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So reading the posts on tribe and other message boards regarding the INTJ-ENFP chemistry got me thinking: not all INTJs (or ENFPs) prefer to go for this supposedly ideal relationship. If, given the chance to pick one's mate based on type, some INTJs choose a different type - another INTJ, an INFJ, INTP, etc. They "opt out," in a sense. The other types chosen are typically other INs, other NT's. This seems to revolve around wanting a relationship that emphasizes the intellectual connection than the emotional. Reasons typically given for opting out are that ENFPs (with all due respect) are "flighty," "too emotional," "unpredictable," "not grounded," etc. Lest anyone think I am putting down the ENFP, these are some of the characterstics I adore in the ENFP (although I wouldn't characterize an ENFP as *too* emotional - I'd say I wasn't emotional *enough*. By I digress.)
Other INTJs that opt in, as it were, and would choose an ENFP seem to do so because they aspire to have a more passionate relationship, at least outwardly so. More spontaneous, carefree, etc. They believe in the complementarity of functions that results in an INTJ-ENFP pairing.
I'm really curious as to what accounts for this difference within the INTJ ranks. Does it correllate with T-heavy INTJs versus N-heavy INTJs? Can we identify gradations and sub-types within INTJs?
PS I'm sorry for offending anyone -- INTJ, ENFP, or otherwise -- with any steretypical remark or overgeneralizations. There is a lot of room to quibble over the above remarks, but my question still stands, and that's what I want to explore.
Other INTJs that opt in, as it were, and would choose an ENFP seem to do so because they aspire to have a more passionate relationship, at least outwardly so. More spontaneous, carefree, etc. They believe in the complementarity of functions that results in an INTJ-ENFP pairing.
I'm really curious as to what accounts for this difference within the INTJ ranks. Does it correllate with T-heavy INTJs versus N-heavy INTJs? Can we identify gradations and sub-types within INTJs?
PS I'm sorry for offending anyone -- INTJ, ENFP, or otherwise -- with any steretypical remark or overgeneralizations. There is a lot of room to quibble over the above remarks, but my question still stands, and that's what I want to explore.
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 8, 2007 - 10:29 PMI have mostly INTJ friends and we get along fine, maybe because I studied philosophy in undergrad and am very rational/logical when I argue. I find that INTJ's are attracted to me for reasons beyond my comprehension, but then again alot of people love to hang out with just because I can be so dang ridiculously random/funny when I am not forced to be serious. Also I am a gender socialized male ENFP that understands what image to portray to people who I am not close too and give me a serious vibe. Many of my now INTJ friends say that they totally though I was an INTJ and that just stems from the fact that I read people before I talk to them.
From the other side of the spectrum, I love one thing about INTJ's and that is the fuck it mentality that my INTJ friends have in regards to authority, the feeling is mutual. One thing I don't like is the following: As a philosophy major in undergrad, I was forced to read up the ass on anything and everything, and have been taught that I don't have to be right I just have to make the other guy look like an idiot, so I usually whoop my smart but just not trained INTJ friends in logica/rational debate and they can never admit failure. They give me too much of a "Whatever I am still right attittude even if they have been proven wrong infront of everyone." I *FEEL* like many of them have a hard time expressing why they are right and I am wrong even though it probably is that way in their head...
As for my love match, no way to an INTJ... I need the cuddliness that my ISFJ (have no Idea how this worked out) brings to our marriage.
My favorite personality to be with and be myself is the INFJ. I can do it all the time with these people, maybe because my mom is an INFJ.
I just love INFJ's lol. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 11:17 AMIt's interesting that no INTJ's have posted on this thread other than the thread originator. Has me wondering about a pessimistic theory that ENFP's may like INTJ's more than INTJ's like ENFP's.
Thoughts? -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 12:14 PMI can't speak for other INTJs, but for me, an INTJ-ENFP pairing is optimal over INTJ-other type. Could be that I'm in the minority of INTJs. As an aside what is it like for you? Is the INTJ the ideal type-mate?
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 12:25 PMi'll post later this week. Can't now. Have deadlines to meet. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 4:01 PMFunny, here's a live example of INTJ-ENFP differences.
I have many deadlines to meet (some of which have passed me by) and I'm still posting this. :)
Sure, I have waxed rhapsodical about how much I admire about INTJ's, how I'm so hung-up on one, how I do pointless and ineffective backflips to gain their attention/approval/imagination. I think no other type is more interesting, challenging, or just plain frustratingly attractive. It's wonderfully terrible!
But I hardly ever see INTJ's explain specifically why they appreciate ENFP's. What do you guys like us? I want to figure out how the dynamic between works . . . it's really bugging me! I want to know so I don't feel insecure that other IJ's will beat me! :) -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 4:31 PMThis is difficult to articulate, but I’ll try (Wyatt can probably describe this better than I can.) With the ENFP, I don’t feel alien to another person. While this is true with other INTJs I suppose, with the ENFP I feel accepted unconditionally, understood through-and-through, and comfortable. I can’t say the latter about being with other INTJs. There’s too much familiarity with another INTJ for me to be comfortable in all realms.
I like the ENFPs’ enthusiasm, passion, and spontaneity. It’s infectious. It makes me comfortable and gets me to take chances and be more outgoing. Other types can be enthusiastic – ESFP, I suppose – but ENFPs are enthusiastic and passionate about things that matter to me.
I never connect with anyone like I do with an ENFP. The ENFP’s passion, enthusiasm, and compassion facilitates between us free-flowing conversations that can last for hours. These interactions stimulate the feeling that “with this person, anything is possible.”
I could go on and on, but in short, ENFPs get me, and I can be myself with them. At bottom, this is exactly what I’m looking for in a relationship. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 8:42 PMMy friends tell me that the hardest part of being an INTJ, is no one gets you, but most also say that they don't give a shit what others think of them (is this true?). The last sentance confuses me.
They tell me that the hardest people to be around are other INTJ's because of the double negative atmosphere. Are there socialized vs. non-socialized INTJ's? For example, most of the slightly younger INTJ friends treat me with extreme respect even If I step over my boundaries. The friends that are slightly over, will flat out just cuss me out and then be surprised as to why I was even offended. I love you guys because of the endless span of conversations we have and the insight you can bring to the table, but sometimes you can just be pretty damn intolerant and have trouble expressing exactly what is on your mind. -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 8:54 PM>My friends tell me that the hardest part of being an INTJ, is no one gets you, but most also say that they don't give a shit what others think of them (is this true?). The last sentance confuses me.
r21L: On the one hand, we want people to understand us. On the other hand, we can be pretty mercurial and guarded. Moreover, because we don't care what others think of us, there isn't a strong impetus to make ourselves emotionally available. Hence, no one gets us. It's kind of a feedback loop. That's why I like ENFPs. They can "break the cycle" and get through to us despite our emotional smoke-and-mirrors.
>Are there socialized vs. non-socialized INTJ's? . . . sometimes you can just be pretty damn intolerant and have trouble expressing exactly what is on your mind.
r21L: I think the ones that are socialized try to be more tolerant. Failing that, they refrain from being hostile and snapping at others or putting them in their place. They won't, however, give any indication that their tolerance is reaching its limits. The non-socialized INTJ's... well you already know about them. Not pretty.
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, March 31, 2009 - 1:16 PMI am one of the socialized INTJ's, and I must say you hit the target on that sentence about our behaviors. People seem to often wonder why I've snapped because I guess they don't see that I've reached my limit. While I honestly wouldn't mind being a hermit, I do realize the importance of living within a society (as I do not like farming for my food), so I try my best to "get along", but I still have trouble "signing" people that I'm "nearing my limit". -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, March 31, 2009 - 2:34 PMI confess: I don't know what a "socialized" INTJ is exactly. Sometimes that means the person is a mis-typed Catalyst, often ENFP or INFJ.
I compare INFJs and INTJs (a common error) on my website at
www.INFJ.com/INFJorINTJ.htm
includes audio and also video of me and my INTJ husband
-Vicky Jo :-)
Type Practitioner & life coach -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, March 31, 2009 - 4:12 PM>> I confess: I don't know what a "socialized" INTJ is exactly. <<
I think R21L and Jin may be drawing a distinction between INTJ's who have developed out over a broad range of their functions and rely on them in a more distrubuted fashion when circuitstances warrent appropriate use of them versus those who overuse their introverted iNtuition and extraverted Thinking at the expense of further developing or using their introverted Feeling and extraverted Sensing. It can become a really negative place to be, both for the INTJ and those who have to suffer being around us. Could you shed more light on that aspect of it...?
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 10:09 AMOf course it's irrelevant what others think of me. Why should I care?
Those people whohave difficulties being around INTJs are ignoble masses.
Socialisation is demonic corruption, as society is evil.
Tolerance is absurd, and those who lack an a-priori understanding of what is on my mind are not worth of it.
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Fri, October 12, 2007 - 8:33 AM> explain specifically why they appreciate ENFP's
For me, it's fun. ENFPs tend to have lots of interesting friends, can organize a social calendar, and they throw great parties. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Fri, October 12, 2007 - 12:04 PMr21L, your response was so sweet and encouraging. I always feel like encouragement from an INTJ is worth a million dollars b/c it's judiciously given and very substantive. I can honestly say I personally felt my spirits buoyed and like a million bucks myself after reading it.
Maybe all hope is not lost . . . :) I talked to Mr. INTJ crush the other day and he sounded so chatty, so upbeat, so . . . glad I called. If only I could figure you guys out, ah, but there's the rub. I like you because I can't.
I LOVE the way INTJ's think. It's so exciting. I can't really explain it. It's startling, intriguing, and seldom simple. But I get it, can follow it, respect it. And then I do seem to circumvent certain defenses, not intentionally. I think I have a good gut for the INTJ, nothing I can explain or describe well, just a knowing, which is very intuitive, not at all deduced or reasoned through, just felt and experienced. With my INTJ friends, they will describe situations or experiences in great detail, and before long, I get a sense of how they are feeling about it. I'll say: "You're feeling lonely." or "You have a hard time respecting your boss because they don't work as hard or as well as you do." Just examples, but they almost always say it's dead on. As if it puts words onto feelings they have, but just don't realize they have or have a hard time nailing down. And usually they seem relieved afterwards, to be able to name a feeling and own it. :) I guess I feel the same way when they listen to process life out loud and then summarize it in one pithy sentence. :)
Do others experience this or anything like it? I am so curious . . . -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Fri, October 12, 2007 - 12:26 PMalso, I wonder if there is a built in push-pull to the ENFP-INTJ dynamic. I keep thinking that I experience that, particularly from the INTJ end. I wonder what that's about . . . -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Fri, October 12, 2007 - 2:45 PMI don't know, I just get so annoyyed from some of their stubberness, so I fire back and know exactly how to piss them off. I will say something they don't believe and then just stick by it and keep going on and on about it until they just flip out and start screaming. The only reason I ever do this is if I *feel* they are trying to annoy me just out of spite. I guess our relationship is a push push and then when we don't see each other for a while we both start freaking out. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Fri, October 12, 2007 - 10:42 PMr21 l you said
<With the ENFP, I don’t feel alien to another person. . . . I feel accepted unconditionally, understood through-and-through, and comfortable. . . .ENFPs are enthusiastic and passionate about things that matter to me. . . .I never connect with anyone like I do with an ENFP. . .conversations that can last for hours . . .stimulate the feeling that “with this person, anything is possible.” . . . I could go on and on . . .>
Seriously please go on and on. I have to understand more from your perspective. You cannot be too rambly on this subject!
If I'm going to keep climbing Mt. Everest, err, I mean, Mt. INTJ, I need some encouragement and information for the journey. Not to mention some of that chocolate, peanut, and raisin *trail mix* for along the way . . . :) -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 2:45 AMYeah, it would be nice to hear some of the good stuff also. Go on R21.
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 11:19 AMWell since you've asked...
This post might be kind of rambly and stream-of-consciousness-ish. But given the audience, I don't think that's going to be a problem ; )
So a basic interaction that I might have witha girl who I am interested in takes place like so: We're communicating, I say something, she responds, she says something, I respond, etc. But the whole time there's like a million calculations going on: do I make sense? Is she confused? Am I boring her? Do I sound excited enough about this topic? If I try to sound more passionate about it, will that seem fake? Do I look stoic and bored? Should I smile? Does *that* seem fake? Is she happy to be here? Bored? Am I talking too much? Too little? Is the conversation going smoothly? Akward? Am I talking too much about myself? Are we talking too much about her such that it seems that I've got something to hide? Am I sustaining enough eye contact? Too much? What does my body language say? Am I closed off? Turned toward her? Is it too obvious? Should I be more discrete while still indicating interest? Am I overthinking things? If I were to try to act naturally, would that cause me to seem artificial? Would the fear of seeming artificial make me seem too wooden and stiff? And on and on and on.
All this is going on more or less at once and continuously in the background while the conversation is going on. And that's just my analysis of how I come across, which doesn't even include my interpretation of her body language, tone of voice, etc. I don't know if the above example is common to INTJs or intuitives or whatever. I'm much more N-heavy than T-heavy. About 88% N and only ~50% T. When I was younger, I read a family member's book about Body Language one summer (the family member is a psychologist) , and for about 2 months I couldn't have a normal interaction with anyone, because my mind would be awash with analysis of their body language and my own. Things normalized after that summer, but now that type of analysis is relegated to the background, where it's always turned "on."
The point of that example is that, with ENFPs, it's like there's two conversations going on. One takes place in "normal space" - via oral communication. But the other conversation takes place in "meta space," or whatever you want to call it. All of the mental questions that I pose to myself seem to be answered by her solely via body language and tone of voice. It's like a dance, where both of us lead and follow at the same time. This secondary conversation, the fact that it's taking place and there's a dialogue going on (as opposed to a soliloquy lol) is quite exciting and electric; this excitment enlivens the oral conversation, and I find myself more comfortable, which in turn makes the conversation(s) all the more exciting and spontaneous.
I think it takes another intuitive to tune into that second conversation. And it takes an intuitive who has keen interpersonal abilities to do something about it - to put the other person at ease. I find xNFPs to have this ability, more so than J's or T's. But as between and INFP and and ENFP, I think there's more compatibility with an ENFP. I've dated an INFP, and as wonderful as that was, there's was an absence of passion that I think was due to our different communication styles (which is explained by Wyatt excellent post below regarding processes).
I don't know what more I can say... if you've got some specific things you want to know, I'll be happy to try to answer! -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 12:06 PMhey r21l
I have a great very recent example that may answer some of your question related to ENFP's and feelings (Fi and such). This is great, because it will give me a place to brain dump and process a little.
Last night met up with Mr. INTJ at a rock concert. Great music. Stood on his left. He stood slightly in front of me, which sent me into the internal thinking tailspin. What does that mean? Why is he not standing behind me, letting me see better, standing in I'll protect you and save you if you fall backwards position? Is this a sign via body language that I am not of significance to him?
To make matters worse is drunk blonde on the right who decided to start throwing herself on him at the end of the show during the encore. She's leaning on him, into him, whispering stuff in his ear while the loud music is playing. I mean, I was leaving him alone during the songs to enjoy one of his favorite bands, but she doesn't know that about him or care about things like that.
So here's what happens inside this ENFP at that point:
JEALOUSLY!!!!!!
broken down into layers of anger, fear and hurt.
Cue the twisting stomach, blinding emotion.
Like the emotional tacometer had just hit the red zone and I'm about to blow the engine. Then comes guilt. Jealousy is wrong.
*values* Fi kicking in here.
He's a free man. You don't believe in possessing people or being possessed.
Then self-defeat, you'll never be able to compete with a pretty blonde.
You're only going to lose this fight.
Sadness.
And then comes the overwhelming flight instinct. Get out of here!!!!
Run!!!! Save yourself!!!!!
*Te to the rescue* helping to make the exit plan
Tell him I'm going to leave.
Then he pays me attention, ignores blonde, looks concerned.
then I say, well, maybe i'll stay for one more song.
Then blonde comes over, after seeing us leaning in and talking.
She says, with drunked slurred words, "I'm sorry." looking at me, as if she's talking to the g/f.
then she looks at us both together, takes her two hands and draws a heart in the air around us and says: "You two are in love!"
now I know she's blonde and drunk (and I am neither), but what just happened? :)
keep in mind, last time we hung out, a homeless man seranaded us and sang a song to me, telling Mr. INTJ --"This one's for your lady."
Is God stepping in and saying something to Mr. INTJ when I"m too chicken to do it?
Okay, so here's the deal. I feel *****so much**** inside toward him, but work overtime to have Te keep it in check so I don't look retarded. If I"m away from him, think about him for 2 seconds, I am flooded with feelings. The first time I see him when we hang out, I can't breathe right and have to struggle to think at all. There is a great deal of feeling inside.
But there is a war inside. Because I can't get a read at all on his feelings. So my Fi, I suppose, strongly value that sense of being loved and loving in return, more than just about anything else in the world. And I can't tell if I am loved at this point, so my feelings just swirl around inside. So Te starts analyzing the feelings, through the value grid from Fi, so they can be subjugated, or at least categorized, so put them into some kind of boxes, hoping this will help me function better around him.
Actually expressing them to him verbally is extremely difficult, because he has not initiated that type of talk, and in my Fi value system emotional safety is so important, so doing so seems very risky.
You are right, then -- enter layer 2 of conversation -- subtext, if you will. The land of eye contact, body language, innuendo, what is not said. This is the only place the feelings have to go. Maybe I start glowing around him -- I can feel something burning in my eyes when I look at his -- and that's why people are saying things to us about love. I see light in his eyes, but I don't know if I light them up or if they are always that way. How can I know? I only see them when I look at them. Do INTJ's show love through their eyes, the looks you give? I have noticed that . . .
There are always 2 conversations going on and I keep wanting to touch him. Just be near him. And what unlocks an expression of feeling is when he demonstrates or verbalizes understanding me and loyalty to me. The Fi assesses safety and acceptance, a green light for some squeaking out of expression of feeling. What would really unlock the expression is him expressing some of it first, difficult for the INTJ, fueling the sexual tension and subtext further. But make no mistake, the ENFP is full of feeling, it's just sometimes locked in a deep well inside and all that is displayed are the values . . .
Is this helpful? Does this make sense? Have you guys experienced anything like it? If so, what is it like on your end? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 12:40 PMOh, and just so you know, all the inner monologue you described about How am I standing? Am I saying too much or too little? etc. etc. is going on in our heads, too.
It's amazing to learn we're thinking such similar things! I had no idea! :) Nothing like shared neuroses! :)
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 1:16 PMThe parallels are uncanny. You asked if INTJs express love/affection through their eyes. Totally. You also were wondering if Mr. INTJ is like that all the time or just with you. And of course, you could never see what his eyes say unless you're there. This is exactly what I wonder with regards to ENFPs, except in the context of expressing enthusiasm in general rather than just through the eyes. I often ask if she is like that because of me or like that all the time. Your description of jealousy->guilt->inferiority->avoidance is also very familiar.
The metaphor of ships passing through the night seems apt here. if the feelings are mutual, it would be a shame if no one made the first move. Do you suppose you could casually make light of what the drunk blond said? (That she's drunk does not mean she's any less intuitive. Just less inhibited in intruding into other people's business!!) Maybe make a joke, or say, "boy, that blone girl from the concert was really crazy... that's funny what she said about us... what do you think about that?" -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 1:44 PMYes, we ENFP's are enthusiastic. But like I've been telling Wyatt, we have different relational circles in our lives. Inner circle closest, dearest, favorite people. 2nd tier close friends. 3rd tier friends. 4th tier good acquaintances. 5th tier acquaintances.
I think we light up truly for those who are in the inner circle or candidates for it. We have *favorite people.* AJ, help me out here. Do you agree?
Just because we have many friends doesn't mean we value them equally. Quite the contrary. You would want to ascertain if you are inner circle. Because when you are, you won't just connect over shared passions (topics that get us to light up), but she'll travel with you into what you like, even if she doesn't initially have a passion for it. If she is enthusiastic with you consistently across a number of situations and coversation topics, and it is sustained enthusiasm, then you just might be an object of desire/interest. Because if it's just our general enthusiasm, it would be topical, situational, and would flame out when the novelty wears off.
I wonder what similarly subtle signals an INTJ would send off that might give clues into his inner feelings (if they exist). I notice that he seems really upbeat when i call him now, almost sounds really happy to talk (it wasn't always this way). And we talk in a more familiar way (when I call him now I just say, Hey, what are you doing? instead of old days when I'd say Hey Mr. INTJ, it's me MS. ENFP calling for x reason, etc.). And if he has to do something, he doesn't use it as a way to get off the phone, he says he'll do whatever and call me back. So that seems positive. If only he'd call first . . . :) -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 2:07 PMbaby steps... i think you entered his "inner circle," or a closer one. We actually have this type of system. Lol, I was thinking about it the other day, trying to come up with the perfect metaphor. What I have thus far is an atom. In the center of the nucleus are the proton and neutron. One is me, the other is my crush/significant other). Then, the next closest friends are in the first-order (sharp) orbital. The next-closest set of friends in the second-order (principle) orbital, etc. etc.
