Determinism

topic posted Wed, July 2, 2008 - 6:21 PM by  Nils
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Hi all, my name is Nils, like Neil, with an s. Am residing in New Zealand, Dutch genes, lived all over. Currently in my third year at university majouring in psychology (orgainisational) and doing HRM and management on the side. Strong INTJ preference.

Now to the point;

I have had heated debates with ENTP friend on free will vs free choice and to what extent it exists within determinism. It went something like;

1 He thinks free will exists, I dispute his claims by arguing influence of any kind infringes on pure freedom of will.
2 I introduce free choice, our will may be impaired, we still have a choice to call our own.
3 I argue determinism exists, free choice within it.
4 He appears to be stuck in accepting a definition of determinism and refuses to accept determinism and calls free choice a technicality of terminology.
5 I leave angered whilst cursing all phil students.

Now does determinism exist? If so why?

When I say determinism I am talking about all events existing in a totally interrelated string of cause and effect, spun into happening since the first cause. Some would say the uncaused cause is God, his creation being the first cause, others that the uncaused cause is nothing which somehow exploded into everything (first cause), causing what you see outside and what you do in your life. Now is this true? Is everything predetermined by prior causes? Hope my crude definition is clear enough.
posted by:
Nils
New Zealand
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  • Re: Determinism

    Thu, July 3, 2008 - 5:46 AM
    I find your argument interesting. Reminds me of a novel written by Spanish author Miguel de Unamuno named 'Niebla' (Fog). One of the arguments he presents at one point, is whether people actually have free will or not.

    He does so by presenting, in a very interesting twist to the story, the main character, Augusto, visiting Miguel de Unamuno at the Univeristy of Salamanca to look for guidance related to Augusto's dead lover. The key point of the chapter is that Augusto says that he will kill himself, but Unamuno tells him that he himself will kill him in the novel. Afterwards, Augusto takes his own life. However, the question arises, did Augusto kill himself do to his own free will or did he die because Unamuno wanted his character dead?

    I don't think there is any English translation for his book, which is a shame, since it does make a very interesting reading.
  • Re: Determinism

    Tue, July 8, 2008 - 9:22 AM
    This is a classic philosophical contention, but as a scientist and a secular Buddhist, I think the
    question can be finessed once one realizes that the egoic state is a contingent or emergent
    one, having no independent existence, but only being the emergent result of previous causes.

    That would be determinism of a sort, but not a determinism that one can confidently base
    predictions on. For example, quantum mechanics can be viewed not as nondeterministic, but as it not
    being possible to determine the initial conditions.

    So we may think we are making a free choice, but all choices are conditioned on what has gone
    before, including the belief that we have made a free choice...

    Of course there are those who believe in spirits and spooks independent from
    but acting on the material world,
    but I don't find them logically necessary.

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