot involved. At the end of the day, no analysis is going to tell you who you are attracted to, or how a coupling will work out. At the end of the day, it is the specifics of the two puzzle pieces that matter. And whether you like the picture. Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:28:53 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#5499aca9-6f84-4a29-a662-a6cb568b37e8 Wyatt 2007-10-22T23:28:53Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#46cd5a2b-83f8-49de-a31d-ce9867512f6d Whoa whoa whoa. Coach hat snaps on. Have you ever noticed how easy it is to "measure" ourselves against other people, and how often we come up short? We rig that game against ourselves. I think somebody out there calls it "comparing our insides to other people's outsides." We can do quite a number on ourselves with those yardsticks. Fact: if my husband and I didn't know so much about psychological type, I don't know if we could have hung together this long. Even so, the thing strains and creaks at the seams quite a bit. Suffice it to say that INFJ + INTJ is not necessarily a match made in heaven. (I just hadn't gotten around to explaining that to Wyatt yet. ;-D) Were we on the phone and you my client, I would set an egg-timer for five minutes and challenge you to say what's great about you for the entire 5 minutes, no stopping, lots of enthusiasm, preferably standing up, possibly in a mirror. "What's great about you?" I challenge you to try it by yourself! I went through a phase in my coach training where I was convinced I couldn't be a good coach because I did NOT have ENFP preferences -- no joke! I know a little something about insecurity. So if nothing else..... right back atcha!! ;-P Mon, 22 Oct 2007 20:43:00 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#46cd5a2b-83f8-49de-a31d-ce9867512f6d Vicky Jo 2007-10-22T20:43:00Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#43e1101e-0cf9-4c31-8762-251259343cef Don't sell yourself short, ENFP dreamer. I would take most ENFP's I know over any other of the types I know. At the end of the day, you come home to a person, interact with them, and need the intimacy. How I interact with your type as a whole and in person is MUCH more dramatic and meaningful to me on a whole other level. Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:18:08 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#43e1101e-0cf9-4c31-8762-251259343cef Wyatt 2007-10-22T16:18:08Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6c936eb6-f76a-4458-b6c6-9d83e2b4b990 I read Wyatt and Vicki Jo's posts and I think: "Could I do it? Could I get my mind to work in such directions, such ideas, such dialogue?" What I can do is follow it, track with it, and marvel at how your minds work. :) I enjoy seeing how you examine an issue. The slicing and dicing is a site to behold :) For what it's worth, I feel as if I grow as a person just by reading what you have to say. So thank you for sharing your discussion with us. And on the other hand, I go back to the dark ENFP place of insecurity, wondering if the INTJ I know would be happier with an INFJ. :) I have no similar ability to offer. The currency of the ENFP is warmth, enthusiasm, acceptance, hopes and dreams. I understand that it depends on him as individual, not his MBTI type, and what he would look for in someone. But for the sake of discussion, could an INTJ really value an ENFP (and our gifts) the way an ENFP could value those of the INTJ? *Note: if this post has been a ridiculous insecure inquiry, please feel free to disregard* Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:09:04 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6c936eb6-f76a-4458-b6c6-9d83e2b4b990 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-22T16:09:04Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#38c0affe-c23a-4b1d-bb26-1ee8d685d346 Hi Vicky Jo!!! <<I always bear in mind that a personality is an intact, whole *system*. Only in theory may it be deconstructed, and separated into "parts" with tiny little labels on them. Real-live people are not formulas or algorithms.>> Trust me. I am VERY estute in looking at EVERYTHING from a systems perspective. Linear and nonlinear, time varient and time invarient. Are you familiar with the concept of state-variables? This is a way of tracking memory elements of a system for analysis (and you may wield certain truths about them to design performance of a system). In an analogous way, it would be similar to tracking which processes of personality type "light up" under varying circumstances. Each state-variable (or process) has associated with it a magnitude and a phase-shift (or delay for a discrete system). We look at the parts and analyse them because it is easier to wrap our minds around it and exploit certain truths about it, and it's bearing on the whole system. In fact, the whole system behaves as a single unit, each "part" seeing and acting on all other parts in that system SIMULTANEOUSLY. It is the scaling factors (gain) and feedback mechanisms (looking at the result, and feeding it back to the input for correction) of these state variables that affect how the system behaves. So, I beleive real live people may be MODELED by formulas AND algorithms, although incredibly complex ones that are certainly of a non-linear nature, and not really able to be fully modeled or understood by our limited (as of yet) understanding of ourselves. This would be where John and I diverge on our ways of thinking about inputs to people and expected results (he likes to think in ones and zeros... on and off switches. He is digital. I am analog. I like to think in terms of the degree to which something may be on, and that a switch turned half way on does not behave as a switch should). I am seldom surprised by unexpected results. I don't even claim to be good at delivering the inputs to other people. Because even there, the system (of one individual) becomes a subsystem of a much larger network of interconnectedness among many people in a much larger system (society). <<Thus, an INTJ is NOT composed of I + N + T + P..... NOR are they comprised of Ni + Te + Fi + Se, etc. (You hear this kind of nonsense showing up in type language sometimes. The flaw becomes particularly apparent when someone claims to be something like INTJ/P -- which is nonsensical once you understand the theory.>> I love you. Will you marry me? (but you're already taken-- aren't you?) << So I'm merely pitching the reminder out that these things can't be separated into tidy little component parts like INTJs are so fond of. People are not "things" -- and they can never be entirely separated from the context of the *whole*. RIght? >> People are things that do not like to think they are things. I don't even like my own statement I just made. But, fundamentally I believe it. I agree, they cannot be entirely seperated from the context of the whole. Let's consider that we exist in the "mind" of God (however you want to define "creator" in any grand sense of the word) as near dimensionless points in relation... First diminsion is length, second width, third depth (which we exist in at any given point in time), fourth is time... etc... and they climb... until you have God encompassing all. It is why even asking "when" God began makes no sense. Time is a dimensional concept within the whole of God, and does not exist on the outside of it/him. We are no more than ideas created in the "mind" of God, and we have "free will". We may interact. make decisions. And the conciousness of God has made a decsion on where he wants to go and how he wants to get there (a J tendency... heh... if you believe the biblical theology). Any idea (or person) "for" this single minded direction is "Good". And by definition, all not inline actively persuing that end is "Evil". And in the end, even within our own little "universe" of our specific physics laws (because there do "exist" others in the realm of Gods "mind") we are still just "things". But, the conciousness "thing" in us doesn't let us like to think that is all we are. I don't. I often pretend otherwise and convince myself quite nicely that I am not. That I am more than the sum of my parts. And I am happier for it. I'm not saying I really believe the line of theological baloney I just fed everyone. I might. But I might not. I'm not sure yet. I thought along these lines when I was like 14. Then I waxed and waned, then I broadened my learning experiences and lines of thought, then I went back. I'm quite sure that it very well could take nearly the rest of my life to decide. Then again, who cares? Sometimes I do. I also think every XSXJ I know so far in this life is going straight to Hell when they die (except for the one that I fell in love with many years ago). At least my version of it. Which would probably be their heaven. o_O Heh, if they went to my heaven, they would be in their hell. What a wonderful revenge!!! (But then I would be stuck with them... my own subset of hell within my Heaven!!! unghh!) Not sayin' I believe *that* either. But it is fun to think about. <<Mmmmm, you sound rather like my INTJ husband, who makes similar comments all the time about INTJs he encounters. I surmise it's interesting to see where you've been, and imagine where you might be going. ;-) >> I am receptive to that if you are really interested. It would be a mutual investment of the same. email me. Not discussing it in open forum. So, we have to limit it to one-on-one learning of personal experiences from one another. <<Okay, let's bear down on it. What on earth would "strength" of a preference mean? It would either mean one is being DOMINEERING with it (which I don't think is what you are proposing); or it would mean that the person has relinquished use of the other processes in order to favor this one -- in which case, somebody who is "off-the-scale with their 'N' strength" would have to be flakier than the Pillsbury Doughboy (once again not a very flattering notion methinks). These are two ways of quantifying "strength." What else could "strength" refer to in the context of psychological type? (Bearing in mind, of course, that Jung's viewpoint of psychological type is that human beings tend to have a *problem* of being too "one-sided," and his theory was intended to help people develop the other aspects of themselves and overcome that -- so, again, celebrating "one-sidedness" is illogical within the context of Jung's theory. :-/) >> <<I concede that a process may be more *developed* in its use with some individuals than others. Particularly in environments (families? cultures?) where use of a certain process is discouraged might result in less development of a preferred process than might be optimal for that individual. But even then, it's not like there is an easy yardstick to measure that. It's possible the person has adapted quite well but has found ways to disguise or compensate with another process so as to *look* like they aren't using it. (INTJs seem particularly good at masking their Ni, which is culturally less acceptable than their Te -- although some INTJs look a little one-sided with their Te because the culture has encouraged to mistrust their own best gift. :-/) >> Hmmm... yes. I see how you are laying this all out. And I believe this level of *development* is closest to what I mean by "strength". So let's just use the word developed, then. And I do see some other words of meaning you have used on other deminsions like DOMINEERING, which is really a "preference excercised in excess??? more than ANY other to an inappropriate degree?" which is a result of "strength of DESIRE to use it". But, yes, I am talking of strength of the function itself, so it would be closest to meaning "developed". And how well a function is "developed" is a result of (a) talant/natural intelligence in that particular function (which affects the "speed" at which one may develop out a process), (b) opportunity to develop (like you said, you may be in an environment that "supresses" you using certain functions based on the system of rewards and punishments in place there), and (c) Preference (and I think we all know what this means). Heh. I get beat up quite frequently by my ESTJ boss for using my Ni. And I have gotten VERY good at beating back with my Te, although in very subtle but effecive ways. It has developed into a mutual respect after I saved his heiney more than a few times. He doesn't question me quite so hard anymore, nor try to argue with me past simplistic reasoning. He also realizes now that I do listen to what he says before i summarily reject his line of sight solutions, because i occasionally employ his solution to pacify him when I do not really have anything to lose in the long run by doing so-- and it buys me "cooperative points" to spend on the things that DO matter to me. But I do use my Ni quite liberally, and am not afraid to do so. <<Contrary to your wondering above (about the eight processes being "common knowledge"), Dr. John Beebe began developing this notion of the "sequence of eight" in 1988, and is still in the process of evolving his theory. Many type enthusiasts are unfamiliar with his ideas, and with others there is resistance to his viewpoint in some parts of the type community (particularly amongst the "old guard"). Only three of the eight qualifying program providers teach his version of the theory. Most people suppose they know everything there is to know about type by using the MBTI's 4 dichotomy scales (I/E, S/N, F/T, J/P), and are loath to update their thinking with an improved framework.