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www.tribe.net/thread/f0c6...706a8c971ce1
>This (solidarity) only works when people respond
>to a perceived injustice en masse.
Agreed. I suppose this is the part where things broke down for me, seeing that as an unlikely scenerio... in this particular instance with people choosing en masse to not marry.
>Indeed, change will come anyway, with or without us.
>When the dust settles, I want to be able to know I
>chose right over privilege.
Now that completelty strikes resonance with with my perception INTJ 'spirit'.
Whether or not results are achieved by your actions... you are maintaining ideological integrity.... something I often see other types be completely wishwashy about... changing opinions and actions with however they feel at a given moment, outside of natural rational outcomes of their given belief sets or the facts.
In my own personal experience, if there's anything I find gets in the way of my achieving desirable results in a given situation... it's the desire to be on the side of 'right', or to be 'logicaly integrous'. When you mentioned earlier about INTJ's having different kinds of feelings, my thoughts came to this particular idea... as I notice most of my bad feelings come about when in observence of breaches of logical integrity.
A trivial example: I used to have a personal profile on Myspace.com, until Foxnews corp. bought the site. Personally I disagree with the policies of that corporation and I think they are contributing to a dangerous situation in the world. Hence, I posted a final bulletin regarding that issue and removed my profile information. It's unfortunate because I'm overseas now and the site was very convenient for keeping up with the vast bulk of my friends and vice versa. While I'm aware my action produces no significant result in the grand scheme of things and I lose out... to remain 'logically integrous' I had little other choice.
What disturbed me most is that the most vocal and outspoken liberal friends (mostly SF types) simply shrugged the matter off or even became apologists for Foxnews which they've previously demonized, saying "well Fox isn't going to change the site.. so it's okay." As if needlessly contributing to the revenue of a company you deem unethical and immoral is okay as long as they don't tamper with the statous quo. A crime of logic which seems to be a luxury for other types... but if I'm going to rationalize as an INTJ I had better come up with something more acceptable than that.
After reading your example and reflecting on personal experience, this seems to be a familiar pattern observable in my other 1-2 INTJ friends as well.
Sacrficing benefits for ideological integrity.
or
Sacrificing relationships to win an arguement.
or
Sacrificing time, energy, etc on things which don't necessarily produce results... but make us 'right'.
The question annoys the hell out of me but sometimes I have to ask "Do I want to be right or do I want to be happy?"
Anyone else notice that pattern?
www.tribe.net/thread/f0c6...706a8c971ce1
>This (solidarity) only works when people respond
>to a perceived injustice en masse.
Agreed. I suppose this is the part where things broke down for me, seeing that as an unlikely scenerio... in this particular instance with people choosing en masse to not marry.
>Indeed, change will come anyway, with or without us.
>When the dust settles, I want to be able to know I
>chose right over privilege.
Now that completelty strikes resonance with with my perception INTJ 'spirit'.
Whether or not results are achieved by your actions... you are maintaining ideological integrity.... something I often see other types be completely wishwashy about... changing opinions and actions with however they feel at a given moment, outside of natural rational outcomes of their given belief sets or the facts.
In my own personal experience, if there's anything I find gets in the way of my achieving desirable results in a given situation... it's the desire to be on the side of 'right', or to be 'logicaly integrous'. When you mentioned earlier about INTJ's having different kinds of feelings, my thoughts came to this particular idea... as I notice most of my bad feelings come about when in observence of breaches of logical integrity.
A trivial example: I used to have a personal profile on Myspace.com, until Foxnews corp. bought the site. Personally I disagree with the policies of that corporation and I think they are contributing to a dangerous situation in the world. Hence, I posted a final bulletin regarding that issue and removed my profile information. It's unfortunate because I'm overseas now and the site was very convenient for keeping up with the vast bulk of my friends and vice versa. While I'm aware my action produces no significant result in the grand scheme of things and I lose out... to remain 'logically integrous' I had little other choice.
What disturbed me most is that the most vocal and outspoken liberal friends (mostly SF types) simply shrugged the matter off or even became apologists for Foxnews which they've previously demonized, saying "well Fox isn't going to change the site.. so it's okay." As if needlessly contributing to the revenue of a company you deem unethical and immoral is okay as long as they don't tamper with the statous quo. A crime of logic which seems to be a luxury for other types... but if I'm going to rationalize as an INTJ I had better come up with something more acceptable than that.
After reading your example and reflecting on personal experience, this seems to be a familiar pattern observable in my other 1-2 INTJ friends as well.
Sacrficing benefits for ideological integrity.
or
Sacrificing relationships to win an arguement.
or
Sacrificing time, energy, etc on things which don't necessarily produce results... but make us 'right'.
The question annoys the hell out of me but sometimes I have to ask "Do I want to be right or do I want to be happy?"
Anyone else notice that pattern?
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Unsu...