It's a very good sign that he drops whatever he does to talk to you. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 2:23 PMyour metaphor is great. I concur. what i'm learning is that I have to trust my intuition. Something is going on. It doesn't matter what my friends say (so many are negative) or his friends (most think he just sees me as a friend -- I have not said I liked him to any of them). So many *outsiders* don't get it. They are all about convention and their observations are so full of projection of their own values, opinions and fears. I have to focus on what I intuitively know is going on. Because he is an INTJ, it is a private experience, and it's not a microwave method. It's funny to think the 2nd conversation is the real one -- the subtext. That means a lot of great fun is in store! and it's inherently fluctuating and unpredictable. I envisioned last night at the concert an arc of electricity sparking between my heart and his. But maybe I am just losing in this process!
Boy, we must seem really strange to other types! But who cares, we get to have our own wierd little world! :) Who would have thought it could be like this! -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 2:36 PM"Boy, we must seem really strange to other types! But who cares, we get to have our own wierd little world! :) Who would have thought it could be like this!"
I think you just made the case for the INTJ-ENFP pairing... if nothing else, who would understand us?
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sun, October 14, 2007 - 5:19 PMOMG it must be an ENFP thing because that is exactly how i feel about the INTJ whenever i get around him!!!! wow your P must be really good.
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 11:39 AM>> Last night met up with Mr. INTJ at a rock concert. Great music. Stood on his left. He stood slightly in front of me, which sent me into the internal thinking tailspin.
FWIW (intj, 40+ and married 16 years)... I don't honestly believe it would have entered my mind when dating to predicate the depth of a relationship on where I was standing. I'm _barely_ smart enough today to look for a ring to determine if someone is single or married.
Food for thought... thinking back on dating, I might put hypothesize that I wasn't jealous so much as concerned that someone was interfering with my carefully conceived plan to find a wife. Internal difference being whether the reaction was seated more in emotion or reason. External difference?? probably none...
Took a while to understand that others have this mostly irrational thing called "jealousy".
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 9:42 AMFrom AJ:
<<I don't know, I just get so annoyyed from some of their stubberness, so I fire back and know exactly how to piss them off. I will say something they don't believe and then just stick by it and keep going on and on about it until they just flip out and start screaming. The only reason I ever do this is if I *feel* they are trying to annoy me just out of spite. I guess our relationship is a push push and then when we don't see each other for a while we both start freaking out. >>
And doesn't it piss you off when they just sit there coolly, listen to everything you say, then continue on with the orignal plan of action/idea/whatever, as if they have summarily dismissed what you have just said?
The best way to get an INTJ to change a course of action is to appeal to the logic/efficiency of their action. But, don't do it in a mean way that undermines them. Be nice. That being said, in a relationship, a little heat every now and then may go a long way to keeping things from blowing up later on. Just be careful, and make sure you two make up. I know I will put up with ALOT of stuff before I end a relationship. But once that decision has been made, it will end. I am very tolerant of my loved ones. I understand their point of view. The part that I don't understand, i toloerate and love that part of them. The little things in a relationship go a long long way in sustaining it. The little things you do every single day for that person that no one else can or will do.
I don't know that I have EVER done anything just to annoy someone. It is a process with me: Plan, Execute, Evaluate result, Repeat. Once the plan is in place, and execution mode is in order, it is hard to change it on the fly. This is something that INTP's do rather well. Once I am in execution mode, I would rather live with the inefficiency in the plan (as long as it is minor) and make a note of it, and correct it in the plan the next time. I will go to great lengths to correct an error during execution phase, though, because I know the consequences of it later down the road are great.
But your logic better be well thought out. If it isn't your INTJ partner may just summarily dismiss it. That being said, she will really really love you for your feeling and intuitiveness. All that she is not.
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 9:25 AMFrom ENFP dreamer:
<<But I hardly ever see INTJ's explain specifically why they appreciate ENFP's. What do you guys like us? I want to figure out how the dynamic between works . . . it's really bugging me! I want to know so I don't feel insecure that other IJ's will beat me! :) >>
I can say for myself, so far I can break ENFP's down into two types that I have experienced that appear extremely attractive to me, at least early in the romantic process. One is the type is very heavy on the F. These types seem able to evoke emotion out of me just by watching them and listening to them. They are able to draw my feelings out of me verbally that I would be oblivioius to otherwise. It is like they make me say and do things spontaneously that I would not say or do with anyone else. It is as if they are a conduit for me to let surface those subconcious feelings that I would otherwise not consider.
Also, being heavy on the N is important, too. This is the other type. I am heavy on the N, and I find that the more one likes to use this, the more attractive that person is for me.
I like the part of the P that is spontaneous, but not the part that spontanesously cuts me out of the picture. I like to be included. I am always afraid of being traded for something better.
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 9:11 AMFrom ENFP dreamer...
<<It's interesting that no INTJ's have posted on this thread other than the thread originator. Has me wondering about a pessimistic theory that ENFP's may like INTJ's more than INTJ's like ENFP's.>>
OR, maybe a bunch of INTJ's are out there internally processing for awhile before the post.. ;oP
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 8:05 AMHey, this might be beneficial before we get too far into this.
Let's look at the processes of each and define what they are:
Process___________ENFP____________INTJ
------------__________---------___________--------
1_________________Ne______________Ni
2_________________Fi_______________Te
3_________________Te_______________Fi
4_________________Si_______________Se
5_________________Ni_______________Ne
Ni - introverted iNtuiting
Foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data; realizing “what will be”; conceptualizing new ways of seeing things; envisioning transformations; getting an image of profound meaning or far-reaching symbols.
Ne - extraverted iNtuiting
Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts.
Te - extraverted Thinking
Ordering; organizing for efficiency; systematizing; applying logic; structuring; checking for consequences; monitoring for standards or specifications being met; setting boundaries, guidelines, and parameters; deciding if something is working or not.
Fi - introverted Feeling
Valuing; considering importance and worth; reviewing for incongruity; evaluating something based on the truths on which it is based; clarifying values to achieve accord; deciding if something is of significance and worth standing up for.
Se - extraverted Sensing
Experiencing the immediate context; noticing changes and opportunities for action; being drawn to act on the physical world; accumulating experiences; scanning for visible reactions and relevant data; recognizing “what is”.
Si - introverted Sensing
Reviewing past experiences; “what is” evoking “what was”; seeking detailed information and links to what is known; recalling stored impressions; accumulating data; recognizing the way things have always been.
So, let's first look at communication using the first function of each (and maybe with a little help from the supporting fuctions).
Ne <--> Ni
What does it look like? Well, it is the preferred method of each person, each expending a minimum amount of energy to use it as it is the most developed and preferred method of relating to our environment.
ENFP (Ne; also she is talking out loud to think): "I wonder if ..."
INTJ (Ni; listening, internally processing his thoughts, perhaps using a little Te to rank and organize and then reflecting): "Yes, it could be this or that.. but it probably means <whatever> because <whatever>..."
ENFP (Ne; listening, internally processing using a little Fi to check the importance of the situation, check against her values): "Hmm.. you didn't say <whatever>. Ok, so if we do <whatever else> instead of <whatever else else> then we can be <whatever else else else>, and all is happy in la la land"
INTJ (Ni): ....
ENFP (Ne): ....
You get the picture. So, this is my take. The first processes alone automatically create a naturally easy feedback loop between the two. The first processes are ALSO the fifth process of the other (shadow function), which when experienced in a postive light will appear very exotic, mysterious, or attractive. I think the strength of this feedback will depend on the strength of the of the Ne or Ni each possess. Theoretical practitioners of MBTI/Keirsey temperament will argue against being able to measure strength of preference, but let's assume that it is there, even if we cannot measure it. Also, notice that the second and third functions of both of these types are the same, only inverted so that one has a little stronger preference/development of it than the other, although both can weild these processes when they need to. This is really important, I believe, in providing that "more than superficial" relationship. Both are tuned into how the other is processing with their supporting functions. -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 10:45 AMThis post was great. Very informative. I've always wondered how the processes work together between different types, but I was always stymied by one thing or another. I find MBTI to be like an onion, and each year I'm peeling more and more layers... One of my friends is just now getting into, but I can't really talk to her about things like the post above because of the complexity involved. Maybe in 6 months or so.
I noticed that ENFP's don't possess the Fe function high up. That's interesting. (As an aside, when people talk about F, there's two kinds: Fi, which corresponds more with values, and Fe, which corresponds more with emotions. So when people say INTJs have a hard time expressing emotions and their Feeling side is downplayed... to an exten this is true, only insofar as such statement pertains to Fe. Seeing as we have Fi as our tertiary function, and I for one make value judgments all the time, I wouldn't say my Feeling side is downplayed with regards to Fi). But anyway, the one thing I was to zero in on is this: do ENFPs have a hard time expressing emotions? I know this sounds strange, given the way ENFPs are -- outgoing, enthusiastic, passionate -- but those traits could be centered around external ideas and interests, not internal emotions.
Would our resident ENFPs be able to offer some insight?
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 12:06 PMI'd feel better if that got cited properly. www.BestFitType.com , right? (If it was your creation, you'd want the credit yourself, I'm sure. And on that note, one of the creators does have INTJ prefs.)
Also want to say that this is a deconstruction for the sake of analysis only. Remember, a person is a whole system, not a combination of "parts." INTJs are not exactly alike. It's always helpful to keep that in mind -- not to overlook other influences, such as age, experience, environment.
Don't leave out the possibility of mis-typing while you're at it. Keirsey suggests every other person may be mis-typed, so always take the code with a grain of salt.
(And no, you cannot measure "strength" of a preference. It's a nonsensical question when you bear down on it. ;-D) -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 3:47 PM<<I'd feel better if that got cited properly. www.BestFitType.com , right? (If it was your creation, you'd want the credit yourself, I'm sure. And on that note, one of the creators does have INTJ prefs.) >>
Thank you, Vicky Jo. I am not trying to take credit for anyone's work, but I truthfully didn't know where it came from anymore. I have it emptied into an excel file that I work out of becasue I have found it useful. I assumed that the information was "common Knowledge" among people familiar with Type processes. But, it looks like we have that fixed now. I will record the cite in my excel sheet so they stay together.
Thanks for weighing in with your post. Always nice to hear your thoughts. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 7:36 PMokay, well, even though we figured out that we end up in our own wierd little world, let's keep discussing. it's too important . . . and it's too much fun!
Do you agree with Wyatt that INTJ's can be oblivious to someone right there and then feel *blindsided* by love? That is so hard for an ENFP to understand! How does that work? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 7:43 PMokay, r21l, you wrote:
<<Your description of jealousy->guilt->inferiority->avoidance is also very familiar. >>
INTJ's get jealous? I thought you were impervious to that . . . (I'm actually being serious here) -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sun, October 14, 2007 - 1:12 AMWell, the jealousy is very brief and slight. "What *is* that feeling?" Then comes the "oh, get over yourself. Jealousy is so BANAL, so HUMAN..." so perhaps even the guilt is subdued. But everything else is pretty much there.
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sun, October 14, 2007 - 1:42 PMENFP dreamer: I get HIGHLY jealous over girls that i really, really like early in a relationship. I can be MADE to be jealous when someone I like a lot presses the right buttons. AND it can be very hurtful. But here's the thing: I don't show it. Ever. It will eat me up inside. It will depress me. But I will not show it. It would be very, very embarrassing for me to show that I am jealous. In fact, only recently have i come to terms with myself in this area, when I began considering what a polyamorous relationship is really like, and that some ENFP's claim that they seem to be meant for that lifestyle.
I must admit, this lifestyle is not one that would be my first choice, but going through the mental excercise of imagining myself in one really opened my mind to what it would take emotionally, and to do that, i had to "rewire" and "redefine" some of my conceptions of loving someone completely. I had to shift my paradigm on some things briefly. I think allowing your partner to sleep with someone else with your consent, and NOT be hurt over it (and in fact be happy with it) involves a very selfless kind of love for someone. I must admit that I struggle with this concept, but I think I understand it to a (very) small degree. I am not even at all certain that these types of relationships are at all stable. Mathematically, bodies of three or more imply chaos (the statement originally referred to celestal bodies locked in one anothers orbits-- but it applies to ANY mathematical system-- and people relations can be modelled by very complex nonlinear systems-- as opposed to John's argument that people are like computer programs-- or maybe it was a metaphor... I am not making a metaphor. I am serious).
After I have been in a relationship for a long time, and I feel secure in it, jealously is non-existant. Unless she is doing things to create mis-trust. Then i can get jealous again. It is highly dependant to me on how I read the trustworthiness of my partner, and the degree to which my heart is tied into her.
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sun, October 14, 2007 - 1:09 AMI'll give you an example... I was at a party today, talking mostly to a female co-worker. She's with someone else and my interest in her is strictly friendly. At some point, when the conversation slowed, she turned to talk to a friend of hers. They were whispering and looking in my direction but I just looked at my cellphone mostly. Then my friend comes up to me and starts talking about her friend. I say, "that's nice," etc., making small talk about her. But, apparently my friend was trying to gauge my interest in her friend. By all accounts I should have known what was happening. It was only later, when I had left the party, that I realized what was happening.
This probably doesn't fall under the "blindsided by love category," but it's one example of us INTJs being oblivious to others' interest in us.
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sun, October 14, 2007 - 1:24 PM<<Also want to say that this is a deconstruction for the sake of analysis only.>>
Please elaborate here. Deconstruction for the sake of analysis only... as opposed to what else? What else can we do?
<< Remember, a person is a whole system, not a combination of "parts." INTJs are not exactly alike. It's always helpful to keep that in mind -- not to overlook other influences, such as age, experience, environment. >>
Yeah, I think we all got a good education in the differences with some good dialog with John a little while ago. This was most interesting to me. I liked watching his responses, and others responses to him. They looked almost exactly like mine would have looked ten years ago, only he is older than me. But I understood EXACTLY where he was coming from, and going, and what he was intending to do.
<<(And no, you cannot measure "strength" of a preference. It's a nonsensical question when you bear down on it. ;-D)>>
Hey, let's bear down on it. Why is it nonsensical? First, are we both of the opinion that there "exists" a strength of preference dimension (I am), or are we only saying that it "cannot be measured"? OR are we saying there has not been a method developed "YET" to measure it? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 11:24 AMMy remarks are led by ***
<<Also want to say that this is a deconstruction for the sake of analysis only.>>
Please elaborate here. Deconstruction for the sake of analysis only... as opposed to what else? What else can we do?
*** I always bear in mind that a personality is an intact, whole *system*. Only in theory may it be deconstructed, and separated into "parts" with tiny little labels on them. Real-live people are not formulas or algorithms.
*** Thus, an INTJ is NOT composed of I + N + T + P..... NOR are they comprised of Ni + Te + Fi + Se, etc. (You hear this kind of nonsense showing up in type language sometimes. The flaw becomes particularly apparent when someone claims to be something like INTJ/P -- which is nonsensical once you understand the theory.
*** So I'm merely pitching the reminder out that these things can't be separated into tidy little component parts like INTJs are so fond of. People are not "things" -- and they can never be entirely separated from the context of the *whole*. RIght?
<< Remember, a person is a whole system, not a combination of "parts." INTJs are not exactly alike. It's always helpful to keep that in mind -- not to overlook other influences, such as age, experience, environment. >>
Yeah, I think we all got a good education in the differences with some good dialog with John a little while ago. This was most interesting to me. I liked watching his responses, and others responses to him. They looked almost exactly like mine would have looked ten years ago, only he is older than me. But I understood EXACTLY where he was coming from, and going, and what he was intending to do.
*** Mmmmm, you sound rather like my INTJ husband, who makes similar comments all the time about INTJs he encounters. I surmise it's interesting to see where you've been, and imagine where you might be going. ;-)
<<(And no, you cannot measure "strength" of a preference. It's a nonsensical question when you bear down on it. ;-D)>>
Hey, let's bear down on it. Why is it nonsensical? First, are we both of the opinion that there "exists" a strength of preference dimension (I am), or are we only saying that it "cannot be measured"? OR are we saying there has not been a method developed "YET" to measure it?
*** Okay, let's bear down on it. What on earth would "strength" of a preference mean? It would either mean one is being DOMINEERING with it (which I don't think is what you are proposing); or it would mean that the person has relinquished use of the other processes in order to favor this one -- in which case, somebody who is "off-the-scale with their 'N' strength" would have to be flakier than the Pillsbury Doughboy (once again not a very flattering notion methinks). These are two ways of quantifying "strength." What else could "strength" refer to in the context of psychological type? (Bearing in mind, of course, that Jung's viewpoint of psychological type is that human beings tend to have a *problem* of being too "one-sided," and his theory was intended to help people develop the other aspects of themselves and overcome that -- so, again, celebrating "one-sidedness" is illogical within the context of Jung's theory. :-/)
*** I concede that a process may be more *developed* in its use with some individuals than others. Particularly in environments (families? cultures?) where use of a certain process is discouraged might result in less development of a preferred process than might be optimal for that individual. But even then, it's not like there is an easy yardstick to measure that. It's possible the person has adapted quite well but has found ways to disguise or compensate with another process so as to *look* like they aren't using it. (INTJs seem particularly good at masking their Ni, which is culturally less acceptable than their Te -- although some INTJs look a little one-sided with their Te because the culture has encouraged to mistrust their own best gift. :-/)
*** Contrary to your wondering above (about the eight processes being "common knowledge"), Dr. John Beebe began developing this notion of the "sequence of eight" in 1988, and is still in the process of evolving his theory. Many type enthusiasts are unfamiliar with his ideas, and with others there is resistance to his viewpoint in some parts of the type community (particularly amongst the "old guard"). Only three of the eight qualifying program providers teach his version of the theory. Most people suppose they know everything there is to know about type by using the MBTI's 4 dichotomy scales (I/E, S/N, F/T, J/P), and are loath to update their thinking with an improved framework.
*** So that's why we have confusion out there with X's and people calling themselves by two type patterns at the same time, or otherwise trying to slice and dice the code up because they don't really understand it. (The "strength" nonsense came about from people thinking the scores they get from taking the MBTI represent "strength" rather than "degree of clarity.") The whole thing starts to look like a mongrel Heinz 57 breed, or like E=MC(2) except on Tuesdays when we like it to mean something else altogether. =8-O
*** Anyway, one of the better type books now available is titled "8 Keys to Self-Leadership" by Dario Nardi (INTJ), and it describes the 8 functions in greater depth, and indicates what level of development one may have achieved for each one of them. Nardi describes the processes in depth, and provides a self-assessment in each chapter for a person to ascertain how well developed they are in using each of the processes.
*** That's as close as I'm willing to get to conceding any aspect of type could be called "strength" of a process (if it's translated to "level of development") -- and my hunch is that most people aren't nearly that sophisticated and are relying on those numbers they get from some "test" or what they hear others say.
*** Truthfully, I don't myself care all that much how "strong" or even "developed" the processes are for most people -- I'm more interested in whether or not they are matching their processes appropriately to any given task: for instance, using Feeling to solve Feeling problems, and Thinking to solve Thinking problems -- not using Thinking to solve Feeling problems or Feeling to solve Thinking problems! (INTJs may have some horror stories to share about attempting to do this unsuccessfully....?) An ability to use the right process for a given problem is a more accurate indication of individuation than measuring whatever someone might call "strength."
*** Is that drilled down enough, or can I stop now? ;-D -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 11:46 AM>> ...using Thinking to solve Feeling problems or Feeling to solve Thinking
It occurs to me that if everyone would start THINKing, then we wouldn't have to waste time with this FEELing thing... what is wrong with the rest of the world anyway?... -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 11:48 AMthat's a joke by the way... but if you were just getting ready to fire off a missive elucidating the necessity of emotion, then I conclude you have proven yourself an intj
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 12:58 PMROFLOL.
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 1:16 PMLast night I saw Mr. INTJ at a party with most of our mutual friends. I was an hour late (unusual for me) b/c I was out having coffee with a female INTJ friend processing all my woes and helping her be supoprted while she creid a little. I think I help INTJ women cry. not sure how this happens. She says she feels so accepted and I certainly wanted to be there for her. Her 2 cents were : "I don't process like you, but I get you. And you certainly get me." But I digress.