>> Thank you for that bit of enlightment!!! I resist no viewpoint. I embrace them all. Then throw out what doesn't make sense. Until it does. Then I will re-evaluate it. <<... (The "strength" nonsense came about from people thinking the scores they get from taking the MBTI represent "strength" rather than "degree of clarity.") The whole thing starts to look like a mongrel Heinz 57 breed, or like E=MC(2) except on Tuesdays when we like it to mean something else altogether. =8-O >> Nope. You straightened me out on that one many months ago. And what you said then makes sense as it does now. It is not what I talk about when i talk of strength. I think we should used the word developed. <<Anyway, one of the better type books now available is titled "8 Keys to Self-Leadership" by Dario Nardi (INTJ), and it describes the 8 functions in greater depth, and indicates what level of development one may have achieved for each one of them. Nardi describes the processes in depth, and provides a self-assessment in each chapter for a person to ascertain how well developed they are in using each of the processes.>> Hey... I have this on order now!!! <<That's as close as I'm willing to get to conceding any aspect of type could be called "strength" of a process (if it's translated to "level of development") -- and my hunch is that most people aren't nearly that sophisticated and are relying on those numbers they get from some "test" or what they hear others say.>> ok. I am glad we had this conversation. <<Truthfully, I don't myself care all that much how "strong" or even "developed" the processes are for most people -- I'm more interested in whether or not they are matching their processes appropriately to any given task: for instance, using Feeling to solve Feeling problems, and Thinking to solve Thinking problems -- not using Thinking to solve Feeling problems or Feeling to solve Thinking problems! (INTJs may have some horror stories to share about attempting to do this unsuccessfully....?) An ability to use the right process for a given problem is a more accurate indication of individuation than measuring whatever someone might call "strength." >> I wouldn't say I care about this for most people. Only for myself and people/significant others I bond with. I need the stroking on certain levels. And it needs to be a mutually endearing long term experience, filled with many, many mutually endearing short term experiences. << Is that drilled down enough, or can I stop now? ;-D >> Not even close. I could keep going. But I do understand if you tire of this. This is almost as good as sex for me (but not quite). Ok, maybe it is. I'm not really sure yet. Going through this with you makes my heart leap out of my chest. Every time. In a major way. I do not know why. It just does. Another person has done this intellectual thing to me recently. She lives on the other side of the world, I have never met her, I have no clue what she looks like, she is evasive as hell, and I am not even 100% convinced she is a woman (she says she is, and I believe her) but she has been a conduit for expanding my mind and ideas in ways beyond that which I was able to previously consider. It is fun taking intellectual journey's with her. But they are not intellectual facts like with you. They are intellectual metaphors and abstractions on a completely different plane. And I like it. And it feeds my emotions some how. It is the intellectual equivalent of falling in love for me, but it is not love. Or maybe it is. it could be. But it is different some how. I do feel the endorphines. She started me on writing poetry. I didn't even know I had any talent for it. I was very surprised that her free-style came very naturally for me, so I picked it up. So it is very easy for us to communicate that way. She is much more right brained than I am. I believe I am more balanced, with a tilt toward the left. But now, maybe a little more balanced than before, or maybe even to the right. She claims she is INTJ, but I dunno. Is there any correlations or studies on right-brained versus left-brained INTJ's? or any other of the personalities for that matter? So, what is this? For me. What is happening? with her and you. what is the attraction, VJ? Coz it is nearly overwhelming sometimes when I am in the middle of it. I did read "We" by the way. This is my take on it. Robert Johnson applies his thinking functions to a feeling problem. Right? And isn't that one of the loops which you try to help people grow out of? Of course, i am teasing you, but I am making a valid point, too (does recognizing this get me any points for growing beyond using thinking functions for feeling problems? Maybe you recommended it BECAUSE I am a thinker). I do think he has some very interesting ideas and paints some things in a metaphorical way, and extracts from those some useful cause-and-effect scenerios. Particularly, I find his concepts of passionate love and compassionate love very useful and enlightening. And the psycology of "man" versus that of "woman", anima and animus, is interesting. I see that Robert's view is that as a western culture, our concept of love is much more passionate than that of eastern culture, which is much more compassionate. But, here's the thing with me: I need both in my life. Not all one way or all the other. I do not seek an enduring "religious" experience with my partner per se, although I would like to experience sex as a "religious" experience from time to time-- (with all of the physical, emotional, AND intellectual happening AT THE SAME TIME-- Heh, I am all for sensory overload, inside and out). I have never been here before, but I would like to go. Actually, if you go to my profile, I have written a lot of thoughts (questions and answers) that were generated from this book. If you wanna take any of it up with me, I would be happy to indulge you with it. By the way, i am on Aphrodite's calandar. Persistance. Heh. :o) Yes, I am still attracted to her. Not sure where I want this to go just yet, but other aspects of my life have already been cleaned up, which is important to me no matter what happens this point going forward. Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:12:52 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#38c0affe-c23a-4b1d-bb26-1ee8d685d346 Wyatt 2007-10-20T18:12:52Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#638df5eb-141f-484b-b4b2-7d7f94374f06 Okay, one other thought. Feel like I'm talking to myself -- hope this does not sound like monopolizing the "conversation" here but think this idea may be important to consider. I notice that as an ENFP, I need so often to *slow down* -- i.e. less dinners out with friends, meetings to attend, outings, ovebooking my self with projects and social apts. Last night I threw out a blanket under a tree at sunset and just read from a book. It was so lovely and I thought : "Why don't I do this more often? I need this." Well, part of the reason is that Mr. INTJ is in a phase where he needs alone time to process and think about a decision. It's related to going on a trip together with another person. This will happen with an INTJ. The need to be alone and process. During these times, I make myself scarce. So here's the upshot. The INTJ needs space to live, breathe, function. We ENFP's need it, too, though we may fight it tooth and nail sometimes. What works is that when INTJ needs space, I can connect with vairous dear friends in my friend networks, and then i can also find the time to have the downtime I really need. And hopefully With extraverted ex's in my past, I never really slowed down much. Life got even more hectic and went even faster. Now I feel like I can catch my breath a little , too, and I really enjoy that. Thoughts? Reactions? Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:28:18 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#638df5eb-141f-484b-b4b2-7d7f94374f06 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-18T16:28:18Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#afceccf4-ec6a-4558-89e9-3b309514254b Keep your chin up. There's is someone out there for you. I don't know exactly how to capture a good ENFP either. Wish I did. Heh. The one I want believes in star signs... and we are not compatible that way... and I don't even MATCH MY starsign in thinking or behavior... Good thing she doesn't know my starsign yet.... o_O Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:09:38 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#afceccf4-ec6a-4558-89e9-3b309514254b Wyatt 2007-10-18T03:09:38Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#918e6a26-2c00-47f9-be8d-41ee201f9fad tribe's back up -- any feedback on the issues we're discussing? Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:01:25 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#918e6a26-2c00-47f9-be8d-41ee201f9fad ENFP dreamer 2007-10-18T03:01:25Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#2586c0bb-e80d-470f-a6a5-a30634f96c20 you know Vicky Jo, I'll confess to being annoyed by the tone of this post as being pushy and judgmental. this reaction caused me to visit your infj or infp site. now i'm starting to see your point of view, and my understanding of type is increasing exponentially these days. so thanks! Thu, 18 Oct 2007 02:39:55 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#2586c0bb-e80d-470f-a6a5-a30634f96c20 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-18T02:39:55Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#315d0511-a3d9-4601-bb97-cc17e16f5b90 "Ugh. Courtship is the worst. I lose my appetite, lose the ability to concentrate at work, question myself, lose perspective on what's really happening. Such a drain of energy.... kind of fun, though. Exciting. Thrilling. But I can't do it more than once per year or so." It's so funny you are so describing all the things I'm going through. I had no idea it was so bad for you guys, too. I'll try to remember this, on the off chance he's going through any of this. I dunno, more and more I lose heart. I haven't done any of the things you proposed I do in terms of saying anything to him. I had another INTJ guy ask me out (this guy studies life coaching stuff and knew his MBTI type), but I turned him down. Nothing like having all your eggs in one basket and doing nothing about it. The whole process is torture -- what can't we stop doing this? Is the ENFP-INTJ thing realy worth it? Is it just a fairy tale? Help -- I'm discouraged! Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:05:29 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#315d0511-a3d9-4601-bb97-cc17e16f5b90 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-16T19:05:29Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#053a08eb-d835-4d41-b9b9-073154b05a2f <<Ugh. Courtship is the worst. I lose my appetite, lose the ability to concentrate at work, question myself, lose perspective on what's really happening. Such a drain of energy.... kind of fun, though. Exciting. Thrilling. But I can't do it more than once per year or so. When a new relationship begins, I'm just a wreck for the first month. >> Yeah. Then there's that. It is what happens when I really, really like a particular girl. Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:31:10 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#053a08eb-d835-4d41-b9b9-073154b05a2f Wyatt 2007-10-16T18:31:10Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#57fa55e2-c964-45f6-8636-857aa937bf3f "I used to be this way when I was younger. Now I can go either way depending on what her game is. I can actually be rejected and behave gracefully while it happens. I don't prefer games usually, but they can be very fun and entertaining if they are not hurtful. Seriously, I used to hate this, but now I kind of enjoy it. A little. It helps to practice being vulnerable in a graceful way, so you know how to behave when it happens. Just go through a few thought processes of what you would say, or do in a given situatuion or two." Ugh. Courtship is the worst. I lose my appetite, lose the ability to concentrate at work, question myself, lose perspective on what's really happening. Such a drain of energy.... kind of fun, though. Exciting. Thrilling. But I can't do it more than once per year or so. When a new relationship begins, I'm just a wreck for the first month. Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:40:03 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#57fa55e2-c964-45f6-8636-857aa937bf3f $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-15T22:40:03Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6d15f179-bd54-47cb-aa49-2b2e29ab3725 Hi r21left!! <<1. No chit chat is good. Picking up a deep conversation as if there's no break is ideal. I don't ever need the warm-up, I can just turn on a switch and get back into it. But I do the warm-up for others. >> We are similar here. <<2. I dislike showing anyone I like them. I'm funny like that. It has to do with being exposed, vulnerable... what's more raw than putting your feelings for someone out there for them to dismiss or reject. The whole flirting thing, courtship, the chase... it's somehow "beneath" me...but I still go through the ritual. >> I used to be this way when I was younger. Now I can go either way depending on what her game is. I can actually be rejected and behave gracefully while it happens. I don't prefer games usually, but they can be very fun and entertaining if they are not hurtful. Seriously, I used to hate this, but now I kind of enjoy it. A little. It helps to practice being vulnerable in a graceful way, so you know how to behave when it happens. Just go through a few thought processes of what you would say, or do in a given situatuion or two. <<3. ...ask him flat out "look - i like you. do you like me?" and say it with a hint of annoyance, put him in his place. he'll turn to mush. Revel in your sadness and annoyance. Own it. Then turn it into action and you'll break through this rut. >> This would actually work on me. Makes me giddy just thinking about it. Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:28:30 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6d15f179-bd54-47cb-aa49-2b2e29ab3725 Wyatt 2007-10-15T22:28:30Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3c60e55f-65da-48aa-a916-568bfe6cf6a7 Hi r21left!! <<1. No chit chat is good. Picking up a deep conversation as if there's no break is ideal. I don't ever need the warm-up, I can just turn on a switch and get back into it. But I do the warm-up for others. >> We am similar, here. <<2. I dislike showing anyone I like them. I'm funny like that. It has to do with being exposed, vulnerable... what's more raw than putting your feelings for someone out there for them to dismiss or reject. The whole flirting thing, courtship, the chase... it's somehow "beneath" me...but I still go through the ritual. >> I used to be like that. I don't mind so much anymore. I can go either way on showing them I like them. Depends on what her game is. I usually prefer no games. But I do like playing them sometimes as long as they are not hurtful. It is entertaining. Creates anticipation. <<3. ... ask him flat out "look - i like you. do you like me?" and say it with a hint of annoyance, put him in his place. he'll turn to mush. Revel in your sadness and annoyance. Own it. Then turn it into action and you'll break through this rut. >> This would actually work on me. Kinda makes my heart go pitter-patter just thinking about it. Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:19:47 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3c60e55f-65da-48aa-a916-568bfe6cf6a7 Wyatt 2007-10-15T22:19:47Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9c7ed52b-66b0-4494-ac82-87d5eca62201 Thanks, I needed a good, swift, INTJ kick in the butt! Hi-ya! :) Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:20:55 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9c7ed52b-66b0-4494-ac82-87d5eca62201 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-15T21:20:55Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#09aa7c99-2253-4b52-8698-1c443665b93e 1. No chit chat is good. Picking up a deep conversation as if there's no break is ideal. I don't ever need the warm-up, I can just turn on a switch and get back into it. But I do the warm-up for others. 2. I dislike showing anyone I like them. I'm funny like that. It has to do with being exposed, vulnerable... what's more raw than putting your feelings for someone out there for them to dismiss or reject. The whole flirting thing, courtship, the chase... it's somehow "beneath" me...but I still go through the ritual. 3. I think you've reached a breaking point when you can't analyze things anymore. Hopefully the exasperation will be more unbearable than the fear of rejection, thus causing you to do something drastic like, i dunno, ask him flat out "look - i like you. do you like me?" and say it with a hint of annoyance, put him in his place. he'll turn to mush. Revel in your sadness and annoyance. Own it. Then turn it into action and you'll break through this rut. Mon, 15 Oct 2007 20:50:01 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#09aa7c99-2253-4b52-8698-1c443665b93e $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-15T20:50:01Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#54a92afb-bbd0-44cc-964d-e560fc68f6d0 Last night I saw Mr. INTJ at a party with most of our mutual friends. I was an hour late (unusual for me) b/c I was out having coffee with a female INTJ friend processing all my woes and helping her be supoprted while she creid a little. I think I help INTJ women cry. not sure how this happens. She says she feels so accepted and I certainly wanted to be there for her. Her 2 cents were : "I don't process like you, but I get you. And you certainly get me." But I digress. So I'm having a hard time making sense of Mr. INTJ behavior in a party/group setting. He does not seem to seek out my company. I don't even think he's shy. He talks to various people somewhat, is good at making initial small talk, and seems perkier around others. With me there's this dynamic of I go visit him at some point and we just start up talking just where we left off. No chit chat. A sign of moving to more inner circles or boredom with me/ taking me for granted/ or worse yet, a sign that I should run for the hills, because I'm in danager!?!? Oh well, maybe it can't be analyzed any more. I just started asking questions here so I didn't make ENFP assumptions about someone with INTJ preferences. An effort to better *understand* someone who is handling things very differently from how I would. It is so hard for me to make sense of the idea that a man could like a woman and not show it somehow, anyway at all. I just want to understand, to learn. Maybe it's being shown in ways I'm missing or downplaying or maybe I'm delusional and there's nothing to see . . . Ugh, sad unicorn . . . :( Mon, 15 Oct 2007 20:16:35 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#54a92afb-bbd0-44cc-964d-e560fc68f6d0 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-15T20:16:35Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b06d75ed-6f2e-45da-a1cc-67c81f6745e3 ROFLOL. Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:58:17 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b06d75ed-6f2e-45da-a1cc-67c81f6745e3 Vicky Jo 2007-10-15T19:58:17Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#505d9e93-06cd-478a-b6c5-3a9535818adf that's a joke by the way... but if you were just getting ready to fire off a missive elucidating the necessity of emotion, then I conclude you have proven yourself an intj Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:48:55 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#505d9e93-06cd-478a-b6c5-3a9535818adf john 2007-10-15T18:48:55Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9e44c57c-9440-4600-a4d2-59e9dbf13b93 >> ...using Thinking to solve Feeling problems or Feeling to solve Thinking It occurs to me that if everyone would start THINKing, then we wouldn't have to waste time with this FEELing thing... what is wrong with the rest of the world anyway?... Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:46:08 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9e44c57c-9440-4600-a4d2-59e9dbf13b93 john 2007-10-15T18:46:08Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d2914b57-6e00-4733-a690-baa3cefe3127 >> Last night met up with Mr. INTJ at a rock concert. Great music. Stood on his left. He stood slightly in front of me, which sent me into the internal thinking tailspin. FWIW (intj, 40+ and married 16 years)... I don't honestly believe it would have entered my mind when dating to predicate the depth of a relationship on where I was standing. I'm _barely_ smart enough today to look for a ring to determine if someone is single or married. Food for thought... thinking back on dating, I might put hypothesize that I wasn't jealous so much as concerned that someone was interfering with my carefully conceived plan to find a wife. Internal difference being whether the reaction was seated more in emotion or reason. External difference?? probably none... Took a while to understand that others have this mostly irrational thing called "jealousy". Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:39:58 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d2914b57-6e00-4733-a690-baa3cefe3127 john 2007-10-15T18:39:58Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f0f489f6-c18e-4e10-b771-5d2da9bddc04 My remarks are led by *** <<Also want to say that this is a deconstruction for the sake of analysis only.