Re: INTJ and Logical Integrity
Sat, September 3, 2005 - 8:04 PMYes, yes, yes again. hear you through and through. I do think so many things are so so much more possible than we allow. It can be relatively easy to change your surroundings. Shockingly easy. If you take the teeth out of that INTJ thing where you need others to agree, often, if you're hanging around the right sort of people, just speaking it as you see it is enough. Like last night I was hanging out with a bunch of friends. Three of us separated and went back to a bedroom and were talking about all sorts of stuff. The two people I was with operate on a pretty different plane than I do in terms of sex. He said he'd gone to a tantric healer to help him with some stuff. After a short while, she wanted to change the nature of their relationship. He would no longer pay her, and he would be her sex slave. Our other friend in the room thought it sounded like it was a great idea, an exciting adventure and good for our friend, given some of his recent history. I thought about not being all INTJ'y about it, but finally was like, "Well, do either of you see anything wrong someone he's paid in a therapeutic context changing the rules like that?" Basically I called bullshit on the whole thing. It took some talking, but I was able to affect the flow of conversation. I also really said my thing and then just listened and tried to understand what it looked like to them, b/c I knew I could learn something about the world from hearing it from their perspective.
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Re: INTJ and Logical Integrity
Mon, September 5, 2005 - 6:17 PMWhat a relief to discover that others struggle with intellectual and logical consistency in the same way that I often do. I think one of the unfortunate habits of an INTJ is to take ideas to their logical and extreme conclusions, well beyond the scope of utility. The reasons and conclusions are often clear enough to the INTJ, often so "obvious" that it would seem insulting to explain them, while being completely arcane or even arbitrary to anyone else.
"as I notice most of my bad feelings come about when in observence of breaches of logical integrity."
Exactly. And the bigger problem is that, if these breaches of logical integrity are aired, it's the INTJ who is "attacking" all of the sudden. -
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Unsu...
Re: INTJ and Logical Integrity
Tue, September 6, 2005 - 3:46 PMIt seems really important for INTJs to learn how to use our powers for good instead of evil. That dynamic in which we wind up characterized as "attacking" is unfair to us -- we're just frustrated unto grief with our efforts at being truthful and reasonable, not rabid. From what I can tell, that dynamic can also be very, very alarming for those with whom we interact, i.e. 98% of the population. They are just trying to be nice and pleasant, what are we getting so upset about?
So how do we get to share our perspectives without doing harm to our relationships? I suspect there is something about INTJs that gets so in it, we can't see our way out. If it was another INTJ in the same jam, though, we'd have the clarity of mind to cut through it.
I'm struggling with one of these situations right now. Any INTJs out there willing to hear it and offer advice?
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Re: INTJ and Logical Integrity
Sat, April 28, 2007 - 5:00 PMI try not to contradict myself but I'm sure there are times my behavior contradicts a certain ethical stance. I just think more so than other people I'm aware of when this happens. My conscience when I don't do "the right thing" can be overwhelming, so I find it easier to just do the right action than deal with the repercussions of not. The same goes for my point of view on how to resolve different issues. It is like I'll be listening to someone's idea on how to make the world a less craptastic place and think: do you really not see how this will never work? Or how this contradicts what you JUST said like 10 minutes ago?
I also think if you don't stand by what you believe in: what is the point of even holding an opinion other than to stroke your ego? It really annoys me when people contradict themselves. A good example is when someone is anti-corporate America and yet shops at the bastion of corporate culture -- Wal-mart (if I recall correctly among the top five largest corporations in America). I'd say something but really nothing ever changes. You can point out to a person how they are clearly swimming in BS but they will (like we all do) find a way to justify it. -
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Re: INTJ and Logical Integrity
Sun, April 29, 2007 - 5:25 AMW-M is THE largest corporation in the WORLD. Epitomizes the capitalist "race ot the bottom." -
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Re: INTJ and Logical Integrity
Sun, April 29, 2007 - 1:40 PMI had thought that might be so. These are old numbers but according to Fortune Global 500 for the end of 2002 the largest corporations in the world:
1) Wal-mart (sales in millions of USD 219,812)
2) Exxon Mobil
3) General Motors
4) BP
5) Ford Motors
Sometimes I wonder about all the attention global warming has been getting recently. Maybe I don't give people enough credit but the trend seems to be: get really excited about a certain issue, cycle through really fast, and onto the next sensationalized topic. I just think it is going to take more than rants about how "Our children's future ..." *cut to uncontrolled sobbing* to effect change when the top 10 corporations in the world are primarily comprised of companies invested in maintaining a steady flow of fossil fuel. It has become trendy to be "green" but weren't huge wigs crawling with lice once trendy? As well as fondue pots? It just seems like smoke and mirrors.
And if we want to talk about logical integrity ... Al Gore's energy consumption is 20 times the national average at just one of his homes. I can send a link if anyone is interested. He defends himself by saying that all the good stuff he does for the environment offsets his energy use. Oh really? I think I'm going to go burn some Styrofoam but I swear afterward I'll plant a tree. All good, right? I'm not saying I disagree with his stance (fellow INTJ can understand how this is possible) but the guy is a jerk in my opinion.
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Re: INTJ and Logical Integrity
Sun, April 29, 2007 - 5:26 AMIn spades. In a Buddhist group I was in, someone was going all new-agey about how prayer caused D.C. crime t fall, and when I pointed out that this was false, and I reaped a firestorm of attack fo not being a "good listener."