So I'm having a hard time making sense of Mr. INTJ behavior in a party/group setting. He does not seem to seek out my company. I don't even think he's shy. He talks to various people somewhat, is good at making initial small talk, and seems perkier around others. With me there's this dynamic of I go visit him at some point and we just start up talking just where we left off. No chit chat. A sign of moving to more inner circles or boredom with me/ taking me for granted/ or worse yet, a sign that I should run for the hills, because I'm in danager!?!?
Oh well, maybe it can't be analyzed any more. I just started asking questions here so I didn't make ENFP assumptions about someone with INTJ preferences. An effort to better *understand* someone who is handling things very differently from how I would. It is so hard for me to make sense of the idea that a man could like a woman and not show it somehow, anyway at all. I just want to understand, to learn. Maybe it's being shown in ways I'm missing or downplaying or maybe I'm delusional and there's nothing to see . . .
Ugh, sad unicorn . . . :( -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 1:50 PM1. No chit chat is good. Picking up a deep conversation as if there's no break is ideal. I don't ever need the warm-up, I can just turn on a switch and get back into it. But I do the warm-up for others.
2. I dislike showing anyone I like them. I'm funny like that. It has to do with being exposed, vulnerable... what's more raw than putting your feelings for someone out there for them to dismiss or reject. The whole flirting thing, courtship, the chase... it's somehow "beneath" me...but I still go through the ritual.
3. I think you've reached a breaking point when you can't analyze things anymore. Hopefully the exasperation will be more unbearable than the fear of rejection, thus causing you to do something drastic like, i dunno, ask him flat out "look - i like you. do you like me?" and say it with a hint of annoyance, put him in his place. he'll turn to mush.
Revel in your sadness and annoyance. Own it. Then turn it into action and you'll break through this rut. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 2:20 PMThanks, I needed a good, swift, INTJ kick in the butt!
Hi-ya! :)
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 3:19 PMHi r21left!!
<<1. No chit chat is good. Picking up a deep conversation as if there's no break is ideal. I don't ever need the warm-up, I can just turn on a switch and get back into it. But I do the warm-up for others. >>
We am similar, here.
<<2. I dislike showing anyone I like them. I'm funny like that. It has to do with being exposed, vulnerable... what's more raw than putting your feelings for someone out there for them to dismiss or reject. The whole flirting thing, courtship, the chase... it's somehow "beneath" me...but I still go through the ritual. >>
I used to be like that. I don't mind so much anymore. I can go either way on showing them I like them. Depends on what her game is. I usually prefer no games. But I do like playing them sometimes as long as they are not hurtful. It is entertaining. Creates anticipation.
<<3. ... ask him flat out "look - i like you. do you like me?" and say it with a hint of annoyance, put him in his place. he'll turn to mush.
Revel in your sadness and annoyance. Own it. Then turn it into action and you'll break through this rut. >>
This would actually work on me. Kinda makes my heart go pitter-patter just thinking about it.
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 3:28 PMHi r21left!!
<<1. No chit chat is good. Picking up a deep conversation as if there's no break is ideal. I don't ever need the warm-up, I can just turn on a switch and get back into it. But I do the warm-up for others. >>
We are similar here.
<<2. I dislike showing anyone I like them. I'm funny like that. It has to do with being exposed, vulnerable... what's more raw than putting your feelings for someone out there for them to dismiss or reject. The whole flirting thing, courtship, the chase... it's somehow "beneath" me...but I still go through the ritual. >>
I used to be this way when I was younger. Now I can go either way depending on what her game is. I can actually be rejected and behave gracefully while it happens. I don't prefer games usually, but they can be very fun and entertaining if they are not hurtful. Seriously, I used to hate this, but now I kind of enjoy it. A little. It helps to practice being vulnerable in a graceful way, so you know how to behave when it happens. Just go through a few thought processes of what you would say, or do in a given situatuion or two.
<<3. ...ask him flat out "look - i like you. do you like me?" and say it with a hint of annoyance, put him in his place. he'll turn to mush.
Revel in your sadness and annoyance. Own it. Then turn it into action and you'll break through this rut. >>
This would actually work on me. Makes me giddy just thinking about it. -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 3:40 PM"I used to be this way when I was younger. Now I can go either way depending on what her game is. I can actually be rejected and behave gracefully while it happens. I don't prefer games usually, but they can be very fun and entertaining if they are not hurtful. Seriously, I used to hate this, but now I kind of enjoy it. A little. It helps to practice being vulnerable in a graceful way, so you know how to behave when it happens. Just go through a few thought processes of what you would say, or do in a given situatuion or two."
Ugh. Courtship is the worst. I lose my appetite, lose the ability to concentrate at work, question myself, lose perspective on what's really happening. Such a drain of energy.... kind of fun, though. Exciting. Thrilling. But I can't do it more than once per year or so. When a new relationship begins, I'm just a wreck for the first month. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 16, 2007 - 11:31 AM<<Ugh. Courtship is the worst. I lose my appetite, lose the ability to concentrate at work, question myself, lose perspective on what's really happening. Such a drain of energy.... kind of fun, though. Exciting. Thrilling. But I can't do it more than once per year or so. When a new relationship begins, I'm just a wreck for the first month. >>
Yeah. Then there's that. It is what happens when I really, really like a particular girl.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 16, 2007 - 12:05 PM"Ugh. Courtship is the worst. I lose my appetite, lose the ability to concentrate at work, question myself, lose perspective on what's really happening. Such a drain of energy.... kind of fun, though. Exciting. Thrilling. But I can't do it more than once per year or so."
It's so funny you are so describing all the things I'm going through. I had no idea it was so bad for you guys, too. I'll try to remember this, on the off chance he's going through any of this.
I dunno, more and more I lose heart. I haven't done any of the things you proposed I do in terms of saying anything to him. I had another INTJ guy ask me out (this guy studies life coaching stuff and knew his MBTI type), but I turned him down. Nothing like having all your eggs in one basket and doing nothing about it.
The whole process is torture -- what can't we stop doing this? Is the ENFP-INTJ thing realy worth it? Is it just a fairy tale? Help -- I'm discouraged! -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Wed, October 17, 2007 - 8:01 PMtribe's back up -- any feedback on the issues we're discussing?
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Wed, October 17, 2007 - 8:09 PMKeep your chin up. There's is someone out there for you. I don't know exactly how to capture a good ENFP either. Wish I did. Heh. The one I want believes in star signs... and we are not compatible that way... and I don't even MATCH MY starsign in thinking or behavior... Good thing she doesn't know my starsign yet.... o_O
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 18, 2007 - 9:28 AMOkay, one other thought. Feel like I'm talking to myself -- hope this does not sound like monopolizing the "conversation" here but think this idea may be important to consider.
I notice that as an ENFP, I need so often to *slow down* -- i.e. less dinners out with friends, meetings to attend, outings, ovebooking my self with projects and social apts. Last night I threw out a blanket under a tree at sunset and just read from a book. It was so lovely and I thought : "Why don't I do this more often? I need this."
Well, part of the reason is that Mr. INTJ is in a phase where he needs alone time to process and think about a decision. It's related to going on a trip together with another person. This will happen with an INTJ. The need to be alone and process. During these times, I make myself scarce.
So here's the upshot. The INTJ needs space to live, breathe, function. We ENFP's need it, too, though we may fight it tooth and nail sometimes. What works is that when INTJ needs space, I can connect with vairous dear friends in my friend networks, and then i can also find the time to have the downtime I really need. And hopefully
With extraverted ex's in my past, I never really slowed down much. Life got even more hectic and went even faster. Now I feel like I can catch my breath a little , too, and I really enjoy that.
Thoughts? Reactions?
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Wed, October 17, 2007 - 7:39 PMyou know Vicky Jo, I'll confess to being annoyed by the tone of this post as being pushy and judgmental. this reaction caused me to visit your infj or infp site. now i'm starting to see your point of view, and my understanding of type is increasing exponentially these days. so thanks!
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 11:12 AMHi Vicky Jo!!!
<<I always bear in mind that a personality is an intact, whole *system*. Only in theory may it be deconstructed, and separated into "parts" with tiny little labels on them. Real-live people are not formulas or algorithms.>>
Trust me. I am VERY estute in looking at EVERYTHING from a systems perspective. Linear and nonlinear, time varient and time invarient. Are you familiar with the concept of state-variables? This is a way of tracking memory elements of a system for analysis (and you may wield certain truths about them to design performance of a system). In an analogous way, it would be similar to tracking which processes of personality type "light up" under varying circumstances. Each state-variable (or process) has associated with it a magnitude and a phase-shift (or delay for a discrete system). We look at the parts and analyse them because it is easier to wrap our minds around it and exploit certain truths about it, and it's bearing on the whole system. In fact, the whole system behaves as a single unit, each "part" seeing and acting on all other parts in that system SIMULTANEOUSLY. It is the scaling factors (gain) and feedback mechanisms (looking at the result, and feeding it back to the input for correction) of these state variables that affect how the system behaves.
So, I beleive real live people may be MODELED by formulas AND algorithms, although incredibly complex ones that are certainly of a non-linear nature, and not really able to be fully modeled or understood by our limited (as of yet) understanding of ourselves. This would be where John and I diverge on our ways of thinking about inputs to people and expected results (he likes to think in ones and zeros... on and off switches. He is digital. I am analog. I like to think in terms of the degree to which something may be on, and that a switch turned half way on does not behave as a switch should). I am seldom surprised by unexpected results. I don't even claim to be good at delivering the inputs to other people. Because even there, the system (of one individual) becomes a subsystem of a much larger network of interconnectedness among many people in a much larger system (society).
<<Thus, an INTJ is NOT composed of I + N + T + P..... NOR are they comprised of Ni + Te + Fi + Se, etc. (You hear this kind of nonsense showing up in type language sometimes. The flaw becomes particularly apparent when someone claims to be something like INTJ/P -- which is nonsensical once you understand the theory.>>
I love you. Will you marry me? (but you're already taken-- aren't you?)
<< So I'm merely pitching the reminder out that these things can't be separated into tidy little component parts like INTJs are so fond of. People are not "things" -- and they can never be entirely separated from the context of the *whole*. RIght? >>
People are things that do not like to think they are things. I don't even like my own statement I just made. But, fundamentally I believe it. I agree, they cannot be entirely seperated from the context of the whole.
Let's consider that we exist in the "mind" of God (however you want to define "creator" in any grand sense of the word) as near dimensionless points in relation... First diminsion is length, second width, third depth (which we exist in at any given point in time), fourth is time... etc... and they climb... until you have God encompassing all. It is why even asking "when" God began makes no sense. Time is a dimensional concept within the whole of God, and does not exist on the outside of it/him. We are no more than ideas created in the "mind" of God, and we have "free will". We may interact. make decisions. And the conciousness of God has made a decsion on where he wants to go and how he wants to get there (a J tendency... heh... if you believe the biblical theology). Any idea (or person) "for" this single minded direction is "Good". And by definition, all not inline actively persuing that end is "Evil".
And in the end, even within our own little "universe" of our specific physics laws (because there do "exist" others in the realm of Gods "mind") we are still just "things". But, the conciousness "thing" in us doesn't let us like to think that is all we are. I don't. I often pretend otherwise and convince myself quite nicely that I am not. That I am more than the sum of my parts. And I am happier for it.
I'm not saying I really believe the line of theological baloney I just fed everyone. I might. But I might not. I'm not sure yet. I thought along these lines when I was like 14. Then I waxed and waned, then I broadened my learning experiences and lines of thought, then I went back. I'm quite sure that it very well could take nearly the rest of my life to decide. Then again, who cares? Sometimes I do.
I also think every XSXJ I know so far in this life is going straight to Hell when they die (except for the one that I fell in love with many years ago). At least my version of it. Which would probably be their heaven. o_O
Heh, if they went to my heaven, they would be in their hell. What a wonderful revenge!!! (But then I would be stuck with them... my own subset of hell within my Heaven!!! unghh!)
Not sayin' I believe *that* either. But it is fun to think about.
<<Mmmmm, you sound rather like my INTJ husband, who makes similar comments all the time about INTJs he encounters. I surmise it's interesting to see where you've been, and imagine where you might be going. ;-) >>
I am receptive to that if you are really interested. It would be a mutual investment of the same. email me. Not discussing it in open forum. So, we have to limit it to one-on-one learning of personal experiences from one another.
<<Okay, let's bear down on it. What on earth would "strength" of a preference mean? It would either mean one is being DOMINEERING with it (which I don't think is what you are proposing); or it would mean that the person has relinquished use of the other processes in order to favor this one -- in which case, somebody who is "off-the-scale with their 'N' strength" would have to be flakier than the Pillsbury Doughboy (once again not a very flattering notion methinks). These are two ways of quantifying "strength." What else could "strength" refer to in the context of psychological type? (Bearing in mind, of course, that Jung's viewpoint of psychological type is that human beings tend to have a *problem* of being too "one-sided," and his theory was intended to help people develop the other aspects of themselves and overcome that -- so, again, celebrating "one-sidedness" is illogical within the context of Jung's theory. :-/) >>
<<I concede that a process may be more *developed* in its use with some individuals than others. Particularly in environments (families? cultures?) where use of a certain process is discouraged might result in less development of a preferred process than might be optimal for that individual. But even then, it's not like there is an easy yardstick to measure that. It's possible the person has adapted quite well but has found ways to disguise or compensate with another process so as to *look* like they aren't using it. (INTJs seem particularly good at masking their Ni, which is culturally less acceptable than their Te -- although some INTJs look a little one-sided with their Te because the culture has encouraged to mistrust their own best gift. :-/) >>
Hmmm... yes. I see how you are laying this all out. And I believe this level of *development* is closest to what I mean by "strength". So let's just use the word developed, then. And I do see some other words of meaning you have used on other deminsions like DOMINEERING, which is really a "preference excercised in excess??? more than ANY other to an inappropriate degree?" which is a result of "strength of DESIRE to use it". But, yes, I am talking of strength of the function itself, so it would be closest to meaning "developed". And how well a function is "developed" is a result of (a) talant/natural intelligence in that particular function (which affects the "speed" at which one may develop out a process), (b) opportunity to develop (like you said, you may be in an environment that "supresses" you using certain functions based on the system of rewards and punishments in place there), and (c) Preference (and I think we all know what this means).
Heh. I get beat up quite frequently by my ESTJ boss for using my Ni. And I have gotten VERY good at beating back with my Te, although in very subtle but effecive ways. It has developed into a mutual respect after I saved his heiney more than a few times. He doesn't question me quite so hard anymore, nor try to argue with me past simplistic reasoning. He also realizes now that I do listen to what he says before i summarily reject his line of sight solutions, because i occasionally employ his solution to pacify him when I do not really have anything to lose in the long run by doing so-- and it buys me "cooperative points" to spend on the things that DO matter to me. But I do use my Ni quite liberally, and am not afraid to do so.
<<Contrary to your wondering above (about the eight processes being "common knowledge"), Dr. John Beebe began developing this notion of the "sequence of eight" in 1988, and is still in the process of evolving his theory. Many type enthusiasts are unfamiliar with his ideas, and with others there is resistance to his viewpoint in some parts of the type community (particularly amongst the "old guard"). Only three of the eight qualifying program providers teach his version of the theory. Most people suppose they know everything there is to know about type by using the MBTI's 4 dichotomy scales (I/E, S/N, F/T, J/P), and are loath to update their thinking with an improved framework.>>
Thank you for that bit of enlightment!!! I resist no viewpoint. I embrace them all. Then throw out what doesn't make sense. Until it does. Then I will re-evaluate it.
<<... (The "strength" nonsense came about from people thinking the scores they get from taking the MBTI represent "strength" rather than "degree of clarity.") The whole thing starts to look like a mongrel Heinz 57 breed, or like E=MC(2) except on Tuesdays when we like it to mean something else altogether. =8-O >>
Nope. You straightened me out on that one many months ago. And what you said then makes sense as it does now. It is not what I talk about when i talk of strength. I think we should used the word developed.
<<Anyway, one of the better type books now available is titled "8 Keys to Self-Leadership" by Dario Nardi (INTJ), and it describes the 8 functions in greater depth, and indicates what level of development one may have achieved for each one of them. Nardi describes the processes in depth, and provides a self-assessment in each chapter for a person to ascertain how well developed they are in using each of the processes.>>
Hey... I have this on order now!!!
<<That's as close as I'm willing to get to conceding any aspect of type could be called "strength" of a process (if it's translated to "level of development") -- and my hunch is that most people aren't nearly that sophisticated and are relying on those numbers they get from some "test" or what they hear others say.>>
ok. I am glad we had this conversation.
<<Truthfully, I don't myself care all that much how "strong" or even "developed" the processes are for most people -- I'm more interested in whether or not they are matching their processes appropriately to any given task: for instance, using Feeling to solve Feeling problems, and Thinking to solve Thinking problems -- not using Thinking to solve Feeling problems or Feeling to solve Thinking problems! (INTJs may have some horror stories to share about attempting to do this unsuccessfully....?) An ability to use the right process for a given problem is a more accurate indication of individuation than measuring whatever someone might call "strength." >>
I wouldn't say I care about this for most people. Only for myself and people/significant others I bond with. I need the stroking on certain levels. And it needs to be a mutually endearing long term experience, filled with many, many mutually endearing short term experiences.
<< Is that drilled down enough, or can I stop now? ;-D >>
Not even close. I could keep going. But I do understand if you tire of this. This is almost as good as sex for me (but not quite). Ok, maybe it is. I'm not really sure yet. Going through this with you makes my heart leap out of my chest. Every time. In a major way. I do not know why. It just does. Another person has done this intellectual thing to me recently. She lives on the other side of the world, I have never met her, I have no clue what she looks like, she is evasive as hell, and I am not even 100% convinced she is a woman (she says she is, and I believe her) but she has been a conduit for expanding my mind and ideas in ways beyond that which I was able to previously consider. It is fun taking intellectual journey's with her. But they are not intellectual facts like with you. They are intellectual metaphors and abstractions on a completely different plane. And I like it. And it feeds my emotions some how. It is the intellectual equivalent of falling in love for me, but it is not love. Or maybe it is. it could be. But it is different some how. I do feel the endorphines.
She started me on writing poetry. I didn't even know I had any talent for it. I was very surprised that her free-style came very naturally for me, so I picked it up. So it is very easy for us to communicate that way. She is much more right brained than I am. I believe I am more balanced, with a tilt toward the left. But now, maybe a little more balanced than before, or maybe even to the right. She claims she is INTJ, but I dunno. Is there any correlations or studies on right-brained versus left-brained INTJ's? or any other of the personalities for that matter?
So, what is this? For me. What is happening? with her and you. what is the attraction, VJ? Coz it is nearly overwhelming sometimes when I am in the middle of it.
I did read "We" by the way. This is my take on it. Robert Johnson applies his thinking functions to a feeling problem. Right? And isn't that one of the loops which you try to help people grow out of? Of course, i am teasing you, but I am making a valid point, too (does recognizing this get me any points for growing beyond using thinking functions for feeling problems? Maybe you recommended it BECAUSE I am a thinker). I do think he has some very interesting ideas and paints some things in a metaphorical way, and extracts from those some useful cause-and-effect scenerios. Particularly, I find his concepts of passionate love and compassionate love very useful and enlightening. And the psycology of "man" versus that of "woman", anima and animus, is interesting. I see that Robert's view is that as a western culture, our concept of love is much more passionate than that of eastern culture, which is much more compassionate. But, here's the thing with me: I need both in my life. Not all one way or all the other. I do not seek an enduring "religious" experience with my partner per se, although I would like to experience sex as a "religious" experience from time to time-- (with all of the physical, emotional, AND intellectual happening AT THE SAME TIME-- Heh, I am all for sensory overload, inside and out). I have never been here before, but I would like to go.
Actually, if you go to my profile, I have written a lot of thoughts (questions and answers) that were generated from this book. If you wanna take any of it up with me, I would be happy to indulge you with it.
By the way, i am on Aphrodite's calandar. Persistance. Heh. :o) Yes, I am still attracted to her. Not sure where I want this to go just yet, but other aspects of my life have already been cleaned up, which is important to me no matter what happens this point going forward. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 9:09 AMI read Wyatt and Vicki Jo's posts and I think: "Could I do it? Could I get my mind to work in such directions, such ideas, such dialogue?"
What I can do is follow it, track with it, and marvel at how your minds work. :) I enjoy seeing how you examine an issue. The slicing and dicing is a site to behold :) For what it's worth, I feel as if I grow as a person just by reading what you have to say. So thank you for sharing your discussion with us.
