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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Thu, February 5, 2004 - 11:07 AMI say: nope. Us rational-types are skeptics, more-or-less. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Fri, February 6, 2004 - 7:28 PMBut analytical types can have such a field day with all the angles and relationships between heavenly bodies.
Still, it seems to me that if we accept the hypothesis that the Sun is at the center of the solar system, most of Astrology goes right out the window. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, September 7, 2004 - 7:25 PMAye...except they have a house system with the Sun at the center too...there are several different systems that give you the "house cusps" on the wheel. You can choose to be pre or post Galileo, if you like.
There are friendly angles, and not so friendly angles. All kinds of shapes and patterns, some of which correlate with other systems, like Tarot.
None of which, as predictors, make sense to me. Give me Psi any day of the week. I like that idea better. Precognition. Hmm, interesting.
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, May 15, 2006 - 11:54 AMAnalytical types would need to incorporate whatever transient subject of study into a larger context; astrology doesn't fit at all, it's simply spurious crap produced to anaesthetize the minds in a time when that was the best that could be done about "it".
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sat, February 7, 2004 - 9:22 AM*nods* If you want to see the real Astrology-lovers, check out the NFs. They suck the stuff right up. ;) -
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, March 23, 2004 - 6:12 PMOkay it's true. InFP do like this stuff.
speaking from experience.
I'm cut both ways.
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 8:36 PMNot for me.
A few years ago I kept a detailed journal for one month, during which time I asked a friend to save my newspaper horoscopes for me; I studiously avoided them for that month. Later, I read my daily horoscopes and compared them with my daily journal entries. The horoscopes were so far off the mark as to make me LOL at times. That was enough to settle the issue for me once and for all.
Of course, this experiment was just with newspaper horoscopes. Who knows if the more "serious" astrologers could have done a better job. Well, I am not willing to pay to find out. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, June 2, 2008 - 9:25 AMGoethe's father paid good money to have a chart cast at his birth. It said he would never amount to anything!
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sat, February 7, 2004 - 10:26 AMThat's so funny. My super-geeky INFP friend just asked if she could do my astrological chart, but knowing of my rational bent was shy about it.
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Wed, February 11, 2004 - 3:35 PMNope. Much more an NF thing, I think.
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, February 17, 2004 - 11:48 AMNah.
Astrology is horse-pockey.
Then again, it is a lot easier to grok than modern cosmology.
:-)
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sat, February 28, 2004 - 12:10 PMI'd be interested to see any good statistical data that shows the distribution of M-B types across each sign. I know an inordinate number of Scoprio NTs and Gemini NFs, and have alwasy wondered if there's some connection, or if I'm jsut lucky. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Thu, March 18, 2004 - 3:17 AMI haven't looked into it, but I know a lot of NTs and there may be correlation with birth order?
My husband and I are both NTs (he's P, I'm increasingly J). And I really don't get along with SFs, lol.
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Fri, March 26, 2004 - 3:52 PMIm on the cusp Aquarius/Pisces and my M-B is point in INFP/INTJ
ENFP/ENTJ
Behold the complex illusion. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 2:42 PMThat made no sense
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 8:50 PMI would also like to see what type of correlation is derived from this study. It may be that some personality types are influenced by an external factor.
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, March 1, 2004 - 5:31 AMI am not sure if it is typical of INTJ'ers but I study it when I have time :).
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, May 31, 2004 - 12:08 PMI am a highly interested student of astrology...the specifics and applications attract me, I think, in addition to the occult factor...
I can't say for sure whether I believe in it or not, but...so many wonderful details to pour over!! ;)
Does it make a difference that I am only a mildly expressed introvert?
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Thu, March 18, 2004 - 4:14 PMUhhh...I'd have to say, based on my own experience as an *extreme* INTJ, that the answer is no. While I understand why astrology is appealing to some folks, the structure just doesn't make sense. But then, organized religion doesn't make sense to me, either.... -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sat, March 20, 2004 - 6:28 PM*Extreme* -- Wow.
On all four axes?
Do you know your scores? -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sun, March 21, 2004 - 2:09 PMYep...all four axes nearly pegged...the facilitator was really surprised; hadn't seen results like that before...can't remember the scores, though. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, March 22, 2004 - 8:28 AMWow. Can we do experiments on you and stuff? -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, March 23, 2004 - 7:09 PMYou bet...just don't leave any marks....
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Thu, June 3, 2004 - 7:24 AMIf stars can have an effect on things, like warping time-space, then they might have some sort of effect on us. However, aside from planetary movement. The only space I have seen warp around me is the space in front of my stomach :-(
Besides, there are many systems of astrology.