>> Please elaborate here. Deconstruction for the sake of analysis only... as opposed to what else? What else can we do? *** I always bear in mind that a personality is an intact, whole *system*. Only in theory may it be deconstructed, and separated into "parts" with tiny little labels on them. Real-live people are not formulas or algorithms. *** Thus, an INTJ is NOT composed of I + N + T + P..... NOR are they comprised of Ni + Te + Fi + Se, etc. (You hear this kind of nonsense showing up in type language sometimes. The flaw becomes particularly apparent when someone claims to be something like INTJ/P -- which is nonsensical once you understand the theory. *** So I'm merely pitching the reminder out that these things can't be separated into tidy little component parts like INTJs are so fond of. People are not "things" -- and they can never be entirely separated from the context of the *whole*. RIght? << Remember, a person is a whole system, not a combination of "parts." INTJs are not exactly alike. It's always helpful to keep that in mind -- not to overlook other influences, such as age, experience, environment. >> Yeah, I think we all got a good education in the differences with some good dialog with John a little while ago. This was most interesting to me. I liked watching his responses, and others responses to him. They looked almost exactly like mine would have looked ten years ago, only he is older than me. But I understood EXACTLY where he was coming from, and going, and what he was intending to do. *** Mmmmm, you sound rather like my INTJ husband, who makes similar comments all the time about INTJs he encounters. I surmise it's interesting to see where you've been, and imagine where you might be going. ;-) <<(And no, you cannot measure "strength" of a preference. It's a nonsensical question when you bear down on it. ;-D)>> Hey, let's bear down on it. Why is it nonsensical? First, are we both of the opinion that there "exists" a strength of preference dimension (I am), or are we only saying that it "cannot be measured"? OR are we saying there has not been a method developed "YET" to measure it? *** Okay, let's bear down on it. What on earth would "strength" of a preference mean? It would either mean one is being DOMINEERING with it (which I don't think is what you are proposing); or it would mean that the person has relinquished use of the other processes in order to favor this one -- in which case, somebody who is "off-the-scale with their 'N' strength" would have to be flakier than the Pillsbury Doughboy (once again not a very flattering notion methinks). These are two ways of quantifying "strength." What else could "strength" refer to in the context of psychological type? (Bearing in mind, of course, that Jung's viewpoint of psychological type is that human beings tend to have a *problem* of being too "one-sided," and his theory was intended to help people develop the other aspects of themselves and overcome that -- so, again, celebrating "one-sidedness" is illogical within the context of Jung's theory. :-/) *** I concede that a process may be more *developed* in its use with some individuals than others. Particularly in environments (families? cultures?) where use of a certain process is discouraged might result in less development of a preferred process than might be optimal for that individual. But even then, it's not like there is an easy yardstick to measure that. It's possible the person has adapted quite well but has found ways to disguise or compensate with another process so as to *look* like they aren't using it. (INTJs seem particularly good at masking their Ni, which is culturally less acceptable than their Te -- although some INTJs look a little one-sided with their Te because the culture has encouraged to mistrust their own best gift. :-/) *** Contrary to your wondering above (about the eight processes being "common knowledge"), Dr. John Beebe began developing this notion of the "sequence of eight" in 1988, and is still in the process of evolving his theory. Many type enthusiasts are unfamiliar with his ideas, and with others there is resistance to his viewpoint in some parts of the type community (particularly amongst the "old guard"). Only three of the eight qualifying program providers teach his version of the theory. Most people suppose they know everything there is to know about type by using the MBTI's 4 dichotomy scales (I/E, S/N, F/T, J/P), and are loath to update their thinking with an improved framework. *** So that's why we have confusion out there with X's and people calling themselves by two type patterns at the same time, or otherwise trying to slice and dice the code up because they don't really understand it. (The "strength" nonsense came about from people thinking the scores they get from taking the MBTI represent "strength" rather than "degree of clarity.") The whole thing starts to look like a mongrel Heinz 57 breed, or like E=MC(2) except on Tuesdays when we like it to mean something else altogether. =8-O *** Anyway, one of the better type books now available is titled "8 Keys to Self-Leadership" by Dario Nardi (INTJ), and it describes the 8 functions in greater depth, and indicates what level of development one may have achieved for each one of them. Nardi describes the processes in depth, and provides a self-assessment in each chapter for a person to ascertain how well developed they are in using each of the processes. *** That's as close as I'm willing to get to conceding any aspect of type could be called "strength" of a process (if it's translated to "level of development") -- and my hunch is that most people aren't nearly that sophisticated and are relying on those numbers they get from some "test" or what they hear others say. *** Truthfully, I don't myself care all that much how "strong" or even "developed" the processes are for most people -- I'm more interested in whether or not they are matching their processes appropriately to any given task: for instance, using Feeling to solve Feeling problems, and Thinking to solve Thinking problems -- not using Thinking to solve Feeling problems or Feeling to solve Thinking problems! (INTJs may have some horror stories to share about attempting to do this unsuccessfully....?) An ability to use the right process for a given problem is a more accurate indication of individuation than measuring whatever someone might call "strength." *** Is that drilled down enough, or can I stop now? ;-D Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:24:25 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#f0f489f6-c18e-4e10-b771-5d2da9bddc04 Vicky Jo 2007-10-15T18:24:25Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#e9e8cb00-b976-4883-98be-f2fd9a3b3a1c OMG it must be an ENFP thing because that is exactly how i feel about the INTJ whenever i get around him!!!! wow your P must be really good. Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:19:04 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#e9e8cb00-b976-4883-98be-f2fd9a3b3a1c dami 2007-10-15T00:19:04Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c6e15b94-1b60-46f1-94af-3516a39f6075 ENFP dreamer: I get HIGHLY jealous over girls that i really, really like early in a relationship. I can be MADE to be jealous when someone I like a lot presses the right buttons. AND it can be very hurtful. But here's the thing: I don't show it. Ever. It will eat me up inside. It will depress me. But I will not show it. It would be very, very embarrassing for me to show that I am jealous. In fact, only recently have i come to terms with myself in this area, when I began considering what a polyamorous relationship is really like, and that some ENFP's claim that they seem to be meant for that lifestyle. I must admit, this lifestyle is not one that would be my first choice, but going through the mental excercise of imagining myself in one really opened my mind to what it would take emotionally, and to do that, i had to "rewire" and "redefine" some of my conceptions of loving someone completely. I had to shift my paradigm on some things briefly. I think allowing your partner to sleep with someone else with your consent, and NOT be hurt over it (and in fact be happy with it) involves a very selfless kind of love for someone. I must admit that I struggle with this concept, but I think I understand it to a (very) small degree. I am not even at all certain that these types of relationships are at all stable. Mathematically, bodies of three or more imply chaos (the statement originally referred to celestal bodies locked in one anothers orbits-- but it applies to ANY mathematical system-- and people relations can be modelled by very complex nonlinear systems-- as opposed to John's argument that people are like computer programs-- or maybe it was a metaphor... I am not making a metaphor. I am serious). After I have been in a relationship for a long time, and I feel secure in it, jealously is non-existant. Unless she is doing things to create mis-trust. Then i can get jealous again. It is highly dependant to me on how I read the trustworthiness of my partner, and the degree to which my heart is tied into her. Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:42:39 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c6e15b94-1b60-46f1-94af-3516a39f6075 Wyatt 2007-10-14T20:42:39Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c8813715-20b0-4445-9578-e5417c3a4763 <<Also want to say that this is a deconstruction for the sake of analysis only.>> Please elaborate here. Deconstruction for the sake of analysis only... as opposed to what else? What else can we do? << Remember, a person is a whole system, not a combination of "parts." INTJs are not exactly alike. It's always helpful to keep that in mind -- not to overlook other influences, such as age, experience, environment. >> Yeah, I think we all got a good education in the differences with some good dialog with John a little while ago. This was most interesting to me. I liked watching his responses, and others responses to him. They looked almost exactly like mine would have looked ten years ago, only he is older than me. But I understood EXACTLY where he was coming from, and going, and what he was intending to do. <<(And no, you cannot measure "strength" of a preference. It's a nonsensical question when you bear down on it. ;-D)>> Hey, let's bear down on it. Why is it nonsensical? First, are we both of the opinion that there "exists" a strength of preference dimension (I am), or are we only saying that it "cannot be measured"? OR are we saying there has not been a method developed "YET" to measure it? Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:24:03 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c8813715-20b0-4445-9578-e5417c3a4763 Wyatt 2007-10-14T20:24:03Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d63cdc4e-c6be-476c-9558-832899df8f48 Well, the jealousy is very brief and slight. "What *is* that feeling?" Then comes the "oh, get over yourself. Jealousy is so BANAL, so HUMAN..." so perhaps even the guilt is subdued. But everything else is pretty much there. Sun, 14 Oct 2007 08:12:14 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d63cdc4e-c6be-476c-9558-832899df8f48 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-14T08:12:14Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#ff5ac2e8-e28a-41a0-bc18-fa0994435c6a I'll give you an example... I was at a party today, talking mostly to a female co-worker. She's with someone else and my interest in her is strictly friendly. At some point, when the conversation slowed, she turned to talk to a friend of hers. They were whispering and looking in my direction but I just looked at my cellphone mostly. Then my friend comes up to me and starts talking about her friend. I say, "that's nice," etc., making small talk about her. But, apparently my friend was trying to gauge my interest in her friend. By all accounts I should have known what was happening. It was only later, when I had left the party, that I realized what was happening. This probably doesn't fall under the "blindsided by love category," but it's one example of us INTJs being oblivious to others' interest in us. Sun, 14 Oct 2007 08:09:56 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#ff5ac2e8-e28a-41a0-bc18-fa0994435c6a $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-14T08:09:56Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#4995b25e-77cc-49cd-8d6e-1d84e9d8dbc6 okay, r21l, you wrote: <<Your description of jealousy->guilt->inferiority->avoidance is also very familiar. >> INTJ's get jealous? I thought you were impervious to that . . . (I'm actually being serious here) Sun, 14 Oct 2007 02:43:13 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#4995b25e-77cc-49cd-8d6e-1d84e9d8dbc6 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-14T02:43:13Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6b12a575-bb8d-4543-876a-8c66b2095fbf okay, well, even though we figured out that we end up in our own wierd little world, let's keep discussing. it's too important . . . and it's too much fun! Do you agree with Wyatt that INTJ's can be oblivious to someone right there and then feel *blindsided* by love? That is so hard for an ENFP to understand! How does that work? Sun, 14 Oct 2007 02:36:13 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6b12a575-bb8d-4543-876a-8c66b2095fbf ENFP dreamer 2007-10-14T02:36:13Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#20a3b628-55e6-4799-b2dc-ed63f224aa6d <<I'd feel better if that got cited properly. www.BestFitType.com , right? (If it was your creation, you'd want the credit yourself, I'm sure. And on that note, one of the creators does have INTJ prefs.) >> Thank you, Vicky Jo. I am not trying to take credit for anyone's work, but I truthfully didn't know where it came from anymore. I have it emptied into an excel file that I work out of becasue I have found it useful. I assumed that the information was "common Knowledge" among people familiar with Type processes. But, it looks like we have that fixed now. I will record the cite in my excel sheet so they stay together. Thanks for weighing in with your post. Always nice to hear your thoughts. Sat, 13 Oct 2007 22:47:13 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#20a3b628-55e6-4799-b2dc-ed63f224aa6d Wyatt 2007-10-13T22:47:13Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#356419b3-b850-4254-acf4-aec409b390cb "Boy, we must seem really strange to other types! But who cares, we get to have our own wierd little world! :) Who would have thought it could be like this!" I think you just made the case for the INTJ-ENFP pairing... if nothing else, who would understand us? Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:36:46 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#356419b3-b850-4254-acf4-aec409b390cb $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-13T21:36:46Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6208ee20-9335-4c4f-8896-49e0033a69ea your metaphor is great. I concur. what i'm learning is that I have to trust my intuition. Something is going on. It doesn't matter what my friends say (so many are negative) or his friends (most think he just sees me as a friend -- I have not said I liked him to any of them). So many *outsiders* don't get it. They are all about convention and their observations are so full of projection of their own values, opinions and fears. I have to focus on what I intuitively know is going on. Because he is an INTJ, it is a private experience, and it's not a microwave method. It's funny to think the 2nd conversation is the real one -- the subtext. That means a lot of great fun is in store! and it's inherently fluctuating and unpredictable. I envisioned last night at the concert an arc of electricity sparking between my heart and his. But maybe I am just losing in this process! Boy, we must seem really strange to other types! But who cares, we get to have our own wierd little world! :) Who would have thought it could be like this! Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:23:35 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6208ee20-9335-4c4f-8896-49e0033a69ea ENFP dreamer 2007-10-13T21:23:35Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#a9a550af-4352-4847-b90e-e0f54b7672f0 baby steps... i think you entered his "inner circle," or a closer one. We actually have this type of system. Lol, I was thinking about it the other day, trying to come up with the perfect metaphor. What I have thus far is an atom. In the center of the nucleus are the proton and neutron. One is me, the other is my crush/significant other). Then, the next closest friends are in the first-order (sharp) orbital. The next-closest set of friends in the second-order (principle) orbital, etc. etc. It's a very good sign that he drops whatever he does to talk to you. Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:07:39 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#a9a550af-4352-4847-b90e-e0f54b7672f0 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-13T21:07:39Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#276753d8-71f2-4111-9eae-0815baafebbe Yes, we ENFP's are enthusiastic. But like I've been telling Wyatt, we have different relational circles in our lives. Inner circle closest, dearest, favorite people. 2nd tier close friends. 3rd tier friends. 4th tier good acquaintances. 5th tier acquaintances. I think we light up truly for those who are in the inner circle or candidates for it. We have *favorite people.* AJ, help me out here. Do you agree? Just because we have many friends doesn't mean we value them equally. Quite the contrary. You would want to ascertain if you are inner circle. Because when you are, you won't just connect over shared passions (topics that get us to light up), but she'll travel with you into what you like, even if she doesn't initially have a passion for it. If she is enthusiastic with you consistently across a number of situations and coversation topics, and it is sustained enthusiasm, then you just might be an object of desire/interest. Because if it's just our general enthusiasm, it would be topical, situational, and would flame out when the novelty wears off. I wonder what similarly subtle signals an INTJ would send off that might give clues into his inner feelings (if they exist). I notice that he seems really upbeat when i call him now, almost sounds really happy to talk (it wasn't always this way). And we talk in a more familiar way (when I call him now I just say, Hey, what are you doing? instead of old days when I'd say Hey Mr. INTJ, it's me MS. ENFP calling for x reason, etc.). And if he has to do something, he doesn't use it as a way to get off the phone, he says he'll do whatever and call me back. So that seems positive. If only he'd call first . . . :) Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:44:45 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#276753d8-71f2-4111-9eae-0815baafebbe ENFP dreamer 2007-10-13T20:44:45Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b3a4eaae-a052-4f97-87fa-c3a83ec3b68f The parallels are uncanny. You asked if INTJs express love/affection through their eyes. Totally. You also were wondering if Mr. INTJ is like that all the time or just with you. And of course, you could never see what his eyes say unless you're there. This is exactly what I wonder with regards to ENFPs, except in the context of expressing enthusiasm in general rather than just through the eyes. I often ask if she is like that because of me or like that all the time. Your description of jealousy->guilt->inferiority->avoidance is also very familiar. The metaphor of ships passing through the night seems apt here. if the feelings are mutual, it would be a shame if no one made the first move. Do you suppose you could casually make light of what the drunk blond said? (That she's drunk does not mean she's any less intuitive. Just less inhibited in intruding into other people's business!!) Maybe make a joke, or say, "boy, that blone girl from the concert was really crazy... that's funny what she said about us... what do you think about that?" Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:16:57 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b3a4eaae-a052-4f97-87fa-c3a83ec3b68f $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-13T20:16:57Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#979b311c-c6d1-402a-8749-2b40ad87f92c Oh, and just so you know, all the inner monologue you described about How am I standing? Am I saying too much or too little? etc. etc. is going on in our heads, too. It's amazing to learn we're thinking such similar things! I had no idea! :) Nothing like shared neuroses! :) Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:40:11 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#979b311c-c6d1-402a-8749-2b40ad87f92c ENFP dreamer 2007-10-13T19:40:11Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3748096c-da7d-4bb8-a392-f3cf162dda4d hey r21l I have a great very recent example that may answer some of your question related to ENFP's and feelings (Fi and such). This is great, because it will give me a place to brain dump and process a little. Last night met up with Mr. INTJ at a rock concert. Great music. Stood on his left. He stood slightly in front of me, which sent me into the internal thinking tailspin. What does that mean? Why is he not standing behind me, letting me see better, standing in I'll protect you and save you if you fall backwards position? Is this a sign via body language that I am not of significance to him? To make matters worse is drunk blonde on the right who decided to start throwing herself on him at the end of the show during the encore. She's leaning on him, into him, whispering stuff in his ear while the loud music is playing. I mean, I was leaving him alone during the songs to enjoy one of his favorite bands, but she doesn't know that about him or care about things like that. So here's what happens inside this ENFP at that point: JEALOUSLY!!!!!! broken down into layers of anger, fear and hurt. Cue the twisting stomach, blinding emotion. Like the emotional tacometer had just hit the red zone and I'm about to blow the engine. Then comes guilt. Jealousy is wrong. *values* Fi kicking in here. He's a free man. You don't believe in possessing people or being possessed. Then self-defeat, you'll never be able to compete with a pretty blonde. You're only going to lose this fight. Sadness. And then comes the overwhelming flight instinct. Get out of here!!!! Run!!!! Save yourself!!!!! *Te to the rescue* helping to make the exit plan Tell him I'm going to leave. Then he pays me attention, ignores blonde, looks concerned. then I say, well, maybe i'll stay for one more song. Then blonde comes over, after seeing us leaning in and talking. She says, with drunked slurred words, "I'm sorry." looking at me, as if she's talking to the g/f. then she looks at us both together, takes her two hands and draws a heart in the air around us and says: "You two are in love!" now I know she's blonde and drunk (and I am neither), but what just happened? :) keep in mind, last time we hung out, a homeless man seranaded us and sang a song to me, telling Mr. INTJ --"This one's for your lady." Is God stepping in and saying something to Mr. INTJ when I"m too chicken to do it? Okay, so here's the deal. I feel *****so much**** inside toward him, but work overtime to have Te keep it in check so I don't look retarded. If I"m away from him, think about him for 2 seconds, I am flooded with feelings. The first time I see him when we hang out, I can't breathe right and have to struggle to think at all. There is a great deal of feeling inside. But there is a war inside. Because I can't get a read at all on his feelings. So my Fi, I suppose, strongly value that sense of being loved and loving in return, more than just about anything else in the world. And I can't tell if I am loved at this point, so my feelings just swirl around inside. So Te starts analyzing the feelings, through the value grid from Fi, so they can be subjugated, or at least categorized, so put them into some kind of boxes, hoping this will help me function better around him. Actually expressing them to him verbally is extremely difficult, because he has not initiated that type of talk, and in my Fi value system emotional safety is so important, so doing so seems very risky. You are right, then -- enter layer 2 of conversation -- subtext, if you will. The land of eye contact, body language, innuendo, what is not said. This is the only place the feelings have to go. Maybe I start glowing around him -- I can feel something burning in my eyes when I look at his -- and that's why people are saying things to us about love. I see light in his eyes, but I don't know if I light them up or if they are always that way. How can I know? I only see them when I look at them. Do INTJ's show love through their eyes, the looks you give? I have noticed that . . . There are always 2 conversations going on and I keep wanting to touch him. Just be near him. And what unlocks an expression of feeling is when he demonstrates or verbalizes understanding me and loyalty to me. The Fi assesses safety and acceptance, a green light for some squeaking out of expression of feeling. What would really unlock the expression is him expressing some of it first, difficult for the INTJ, fueling the sexual tension and subtext further. But make no mistake, the ENFP is full of feeling, it's just sometimes locked in a deep well inside and all that is displayed are the values . . . Is this helpful? Does this make sense? Have you guys experienced anything like it? If so, what is it like on your end? Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:06:21 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#3748096c-da7d-4bb8-a392-f3cf162dda4d ENFP dreamer 2007-10-13T19:06:21Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#ffdb128d-49c2-4e8c-b7be-71cc4d274910 I'd feel better if that got cited properly. www.BestFitType.com , right? (If it was your creation, you'd want the credit yourself, I'm sure. And on that note, one of the creators does have INTJ prefs.) Also want to say that this is a deconstruction for the sake of analysis only. Remember, a person is a whole system, not a combination of "parts." INTJs are not exactly alike. It's always helpful to keep that in mind -- not to overlook other influences, such as age, experience, environment. Don't leave out the possibility of mis-typing while you're at it. Keirsey suggests every other person may be mis-typed, so always take the code with a grain of salt. (And no, you cannot measure "strength" of a preference. It's a nonsensical question when you bear down on it. ;-D) Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:06:18 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#ffdb128d-49c2-4e8c-b7be-71cc4d274910 Vicky Jo 2007-10-13T19:06:18Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#5167a7ac-c3b0-402c-9442-59f25d231a07 Well since you've asked... This post might be kind of rambly and stream-of-consciousness-ish. But given the audience, I don't think that's going to be a problem ; ) So a basic interaction that I might have witha girl who I am interested in takes place like so: We're communicating, I say something, she responds, she says something, I respond, etc. But the whole time there's like a million calculations going on: do I make sense? Is she confused? Am I boring her? Do I sound excited enough about this topic? If I try to sound more passionate about it, will that seem fake? Do I look stoic and bored? Should I smile? Does *that* seem fake? Is she happy to be here? Bored? Am I talking too much? Too little? Is the conversation going smoothly? Akward? Am I talking too much about myself? Are we talking too much about her such that it seems that I've got something to hide? Am I sustaining enough eye contact? Too much? What does my body language say? Am I closed off? Turned toward her? Is it too obvious? Should I be more discrete while still indicating interest? Am I overthinking things? If I were to try to act naturally, would that cause me to seem artificial? Would the fear of seeming artificial make me seem too wooden and stiff? And on and on and on. All this is going on more or less at once and continuously in the background while the conversation is going on. And that's just my analysis of how I come across, which doesn't even include my interpretation of her body language, tone of voice, etc. I don't know if the above example is common to INTJs or intuitives or whatever. I'm much more N-heavy than T-heavy. About 88% N and only ~50% T. When I was younger, I read a family member's book about Body Language one summer (the family member is a psychologist) , and for about 2 months I couldn't have a normal interaction with anyone, because my mind would be awash with analysis of their body language and my own. Things normalized after that summer, but now that type of analysis is relegated to the background, where it's always turned "on." The point of that example is that, with ENFPs, it's like there's two conversations going on. One takes place in "normal space" - via oral communication. But the other conversation takes place in "meta space," or whatever you want to call it. All of the mental questions that I pose to myself seem to be answered by her solely via body language and tone of voice. It's like a dance, where both of us lead and follow at the same time. This secondary conversation, the fact that it's taking place and there's a dialogue going on (as opposed to a soliloquy lol) is quite exciting and electric; this excitment enlivens the oral conversation, and I find myself more comfortable, which in turn makes the conversation(s) all the more exciting and spontaneous. I think it takes another intuitive to tune into that second conversation. And it takes an intuitive who has keen interpersonal abilities to do something about it - to put the other person at ease. I find xNFPs to have this ability, more so than J's or T's. But as between and INFP and and ENFP, I think there's more compatibility with an ENFP. I've dated an INFP, and as wonderful as that was, there's was an absence of passion that I think was due to our different communication styles (which is explained by Wyatt excellent post below regarding processes). I don't know what more I can say... if you've got some specific things you want to know, I'll be happy to try to answer! Sat, 13 Oct 2007 18:19:40 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#5167a7ac-c3b0-402c-9442-59f25d231a07 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-13T18:19:40Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#8fcb6303-083a-44ce-bda6-04cc19b9c4ba This post was great. Very informative. I've always wondered how the processes work together between different types, but I was always stymied by one thing or another. I find MBTI to be like an onion, and each year I'm peeling more and more layers... One of my friends is just now getting into, but I can't really talk to her about things like the post above because of the complexity involved. Maybe in 6 months or so. I noticed that ENFP's don't possess the Fe function high up. That's interesting. (As an aside, when people talk about F, there's two kinds: Fi, which corresponds more with values, and Fe, which corresponds more with emotions. So when people say INTJs have a hard time expressing emotions and their Feeling side is downplayed... to an exten this is true, only insofar as such statement pertains to Fe. Seeing as we have Fi as our tertiary function, and I for one make value judgments all the time, I wouldn't say my Feeling side is downplayed with regards to Fi). But anyway, the one thing I was to zero in on is this: do ENFPs have a hard time expressing emotions? I know this sounds strange, given the way ENFPs are -- outgoing, enthusiastic, passionate -- but those traits could be centered around external ideas and interests, not internal emotions. Would our resident ENFPs be able to offer some insight? Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:45:13 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#8fcb6303-083a-44ce-bda6-04cc19b9c4ba $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-13T17:45:13Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9c20f6e8-9888-4773-b08d-964be514c331 From AJ: <<I don't know, I just get so annoyyed from some of their stubberness, so I fire back and know exactly how to piss them off. I will say something they don't believe and then just stick by it and keep going on and on about it until they just flip out and start screaming. The only reason I ever do this is if I *feel* they are trying to annoy me just out of spite. I guess our relationship is a push push and then when we don't see each other for a while we both start freaking out. >> And doesn't it piss you off when they just sit there coolly, listen to everything you say, then continue on with the orignal plan of action/idea/whatever, as if they have summarily dismissed what you have just said? The best way to get an INTJ to change a course of action is to appeal to the logic/efficiency of their action. But, don't do it in a mean way that undermines them. Be nice. That being said, in a relationship, a little heat every now and then may go a long way to keeping things from blowing up later on. Just be careful, and make sure you two make up. I know I will put up with ALOT of stuff before I end a relationship. But once that decision has been made, it will end. I am very tolerant of my loved ones. I understand their point of view. The part that I don't understand, i toloerate and love that part of them. The little things in a relationship go a long long way in sustaining it. The little things you do every single day for that person that no one else can or will do. I don't know that I have EVER done anything just to annoy someone. It is a process with me: Plan, Execute, Evaluate result, Repeat. Once the plan is in place, and execution mode is in order, it is hard to change it on the fly. This is something that INTP's do rather well. Once I am in execution mode, I would rather live with the inefficiency in the plan (as long as it is minor) and make a note of it, and correct it in the plan the next time. I will go to great lengths to correct an error during execution phase, though, because I know the consequences of it later down the road are great. But your logic better be well thought out. If it isn't your INTJ partner may just summarily dismiss it. That being said, she will really really love you for your feeling and intuitiveness. All that she is not. Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:42:12 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#9c20f6e8-9888-4773-b08d-964be514c331 Wyatt 2007-10-13T16:42:12Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#8f00adfb-81df-439f-ba2d-02a4f351407c From ENFP dreamer: <<But I hardly ever see INTJ's explain specifically why they appreciate ENFP's. What do you guys like us? I want to figure out how the dynamic between works . . . it's really bugging me! I want to know so I don't feel insecure that other IJ's will beat me! :) >> I can say for myself, so far I can break ENFP's down into two types that I have experienced that appear extremely attractive to me, at least early in the romantic process. One is the type is very heavy on the F. These types seem able to evoke emotion out of me just by watching them and listening to them. They are able to draw my feelings out of me verbally that I would be oblivioius to otherwise. It is like they make me say and do things spontaneously that I would not say or do with anyone else. It is as if they are a conduit for me to let surface those subconcious feelings that I would otherwise not consider. Also, being heavy on the N is important, too. This is the other type. I am heavy on the N, and I find that the more one likes to use this, the more attractive that person is for me. I like the part of the P that is spontaneous, but not the part that spontanesously cuts me out of the picture. I like to be included. I am always afraid of being traded for something better. Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:25:46 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#8f00adfb-81df-439f-ba2d-02a4f351407c Wyatt 2007-10-13T16:25:46Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1e9b986b-9ba2-4fac-98ee-064708543cda From ENFP dreamer... <<It's interesting that no INTJ's have posted on this thread other than the thread originator. Has me wondering about a pessimistic theory that ENFP's may like INTJ's more than INTJ's like ENFP's.>> OR, maybe a bunch of INTJ's are out there internally processing for awhile before the post.. ;oP Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:11:45 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#1e9b986b-9ba2-4fac-98ee-064708543cda Wyatt 2007-10-13T16:11:45Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#740e5817-1dba-4c76-90a7-1aa1c0f39459 <<Other INTJs that opt in, as it were, and would choose an ENFP seem to do so because they aspire to have a more passionate relationship, at least outwardly so. More spontaneous, carefree, etc. They believe in the complementarity of functions that results in an INTJ-ENFP pairing.>> I prefer a highly passionate relationship, outwardly and inwardly. I have always felt this way. I have found that other types do not quite work as well for me at creating this highly passionate feeling that perpetuates itself. <<I'm really curious as to what accounts for this difference within the INTJ ranks. Does it correllate with T-heavy INTJs versus N-heavy INTJs? Can we identify gradations and sub-types within INTJs?>> I think it is dependant on several variables. We have considered the strength of the Ne<-->Ni dynamic pairing above, and of the other supporting processes. Now, let's look at how these processes can be satisfied on various levels within one's life. They can be satisfied within 1. an extended family unit (mother, father, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins) 2. an established network of ones friends (inner circle to outer circle) 3. a monogomous relationship (girl/boy friend, spouse) 4. a set of polyamorous relationships (yeah, all of that) Now, not everyone has the same level of extended family unit or established network of friends. 1. On family, you can't choose it (except for who you marry). We have what we are born with, and they will be nurturing to our needs or they won't be. 2. On friends, an INTJ who has been established in an area for a long time will have a wider and deeper network than if he/she has just settled in area, in which case it could take a very long time to build up that network. 3. So, when looking for that mate, spouse (or haram...o_O), what is the immediate need of the INTJ? What are they deficient in satisfying to reach that deeper level? I also think you are correct in assessing the strength of the letters, as it will also be an indicator of the strength of NEED to reach that deeper level, minus the need that the immediate environment is already providing. So, what does an equation look like? Let's try this one for a first stab (we can modify later, we are just having a little fun here): INTJ desire = INTJ process need - INTJ process fulfillment from immediate environment where INTJ process need is some function (I strength, N strength, T strength, J strength). Let's end this steam-of-conciousness thought on this note: I believe that we can sit down and write out on paper every single thing that we *think* we want or desire in a mate. The reality is when these people are presented in front of us and we instead choose someone COMPLETELY different becasue at that point we are feeding off of experiencing the *person*, and whatever chemistry is feeding back and forth between one another. The elements of learned attraction from our upbringing versus what is inate (and carnal) cannot be overlooked; i.e., sometimes we really can not help who we fall in love with. It may be someone who takes you completely by surprise, which is especially true with us INTJ's (we are so oblivious to the obvious sometimes, until it is *there*). <<PS I'm sorry for offending anyone -- INTJ, ENFP, or otherwise -- with any steretypical remark or overgeneralizations. There is a lot of room to quibble over the above remarks, but my question still stands, and that's what I want to explore.>> Oh, to hell with that. Let's stereotype and overgeneralize. I'm all for it. At the end, we can just throw out what doesn't make sense and issue apologies. I'd much rather have everything on the table to consider so we don't miss anything. ;oP Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:07:50 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#740e5817-1dba-4c76-90a7-1aa1c0f39459 Wyatt 2007-10-13T16:07:50Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#730efdc2-717b-4d1f-8c75-f68958199772 Hey, this might be beneficial before we get too far into this. Let's look at the processes of each and define what they are: Process___________ENFP____________INTJ ------------__________---------___________-------- 1_________________Ne______________Ni 2_________________Fi_______________Te 3_________________Te_______________Fi 4_________________Si_______________Se 5_________________Ni_______________Ne Ni - introverted iNtuiting Foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data; realizing “what will be”; conceptualizing new ways of seeing things; envisioning transformations; getting an image of profound meaning or far-reaching symbols. Ne - extraverted iNtuiting Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts. Te - extraverted Thinking Ordering; organizing for efficiency; systematizing; applying logic; structuring; checking for consequences; monitoring for standards or specifications being met; setting boundaries, guidelines, and parameters; deciding if something is working or not. Fi - introverted Feeling Valuing; considering importance and worth; reviewing for incongruity; evaluating something based on the truths on which it is based; clarifying values to achieve accord; deciding if something is of significance and worth standing up for. Se - extraverted Sensing Experiencing the immediate context; noticing changes and opportunities for action; being drawn to act on the physical world; accumulating experiences; scanning for visible reactions and relevant data; recognizing “what is”. Si - introverted Sensing Reviewing past experiences; “what is” evoking “what was”; seeking detailed information and links to what is known; recalling stored impressions; accumulating data; recognizing the way things have always been. So, let's first look at communication using the first function of each (and maybe with a little help from the supporting fuctions). Ne <--> Ni What does it look like? Well, it is the preferred method of each person, each expending a minimum amount of energy to use it as it is the most developed and preferred method of relating to our environment. ENFP (Ne; also she is talking out loud to think): "I wonder if ..." INTJ (Ni; listening, internally processing his thoughts, perhaps using a little Te to rank and organize and then reflecting): "Yes, it could be this or that.. but it probably means <whatever> because <whatever>..." ENFP (Ne; listening, internally processing using a little Fi to check the importance of the situation, check against her values): "Hmm.. you didn't say <whatever>. Ok, so if we do <whatever else> instead of <whatever else else> then we can be <whatever else else else>, and all is happy in la la land" INTJ (Ni): .... ENFP (Ne): .... You get the picture. So, this is my take. The first processes alone automatically create a naturally easy feedback loop between the two. The first processes are ALSO the fifth process of the other (shadow function), which when experienced in a postive light will appear very exotic, mysterious, or attractive. I think the strength of this feedback will depend on the strength of the of the Ne or Ni each possess. Theoretical practitioners of MBTI/Keirsey temperament will argue against being able to measure strength of preference, but let's assume that it is there, even if we cannot measure it. Also, notice that the second and third functions of both of these types are the same, only inverted so that one has a little stronger preference/development of it than the other, although both can weild these processes when they need to. This is really important, I believe, in providing that "more than superficial" relationship. Both are tuned into how the other is processing with their supporting functions. Sat, 13 Oct 2007 15:05:57 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#730efdc2-717b-4d1f-8c75-f68958199772 Wyatt 2007-10-13T15:05:57Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#4a3bc99e-925d-4814-885b-6dcd293a062f Yeah, it would be nice to hear some of the good stuff also. Go on R21. Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:45:19 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#4a3bc99e-925d-4814-885b-6dcd293a062f AJ 2007-10-13T09:45:19Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6f09d4db-92e8-4b64-971b-dc4dd1ab46e9 r21 l you said <With the ENFP, I don’t feel alien to another person. . . . I feel accepted unconditionally, understood through-and-through, and comfortable. . . .ENFPs are enthusiastic and passionate about things that matter to me. . . .I never connect with anyone like I do with an ENFP. . .conversations that can last for hours . . .stimulate the feeling that “with this person, anything is possible.” . . . I could go on and on . . .> Seriously please go on and on. I have to understand more from your perspective. You cannot be too rambly on this subject! If I'm going to keep climbing Mt. Everest, err, I mean, Mt. INTJ, I need some encouragement and information for the journey. Not to mention some of that chocolate, peanut, and raisin *trail mix* for along the way . . . :) Sat, 13 Oct 2007 05:42:27 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#6f09d4db-92e8-4b64-971b-dc4dd1ab46e9 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-13T05:42:27Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#e4adab51-45f5-4cc1-89d9-50eb03269c51 I don't know, I just get so annoyyed from some of their stubberness, so I fire back and know exactly how to piss them off. I will say something they don't believe and then just stick by it and keep going on and on about it until they just flip out and start screaming. The only reason I ever do this is if I *feel* they are trying to annoy me just out of spite. I guess our relationship is a push push and then when we don't see each other for a while we both start freaking out. Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:45:39 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#e4adab51-45f5-4cc1-89d9-50eb03269c51 AJ 2007-10-12T21:45:39Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d570f56b-c0ae-4e8c-9686-751af9e8a7ee also, I wonder if there is a built in push-pull to the ENFP-INTJ dynamic. I keep thinking that I experience that, particularly from the INTJ end. I wonder what that's about . . . Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:26:49 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d570f56b-c0ae-4e8c-9686-751af9e8a7ee ENFP dreamer 2007-10-12T19:26:49Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#e750068d-616b-45b8-8150-2b016392980f r21L, your response was so sweet and encouraging. I always feel like encouragement from an INTJ is worth a million dollars b/c it's judiciously given and very substantive. I can honestly say I personally felt my spirits buoyed and like a million bucks myself after reading it. Maybe all hope is not lost . . . :) I talked to Mr. INTJ crush the other day and he sounded so chatty, so upbeat, so . . . glad I called. If only I could figure you guys out, ah, but there's the rub. I like you because I can't. I LOVE the way INTJ's think. It's so exciting. I can't really explain it. It's startling, intriguing, and seldom simple. But I get it, can follow it, respect it. And then I do seem to circumvent certain defenses, not intentionally. I think I have a good gut for the INTJ, nothing I can explain or describe well, just a knowing, which is very intuitive, not at all deduced or reasoned through, just felt and experienced. With my INTJ friends, they will describe situations or experiences in great detail, and before long, I get a sense of how they are feeling about it. I'll say: "You're feeling lonely." or "You have a hard time respecting your boss because they don't work as hard or as well as you do." Just examples, but they almost always say it's dead on. As if it puts words onto feelings they have, but just don't realize they have or have a hard time nailing down. And usually they seem relieved afterwards, to be able to name a feeling and own it. :) I guess I feel the same way when they listen to process life out loud and then summarize it in one pithy sentence. :) Do others experience this or anything like it? I am so curious . . . Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:04:38 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#e750068d-616b-45b8-8150-2b016392980f ENFP dreamer 2007-10-12T19:04:38Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#00f95d9e-b66b-4e69-92ed-5ec751a804a4 > explain specifically why they appreciate ENFP's For me, it's fun. ENFPs tend to have lots of interesting friends, can organize a social calendar, and they throw great parties. Fri, 12 Oct 2007 15:33:15 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#00f95d9e-b66b-4e69-92ed-5ec751a804a4 Bob 2007-10-12T15:33:15Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b25ea702-74ad-4661-b3a7-fc6b78d73a0f >My friends tell me that the hardest part of being an INTJ, is no one gets you, but most also say that they don't give a shit what others think of them (is this true?). The last sentance confuses me. r21L: On the one hand, we want people to understand us. On the other hand, we can be pretty mercurial and guarded. Moreover, because we don't care what others think of us, there isn't a strong impetus to make ourselves emotionally available. Hence, no one gets us. It's kind of a feedback loop. That's why I like ENFPs. They can "break the cycle" and get through to us despite our emotional smoke-and-mirrors. >Are there socialized vs. non-socialized INTJ's? . . . sometimes you can just be pretty damn intolerant and have trouble expressing exactly what is on your mind. r21L: I think the ones that are socialized try to be more tolerant. Failing that, they refrain from being hostile and snapping at others or putting them in their place. They won't, however, give any indication that their tolerance is reaching its limits. The non-socialized INTJ's... well you already know about them. Not pretty. Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:54:39 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#b25ea702-74ad-4661-b3a7-fc6b78d73a0f $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-12T03:54:39Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c94738af-f0e2-4299-ae72-54e94fb0d775 My friends tell me that the hardest part of being an INTJ, is no one gets you, but most also say that they don't give a shit what others think of them (is this true?). The last sentance confuses me. They tell me that the hardest people to be around are other INTJ's because of the double negative atmosphere. Are there socialized vs. non-socialized INTJ's? For example, most of the slightly younger INTJ friends treat me with extreme respect even If I step over my boundaries. The friends that are slightly over, will flat out just cuss me out and then be surprised as to why I was even offended. I love you guys because of the endless span of conversations we have and the insight you can bring to the table, but sometimes you can just be pretty damn intolerant and have trouble expressing exactly what is on your mind. Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:42:06 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c94738af-f0e2-4299-ae72-54e94fb0d775 AJ 2007-10-12T03:42:06Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#bf35b194-c771-44f3-8fd2-1271003146d7 This is difficult to articulate, but I’ll try (Wyatt can probably describe this better than I can.) With the ENFP, I don’t feel alien to another person. While this is true with other INTJs I suppose, with the ENFP I feel accepted unconditionally, understood through-and-through, and comfortable. I can’t say the latter about being with other INTJs. There’s too much familiarity with another INTJ for me to be comfortable in all realms. I like the ENFPs’ enthusiasm, passion, and spontaneity. It’s infectious. It makes me comfortable and gets me to take chances and be more outgoing. Other types can be enthusiastic – ESFP, I suppose – but ENFPs are enthusiastic and passionate about things that matter to me. I never connect with anyone like I do with an ENFP. The ENFP’s passion, enthusiasm, and compassion facilitates between us free-flowing conversations that can last for hours. These interactions stimulate the feeling that “with this person, anything is possible.” I could go on and on, but in short, ENFPs get me, and I can be myself with them. At bottom, this is exactly what I’m looking for in a relationship. Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:31:38 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#bf35b194-c771-44f3-8fd2-1271003146d7 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-11T23:31:38Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c5fe20bd-fa7f-47ca-9ffe-dc09745907fe Funny, here's a live example of INTJ-ENFP differences. I have many deadlines to meet (some of which have passed me by) and I'm still posting this. :) Sure, I have waxed rhapsodical about how much I admire about INTJ's, how I'm so hung-up on one, how I do pointless and ineffective backflips to gain their attention/approval/imagination. I think no other type is more interesting, challenging, or just plain frustratingly attractive. It's wonderfully terrible! But I hardly ever see INTJ's explain specifically why they appreciate ENFP's. What do you guys like us? I want to figure out how the dynamic between works . . . it's really bugging me! I want to know so I don't feel insecure that other IJ's will beat me! :) Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:01:25 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c5fe20bd-fa7f-47ca-9ffe-dc09745907fe ENFP dreamer 2007-10-11T23:01:25Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#019e9d7e-9752-408b-8a16-680d48bde766 i'll post later this week. Can't now. Have deadlines to meet. Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:25:05 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#019e9d7e-9752-408b-8a16-680d48bde766 Wyatt 2007-10-11T19:25:05Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c083ee97-da0a-47c0-8fe0-3f889ee21375 I can't speak for other INTJs, but for me, an INTJ-ENFP pairing is optimal over INTJ-other type. Could be that I'm in the minority of INTJs. As an aside what is it like for you? Is the INTJ the ideal type-mate? Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:14:40 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c083ee97-da0a-47c0-8fe0-3f889ee21375 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-11T19:14:40Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#50598283-1678-42d6-b788-152c51202969 It's interesting that no INTJ's have posted on this thread other than the thread originator. Has me wondering about a pessimistic theory that ENFP's may like INTJ's more than INTJ's like ENFP's. Thoughts? Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:17:04 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#50598283-1678-42d6-b788-152c51202969 ENFP dreamer 2007-10-11T18:17:04Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d618cf2c-258a-455b-abd3-e26d29690c3f I have mostly INTJ friends and we get along fine, maybe because I studied philosophy in undergrad and am very rational/logical when I argue. I find that INTJ's are attracted to me for reasons beyond my comprehension, but then again alot of people love to hang out with just because I can be so dang ridiculously random/funny when I am not forced to be serious. Also I am a gender socialized male ENFP that understands what image to portray to people who I am not close too and give me a serious vibe. Many of my now INTJ friends say that they totally though I was an INTJ and that just stems from the fact that I read people before I talk to them. From the other side of the spectrum, I love one thing about INTJ's and that is the fuck it mentality that my INTJ friends have in regards to authority, the feeling is mutual. One thing I don't like is the following: As a philosophy major in undergrad, I was forced to read up the ass on anything and everything, and have been taught that I don't have to be right I just have to make the other guy look like an idiot, so I usually whoop my smart but just not trained INTJ friends in logica/rational debate and they can never admit failure. They give me too much of a "Whatever I am still right attittude even if they have been proven wrong infront of everyone." I *FEEL* like many of them have a hard time expressing why they are right and I am wrong even though it probably is that way in their head... As for my love match, no way to an INTJ... I need the cuddliness that my ISFJ (have no Idea how this worked out) brings to our marriage. My favorite personality to be with and be myself is the INFJ. I can do it all the time with these people, maybe because my mom is an INFJ. I just love INFJ's lol. Tue, 09 Oct 2007 05:29:05 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#d618cf2c-258a-455b-abd3-e26d29690c3f AJ 2007-10-09T05:29:05Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c85c5e58-6948-43df-b23c-1d42940b43a0 So reading the posts on tribe and other message boards regarding the INTJ-ENFP chemistry got me thinking: not all INTJs (or ENFPs) prefer to go for this supposedly ideal relationship. If, given the chance to pick one's mate based on type, some INTJs choose a different type - another INTJ, an INFJ, INTP, etc. They "opt out," in a sense. The other types chosen are typically other INs, other NT's. This seems to revolve around wanting a relationship that emphasizes the intellectual connection than the emotional. Reasons typically given for opting out are that ENFPs (with all due respect) are "flighty," "too emotional," "unpredictable," "not grounded," etc. Lest anyone think I am putting down the ENFP, these are some of the characterstics I adore in the ENFP (although I wouldn't characterize an ENFP as *too* emotional - I'd say I wasn't emotional *enough*. By I digress.) Other INTJs that opt in, as it were, and would choose an ENFP seem to do so because they aspire to have a more passionate relationship, at least outwardly so. More spontaneous, carefree, etc. They believe in the complementarity of functions that results in an INTJ-ENFP pairing. I'm really curious as to what accounts for this difference within the INTJ ranks. Does it correllate with T-heavy INTJs versus N-heavy INTJs? Can we identify gradations and sub-types within INTJs? PS I'm sorry for offending anyone -- INTJ, ENFP, or otherwise -- with any steretypical remark or overgeneralizations. There is a lot of room to quibble over the above remarks, but my question still stands, and that's what I want to explore. Sun, 07 Oct 2007 17:27:45 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/99a3cb80-270b-4e2b-bbaa-f2d70ddaad8e#c85c5e58-6948-43df-b23c-1d42940b43a0 $item.owner.firstName 2007-10-07T17:27:45Z