And on the other hand, I go back to the dark ENFP place of insecurity, wondering if the INTJ I know would be happier with an INFJ. :) I have no similar ability to offer. The currency of the ENFP is warmth, enthusiasm, acceptance, hopes and dreams. I understand that it depends on him as individual, not his MBTI type, and what he would look for in someone. But for the sake of discussion, could an INTJ really value an ENFP (and our gifts) the way an ENFP could value those of the INTJ?
*Note: if this post has been a ridiculous insecure inquiry, please feel free to disregard* -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 9:18 AMDon't sell yourself short, ENFP dreamer. I would take most ENFP's I know over any other of the types I know. At the end of the day, you come home to a person, interact with them, and need the intimacy. How I interact with your type as a whole and in person is MUCH more dramatic and meaningful to me on a whole other level.
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 1:43 PMWhoa whoa whoa.
Coach hat snaps on.
Have you ever noticed how easy it is to "measure" ourselves against other people, and how often we come up short? We rig that game against ourselves. I think somebody out there calls it "comparing our insides to other people's outsides." We can do quite a number on ourselves with those yardsticks.
Fact: if my husband and I didn't know so much about psychological type, I don't know if we could have hung together this long. Even so, the thing strains and creaks at the seams quite a bit. Suffice it to say that INFJ + INTJ is not necessarily a match made in heaven. (I just hadn't gotten around to explaining that to Wyatt yet. ;-D)
Were we on the phone and you my client, I would set an egg-timer for five minutes and challenge you to say what's great about you for the entire 5 minutes, no stopping, lots of enthusiasm, preferably standing up, possibly in a mirror. "What's great about you?" I challenge you to try it by yourself!
I went through a phase in my coach training where I was convinced I couldn't be a good coach because I did NOT have ENFP preferences -- no joke! I know a little something about insecurity. So if nothing else..... right back atcha!! ;-P -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 4:28 PMok, I'm gonna go with an analogy here, because i am good at them... o_O
I believe that Personlality Type creates a great framework for looking at people as if they were pieces of a jig-saw puzzle.
Statistcally, there is really only a limited number of "general shapes" in a puzzle, and they repeat. But there are many, many more when you look more closely at the specific shapes-- where the fine detail is. Some puzzle pieces fit together with a lot less effort than with other pieces. The strain in a relationship comes from forcing two pieces together, and the number of stress points where they "don't quite fit as nicely". At these stress points, we usually change something, shave off the rough edges, or wear them off, or become flexible with a give and take... or we just live with the stress, or split the puzzle fitting and match it with another. Some pieces never fit together so well. Some work at it, and they do. It is also possible that two shapes theoretically fit together very well, with very little effort, but the picture that they make together isn't so good. Heh, there is a lot involved. At the end of the day, no analysis is going to tell you who you are attracted to, or how a coupling will work out. At the end of the day, it is the specifics of the two puzzle pieces that matter. And whether you like the picture. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 4:35 PM>>It is also possible that two shapes theoretically fit together very well, with very little effort, but the picture that they make together isn't so good. <<
I found this part of the analogy especially interesting. What real-life scenario does this analogy represent? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 4:42 PMtheoretically, two temperaments can be "fit" together fine, but the specifics of their upbringing may not jive...
(a) religious beliefs
(b) sexual appitites
(c) culture/refinement
(d) racial barriers (yes, in today's day and age, that can still be a problem on a relationship level with some people)
(e) gender (male/male, male/female, human/animal... wait a minute, I better not go there...)
(f) asthetics (yes, this will matter to some people, too)
(g) psycological specifics
(h) etc.... -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 4:47 PMcouldn't you also say that all those factors are subsumed within your original analogy, that the male and female parts of the puzzle are shaped in part by mbti, in part by those factors, in part by whatever else... in essence, either there's a good, natural fit (and all is bliss) or there isn't a good fit and the parties need to get to work.
not to beat the metaphor to death... but if two pieces fit perfectly, doesn't it follow that they were supposed to go together and hence the picture (or the part of the picture composed of these two parts) will be coherent... it's the pieces that don't fit together - that weren't supposed to go together - where the picture won't make sense.
I don't like the whole "supposed to go together" bit though... since nothing is preordained, etc. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 5:19 PM<<couldn't you also say that all those factors are subsumed within your original analogy, that the male and female parts of the puzzle are shaped in part by mbti, in part by those factors, in part by whatever else... in essence, either there's a good, natural fit (and all is bliss) or there isn't a good fit and the parties need to get to work. >>
Lol... Why yes, you COULD say that. It is just a construct-- you can say anything you want. But I chose not to in this case because it left the puzzle "shape" soley with the temperament pattern, which is easier to see, and to work in other details affecting it (like stress points).
<<not to beat the metaphor to death... but if two pieces fit perfectly, doesn't it follow that they were supposed to go together and hence the picture (or the part of the picture composed of these two parts) will be coherent... it's the pieces that don't fit together - that weren't supposed to go together - where the picture won't make sense.>>
I LOVE beating metaphors to death!!! Let's beat this one to death!
Puzzles are cut-up on a machine with a repeating pattern. It does NOT follow that they were supposed to go together if they fit together perfectly... (ok, maybe if you get down on a microscopic level, you can say that.. but on a real world level, you can actually have two pieces that do not go together that fit togeather "near" perfectly. And many MORE that "kind-of" fit togeather.) And in the end, we are not all connecting together to form one great big gigantic puzzle (like a marriage orgy, unless you want to consider a big polygamous society... unghhh!! that would be WAY complicated.) We are only talking about placing "two" pieces together for a fit, and with part of a bigger picture that is somewhat congruent... it only has to "appear" to be the right picture on a grander scale... i.e. blue/white sky with blue/white sky, tree branches with tree branches, mountains with mountains... etc...
<<I don't like the whole "supposed to go together" bit though... since nothing is preordained, etc. >>
I don't either. I think there are many pieces that "kind of " fit with many other pieces, and this is what we work with. I don't think there is actually an "ideal fit", and if there was, I don't have until i am 1028 years old to find her. I think many INTJ's think more like we do. But I have met many ENFP's that do in fact think there is an "ideal person" or two who are "meant to be". I view this line of thought as a rationalization "after the fact". -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 5:55 PMHere's a way out of this morass of having 10,000 random puzzle pieces on the dining table...
What is our end goal? Is it having two puzzle pieces fit together? Or having a picture that makes sense, regardless of how the piece fit together? Or is it both?
We can structure this analogy any way we want, since reality is just a pawn to the INTJ... but after taking this analogy around the block, I would end up right where we started: people can fit together naturally but the end result - the picture - may not make sense because they want different things. Thus stated, the male/female pieces represent interaction style, communication style, attraction... all the things that make a relationship a possibility. The picture is what both parties want - common religious beliefs, family plans, career goals, marriage, etc. To some extent the picture is tied to the puzzle fit - goals are influenced by temperament - but to some extent the picture can be analyzed. agreed? -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 6:09 PMlast sentence should read: "but to some extent the picture can be analyzed *separately*."
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 6:23 PM<<What is our end goal? Is it having two puzzle pieces fit together? Or having a picture that makes sense, regardless of how the piece fit together? Or is it both? >>
I think it is both. But we only have part of a picture. The two pieces only have to "look congruent", AND fit somewhat, whether that means shaving some parts off, or cramming them together in parts...
<<We can structure this analogy any way we want, since reality is just a pawn to the INTJ... but after taking this analogy around the block, I would end up right where we started: people can fit together naturally but the end result - the picture - may not make sense because they want different things. >>
Yes.
<<Thus stated, the male/female pieces represent interaction style, communication style, attraction... all the things that make a relationship a possibility.>>
I would still choose the shape of the pieces to be that of temperament, so that we pull *that* part out to be looked at seperately, not mixed in with anything else. Since that is what our topic and domain in tribe propels (type, temprament, mbti...). I don't know that attraction belongs there. We are trying to make that connection here, though. So I don't know. I know different people are attracted to different things. Different INTJ's seem to be attracted to differnent personalities... like ESFPs... INFJ.s...
<< The picture is what both parties want - common religious beliefs, family plans, career goals, marriage, etc. To some extent the picture is tied to the puzzle fit - goals are influenced by temperament - but to some extent the picture can be analyzed *seperately*. agreed? >>
Yeah, ok. I'll buy that. -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 6:28 PMso if picture = life goals,
and
male/female pieces = temperament,
what do you assign to attraction, communication style, interaction style, etc? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 6:34 PMcommunication style, interaction style = f(temprament)
attraction = MAGNETISM.... YES! We now have MAGNETIC puzzle pieces!!!
And your tribe thread is trying to explore a unfied theory of Personality Type and Attraction (but only the specfic case of the INTJ-ENFP)!
Lol!! -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 6:47 PMor I should say,
temperament = f(communication style, interaction style, ....)
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 6:48 PMi'll do you one better: a relationship with compatible temperament style and common goals is like two 2D puzzle pieces that fit and provide a coherent picture. (you know where this is going...)This is a platonic / friendly / convenient relationship. In Greek mythological terms, this would be called philia.
Attraction, by contrast, add an *uplifting* character to the whole dimension, thus turning the puzzle into 3D. If this attraction forms the basis of lve, then we have eros.
And the grand unified theory... well, yes, I seek one that can explain *everything*! -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 6:51 PMROFLMAO!!! I don't think Einstein, Samuel Clemons, Tom Sawyer, or Huck Finn had ANYthing on US!!!
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 7:50 PMHere's the unified theory (at least for relationships):
anyone you are attracted to is there to teach you something. Otherwise the attraction wouldn't be there to begin with.
Heaven only knows what that "something" might be.
I suspect my husband may have been attracted to me because he wanted to explore extraverted Feeling. I suspect I may have been drawn to my husband because I wanted to explore extraverted Thinking. And there have been a few other obstacles we've stumbled across that the Universe probably threw out there for us to individuate over. Money, boundaries, accomplishment. All manner of juicy stuff.
Whenever you walk away from one relationship where the learning is "too hard," chances are you'll just find another that's got the same lesson in it; it just comes in a different package.
The Universe is sneaky that way. If she's gonna larn ya, she'll find a way to larn ya. Unless you "check out" and go numb, brittle, harden your arteries. Plenty of that sort around. -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 8:08 PMQuery whether your husband's DomNi, as supported/influenced by his Te, is different from your Ni. If so, did it offer you anything new to explore? Or is the dominant function unaffected by the supporting function, and thus whatever differences believed to exist between the two dominant functions are actually due to the supporting functions? Does this make any sense? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 10:41 PMGreat question. Trouble is, it's hard to separate out the functions since they all cooperate together systemically in the personality.
Certainly my husband and I seem to "dream together" well, which seems to be an Ni affinity. For instance, we dreamed of getting engaged on the Eiffel Tower and married at Stonehenge, and we achieved that together! And we have realized a number of other dreams together.
But I would say we use our Ni differently overall. It seems to me that I regard myself as an "empty vessel" that Ni will simply pour itself into from time to time. But INTJs seem to "wield" their Ni, and "use" it to navigate their way through the universe more like a light saber. (Based on conversations with some highly type-knowledgeable INTJs I know.)
DH and I are both "show-offs" somewhat, and we shop well together besides, which I think is affinity around Se (the inferior function). ;-D
But for the rest of it..... sometimes I feel like Little John and Robin Hood, balanced on a log that traverses a rushing brook, doing battle with oak staffs and trying to knock one other into the water. These oak staffs represent our auxiliary and tertiary functions (tandem processes):: Fe <---> Ti for me, and Te <---> Fi for him. When we get into those battles, it's unpleasant. It seems like first we hit with one end of the staff, and then we switch to the other side of the staff to hit with.
How does that look in practice? Um, sometimes he hits me with the Te end of the staff, like being insistent about not having enough time to do something. Irritated, I hit back with the Fe end of my staff, complaining that he is undermining my aspirations. Then he goes into "injured" mode and thus hits me with the Fi side of his staff -- and then I get all analytical about what's happening and hit him with the Ti end of my staff. You get the idea. <|8-P
That's how it looks with the type model, anyway. The temperament model is something else again. It seems to me that INTJs such as my husband use their preferred cognitive processes to realize their Theorist core temperament values (such as competence, knowledge, mastery and self-control), whilst I use mine to realize my Catalyst core temperament values (unique identity, relationship, meaning, authenticity). Because of this, our expressions of Ni will forever seem very different.
(It does look quite similar through a social styles model, however!)
Is this helpful? Did it answer your question? -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 11:22 PMIt's quite helpful. The vessel/light saber comparison is interesting... I suspect that's due to the differences in supporting type. Wielding a light saber sounds very utilitarian (Te) whereas the vessel analogy has overtones of emotional nourishment and energy.
How is Ni dreaming different from Ne dreaming? Is it fair to say that one is more purpose-oriented while the other is more possibility-oriented? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 11:43 PMNi dreaming seems to be "convergent" whilst Ne dreaming seems to be "divergent."
Ne is interested in the "future" in terms of what is "emergent." (All extraverted processes are related to the present moment in some fashion: Ne, Se, Te, Fe)
Ni is interested in the "future" in terms of "eternity." It shows up for me as having a very existential outlook. When I have "inner knowing," it anchors me. I probably couldn't talk to you about religion for more than 10 minutes (and if we were arguing, more like 10 seconds probably), but I *know* God has always been an integral part of my life. I *know* every cloud has a silver lining. I *know* I have a purpose on this planet. I *know* so many petty things don't matter. I *know* souls matter.
Oy, I feel like I took a metaphysical pill! --- which is the other thing! I'm feeling somewhat nauseous now because this is all the stuff I keep *inside* (introverted iNtuiting, remember).... so I'm generally disquieted by *women* who talk about such things on the *outside* (extraverted iNtuiting). All those endless possibilities are supposed to stay WITHIN. It's really annoying to hear them frittered away on the outside rather than treasured on the inside where they belong! (;-D)
(BTW, Ne men I am attracted to; Ne women I am repulsed by. Thank you, Shadow.)
How we doin'?
(PS: The light saber vs. empty vessel is less emotional nourishment&energy vs. utilitarian than perhaps yin/yang energy....? I think that's what I think.) -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 12:13 AMLots of nuggest in that post...
I'll need to digest this for a few days... incorporate it into my emerging understanding of cognitive processes. I guess I see what it means for a function to be extraverted - if it is directed toward the external world, by necessity it must be happening in the present, as that is how we interact with the external world. An introverted function however, can be timeless or future-oriented because time is much more relative/unfixed in one's mind. Whaddaya think?
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 12:31 AMAccording to the experts, all introverted functions are somewhat "idealized," and are very attached to the archetype (they say). The timeframes are thus:
Perceiving:
Ni: future
Si: past
Judging:
Fi: timeless
Ti: universal
(not as sure with these last two; I'm too lazy to go look them up right now)
So the idea is that when you "attach to the archetype," you automatically operate out of different timeframes than what you do with the extraverted functions (as you recognized).
In terms of the Thinking functions, I'm always looking for universal systems that operate under all conditions (Ti). Precision and elegant efficiency are my goals.
In contrast, extraverted thinking deals with problems in the here-and-now, immediate situation. Like, how shall we clean up this room we're looking at? Or, how shall we schedule our employees for the coming month? Or, let's get that vacation booked right now. That sort of thing.
Try it yourself: when you enter your Thinking mindset, do you notice immediate concerns?
Does Feeling seem to focus on eternal values?
Is iNtuiting a way to shape your future?
Is Sensing about what you're smelling, tasting, grooving, buying right now?
You tell me. ;-D -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 12:40 AMFrom my experience, I would flip the time dimensions for FI and Ti. Fi for me is more about universal values (which I need to keep reminding myself is different from societal values. It's more intrinsic and thus shared by all rather than by some). Ti is timeless or rather, without time. Your expertise with Ti is more extensive than mine, but wouldn't you agree that concerns about efficiency, precision, inherent cohesion exist without regard to time? In other words, when thinking about whether a word accurately describes a concept or phenomenon, one does not think about how this phenomenon used to be defined hundreds of years ago (but if you do, then you're engaging in Si, right?). The definition simply exists.
Everything else seems fitting. Neat stuff! -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 2:13 AMAwright awright awright. I got off my butt and went looking for the book after all.
I don't know if I'm looking in the *right* book, but Berens time-stamps both Ti and Fi as "universal" in the book I'm looking at. So now I don't know what I'm trying to remember or where it's from. Sigh... I'll probably trip over it again sometime, but please don't hold your breath.
For me, the best example of Ti that I ever witnessed (I think!) was via a friend of mine who designed databases with me at The Walt Disney Company (INTP preferences). He designed a database for the sales department of The Disney Channel that was "universal" in that it could give you a "snapshot" at any point in time. So you could look at the sales "picture" a year ago, a week ago, today, tomorrow, in a week, next month, next year, etc. You could seemingly "enter" the database at any interval in time and be provided with a "picture." And, of course, the more data that was entered into the file, the more robust and accurate the snapshots would be. I thought that was a great example of "timelessness" -- as in, not being trapped in any particular timeframe.
One of the most intriguing examples of Ti versus Te I've ever experienced was a discussion I had once with my INTJ husband once about defining money. It was long and involved a great deal of thought. For me, I got down to some level about money being an "energy exchange," while my husband was insistent that it was a commonly-agreed-upon form of exchange. (Something like that. I know I am misremembering parts of it.)
Anyway, my definition was aiming for the timeless of money and its impact on "the system," while his definition focused on the "outer world" application of it and the "common ground" that was involved.
I got to experience how different these two Thinking processes were in that instant.
A friend of mine labels it "amen-chorus" when a group agrees about stuff. So I figure both Te and Fe are "amen-chorus" processes. Fe is concerned about behaviors "in the moment" (i.e., manners), while Te is concerned about efficiency "in the moment." Both are centrally organized around culturally agreed-upon standards and are evoked by the here-and-now.
And, of course, everybody prefers one or the other (never both).
Go figure, hunh..... -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 9:14 AMOkay, so as a female, with a dominant process of Ne, I'm in trouble, or rather, I am trouble, eh, Vicki Jo? :)
I've acutally wondered if this part of me is annoying to Mr. INTJ. Not sure.
I think it maybe something behind the insecurities that keep bubbling up.
I realize I have a hard time with his Se when it rears it's shallow little head! :) But then I remember that I'm not perfect and my struggles get really yucky, too. But it does leave me the lingering concern that he may prefer someone more sensing than myself.
On a different note, I do, however, very much appreciate the coaching encouragements you shared with me related to believing in myself. I know that I have a tremendous struggle with comparing myself in my weak areas to others' strengths, which is never a fair fight. I was raised by an INTJ mom, an ISTJ dad, an ISTP stepfather, and an ESFJ stepmom. I was really an odd duck amongst most of this crowd and I'm sure it affects why I keep being drawn to INTJ's.
In terms of affirming myself, I think so much of what I think I offer to the world has to do with Ne, so it's ironic to hear that it may not be well received "out there." The predominant sense of myself I have is that I love people. I love their quirks, their "flaws", their attempts to try their best. I love seeing people's eyes, and trying to understand how they got to be who they are and who they are trying desperately to be if they could *just get it together.* :) I feel most fully alive when writing songs and sharing them. The goal I have with that is capturing in words and sounds something that touches hearts on a deep level, that reasonates with very deep places within, and communicates that "you are not alone" and moves people to live another day with courage and perhaps some wonder and awe. I really don't want to promote myself, but to help people feel loved through a song. It may sound strange. But in one realm, music, I see the covergence of everything I've experienced, a forum to *put it all* into, maybe even a reason for being here. I've heard feelers and thinkers alike tell me that one song I wrote has stuck with them and impacted their life for the better. To me that is so divine. I have that view that I gain my life by giving it away . . .
Okay, I hope this isn't too much Ne rambling here. I have to say that I have so thoroughly enjoying learning about all of you involved in the discussion. I don't share some of the processes mentioned (mine are Ne, Fi, Te, Si), but I love hearing how they operate in your lives and affect relationship dynamics. I desire to grow to that place where I respect each person just as much in areas where we're different as where we are the same. I am so new to understanding how the processes I have may be affecting my life and relationships. Any guidance on this is appreciated. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 4:10 PM>>Okay, so as a female, with a dominant process of Ne, I'm in trouble, or rather, I am trouble, eh, Vicki Jo? :)
Yeah, you know you're trouble. ;-)
>>I've acutally wondered if this part of me is annoying to Mr. INTJ. Not sure.
Of course you've wondered. And I have No Idea. (See my unified theory of relationships above.)
>>I think it maybe something behind the insecurities that keep bubbling up.
>>I realize I have a hard time with his Se when it rears it's shallow little head! :) But then I remember that I'm not perfect and my struggles get really yucky, too. But it does leave me the lingering concern that he may prefer someone more sensing than myself.