Also, I was born in Greece, so how can those constellations have an kind of factor? if astrology works that is...
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, June 7, 2004 - 11:39 PMI love both western and vedic astrology. It's pretty typical for INTJ's to synthesize info and develop theories. I see astrology and other personality theories (like Enneagram, Myers-Briggs, etc.) to be a systematic way of understanding people.
The flaw is that people are often not understandable. :)
(I think that there are probably a lot of Enneagram type 5s in this tribe) -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, September 6, 2004 - 11:55 AMYes to Five.
Absolutely not to astrology.
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, November 29, 2004 - 11:15 AMI have gotten pretty into the Tarot, not for readings but more for the symbology of it all... when you think of how ancient and primordial the ideas are, it's quite thought provoking... that meshes well with astrology. It's a great way to get some feedback on yourself for a person (like myself) who is too proud to ask for feedback or talk about myself overly. I look at how the astrologist / tarot predicts I will be, and try to contrast it with the way I believe I am. Doesn't make for a very exciting Friday night, but it does jive with the INTJ drive for justification, both pragmatically and teleologically...
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sun, June 13, 2004 - 7:33 PMPersonally, I'm always looking for more information about people.
I can't always read people (-that is to say, I often put my own interpretations on top of their actions!) What's so fun about tarot cards and astrology is their randomness. They provide neatly packaged little descriptions. I can discard the bits that are completely off-base, but sometimes there are elements that are useful, perspectives I hadn't considered.
So, short answer:
believe in horoscopes? no way.
use them for a thinking out-of-the-box springboard? Sure, any tool that works!
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, August 24, 2004 - 6:27 AMI'm with the mathematician Hilbert who said that if he made a list of the ten most stupid professions, "astrologer" would be the only one on the list. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, August 24, 2004 - 10:48 AMI don't think being an astrologer is any stupider than being, say, a priest.
I suspect most working astrologers have great job satisfaction. An astrologer gives clients some ways to look at their lives -- often kinder, gentler ways than they had walking in. I've seen "believer" friends of mine come back from their appointments having gained some relief from blaming themselves or others for failed efforts, and having some assurance about how best to face their next challenges. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, August 24, 2004 - 10:50 AM(Sometimes I wish I didn't think it was a crock of shit.) -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, September 7, 2004 - 7:19 PMWell, if they'd get the correct astronomical figures for their ephemerides maybe it would make some sense.
I asked a Rosicrucian once how they got off using tables that were so far beyond astronomical correctness to base predictions (one entropic item at a time, here) on, and he told me it was an "astral body thing".
For those who want to goof with it as is though, www.astrowow.com/
is a pretty good site.
NT's are always checking stuff like this out, so for everyone who wants to read their scope and gets something out of it, more power to you. I'm INTJ, almost xxxJ, so it tends to ruffle me somewhat and intrigue me at the same time...it has such great intuitive potential and such lousy numbers. My severely INTJ mate though, has nothing to do with it at all, save placate his mother. She loves to send us our horrorscopes. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, September 7, 2004 - 7:31 PMI'm a Gemini with gas ascending. Is that good? -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, September 7, 2004 - 7:33 PMNot always.
--Your wife.
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sat, January 29, 2005 - 7:20 PMgas ascending and colon descending --> not good
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, May 15, 2006 - 11:58 AMSorry to disagree this time, I like all your other posts, but I've got to tell you, my mom believes in things way dumber than astrology.
I made a video called "my mother is a shaman" check it out www.kurzwasple.com/embed.php
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, August 24, 2004 - 10:03 PM -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, November 29, 2004 - 3:13 PMI have a great curiosity about everything and astrology is included.
If we have to believe in a 10 dimensional universe to understand string theory then astrology is just another curiosity. -
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sat, January 29, 2005 - 6:23 PMI don't give astrology any more or less credit than anything else humans have come up with over the years........