Oh THANK YOU for that! Extraverted Sensing is definitely gonna rile you. (Just like that "know-it-all" Ni irritatingly checkmates your Ne just when the party's getting started. ;-D)
>> On a different note, I do, however, very much appreciate the coaching encouragements you shared with me related to believing in myself. I know that I have a tremendous struggle with comparing myself in my weak areas to others' strengths, which is never a fair fight. I was raised by an INTJ mom, an ISTJ dad, an ISTP stepfather, and an ESFJ stepmom. I was really an odd duck amongst most of this crowd and I'm sure it affects why I keep being drawn to INTJ's.
Oh my. You were raised by wolves. You have probably struggled with "type falsification" all your life. What I mean by that is that it probably wasn't "safe" to have your type preferences in your family (although your dad probably "gets you" better than anybody, since he is your "inverse type"). When one's type preferences are not honored in one's family of origin, it can be a struggle to get validated for one's innate gifts. So I'm not at all surprised you struggle with feeling insecure.
In the coaching I do, I work with my clients to be "normal." Mind you, I define that term very precisely! "Normal is that which functions in accord with its design." And I want my coaching clients to function according to their innate design. "ENFP" is your "flower of consciousness," and it needs to bloom for you to feel purposeful in the world. Even when circumstances or the environment don't encourage the flowering, it's the only way to realize your full potential.
>> In terms of affirming myself, I think so much of what I think I offer to the world has to do with Ne, so it's ironic to hear that it may not be well received "out there."
Yes, I always feel the same way about my gifts. We are all of us biased toward the benefits of our own gifts!!
>>The predominant sense of myself I have is that I love people. I love their quirks, their "flaws", their attempts to try their best. I love seeing people's eyes, and trying to understand how they got to be who they are and who they are trying desperately to be if they could *just get it together.* :) I feel most fully alive when writing songs and sharing them. The goal I have with that is capturing in words and sounds something that touches hearts on a deep level, that reasonates with very deep places within, and communicates that "you are not alone" and moves people to live another day with courage and perhaps some wonder and awe. I really don't want to promote myself, but to help people feel loved through a song. It may sound strange. But in one realm, music, I see the covergence of everything I've experienced, a forum to *put it all* into, maybe even a reason for being here. I've heard feelers and thinkers alike tell me that one song I wrote has stuck with them and impacted their life for the better. To me that is so divine. I have that view that I gain my life by giving it away . . .
Wow, it sounds like you are in touch with your life purpose! What a wonderful gift. I wonder how you can bring this skill you have with music to your relationship challenge? What kind of "song" would your conversation be? A ballad? A lullaby? What are the rhythms that this relationship honors?
>> Okay, I hope this isn't too much Ne rambling here. I have to say that I have so thoroughly enjoying learning about all of you involved in the discussion. I don't share some of the processes mentioned (mine are Ne, Fi, Te, Si), but I love hearing how they operate in your lives and affect relationship dynamics. I desire to grow to that place where I respect each person just as much in areas where we're different as where we are the same. I am so new to understanding how the processes I have may be affecting my life and relationships. Any guidance on this is appreciated.
Just stepping into that place of determination to honor diversity No Matter What is the most courageous step you can take. And know that all kinds of stuff is going to happen to you that will try to shake you loose from that commitment, and all of it is for Your Own Good -- your own growth, your own learning. That's what it's all about.
If you can hang onto that, you'll have done more than most people ever get to with their type understanding.
Gotta run, much to do today. :-O
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 10:08 AMInteresting examples. Will have to mull it over. Thanks!
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 9:07 AM<<Other INTJs that opt in, as it were, and would choose an ENFP seem to do so because they aspire to have a more passionate relationship, at least outwardly so. More spontaneous, carefree, etc. They believe in the complementarity of functions that results in an INTJ-ENFP pairing.>>
I prefer a highly passionate relationship, outwardly and inwardly. I have always felt this way. I have found that other types do not quite work as well for me at creating this highly passionate feeling that perpetuates itself.
<<I'm really curious as to what accounts for this difference within the INTJ ranks. Does it correllate with T-heavy INTJs versus N-heavy INTJs? Can we identify gradations and sub-types within INTJs?>>
I think it is dependant on several variables. We have considered the strength of the Ne<-->Ni dynamic pairing above, and of the other supporting processes. Now, let's look at how these processes can be satisfied on various levels within one's life.
They can be satisfied within
1. an extended family unit (mother, father, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins)
2. an established network of ones friends (inner circle to outer circle)
3. a monogomous relationship (girl/boy friend, spouse)
4. a set of polyamorous relationships (yeah, all of that)
Now, not everyone has the same level of extended family unit or established network of friends.
1. On family, you can't choose it (except for who you marry). We have what we are born with, and they will be nurturing to our needs or they won't be.
2. On friends, an INTJ who has been established in an area for a long time will have a wider and deeper network than if he/she has just settled in area, in which case it could take a very long time to build up that network.
3. So, when looking for that mate, spouse (or haram...o_O), what is the immediate need of the INTJ? What are they deficient in satisfying to reach that deeper level? I also think you are correct in assessing the strength of the letters, as it will also be an indicator of the strength of NEED to reach that deeper level, minus the need that the immediate environment is already providing. So, what does an equation look like? Let's try this one for a first stab (we can modify later, we are just having a little fun here):
INTJ desire = INTJ process need - INTJ process fulfillment from immediate environment
where
INTJ process need is some function (I strength, N strength, T strength, J strength).
Let's end this steam-of-conciousness thought on this note: I believe that we can sit down and write out on paper every single thing that we *think* we want or desire in a mate. The reality is when these people are presented in front of us and we instead choose someone COMPLETELY different becasue at that point we are feeding off of experiencing the *person*, and whatever chemistry is feeding back and forth between one another. The elements of learned attraction from our upbringing versus what is inate (and carnal) cannot be overlooked; i.e., sometimes we really can not help who we fall in love with. It may be someone who takes you completely by surprise, which is especially true with us INTJ's (we are so oblivious to the obvious sometimes, until it is *there*).
<<PS I'm sorry for offending anyone -- INTJ, ENFP, or otherwise -- with any steretypical remark or overgeneralizations. There is a lot of room to quibble over the above remarks, but my question still stands, and that's what I want to explore.>>
Oh, to hell with that. Let's stereotype and overgeneralize. I'm all for it. At the end, we can just throw out what doesn't make sense and issue apologies. I'd much rather have everything on the table to consider so we don't miss anything. ;oP
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 5:25 PMSpeaking as an INTJ, I very much enjoy the company of ENFPs. I know several including my sister, my brother-in-law, and a couple of friends. They are fun, imaginative, entertaining, and thoughtful. I have so much fun spending time with them. With that being said, I fail to understand the INTJ-ENFP romantic dynamic everyone is always talking about. I actually prefer ESFP. I think maybe it comes down to this:
Being an N, I'm constantly dreaming about future possibilities - starting a new business, or writing a book, etc. Many times my T side kicks in and evaluates whether those possibilities are realistic or not. But since I'm such a strong N, and not as strong of a T (maybe this plays into the N-heavy vs. T-heavy you were talking about), sometimes I go a little off the deep end with an idea and put a lot of time and effort into something before realizing it's really not practical. Being with an S spouse brings often me back to reality. I like to have that balance because I can feel more free to be myself. It's also very, very nice to have an S around to notice things that I wouldn't (i.e. "Did you see the ceiling is starting to leak in the guest bedroom?" or "Your socks don't match!")
For some reason, when I'm with ENFPs, I feel the need to overplay that "logical" role. The ENFPs in my life dream even more than I do (I didn't think it was possible). And they dream differently - is it just me or do ENFPs dream about fame a lot? ENFPs I know will especially watch movies or TV and think, "Hey, I could do that! I should be a country music singer, or a mafia boss, or a ...." (fill in the blank) until they get inspired from something else, and then their dream changes. In that dynamic, my role seems to be the realist, although now that I see they don't actively pursue those goals I stay more silent now and let them enjoy it.
I guess my point is that I like to be the dreamer in the relationship, the one always analyzing the endless possibilies of life. I think Ss make great sounding boards for those ideas. I feel I can be myself, whereas if I were to tell an ENFP about an idea, they would lead me of the diving board with it. Or more likely, they would say "that sounds great!" to most anything and I would still be left wondering whether it's a good idea. So I think, for me, ENFPs make much better friends than significant others. But that's just my take on the issue - I'd love to know if other INTJs have had similar experiences.
As for INTJs in relationships with other INTJs, I can't even imagine. I drive myself crazy enough as it is. I'll take the "opposites attract" road if I have a choice. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 5:52 PM<<... I fail to understand the INTJ-ENFP romantic dynamic everyone is always talking about. I actually prefer ESFP.>>
Lol!!! VJ will love you for this!
<<...But since I'm such a strong N, and not as strong of a T (maybe this plays into the N-heavy vs. T-heavy you were talking about)>>
Lol!!! She will NOT love you for this! (see above dialog on "strength") Personally, I don't care.
<<For some reason, when I'm with ENFPs, I feel the need to overplay that "logical" role. The ENFPs in my life dream even more than I do (I didn't think it was possible). And they dream differently - is it just me or do ENFPs dream about fame a lot? ENFPs I know will especially watch movies or TV and think, "Hey, I could do that! I should be a country music singer, or a mafia boss, or a ...." (fill in the blank) until they get inspired from something else, and then their dream changes. In that dynamic, my role seems to be the realist, >>
And I love to dream with them. Most of my life has been such that my dreams have been held back by realities, or people telling me I "can't". Well, i can. And I like dreaming with people who will dream with me. In the end, i can take practical ideas and make them work. it is most excillerating to me!
<<although now that I see they don't actively pursue those goals I stay more silent now and let them enjoy it.>>
smart move!
<<I guess my point is that I like to be the dreamer in the relationship, the one always analyzing the endless possibilies of life. I think Ss make great sounding boards for those ideas. I feel I can be myself, whereas if I were to tell an ENFP about an idea, they would lead me of the diving board with it.>>
I think VJ might call this a result of "Super N."
<< Or more likely, they would say "that sounds great!" to most anything and I would still be left wondering whether it's a good idea. >>
I am usually able to determine what really is good from what isn't with my thinking functions. I am very analytical that way. I grew up on a farm, and I know what really works at the end of the day. Or at least don't go into it blind not knowing what the risks are.
<<So I think, for me, ENFPs make much better friends than significant others. But that's just my take on the issue - I'd love to know if other INTJs have had similar experiences. >>
<<As for INTJs in relationships with other INTJs, I can't even imagine. I drive myself crazy enough as it is. I'll take the "opposites attract" road if I have a choice.>>
But, what about right-brained vs. left-brained INTJs. I have to admit, the one i have an intellectual "thing" for isn't exaclty like most of us. She is not very... mmm... she's into star-signs, I'm into personalitiy type; she's into poems, mermaids, and paranormal, I am into hard-science, engineering, and... mermaids. o_O -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 7:43 PM>>But, what about right-brained vs. left-brained INTJs. I have to admit, the one i have an intellectual "thing" for isn't exaclty like most of us. She is not very... mmm... she's into star-signs, I'm into personalitiy type; she's into poems, mermaids, and paranormal, I am into hard-science, engineering, and... mermaids. o_O <<
~cough~ ~splutter~
I would seriously wonder if she were mis-typed.
(As previously stated, Keirsey suggests that nearly every other person is probably mis-typed.)
"Poems, mermaids, and paranormal" ?? INTJ??
It doesn't sound like a very accurate temperament match.
Even if you found an INTJ who *was* interested in poems, mermaids, and paranormal, I doubt they would *ever* admit it to anyone, certainly not to anyone via email. =8-O
C'mon, Einstein, are you reeeeeeeeallly interested in mermaids???? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 8:49 PMOkay, I'll bite. (Since you challenged!)
I'm an INTJ and it just so happens that I am very interested in the paranormal, just watched a TV feature on it a couple of nights ago, in fact, and I read a poetry book just yesterday. My undergraduate major was in Spanish language and literature, including poetry (gasp!). (The difference is that my NF classmates went off into the world to apply their language skills helping others, while I was ready to skip the "people" part and learn another language for the intellectual challenge.) As for mermaids.... well.... I've got nothing. I also have many "typical" INTJ interests - web programming, for example.
The description of INTJ fits me to a tee. I've taken at least a dozen different tests and never come up with anything other than a strong INTJ. And no other personality description rings nearly as true.
Being INTJ influences the way I think, the way I deal with the world, the way I analyze problems... but why in the world should it influence whether I can appreciate and enjoy poetry? Earlier today on another MBTI site, I read an entire post (started by an INTJ) with numerous replies from other NTs, ALL IN FREE VERSE.
Call me mistyped if you wish... -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 10:58 PMIn the first place, it seems difficult to find an INTJ who isn't interested in nearly *everything* at some level, given their need for acquiring knowledge and gaining competence. So all bets are off at that level. Heck, at that level, I'd easily get an earful from some INTJ about ... animal husbandry. (I recognize this was an ideal opportunity to make a wonderful joke/pun, and I couldn't think of one -- my apologies.)
As far as poetry-writing competence, I know of some INTJ email lists my husband participates in where they have somehow chosen some meter of verse and exchanged posts with one another, all adhering to the proper form. (It seems like an interesting Te challenge -- language with difficult limitations!) My husband happens to love Chaucer, and will occasionally recite, and I do have a lovely poem from him somewhere which I hope to someday have professionally calligraphed and mounted.
Paranormal? Hm, I'd say the husband's pretty skeptical. Intrigued but skeptical. Doesn't claim any paranormal powers of his own per se that I've heard of. He's happy to do the I Ching or Tarot with you, but he's not the kinda guy who does fortune telling or sits around with a Ouija board. (I'd say his leaning is more toward Synchronicity than the paranormal, if I were to make any fine distinctions.) Definitely he has an allergy to much "woo-woo."
Astrology? Outside of having his cast by Alice O. Howell (with a Jungian slant), I've never seen him devote time to it.
Mermaids? Only to entertain 6-yr-old ENFJ nieces swimming in the pool.
So I'm curious. If you posted a singles ad online, would it say "INTJ female, interested in poetry, paranormal, and.... mermaids?" (And might you include astrology, which I overlooked in my previous post?) Or what would it likely read instead? Help me out here, since you like responding to challenges. Otherwise I shall eternally think of you as "the INTJ on that board who's into paranormal and poetry." :-D -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 11:19 PMOh and as long as I'm asking.......
.....while I don't put much stock in the whole right-brain/left-brain thing (which is too segmented of a category for my tastes, details on request), would you claim overall to be more "left-brained" or "right-brained"?
Better yet, which would your family or friends probably say about you? ;-D
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 9:47 AMIf I posted a singles ad online (assuming I were single), I would list both my type (INTJ) and my sun sign (Capricorn), in that order. I'm interested in both, and I have always wondered if there is some correlation betwen the two. I can easily name the MBTI type and astrological sign of most everyone in my life. One of my closest friends is a fellow Capricorn and there are many similarities between us. Given that she is an ISFP, it is difficult to see why. A couple of weeks ago, I observed my friend's daughter (2 years old) and asked my friend if her daughter was a Scorpio (being an N, I couldn't even remember in which season her daughter was born, let alone the month.) She responded that she was indeed a Scorpio and rattled off characteristics of her behavior that fit the Scorpio description exactly. There are three Libras in my life: two are ENFPs and one is an ESFP. They're all incredibly indecisive, a primary Libra trait. (They're also all Ps, which explains it in MBTI.) However, if I have to choose, I choose MBTI because I observe more exceptions with astrology, and because I understand the theory of MBTI and therefore trust it more.
I agree with you about INTJs being interested in nearly everything. I have certainly found that to be true for myself (with the exception of sports, perhaps.) Instead of specifically poetry, I would be more likely to list literature in general and foreign languages as interests. I do not deny that INTJ s often share many common interests. My favorite TV show is Star Trek: TNG and I can't stand soap operas, for example. I would rather watch Spike TV than Lifetime. But I believe there could very well be an INTJ out there who likes soap operas (or Lifetime), and I would not say they were mistyped just because they do. Our interests come from a wide variety of experiences and contributors, including our MBTI type. My ESTJ father was very much into opera and, because I identified with him most growing up (vs. my INFP mother), I too love opera as an adult. If two F parents were to have an INTJ child, I would fully expect their child to have some strong, atypical INTJ interests. I would not say they were mistyped. I would say they are human.
In regards to left-brained vs. right-brained, I've never really felt I identified strongly with either. I see myself in both descriptions. According the the quiz I just took online, I am 60% left brained, 40% right brained. In another quiz I answered 13 questions left-brained, and 5 right-brained. So I guess I would have to say I'm more left-brained.
As for thinking of me as "the INTJ who's into paranormal and poetry"... you'd be missing out on a lot putting me into such a category, but it wouldn't necessarily bother me. To use an analogy from my favorite TV show: Jean-Luc Picard, captain of the Enterprise and INTJ, was very much "into" both the paranormal and poetry, as well as classical music and painting. His character was also incredibly analytical, rational, competent, and not a bit flaky. I can see the beauty of the inner workings of a computer and also see the beauty in a line of poetry. I can appreciate both Stephen King and Gabriel Garcia Marquez. I can root for the hero of an action movie or cry at a love story. What I prefer depends on my mood. And I don't allow my MBTI type to determine my interests, nor do I worry what others may think of them. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 10:55 AMYou're 25, right? How long have you been studying type now....?? Actually, scratch that. I'd be more interested in knowing how much you've studied Temperament. A good resource may be found at www.4Temperaments.com
You're right that it isn't good to "pigeonhole" anyone's type by their interests. Nevertheless, I maintain that an INTJ who puts a lot of stock in paranormal, mermaids, poetry, and astrology and looks "right-brained" deserves a hard second look for possibly being mis-typed. It doesn't add up very well, and certainly doesn't match with ANY other INTJs I know, and I've met my share. (For the record, I personally know some ESFPs and ENFPs who have mis-typed as INTJ and even INFJ for that matter. I helped a younger one sort that out only a few weeks ago.)
As far as linking astrology and type goes, here are some excerpts from my www.INFJ.com website regarding a few things Jung and Jungian Dr. John Beebe say on the topic. Enjoy!
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ASTROLOGY
A popular model many people rely on is Astrology. It's a very interesting model that has been around since the dawn of time. In fact, the earliest recorded attempts of humans to explain the differences among us are found in ancient Astrology. Astrologers claimed that the movement of the sun, moon, and planets would influence your behavior patterns or your fate. They used twelve constellations in the sky and four major groupings, symbolized by earth, air, fire, and water. It's particularly interesting because astrology claims that your personality is not formed by what's inside you, but is determined by something completely outside of you. Astrology said that the way the heavens were aligned when you were born determined your behavior. Thousands of years ago, stars were what they went by. So it's no surprise that Astrology persists today, and many people have tried to map personality type and Astrology together.
Unfortunately, there is NO correlation. None. Nada.
Here's what Dr. John Beebe says on the matter:
Astrology is the Ancient World's psychology. It is a psychology of the unconscious -- a proto-psychology, a pre-psychology. We can't correlate typology with astrology. Astrology speaks to an instinctive underpinning, an infrastructure to our psychology, but doesn't in itself explain consciousness.
And Jung says:
We are born at a given moment, in a given place and, like vintage years of wine, we have the qualities of the year and of the season of which we are born. Astrology does not lay claim to anything more.
I suspect Beebe or Jung himself would have found a parallel if there was one. After all, both of them have found Astrology to be very intriguing and worthwhile. So I figure if Dr. Jung and Dr. Beebe can't link the two concepts together, it's probably pointless for the rest of us to attempt it.
However, Astrology can be very interesting when used in conjunction with Jungian archetypes. It brings a whole new dimension to both models.
My husband and I had our horoscopes cast by a world-famous astrologer, Alice Howell, who is also a Jungian. Alice diagrams the astrological influences in one's chart and maps it to the Jungian archetypes that are probably influencing you. And she's eerily accurate. When I did my session with her, she nicknamed me "Crusader Rabbit" and "Sparkle Plenty" in order to describe some of the archetypal influences governing me. Alice has written an interesting book, "Jungian Symbolism in Astrology," that describes her methods. (She's written a number of wonderful books, so check them all out!) I highly recommend you schedule a session with her if you can -- she lives in the Berkshires in Massachusetts. (Her roof leaks, so it'd be doing her a favor to become a paying customer. Email me if you'd like the contact details.)
To summarize, while it isn't possible to link Astrology to personality type, it is an extremely worthwhile tool for getting at some psychological influences and exploring unusual facets of your personality. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 11:05 AMPostscript:
two other quick things. Type isn't so much about who you ARE as it is about what you DO. As a technicality, I *do* INFJ more than I *am* INFJ. It's a model about *preferences*, after all. Beebe calls these preferences "forms of consciousness" or "awareness." So INFJ and INTJ is a predisposition to certain forms of awareness. (The code can also be viewed as a "complex." You have an INTJ complex; I have an INFJ complex. Weird, hunh?)
Second thing is that "P" is not necessarily about "indecisive." That's a common misunderstanding of that scale. What J represents is someone who likes to have things *decided*, while P prefers to keep things open-ended. Both types CAN be very *decisive*; and it may be that both dislike making decisions. But at the end of the day, the J would rather have the thing decided, while the P would rather keep the thing undecided. (Am I splitting this hair too fine for you?) I usually prefer to avoid the J/P scale and work with the interaction styles model instead, because it's more encompassing.
The irony is that every IN_Js favorite process is a perceiving one, so they are considered "irrational" types, while every IN_Ps favorite process is a judging one, so they are considered "rational" types. That's always unsettling to contemplate, isn't it? It's also one of the reasons many of these types mis-typed themselves. As you write in your own post, you experience *yourself* as having a lot of "right-brain" aspects (which is why it's a better idea to ask people who know you instead to get their opinion ;-D). -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 11:18 AMCurious, is one's type "hard-wired"? If so, how do you reconcile this fact with your statement that one "does" his/her type? Am I missing something? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 4:00 PMFirst of all, which model of type are we going to work with? Because I flip around between four of them, and sometimes they get conflated with one another (which presents its own set of challenges).
Your temperament and interaction style patterns are hard-wired. And your preferences are seemingly hard-wired too, BUT the difference is that Jung's typology was always in its very inception and development intimately connected with individuation. It is a certain visibility of the individuation process, a view of individuation from the point of view of the psychology of consciousness.
So it's about the forms of consciousness you prefer to engage in. So "doing type" is about the forms of consciousness you are engaging at any given moment.
IN_Js are predisposed to engage (do) Ni. IS_Js are predisposed to engage (do) Si. Realizing, of course, that IN_Js *will* do Si, and IS_Js *will* do Ni -- it's just not what they do naturally (and probably not what they enjoy doing)
Where do you see a conflict between these two statements? (hard-wired vs. "doing" type) What am I missing? ;-) -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 4:24 PMI don't know anymore... I guess I "do" INTJ because I am hardwired to engage predominantly via Ni and support that with Te. Doesn't mean I can't do Fe or Si or Se or any of the other cognitive processes.
Still need to think it over...
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 4:27 PMI think some of what we're saying is the same thing, although it's a little hard to tell exactly what stand you're making, if you are. You've gone from saying
<<Even if you found an INTJ who *was* interested in poems, mermaids, and paranormal, I doubt they would *ever* admit it to anyone, certainly not to anyone via email.>>
to
<< I maintain that an INTJ who puts a lot of stock in paranormal, mermaids, poetry, and astrology and looks "right-brained" deserves a hard second look for possibly being mis-typed.>>
Being "interested" in something and "putting a lot of stock" into something are certainly two very different things. I agree with you that most INTJs would not put a lot of stock into the above mentioned things. I do not agree with you on your intitial statment that they could not be interested in those things. And by interested, I don't mean just for learning's sake, I mean having a strong attraction to those topics.
<<You're 25, right? How long have you been studying type now....??>>
Yes, I am 25. I have been studying temperament for only a couple of years, since leaving the teaching field. And if I were 50 with a PhD in typology, I would still say that persons of all types should feel free to be attracted to interests of all kinds and to not be embarrased to "admit it to anyone via e-mail."
Agree with you completely on the J/P issue, your point is well taken. I should have been more specific. The three perceivers I was speaking of (who all happen to be Libras) are not just indecisive, they are okay with being indecisive. It causes them no stress to leave their options open - they actually experience more stress when they are forced to make a decision. It is the opposite with me - I feel stressed until the decision is made. (although I do sometimes go and revisit the decision if I get new information.)
Your information on astrology and especially on Alice Howell's book was interesting to read and very much appreciated! I'm hoping to have time to read her book soon.
<<while it isn't possible to link Astrology to personality type>>
Who knows what's possible. I like to think we've only scratched the surface on what humans might know in the future (not that I'm necessarily arguing for a connection - I've seen as many exceptions as I have correlations, and there seems to be no current link.)
You seem to think I've been mistyped as an INTJ - I keep an open mind, I'm willing to accept that possibility. I'd love to hear more on why certain types are mistyped so frequently. As for your statement about some INTJs being ESFPs instead... wow... can't imagine how those two would be mistaken. How did that person get so misdiagnosed? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 5:10 PMNot much time to write this, so apologies in advance.
clarification: I don't see you as mis-typed, and haven't yet seen evidence that makes me question your choice of pattern -- not saying you is and not saying you isn't.
clarification #2: Wyatt set off alarm bells for me when he said he knew an INTJ who was "right-brained" with interests in poetry, paranormal, astrology, and mermaids. THAT is the person for whom I question about their type pattern.
Not that an INTJ can't spend time discussing virtually *anything* (which I was agreeing with, sorry it came off so vague) -- but to be *known* for that is what caught my attention. For me, INTJs often impact others as the quintessential "left-brain" type -- which I find IRONIC since their dominant process is about as right-brained as it gets! In fact, many INTJs battle with this image, and many look more ISTJ than ISTJ! And why not? since Te is highly valued in this culture and Ni is the least acceptable (and I've always wondered how on earth INTJs mediate a balance between a thoroughly irrational, flaky dominant process and such a culturally-sanctioned, logical, rational auxiliary. Yikes!)
I don't think I've been expressing my views particularly effective here, and for that I apologize -- it does look like mixed signals. I still maintain that it's unlikely any INTJ would be happily identified by an interest in "mermaids, paranormal, astrology, poetry." And that's the issue I'm questioning.
As far as ENFPs and ESFPs being so mis-typed? You have no idea. About a month ago I had an exchange that turned hostile with someone who claims to have INFP preference -- yet to all intents and purposes looks like ESFP from my side of the computer. Clue: she likes to go out dancing with her friends, served in the military, likes to write letters to politicians (an activist), AND can't be bothered to take a free temperament assessment. Another ESFP I met online (at least that's my guess) claims to have INFJ preferences, and says he got there by examining his "motives" to see what type he ideally would be. Sigh! I've met many ENFPs online, on the phone, and in person who are mis-typed (as well as many INFPs). At the last conference I presented at, I did a type facilitation with three persons who had all been assigned an "N" in their type code that came up "S" on my assessment -- and they *agreed* with the result. (I started to call myself "the S Catcher.")
I've written a lot about this problem and posted some of it on my websites -- don't have time to repeat it here, but you get the idea.
Let's just say there's a lotta type falsification goin' on... =8-O -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 6:32 PM>>For me, INTJs often impact others as the quintessential "left-brain" type -- which I find IRONIC since their dominant process is about as right-brained as it gets! In fact, many INTJs battle with this image, and many look more ISTJ than ISTJ! And why not? since Te is highly valued in this culture and Ni is the least acceptable (and I've always wondered how on earth INTJs mediate a balance between a thoroughly irrational, flaky dominant process and such a culturally-sanctioned, logical, rational auxiliary. Yikes!) <<
On the run, too, so this will be quick, but I wanted to illuminate something:
Extraverted Thinking for me is not a means to an end. It serves whatever goal I need it to serve - whether it's planning a relocation, organizing mountains of data for a research assignment, or trying to find objective reasons why I need to extricate myself from a doomed project because I can foresee disaster and there's nothing I can do to prevent it. Of course, simply saying that I predict doom based on whimsical hunches will get me fired or stared at. It's not so much as balancing (because that implies the two functions are in tension) as it is finding a way to make one serve the other. I begin a project - Te. I check to see if it will succeed or fail - Ni. I predict doom - Ni. I need to correct it or find reasons to justify bailing - Te.
Cheers! -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 7:17 PMerr I meant Te is *just* a means to an end. (this is what happens when you post on the run, kids...)
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 6:40 PM<<clarification #2: Wyatt set off alarm bells for me when he said he knew an INTJ who was "right-brained" with interests in poetry, paranormal, astrology, and mermaids. THAT is the person for whom I question about their type pattern. >>
Well, for one, *she* says she is an INTJ. I have struggled from talking with her whether she really is or not, although I must admit the logical stuff is there.. but her characteristics are much more flaky, and with much more emotion that she will ever care to admit. I would not doubt that she would be ENFP. I highly doubt she would be ESFP. She is WAY too abstract.
I try to take people at what they say they are, until I see overwhelming reason to believe they are something else. With her, I could never really make out beyond a shadow of a doubt what else she may be.
Now, I have interests in paranormal, poetry, astrology, and mermaids.
I am skeptical of paranormal stuff, although I haven't really ruled any of it out. Except the Easter Bunny.
I love certain poetry. It speaks to me, and I am able to speak with it in ways I cannot find a voice any other way.
I haven't really ruled out astrology as being false, although i see no logical reason it should be true. Except that there could possibly be things out there we don't really understand yet. Like the paranormal.
I love mermaids. Only because of the metaphors we have spoken with each other about using them. If It wasn't for those conversations, I don't think I would give a mouse's behind about them.
But, I still wonder about right-brained/left-brained INTJ's. I suspect that INTJ's are the most balanced of all the types, as a whole. Maybe i am wrong. maybe not. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 12:16 AMENFP was the vibe I got also...
I mean, never say never and all that -- just saying it set some alarm bells off. (By the way, I wonder whether you would be willing to substitute "mystical" for "flaky"?? It's somewhat less insulting to us Catalysts. ;-D)
I tend to ignore whatever type people tell me they are until I figure it out for myself, which is supposed to be my job anyway after all.... Particularly messy are the situations where somebody decides what their pattern is based on what pattern somebody else says they are. So... there's a woman I know whose ex-boyfriend was probably ISFP. But she thought he was INFP. So the new boyfriend supposedly has INFJ preferences, but probably has INFP preferences. So everybody thinks HE can't possibly have INFP preferences because he's so different from the old boyfriend. It's a comedy of errors all around.
One gal I know insisted her father had ENFP preferences, and she was unclear about her own preferences. With assistance from me, she came to decide that ENFJ fit her best (rather than the ENFP results she got from the online quiz) -- and, after describing their conflicts, she realized her dad had ESFP preferences instead. (By the way, she recently wrote that learning her best-fit type pattern probably "saved her life.")
I tend not to take anybody's word for somebody's type unless they went through the same qualifying program I did, and even then.....
When I first began practicing type 10 years ago, I found INTPs and ENTJs everywhere I looked. Later on, I realized nearly every INTP was ENTP instead, and every ENTJ was ESTP (ha!). I'm still challenged from time to time separating ISTPs from INTJs. As James Hillman says, "the types are not easy to spot."
You start building an "encyclopedia" for the types over time. It becomes the basis for your psychological literacy. I don't put my faith in an assessment that's 70% accurate on the best of days. If I can't figure out somebody's type without it, I don't deserve to practice my trade.
(Don't worry, I won't hold you to that standard. ;-D) -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 10:41 AM>> Wow, it sounds like you are in touch with your life purpose! What a wonderful gift. I wonder how you can bring this skill you have with music to your relationship challenge?
Okay, Vicki Jo, great question. I am unsure I have found a way to do this yet. I feel that usually the insecurities, mishaps, and thwarted attempts at real intimacy have fueled the fodder for the songs so far. :) I often wish life could be one giant song and we could just use figurative language to share our real hearts on issues and break out of the prose box that feels so confining! I digress. I suppose I could use the forthrightness employed in developing song lyrics in talking to Mr. INTJ about how it feels to be with him, around him. Just don't want to gush or overstate too much, but see that courage and some risk-taking is needed here in order to grow. (I still have not talked to him about *it*.)
>>What kind of "song" would your conversation be? A ballad? A lullaby?
At this point, it's a little like blues. I found out this weekend that Mr. INTJ had contact with Ms. Drunk Blonde and it stopped because she dropped the communication. He was, however, proud of himself for *putting himself out there* and was talking in a type of "I'm a player on the prowl" kind of way to our guy friends.
Blues dilemma
1) I can't tell if this is bravado and bluster, masking some insecurity or fear and/or some defense mechanism he's employing because he may have some conscious (or maybe subconscious) interest in me and as scared as I have been. A risky and perhaps far-fetched option, but does allow for some hope that if I do talk to him in early November (as is the current plan) that he may feel something.
or
2) Is it a face value situation? One where he doesn't see me as more than a platonic friend, no attraction to me, and I've been dreaming up all these *moments* I think we're having together over the course of the last year. One where he is *on the hunt* for a sumptuous barbie with some kind of strong S process. Oh, the bitterness and fear is talking here -- eck. :(
So hence we have our current blues tune. Do I dare have this talk with him to be direct about my feelings and inquire about his in a few weeks? Will I *lose him* if I don't say something soon because it's actually possible he hasn't figured it out by now and is *moving on* to *look around*? He also actually talked about people recommending match.com to him and considering it. I wanted to wave my hands in the air and say "hello, I'm free here, so into you, can you see me and the unicorn horn?"
>>What are the rhythms that this relationship honors?
Well, it's sure been a hell of a dance. I think he's pulling away and I must do so, too. Whether I do it forever to *save my skin* or I eventually come back in a few weeks to *have the talk*, we'll see. I'm thinking we're in some sort of high-stakes tango here.
Like I said, he is the only love interest I've ever had that I have *stood up to* and not just placated all the time. It seems as if our deepest, darkest issues are surfacing in the course of knowing one another, but maybe that can be a good thing and used so we can grow beyond their limitation and get some healing in those areas. I've had relationships where I can conveniently avoid such challenges, but not in knowing this guy. Is this a good thing?
There is a definite rhythm of connecting, something deep happening, either a moment of what my Ne says would mutual attraction or some age old subconscious issue being drugged up, and then space. Usually at least a week or maybe two. It's in this space where I take the issue to the higher power that I call God, pray and meditate, journal like crazy and invest in my key relationships. I usually end up getting stressed, worried, then breaking down and giving it all back to God and *suprise*, here Mr. INTJ comes again and we reconnect.
Is it possible there still could be something going on in terms of unspoken mutual feelings if he's exploring possibilities with Ms. Drunk Blonde or pondering match.com? I wonder what you think . . .
What I'm going to do is dig deep and go away this weekend. I'm off to the mountains to see the fall color and my girlfriend (platonic :) ) is coming with me. I have no idea what is going on -- I know what I dream of and hope for -- but I am so far *off the map* I don't really know which end is coming or going . . . :) Help! -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 2:15 PMI will lead my remarks with *** to separate from the rest.
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
>> Wow, it sounds like you are in touch with your life purpose! What a wonderful gift. I wonder how you can bring this skill you have with music to your relationship challenge?
Okay, Vicki Jo, great question.
*** You just made my heart go pitter-patter! Every life coach strives to ask great questions. ;-D
I am unsure I have found a way to do this yet. I feel that usually the insecurities, mishaps, and thwarted attempts at real intimacy have fueled the fodder for the songs so far. :) I often wish life could be one giant song and we could just use figurative language to share our real hearts on issues and break out of the prose box that feels so confining! I digress. I suppose I could use the forthrightness employed in developing song lyrics in talking to Mr. INTJ about how it feels to be with him, around him. Just don't want to gush or overstate too much, but see that courage and some risk-taking is needed here in order to grow. (I still have not talked to him about *it*.)
*** Splash! We just landed right in a coaching conversation! And.... hmmm... I notice I'm on a public board dedicated to INTJs and type. So that will take some fancy dancing to hold this space sacred to all. Let's see how we do.
*** At minimum, it does sound like you may have gotten some insights from bringing the perspective of music to this issue! How is this relationship like a musical challenge, and what skills might you bring to bear on it?
>>What kind of "song" would your conversation be? A ballad? A lullaby?
At this point, it's a little like blues. I found out this weekend that Mr. INTJ had contact with Ms. Drunk Blonde and it stopped because she dropped the communication. He was, however, proud of himself for *putting himself out there* and was talking in a type of "I'm a player on the prowl" kind of way to our guy friends.
*** Great metaphor. Sorry it's the blues. :-(
Blues dilemma
1) I can't tell if this is bravado and bluster, masking some insecurity or fear and/or some defense mechanism he's employing because he may have some conscious (or maybe subconscious) interest in me and as scared as I have been. A risky and perhaps far-fetched option, but does allow for some hope that if I do talk to him in early November (as is the current plan) that he may feel something.
or
2) Is it a face value situation? One where he doesn't see me as more than a platonic friend, no attraction to me, and I've been dreaming up all these *moments* I think we're having together over the course of the last year. One where he is *on the hunt* for a sumptuous barbie with some kind of strong S process. Oh, the bitterness and fear is talking here -- eck. :(
So hence we have our current blues tune. Do I dare have this talk with him to be direct about my feelings and inquire about his in a few weeks? Will I *lose him* if I don't say something soon because it's actually possible he hasn't figured it out by now and is *moving on* to *look around*? He also actually talked about people recommending match.com to him and considering it. I wanted to wave my hands in the air and say "hello, I'm free here, so into you, can you see me and the unicorn horn?"
*** I'm seeing a pinball banging around in a pinball machine, crashing into various bells and whistles and setting off alarms. I notice how you're all over the place, trying to consider all the possibilities, second-guess all the possible outcomes.
*** Must be driving you crazy, hunh....? Egggssss-zausting!
*** Were we coaching, I would have you do my balance exercise. It looks like this to do it solo: Take out a sheet of paper and write down the major question you are wrestling with. Is it "why aren't we together yet?"??
*** Next, identify major different possible answers. Here is how it might look --- please revise appropriately. (I will not asterisk the following section, so stay with me):
1) he is stupid -- an ignorant, clueless dolt.
2) he is madly in love with me and can't show it
3) he is only interested in sex (with blondes)
4) he doesn't even realize I'm interested
5) he does realize I'm interested and doesn't know how to tell me he is NOT
6) if I bide my time he'll come around
7) he only wants to ever be friends and I may as well get used to it
8) if I can't have him I'll die
............what have I left out??
9) yours goes here
10) yours goes here
*** So far so good??
*** Now, here's your homework. Go through each of these possibilities and consider them for yourself. For instance, 1) he is stupid.
How does it feel to think of him as stupid? Do I want to be with a stupid person? What would a relationship with a stupid person be like? In your mind, fully commit to this viewpoint and notice what comes up for you if you were to live your life through this perspective. (Especially notice how it feels in your body.) Make some salient notes or scores about how you react to this experience.
*** Do it again for EVERY ITEM you have listed. And Don't Mix Them Up. Don't mix up "stupid" with "I will die." Shake off each perspective before you enter the next one. If you left one out, add it to the list and explore it completely when you get there.
*** I know that sounds like a lot of hard work, but hey -- you're doing it already, just inside a pinball machine and without being organized and deliberate about it. Aren't you?? (You started it with all the numbers up above!) So this is formalizing a structure for doing it, instead of the freestyle pinball machine way.
*** After you've fully owned and tried on every one of the items, choose the possibility that felt best to you. The one that made you feel really good, positive, hopeful, upbeat, in your own integrity. (It's okay to take two or three possibilities and slice and dice them together until you get the best possible possibility. (Are you following me?)
*** THEN..... (~drumroll please~) STAND IN THAT POSSIBILITY. Choose it consciously. (For the sake of this exercise, I will pretend you have chosen #1, that he is stupid.)
*** NOW... the next step.
*** Write down three things you will have to say YES to in order to REMAIN in this perspective. I.e.,
1) I will say "yes" my having a high IQ and wanting relationships that honor that
2) I will say "yes" to joining Mensa
3) I will say "yes" to meeting men who are smart
*** NOW... the next step
*** Write down three things you will have to say NO to in order to REMAIN in this perspective. I.e.,
1) I will say "no" to dating stupid men
2) I will say "no" to feeling stupid
3) I will say "no" to pretending to be stupid
*** (I hope you're following this...)
*** NOW, the next step.
*** Put a pencil on the floor. This is a line. At this moment, you are on the "pinball" side of the line, the side that isn't serving you. It's making you crazy -- you're all over the place, you can't think straight.
*** On this side of the line, you are about to undergo a ritual. Play music, put on an outfit to honor the occasion, set out some cheese and wine, light a candle, do whatever make it feel like a ritual to you. Now, hold up your paper and read aloud the perspective you are about to step into. Read aloud the three things you will say *yes" to. Read aloud the three things you will say "no" to. Then, when you are ready (and only when you are ready), STEP OVER THE LINE INTO THIS PERSPECTIVE.
*** Now, celebrate. You deserve it! You worked hard.
*** (If you should backslide, and slip over the line back into pinball land, just renew your vow. Step over the line again in the same way if you need to.)
>>What are the rhythms that this relationship honors?
Well, it's sure been a hell of a dance. I think he's pulling away and I must do so, too. Whether I do it forever to *save my skin* or I eventually come back in a few weeks to *have the talk*, we'll see. I'm thinking we're in some sort of high-stakes tango here.
*** Now let's honor how this is an INTJ board devoted to type.
*** I'm noticing the part you mention about "pulling away," so I want to make the observation that both of you experience extraverted Feeling as a shadow process. Extraverted Feeling is about "connecting," so I'm noticing the challenge for both of you around "connecting." Does that sound right?
*** And I'm curious how often that struggle shows up for you. Is there a "pattern" to this struggle? If so, what are the precedents? What happens when this challenge arises? What ALWAYS happens when you are in this space? (Dya follow my drift?)
Like I said, he is the only love interest I've ever had that I have *stood up to* and not just placated all the time. It seems as if our deepest, darkest issues are surfacing in the course of knowing one another, but maybe that can be a good thing and used so we can grow beyond their limitation and get some healing in those areas. I've had relationships where I can conveniently avoid such challenges, but not in knowing this guy. Is this a good thing?
*** This is a GREAT thing. Other people are always *mirrors* for us, so it's fabulous to explore who you are through the context of this relationship.
*** Following is an excerpt from an article that says something about this:
"You may be irresistibly and mysteriously drawn towards this person; you may be filled with judgments, even hatred, towards this person; or you may feel both the attraction and the judgment simultaneously. You might even marry this person because of the attraction and then spend your life alternating between judgment and attraction/ love..
The basic teaching in all this is very simple. Whenever you feel a judgment towards another person, pay attention to the particular trait or traits that you are judging. If you feel that someone is untrustworthy and every time you think of him or her you get angry, ask yourself what the actual personality qualities are that push your buttons. You might find that your friend is selfish and self-serving and always puts himself first. It these are the traits that you resent then you have a remarkable gift coming because you are being given the opportunity of learning about selves that you have that are unconscious or disowned. What a gift this can be to you!..
Remember too that judgment and discernment are not the same thing. You may make a discernment about someone without having a judgment. Judgments are always more visceral. You feel them in your body whereas discernments tend to be more objective.
Most people like to think that they are discerning rather than judgmental because judgments seem to be a bad thing to have. This prejudice against judgments is there because most of us haven’t learned yet how to use them creatively, how to make friends with them, and how to learn from them about our many disowned selves.
So, pay attention to your judgments and use them constructively. Welcome to the world of creative judgment.
****************************************************************End Excerpt
*** What dya think of that? What does it bring up for you in terms of this challenge you are confronting?
There is a definite rhythm of connecting, something deep happening, either a moment of what my Ne says would mutual attraction or some age old subconscious issue being drugged up, and then space. Usually at least a week or maybe two. It's in this space where I take the issue to the higher power that I call God, pray and meditate, journal like crazy and invest in my key relationships. I usually end up getting stressed, worried, then breaking down and giving it all back to God and *suprise*, here Mr. INTJ comes again and we reconnect.
*** It sounds like he is a wonderful TEACHER for you. Thank God (literally) for this gift!
Is it possible there still could be something going on in terms of unspoken mutual feelings if he's exploring possibilities with Ms. Drunk Blonde or pondering match.com? I wonder what you think . . .
*** What I know about the IN_J pattern is that extraverted Sensing is the anima/animus process. We tend to project this out into the world and then fall in love with the object that mirrors it back to us. It might be about looks (blonde), it might be about body (boobs, ass, legs), it might be about power (Gloria Allred?), it might be about money (Paris?) -- whatever it is, he may be in the space where his "personal work" is about exploring that side of himself. Many many many people marry their anima or animus, so this is a very common thing.
*** The stupid thing to do is to take that personally and make it about YOU. The foolish thing to do is to think that if he were to reject you that is about rejecting YOU -- when in fact he is merely rejecting a certain opportunity to work on a particular part of himself. And he may not be ready to do that right now. The Universe has a different path in mind for him. Truthfully, it isn't about you at all.
*** Over here, with my own type pattern and all, I think it's worthwhile to find that out asap so you can get in or get out -- but for an ENFP it might be exquisite torture to keep the question open-ended! It might be delightful keeping the question UNanswered for as long as possible! It can be thrilling and energizing to play with the idea, much as a cat might play with catnip. I don't know you, so I can't really say... Certainly I'm not inclined to spoil your fun!
*** The only piece that I'm curious about is where the insecurity shows up. Using type, I'm wondering whether to "map" that to introverted iNtuiting...? Since that function is a shadow process for you, I'm wondering whether that is showing up as a voice of so-called "inner knowing" that says, "I *know* I'm not good enough"; "I *know* I'm not pretty enough"; "I *know* he'll never be interested in me," or whatever insecure remarks are being hurled at you from within.
*** That's the place where I'm concerned you might be hitting/hurting yourself.
*** So to recap, we've covered a lot of type ground. Let's map it all onto type.
*** In the balance exercise, where you explore each of the viewpoints you are probably exploring various "consciousnesses." And you are exploring them through a structured Ti framework using a lens of Ne possibilities, which should be a cakewalk for you. Then you used some form of Judging to choose one (possibly Fi). Then there was a little bit of extraverted Thinking in coming up with 3 yesses and 3 nos, then putting the pencil on the floor and all that. There was some "segmenting."
*** In terms of what's getting triggered for you, we looked at his anima process a bit, we glanced at your common shadow process of extraverted Feeling, and then I wondered about your first shadow process, introverted iNtuiting. Yesterday I think we mentioned the presence of extraverted Sensing in both your patterns, so I think the only shadow process we haven't explored with you yet is introverted Thinking. (So I wonder how introverted Thinking might be showing up in this challenge for you? ;-D)
*** WHEW! It's been a wild trip.
What I'm going to do is dig deep and go away this weekend. I'm off to the mountains to see the fall color and my girlfriend (platonic :) ) is coming with me.
*** What processes is that honoring? (It sounds heavenly and I'm jealous, by the way. The "fall color" we're getting in Los Angeles is the color of wildfires. They came within about 50 feet of my sister's house, yikes!)
*** Here's a site I designed a few years ago -- it's an homage to fall leaves: www.domni.com/LLL/
*** The man is my INTJ husband, in case you've never seen one "in the wild." ;-)
*** Have your girlfriend help you do the balance activity if you want. I know how stimulating it can be for you to brainstorm *with* somebody, so that might make it a little more fun.
I have no idea what is going on -- I know what I dream of and hope for -- but I am so far *off the map* I don't really know which end is coming or going . . . :) Help!
*** How was this for you? Did you find it helpful? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 6:18 AMHi Vicki Jo,
Okay, wow, thank you so much for investing the time and energy into your reply. I am reflecting on all that you asked. To answer your last question, it was very, very helpful.
I will post a reply soon when I can coalesce my thoughts. Stay tuned. :) -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 11:17 AMGreat! I'll be waiting. In the meantime, I wonder if you might share how you determined your type code? ;-) -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 11:35 AMtest after test comes out ENFP. In reading in depth 4 letter type description, I wholeheartedly agree with the profile fitting the way I live my life. I'm learning more about the processes, but those jibe well, too. Everything from common interests, abilities, career paths, life choices, relationship dynamics, values, etc. fits in what I've seen described as ENFP traits. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 11:39 AMHi Vicki Jo and all,
Okay, I will respond to your post in 7 sections so you can see some Te on parade. :) I suppose I share these type of things you’ll read in the hopes that as a thread about INTJs and ENFPs pairing up together, I may verbalize something common to the processes of an ENFP who is nuts about the formidable INTJ. :) You are all getting *behind the curtain* and I sincerely hope this is beneficial to those who may read this.
VJ, your remarks are marked with >>> for old ones, and *** for newer ones
My old remarks are marked with ## # and my new responses are marked with nothing.
Section 1 -- Intro
>> Wow, it sounds like you are in touch with your life purpose! What a wonderful gift. I wonder how you can bring this skill you have with music to your relationship challenge?
### I am unsure I have found a way to do this yet. I feel that usually the insecurities, mishaps, and thwarted attempts at real intimacy have fueled the fodder for the songs so far. :) I often wish life could be one giant song and we could just use figurative language to share our real hearts on issues and break out of the prose box that feels so confining! I digress. I suppose I could use the forthrightness employed in developing song lyrics in talking to Mr. INTJ about how it feels to be with him, around him. Just don't want to gush or overstate too much, but see that courage and some risk-taking is needed here in order to grow. (I still have not talked to him about *it*.)
*** At minimum, it does sound like you may have gotten some insights from bringing the perspective of music to this issue! How is this relationship like a musical challenge, and what skills might you bring to bear on it?
The relationship is like a musical challenge in that it’s a duet, but it’s not all pre-rehearsed or planned out. There is a significant, dynamic element of spontaneous interplay, jamming together, if you will. I can know parts I intend to play ahead of time, types of parts I would be good at and could *show off*, but I don’t know all of what he is going to play. I can think about styles he likes, things I’ve seen him be good at playing (it’s ironic – he’s a musician, too), but I will play off of him and he will play off of me in the moment, too. There will be times he leads and times that I do. I think to date, it’s usually me who requests that we get together to play, and me that suggests most of the songs to play together, but I look for ways to hand the baton to him so he can play leads in those songs, that we can take turns and *collaborate.* Ooh, I love that word. And then I notice that after awhile, he has ideas of songs he wants us to do, and I hang back and let him initiate that. I purposely hesitate on leading vocals, allowing for space and delays, so he can lead the song and decide whether we go back and do another verse or do the chorus again.
This is funny, because back in the spring, we actually got to do this together literally at church. And while I meant it figuratively up above, it actually happened this way in real life. It was a microcosm of the dynamic between us. I asked him to play with me, had a certain # of preset ideas to bring to the set, and he came with a few of his own songs. So I got my dose of collaborating (we sang most songs together and he played guitar on most) and then we each got to do some of our own. When I sang on my own and played guitar, he played guitar leads over me. He got to do 2 songs completely on his own, which I would assume pleased his little INTJ self.
And I left the experience thinking I just got to live out my dream for 3 hours. I want to do music with my mate someday. I don’t think I realized how powerful that dream was until I was standing in it. And I thought, couldn’t we just do this forever? I only knew ahead of time (or correctly predicted) about 15% of what would occur in working with him. The rest of it, like all our conversations, took on a life of it’s own as we worked together, surprising both of us, I think.
*** I'm seeing a pinball banging around in a pinball machine, crashing into various bells and whistles and setting off alarms. I notice how you're all over the place, trying to consider all the possibilities, second-guess all the possible outcomes.
Yes, this is my hyper-analysis mode that my friends all warn me about. It’s my effort to get more control over unknowns so I can *feel* safer and like rejection is less of a risk. I’m trying to calculate my risk in talking to him directly about feelings . . .
______________________________________________________________________
Section 2 -- The Balance Exercise I will attempt to do in the mountains with my friend
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Section 3 – The Dynamic of Pulling Away – Problems with Connecting?
>>What are the rhythms that this relationship honors?
#### Well, it's sure been a hell of a dance. I think he's pulling away and I must do so, too. Whether I do it forever to *save my skin* or I eventually come back in a few weeks to *have the talk*, we'll see. I'm thinking we're in some sort of high-stakes tango here.
*** Now let's honor how this is an INTJ board devoted to type.
*** I'm noticing the part you mention about "pulling away," so I want to make the observation that both of you experience extraverted Feeling as a shadow process. Extraverted Feeling is about "connecting," so I'm noticing the challenge for both of you around "connecting." Does that sound right?
Yes. In terms of past experience, both of us have some fun family of origin issues and hurtful past relationship experience. *Cue the trust issues.* In a way, I think that’s why things have gone the way of the “be-friends-first” route. We both like our freedom and want to honor boundaries and space. I don’t like the idea of controlling anybody or being controlled and I’m sure neither does he. And since I don’t know how he *feels* about me, I don’t know how much or how often I should reach out. And he just doesn’t really reach out, but will respond well if I do.
*** And I'm curious how often that struggle shows up for you. Is there a "pattern" to this struggle? If so, what are the precedents? What happens when this challenge arises? What ALWAYS happens when you are in this space? (Dya follow my drift?)
Yes, there is a pattern. I pull away when I sense we’ve had a meaningful interaction of some kind because that’s my attempt to give an INTJ space who has told me he needs a lot of space. I definitely also do it when the fear comes up that I may be “too much” in my personality, “too disclosing” in my sharing, or if he says anything about interest in other women. If the fear of rejection wire in me gets tripped, then I pull away. I can then also become mistrustful of him inside, like he won’t care as much for me as I care for him, that he’ll lose interest and eventually going after someone else with more Se, or that he fantasizes about ending up alone b/c he’s afraid he doesn’t have enough patience to deal with a mate (now, this is when he’s gloomy on the subject). Now, the thing I wonder are these his “tried and true” statements crafted to *push people away?*
The upshot is, I pull away when I think he wants me to, when I think I may get hurt (rejection/protect yourself stuff). I start getting pessimistic about the chance he could return my feelings. What *always* happens is I retreat inside myself to my fantasy world, listen to my favorite, fantastical music about hopes and dreams and love, and reconnect with my friends who by and large have a habit of *getting me* and encouraging me. And I pray a lot to turn the whole thing over to God. :)
Sections 4 - 7 to come soon -- thanks again :) -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 12:15 PMSection 4 -- Article on Creative Judgment
*** Following is an excerpt from an article that says something about this:
"You may be irresistibly and mysteriously drawn towards this person; you may be filled with judgments, even hatred, towards this person; or you may feel both the attraction and the judgment simultaneously. You might even marry this person because of the attraction and then spend your life alternating between judgment and attraction/ love..
The basic teaching in all this is very simple. Whenever you feel a judgment towards another person, pay attention to the particular trait or traits that you are judging. If you feel that someone is untrustworthy and every time you think of him or her you get angry, ask yourself what the actual personality qualities are that push your buttons. You might find that your friend is selfish and self-serving and always puts himself first. It these are the traits that you resent then you have a remarkable gift coming because you are being given the opportunity of learning about selves that you have that are unconscious or disowned. What a gift this can be to you!..
*** What dya think of that? What does it bring up for you in terms of this challenge you are confronting?
Something like this is happening part of the time. I react to shallowness, selfishness, narrowness, and/or rigidity that I perceive in him sometimes. But I really think the world of him, so it is paradoxical and confusing. I don't feeling judgement of him. I bet I have those traits in myself and I'm just seeing the mirror . . .
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Section 5 – His Anima/Animus Process (Se) and My Insecurity
#### Is it possible there still could be something going on in terms of unspoken mutual feelings if he's exploring possibilities with Ms. Drunk Blonde or pondering match.com? I wonder what you think . . .
*** What I know about the IN_J pattern is that extraverted Sensing is the anima/animus process. We tend to project this out into the world and then fall in love with the object that mirrors it back to us. It might be about looks (blonde), it might be about body (boobs, ass, legs), it might be about power (Gloria Allred?), it might be about money (Paris?) -- whatever it is, he may be in the space where his "personal work" is about exploring that side of himself. Many many many people marry their anima or animus, so this is a very common thing.
Well, my friends tell me I am good looking, which is encouraging in this area, I suppose. It may be problematic that I'm not as comfortable being really physical with him with no real committment. I'm not sure. I lack insight into whether he finds me attractive. I suppose the talk can help with this if we go to that subject (attraction). All this to say, I wonder if I could appeal to his anima/animus process or I just won't . . .
*** The stupid thing to do is to take that personally and make it about YOU. The foolish thing to do is to think that if he were to reject you that is about rejecting YOU -- when in fact he is merely rejecting a certain opportunity to work on a particular part of himself. And he may not be ready to do that right now. The Universe has a different path in mind for him. Truthfully, it isn't about you at all.
I wish I could reach such a place of objectivity! :) I am, alas, smitten and still hoping it can work out somehow . . .
*** Over here, with my own type pattern and all, I think it's worthwhile to find that out asap so you can get in or get out -- but for an ENFP it might be exquisite torture to keep the question open-ended! It might be delightful keeping the question UNanswered for as long as possible! It can be thrilling and energizing to play with the idea, much as a cat might play with catnip.
Well, not knowing is only better than knowing what I don't want to know if my feelings are one-sided. :( I don't like the torture. I much prefer the happily-ever-after. :) That's why I'm willing to finally go there, so we can see if it is something real between us and not just an idea in my head and heart! :)
*** The only piece that I'm curious about is where the insecurity shows up. Using type, I'm wondering whether to "map" that to introverted iNtuiting...? Since that function is a shadow process for you, I'm wondering whether that is showing up as a voice of so-called "inner knowing" that says, "I *know* I'm not good enough" --
heard the above message from dad (and mom and stepmom at times) and internalized it
*** "I *know* I'm not pretty enough";
heard this one back in the day on the playground and in middle school -- internalized it -- now feel better but feel like the ugly duckling phenomenon -- still battle it
feel this one the worst in light of the Se appeal of Ms. Drunk Blonde. Biggest fear is that I won't be attractive enough . . .
*** "I *know* he'll never be interested in me,"
yes, this one is the voice that fuels my pulling away at times. it's very closely linked to the fear listed just above this.
Tie in to old VJ post (2 posts earlier)
>>>> Oh my. You were raised by wolves. You have probably struggled with "type falsification" all your life. What I mean by that is that it probably wasn't "safe" to have your type preferences in your family (although your dad probably "gets you" better than anybody, since he is your "inverse type"). When one's type preferences are not honored in one's family of origin, it can be a struggle to get validated for one's innate gifts. So I'm not at all surprised you struggle with feeling insecure.
Yes, so to add to the mix, introverted intuition is an internalizing of old messages for the non-validating 'rents. Oh, the joys of baggage. :) And Mr. INTJ has the joy of seeing me deal with its aftermath. I try to not fall to pieces over this stuff. I think I'm just seeing some of it get stirred up in falling for Mr. INTJ.
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 12:33 PMSection 6 -- Summary
*** In terms of what's getting triggered for you, we looked at his anima process a bit, we glanced at your common shadow process of extraverted Feeling, and then I wondered about your first shadow process, introverted iNtuiting. Yesterday I think we mentioned the presence of extraverted Sensing in both your patterns, so I think the only shadow process we haven't explored with you yet is introverted Thinking. (So I wonder how introverted Thinking might be showing up in this challenge for you? ;-D)
I am using introverted thinking in writing all of this! I don't know for him. I see it in the moments I'm hyper analyziing, trying to weigh options and decide what to do.
*** WHEW! It's been a wild trip.
Yes indeed! I can't believe people actually want to know all this about me! Well, maybe they don't and it's just being put *out there* anyway. :P
Section 7 -- Outro
#### What I'm going to do is dig deep and go away this weekend. I'm off to the mountains to see the fall color and my girlfriend (platonic :) ) is coming with me.
*** What processes is that honoring? (It sounds heavenly and I'm jealous, by the way. The "fall color" we're getting in Los Angeles is the color of wildfires. They came within about 50 feet of my sister's house, yikes!)
My guess is Ne and Fi, the ole' faithfuls. I *love* the beauty of nature and the fall. Beauty is essential to me and very comforting in times of trouble. I *value* spontaneous trips like this, reflecting in all the natural beauty, plan to have an outdoor picnic, remember that this is who I am and what I love to do. Keeps me grounded and solid in my own identity. And it will be a shared experience with my friend, making it more precious!
*** Here's a site I designed a few years ago -- it's an homage to fall leaves: www.domni.com/LLL/
Beautiful site!!!! So romantic!!! *sigh*
*** The man is my INTJ husband, in case you've never seen one "in the wild." ;-)
I think they are all wild!!!! :)
*** Have your girlfriend help you do the balance activity if you want. I know how stimulating it can be for you to brainstorm *with* somebody, so that might make it a little more fun.
That's the plan! I feel I should share that my friend who's joining me is an INFJ. I love you guys, too! :)
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 2:36 PMBoy, you're doing a lot of work! I'm impressed. I wonder whether it would be alright with you if I ask whether you've ever considered the code ENFJ as a possibility? Have you looked at those descriptions ever?
We can just call it "due diligence" if you like. I have a girlfriend with ENFJ preferences who invariably gets ENFP results on the MBTI -- and she's a qualified practitioner. The gal I mentioned previously who said it "saved her life" to find her type code likewise thought she had ENFP preferences and discovered her ENFJ true self.
If you've lived with the ENFP code for a long time and really identify with it, then I apologize. If you simply don't have access to any ENFJ "portraits," there's one at
www.bestfittype.com/enfj.html
Is it okay with you if we take a little diversion and just explore that question briefly?? Certainly I don't want to offend you by asking. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 4:07 PMYou can ask, sure. I do not relate to ENFJ preferences at all. My ex-boyfriend was an ENFJ. I have 2 good ENFJ friends. I don't relate to being so organized (my house, car, desk are a total mess), so structured and black and white. And most of all, i don't relate to the popularity and social climbing stuff. Ugh. My ex used to come across so fake sometimes and was always trying to people please. I love starting things and hate finishing them most times. I just grew up around so many J's I got good at faking it and imitating some of their ways. I guess it helps with school, but for example, right now, I am pushing right up against a huge deadline applying for job. But I'm procrastinating, playing on tribe, and pretty overwhelmed with having 100 irons in the fire right now. Plus, I'm writing on an INTJ list, so I think I'm trying to communicate in more organized way, if I can. I just struggle giving myself the permission to be my real free spirited self sometimes. I think I'm stressed about what could go wrong with Mr. INTJ, so I'm going to the mountains to get some of the carefree playfullness back. Does this help?
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 4:21 PMVicki Jo,
I'm curious, what triggers in you the suspicion that someone might not be the type they claim to be (i'm asking generally, not in reference to anyone on this thread)? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 6:57 PMI just felt compelled to post to this thread that I hope I'm not monopolizing with this indepth discussion of what's going on in my situation. Not that you need my permission, but please feel free to post comments on it or just talk about other things we've all been discussing on this thread. I don't want to be a *conversation killer*. :) I'm just a guest in INTJ - land here. :) -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 7:17 PM>>I just felt compelled to post to this thread that I hope I'm not monopolizing with this indepth discussion of what's going on in my situation. Not that you need my permission, but please feel free to post comments on it or just talk about other things we've all been discussing on this thread. I don't want to be a *conversation killer*. :) I'm just a guest in INTJ - land here. :) <<
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm learning a lot from your exchange with Vicki Jo, so please carry on with confidence! Besides, I think the conversation has evolved many times over from the original post, which is to say that wherever you wanna take it is fine by me :) (not to imply that I claim any ownership over this thread - all are welcome and all have an equal claim here)
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 7:34 PMNo you're not. you're one of us. This thread is dedicated to your type, too. Only, there isn't very many of your type posting. So, POST AWAY!!!
Besides, this one is so rich I am sure many of us will be adding comments for months to come. And all of the new people that come in and out. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 7:26 PMyeah, right, wyatt. no one's even talking anymore. is this the *sound of internal
processing?* you can, no wait, yes. you can hear a pin drop . . . -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 8:27 PMlol... I thought only INTJ's were capable of the *dark side*
Give it time. I haven't even said all I want to, yet. I am trying desperately to get a paper written, practice my conference presentation that sums it up, and work on a magnetics levitation project for the Baltimore County schools before I start on a wind power project. In between, I am helping a young woman work on some of her issues in the evening, and somewhere in between I have to work.
I will post more soon. i am sure others will, too. These things go on for months.
Besides, i don't know if you noticed that tribe has been down quite a bit, lately.
Give it time. We built it. They will come.
:oP -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 9:05 PM>>Besides, i don't know if you noticed that tribe has been down quite a bit, lately.<<
Is this like how Friendster lost a lot of ground to Facebook virtually overnight? Is there a new forum site in town?
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 2:26 PM<<yeah, right, wyatt. no one's even talking anymore. is this the *sound of internal
processing?* you can, no wait, yes. you can hear a pin drop . . . >>
And, oh yeah, ANYthing on an INTJ group where the title starts, "Analysis of..." is SURE to get a lot of postings... r21left titled it right, how do you thing he got so many postings sooooooo fast!!!??? :o\
Lol!!!
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 7:25 PMI become suspicious about a type pattern based on one of two things: either iNtuition throws something up on the beach for me to look at, OR something doesn't seem to be adding up right. Since I work with four different models and a decade of experience, I'm pulling reference data from a whole lot of different sources, and matching what I notice to the frameworks. (And let me say upfront that typing somebody via their emails is *not* recommended.)
Sometimes the interaction style doesn't match, sometimes the individual seems to be engaging a process that seems contrary, sometimes they are honoring something counter to their Temperament values (for instance, someone who values membership & belonging over knowledge and self-mastery might be a mis-typed Stabilizer).
The most obvious disconnects show up when you ask something like, "What are some examples for how you use your dominant process in a valiant way, and have since childhood?" If they scratch their heads and can't think of an answer, that's a clue something doesn't add up somewhere (assuming they know how to define that process of course). OR if you ask them to finish the sentence stem, "I am ___xxx____," in six different ways, that often demonstrates their dominant process. (It's best if that comes from the heart, rather than based on what they've read about their type somewhere, of course.)
If what they claim doesn't match the definition of the process that's in their type code, something's wrong. For ENFP vs. ENFJ I would be looking for something that says "I am a fantastic brainstormer, and I live for possibilities" versus "I love connecting with people and coaching them toward happiness" (as merely one example).
Essentially, every type facilitator develops their own method over time -- there's no set formula. At the end of the day, the type pattern either matches reality or it doesn't. So I'm always using a reality check. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 10:22 PMSorry, guys.. I didn't disappear - I've just been busy! But I'm really enjoying all of the postings...
Vicky, your comments about mistype seem to often include a J/P mixup... it got me thinking a bit about an internal question I've had for a while - regarding the ways we all approach making decisions. I have noted that with some types, especially ESTJs in particular, people feel the need to make a decision so fast that they don't even stop to consider the alternatives necessary for making good decisions. For example, I've known ESTJs in particular to make huge buying decisions on the spur of the moment, with little or no research done whatsoever, based often just on the recommendation of a salesperson, and an intense need to make the decision NOW!
When I compare that with the way that INTJs (at least, me - I'll let others speak for themselves) often make decisions, researching, comparing and weighing the consequences of different choices, and then making a final decision they can be confident of - well, it's enough to make us look like perceivers by contrast, isn't it? Certainly I feel compelled to make decisions quickly to reduce stress, but not by grasping at random straws. If there is no such thing as a gradient for J/P, or a so-called "strong" J or "strong" P, what do you think accounts for the huge differences in the methods used for making decisions and the relative time it takes to make them?
I'm wondering if it has to do with Ni vs. Si, but not sure. Anyone have a better theory? -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 11:08 PMHi Kristin,
I hadn't heard that about ESTJs. Your Ni-Si comparison makes sense, as the Ni would take into account the long term interest while the Si would emphasize present need. But the ESTJ's impulsiveness seems irrational, and would not be expected of someone with a dominant Te. Maybe self-image has something to do with it, in that an ESTJ would want to appear as a shoot-from-the-hip, bold decision-maker - an image that is valued in this country?
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 2:34 AMHey Kristin,
Glad to have you back!
Uh oh, I feel a rant coming on! ~WARNING: long post ahead (get a beverage)~
Yes, it's true that many mis-types do include a J/P mix-up or an I/E mix-up, though not always. After all, my ISFP brother-in-law got ENFJ results on his assessment. :-/
I credit it to the construction of the MBTI, which sorts people into those four discrete categories of letters and doesn't really track the cognitive processes underneath. Thus you encounter people saying [for instance] they are INTJ/P's -- which makes utterly no sense since these are vastly different types in terms of preferred cognitive processes! An INTJ's dominant cognitive process and greatest gift is introverted iNtuiting, which is the *sixth* process for an INTP, and vice versa for INTP's dominant cognitive process and greatest gift of introverted Thinking (sixth for INTJs). How can anyone be a hybrid of both?!?
Probably one of the biggest problems in the type community is believing the MBTI and its four dichotomies *IS* type. I'm soooooo sick of hearing about psychological type As Told Through the MBTI Framework. Those four categories reflect brilliant instrument construction, but do virtually nothing toward helping people grasp the underlying theory.
MOST misunderstood are the first and last letters in the code, which aren't really "scales" in their own right, but "attitudes" intended to describe the "direction" of the functions. I/E lets us know whether our best gift is an introverted or extraverted one; J/P lets us know which one we prefer to show the outer world. And -- as with every other letter in the code -- they reflect *preferences* (not prisons!).
WORST OF ALL is the J/P scale, which has been distorted and blown completely out of proportion (especially considering it was Isabel Myers' unique contribution and not part of Jung's original theory). People imagine that J/P describes whether they are messy or not, decisive or not, want closure or not, are flaky or not, are bossy or not, are hide-bound or not, are wimpy or not. (Accordingly, many who prefer Feeling suppose they are "P" and many who prefer Thinking suppose they are "J" because of a cultural conflation.)
Those two letters (J/P) have become the "dumping ground" for everything that's bad about type. :-(
Here is a message Dr. Linda Berens posted to another board about the J/P scale -- it's easier than writing my own version of it.
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Now, on to the message about J and P. You are right in not trying to
sort on J and P. This was a post I was going to make separately
because it is one of the main problems I see everywhere, not just on
this list.
We have to remember from the Cognitive Dynamics model (and Myer's
addition/development of Jung's theory) that the J-P dichotomy was
added to point to which cognitive process is used in the external
world. It has very little meaning in and of itself. The more you
say about J, you are likely talking about _S_J and the more you say
about what P means, the more you are really talking about _N_P.
What J tells you is that the individual is likely to enter a
situation already having a perception of what is likely to happen
since their preferred perception is introverted (Si or Ni). These
types tend to deal with the outer world with a judging process (Te or
Fe) in part to make manifest that perception. Thus there is a
tendency to live life more like a marching band where what is going
to happen is determined in advance and there is more structure.
(However, whenever anyone is using Te (as an INFP would in an
aspirational role), they are going to look "J". So an INFP might
look structured to others. For one thing, an INFP might have
learned early on that if they don't set boundaries they will lose
themselves to others and their important values won't be realized.)
Whe P tells you is that the individual is likely to enter a situation
with a set of principles (Ti) or sense of the relative value of
things (Fi) and then check what is happening in the moment for
consistency or congruency. They tend to live their outer lives like
a jazz band, responding to what others are playing, yet sometimes
using recognizable patterns of play (I know there is a music term for
this, but it escapes me). And, whenever we engage in Se or Ne, we
especially look spontaneous and adaptable.
To add in the Interaction Styles model, much of what has been said
about J is really about directing preferences. When you put people
into groups by J and P, most of the time those with a directing
preference will be overpresented. The exception will be the ISFJs
and ESFJs, and they will go along with the definitions of the group
given the Stabilizer talent for logistics and liking of predictability.
However, if you group people by Directing and Informing, you are
likely to find those with ESTP and ISTP saying similar things to the
"J" group. The same thing happens with "P" groupings in workshops.
In the P group will be the ESTPs and ISTPs, but they are likely to be
in the minority so all that is said is not likely to be fully
representative of just "P".
So my soapbox is to stop talking about "Js" and "Ps" as types, they
aren't types. J and P are just pointers that help unlock the type
code. AND this distinction is the least valuable in helping people
sort out their best-fit type.
In my workshops, I don't do J-P activities because it misleads people
and I don't explain J-P as a continuum or as something in and of
itself. There are very few descriptors that work for J and P. Stick
to these from my book, "Understanding Yourself and Others, An
Introduction to the Personality Type Code," page 15. (if you use
these in something you write, please give me appropriate attribution.)
Those with a Judging preference:
Like things settled, seeking closure for closure's sake
Tend to enter a situation having already anticipated how it will be
and settle on an action before the event
Prefer to plan ahead and follow the plan or guideposts, living in a
planned, orderly way
Like to live a more structured life
Orient to deadlines early (especially _S_J)
Schedule and organize projects and tasks to avoid anxiety and overload
Those with a Perceiving preference:
Like being adaptive, going with the flow
Tend to enter a situation with set beliefs or frameworks and to be
responsive to new data
Prefer to keep options open for change and adaptation, letting life happen
Like to live in an open-ended way
Are energized by deadlines and last-minute rushes
Access many projects and tasks randomly to avoid the anxiety of
missing opportunities.
Linda
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Soooooo..... to summarize for myself -- I rarely look to J/P for signs that someone is mis-typed (although it may ultimately be reflected in the J/P scale). Instead, I look at what interaction style "energy" I feel the person radiate, and I pay attention to what cognitive processes they display, and whether they seem to be expressing the values of their particular Temperament. If those things don't add up, I look close and ask questions.
Whenever it *does* turn out to be related to the J/P scale, I blame the construction of the assessments for the way they sort people and frequently blow it when it comes to this scale. And then people take their assessment results as the "truth" (especially the free online quizzes) and don't know enough to question them.
LAST BUT NOT LEAST (are you sick of me yet?) -- why might an ESTJ do impulse buying?
I confess I don't know for sure, but three possibilities show up for me. 1) an ESTJ's tertiary process is extraverted iNtuiting, which loves what is "emergent"; 2) extraverted Sensing is an ESTJ's Witch/Senex, so they may be impulse buying through their (and the culture's) Shadow; 3) the ESTJ actually has ESTP preferences (and thus are mis-typed), and they are showing the Tactical brilliance of their temperament.
In comparison, INTJs' prefer to be brilliant with Strategy (a dimension of the Theorist temperament). -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 2:40 AM(a shameless promotion moment)
Should you choose to purchase a copy of Linda's excellent workbook, I would be most grateful if you used my Amazon affiliate link:
tinyurl.com/6um25
You might consider it payback for all the free information I'm generously sharing. And, my INTJ husband will thank you. ;-D -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 10:09 AM>>Should you choose to purchase a copy of Linda's excellent workbook, I would be most grateful if you used my Amazon affiliate link:
tinyurl.com/6um25
You might consider it payback for all the free information I'm generously sharing. And, my INTJ husband will thank you. ;-D <<
You missed me by about a week - I've already purchased a copy. Funny moment - I bought that workbook and another book (one that's based on the MBTI types as if I+N+T+J are all individual processes) It couldn't laugh the pass test! There were so many misconceptions and misleading tidbits, it was almost criminal. -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 10:13 AM>>You missed me by about a week - I've already purchased a copy. Funny moment - I bought that workbook and another book (one that's based on the MBTI types as if I+N+T+J are all individual processes) It couldn't laugh the pass test! There were so many misconceptions and misleading tidbits, it was almost criminal.<<
Clarification: it was the second book that was bad, not Berens' workbook. Berens' was great. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 11:49 AMI'm glad the workbook was great! We all love hearing that (and it fits my opinion too). If you want to "give back" a little, you can give a glowing review on Amazon.
Also want to mention that the workbook is by Berens and Nardi -- Nardi has INTJ prefs and I hate to overlook his contribution. (I'm sure you INTJs understand. ;-D)
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 1:05 PM<<LAST BUT NOT LEAST (are you sick of me yet?) -- why might an ESTJ do impulse buying?
I confess I don't know for sure, but three possibilities show up for me. 1) an ESTJ's tertiary process is extraverted iNtuiting, which loves what is "emergent"; 2) extraverted Sensing is an ESTJ's Witch/Senex, so they may be impulse buying through their (and the culture's) Shadow; 3) the ESTJ actually has ESTP preferences (and thus are mis-typed), and they are showing the Tactical brilliance of their temperament. >>
Very interesting. I can especially see how extraverted sensing would cause someone to "seize the moment" and act quickly to make decisions. Might I add a fourth possible reason? I've noticed that ESTJs (as Guardians) seem to size others up almost instantly and place great trust in people they have deemed competent. I know at least three ESTJs (or at least, supposedly ESTJs) very well and, from my observations, they are all extremely respectful to those they have placed on such a pedestal, but to those they have placed below them in their "hierarchy" they often feel the need to put them in their place and assume a much more superior attitude, adopting the role of rule enforcer. Perhaps this is why they enter the military and police force in such great numbers. Anyway, when making important decisions, such as large buying decisions, they feel very comfortable trusting the "experts" as long as they have sized them up to be confident and knowledgeable. I often hear them make comments such as, "Research? Research what? These people work with this stuff all day! Who better to help me find the best computer/TV/etc?" To which I think, "You, of course. Who better to trust than yourself?" :) -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 2:48 PMUngghhh.... I believe all ESTJ's in my life are going to hell. My boss is one. I think he is going there, too. My blood pressure elevates the closer within proximity he gets. I think I see his elevating, too. He is much older. He will go first. :o\
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 3:41 PMLOLOL! I love what you say here:
>>I often hear them make comments such as, "Research? Research what? These people work with this stuff all day! Who better to help me find the best computer/TV/etc?" To which I think, "You, of course. Who better to trust than yourself?" :) <<
Can you hear the "why can't everybody be like me?" implicit in that? After all, an INTJ's primary gift is trusting their Inner Knowing, so naturally it seems strange to put faith anywhere else. I mean, shouldn't everybody rely on their iNtuition?
It would rub you the wrong way indeed for anyone to trust something different.
In turn, we can readily imagine how ESTJs would likewise make *you* "wrong." Can't we??
I wonder how you could contribute toward creating a world where *everybody* gets to be "right"?? ;-) -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 3:54 PM<<I wonder how you could contribute toward creating a world where *everybody* gets to be "right"?? ;-) >>
The INTJ's need to be in charge. We would maximize the usefulness of the entire planetary system, inside and out. In theory. Implementing it may be a little difficult, though. A natural lifetime might pass before we've accumulated enough insight and useful data that we need. :o) -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 5:28 PM...and how will this contribute to your lifelong growth? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 5:34 PMLol!!! -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 6:08 PM<<I wonder how you could contribute toward creating a world where *everybody* gets to be "right"?? ;-) >>
This is like the third time I've tried this message. Each time I try it just doesn't come out right, so I'll try to keep it as short and simple as possible. What type/preferred processes/temperament/interaction style means to me -- all this newfound knowledge, which I'm still in the process of assimilating (so apologies to anyone if I'm getting it wrong) -- is that sometimes there is no "right" answer. Or, alternatively, sometimes the "right" answer doesn't matter, and what matters is something else - diplomacy, tact, cohesion, whatever. I am beginning to understand that others don't necessarily think the way I do -- I mean of course they don't, I knew this before. But now that actually *makes sense* in a profound, digestible manner. So even if someone is "wrong" in my view, I can see why they might think they're "right" - or they may not even think in terms of wrong and right to begin with. And therefore I can change my approach to reach out to them in their "language." In a way, what all this knowledge allows me to do is to translate two foreign languages - my own instinctive, natural language and the other person's - or to make two different programs compatible. -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 10:19 PMWhooof! I got chills reading that post. If it took three times to get it right, it was worth waiting for!!!
As a coach, whenever I get chills, it usually means someone is sharing a very deep truth. I always report back to clients when I get them, because it lets them know I heard compelling wisdom in what they have shared.
Your message reminds me of Rumi's quote:
"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there."
--Rumi
If you can hang onto the idea of what you wrote, through thick or thin, you will model something compelling to everyone around you. -
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Unsu...
Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Wed, October 31, 2007 - 11:39 AMexcellent quote! really gets the grey matter buzzing...
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 2:59 PM
"The INTJ's need to be in charge. We would maximize the usefulness of the entire planetary system, inside and out. In theory. Implementing it may be a little difficult, though. A natural lifetime might pass before we've accumulated enough insight and useful data that we need. :o)"
grrrrrr, no they don't! heh, if corporations really wanted to use type, they should put all the behind the scenes types in leadership positions! And I'm actually half serious with that one. wouldn't it be nice to have a 'power' that doesn't inevitably 'corrupt'? -
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 6:59 PMNot every INTJ *wants* to be in charge.
My INTJ husband was put in charge of a team and he hated it! Too much responsibility; too many headaches. He was lucky to meet somebody else who recently left management to become an independent consultant, and found he likewise hated *that* role. He didn't like being that much of a loner.
They traded! This was years ago, by the way.
Apparently they were commiserating in a bar when the lightbulb turned on -- the next day they both marched in to the Big Boss and proposed it to him. Eventually he agreed, they traded, and everybody was happy. My husband hasn't been in management since.
Neither does he operate "behind the scenes." He's a corporate trainer -- right in front of the class on a regular basis.
I also heard a story once about a company owner who fell in love with the MBTI after a weekend of it and decided to reorganize *every* team in the company to accommodate personality types. Amazing, hunh?
Utter Failure.
Abysmal.
As It Should Be!
There's a lot more to type -- it doesn't determine skill, development, even ability! Not every person is an ideal specimen of their type pattern!
So.... I appreciate the grandiosity of what you are suggesting, and.... type is not the tool to go by. We have to find some other method to choose who runs the planet. :-(
-Vicky Jo, mbti facilitator and type contrarian ;-)
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Re: Analysis of the INTJ-ENFP dynamic... why is it so and when is it not?
Tue, October 30, 2007
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