.............that being said, I have a much easier time with people who are skeptical about it, or who are adamant disbelievers, than I do for with those who embrace it wholeheartedly and attempt to explain seemingly everything in astrological terms. Astrology can be interesting conversation fodder -- however, after about a year of curious exploration, I still find it to be excessively arbitrary. Though I am fascinated by the theories and structures behind it, I can never seem to find a satisfactory explanation as to 'why' it is supposed to work -- I can buy that the heavenly bodies may effect our daily lives as individuals; what I can't buy is the alleged tendencies of each sign, and meanings of each planet/house (speaking of Western astrology here, which is all I've looked at). Also I'm not too convinced that the natal chart is horribly significant. Most astrologers I've talked to will cite "tradition" and try to point out that it is just as valid as the religions of the world -- problem being I don't give the religions of the world, nor tradition, much credit, either :)
As for professional astrologers, I consider the good ones to be spiritual advisors/healers/counselors -- as was stated above, they can give a different perspective on life and allow one to think outside of the box, promoting new approaches to old perceived problems. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sat, January 29, 2005 - 10:13 PMI am a complete skeptic when it comes to astrology. Any time someone asks for your sign, tell them to tell you. I have never yet had anyone be able to determine my sign that way. Funny, if it works so well, you'd think they'd be able to... How would the alignment of the planets affect our lives here on Earth? Their gravitational influence is tiny, and visually they are only small specks in the night sky. I think that astrology has had more than enough chances to prove itself, and has failed utterly each time. I wish people would just let it go, but it seems to be pretty insidious. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 2:49 PMYou can only know someones zodiac sign by talking to them and studying their quirks and traits.
If people meet you for the first five minutes and try to guess your zodiac, they will fail.
However, I have a typical logic solving INTJ mode of thinking and I know astrology (my theory of it anyway) is real in concept.
I'm still quite new so I'm only able to guess the more easy star signs for now (e.g. Aries and Scorpio).
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, May 15, 2006 - 12:16 PMWhat if I gave you my original version of astrology, based entirely on my subjective feelings about what star formations are supposed to mean. Would you be interested in that? Because if you say no, then it means you do find conventional astrology credible, which is irrational. This is different from a dispersive but harmless interest in any self-contained ideological system (of which my astrology would be a sample).
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Fri, August 26, 2005 - 9:57 PMWhere does he camp? I love him! -
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, August 30, 2005 - 10:11 AMOoops. I got that last post placed incorrectly. I was responding to the post about Free Will. -
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sat, February 18, 2006 - 11:47 PMIsn't all science essentially the use of various models for the "proving of theorems?" I've never heard any true scientist claim that they knew anything with absolute certainty. That's the conceit of intellectuals, and lesser academics.
I'm not big on Astrology, but to say that our destinies, mind, emotions, spirit, or will are completely unnaffected by the physical universe is quite a stretch. It's as faith based as atheism.
The three kings were able to predict the birth of the Christ child, and find him, based on astrology. And here is the kicker - whether you believe the story is true or myth is irrelevant. Every artist knows that poetic truth is more important, and in some ways "truer" than actual truth. Don't believe me? Consider the story of Jesus - "true" or not, consider it's impact on actual truth - human history over the last 2000 years. -
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, May 15, 2006 - 12:27 PM>I've never heard any true scientist claim that they knew anything with absolute certainty.
Not sure what a true scientist is, if you talk about those who write enlightened books, these are mostly chaps who decided to get married and have to publish books to make some extra cash since thanks to irrational people their salaries are 1/250,000 of a soccer player.
The fact that no theory can ever be proved with 100.0% certainty doesn't mean a 99% certainty doesn't carry a greater weight than a 0.000001% possibility.
>to say that our destinies, mind, emotions, spirit, or will are completely unnaffected by the physical universe is quite a stretch
straw-man argument
>It's as faith based as atheism.
occam's razor invoked here.
>The three kings were able to predict the birth of the Christ child, and find him, based on astrology.
So one more good reason to stay away from astrology LOL
>Every artist knows that poetic truth is more important, and in some ways "truer" than actual truth.
Playing with words here. The physical universe we seem to inhabit can be manipulated by objective truth. What makes your emotions tingle, that's another kind of thing, which you may describe as truth in poetic terms, but these aren't to be confused.
>Consider the story of Jesus - "true" or not, consider it's impact on actual truth - human history over the last 2000 years.
Huge BS, huge impact. Doesn't make it true, doesn't make astrology reliable in predicting anything. -
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, May 15, 2006 - 12:31 PMAdditionally the fact that the Quran helped locate 1000 year old mohammed al safari's holy sponge in the middle of the desert as reported by a bunch of camel salesmen in the province of abu bibu on al jazeera doesn't prove that there actually is a correct direction for muslim astronauts to bow to when in orbit.
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 6:54 AMUh, no?
BTW, biblically astrology is not encouraged. The three wisemen were aware of the birth of Jesus from prophecy, not astrology and found Jesus two years after his birth using astronomy, ie a shining star.
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, March 7, 2006 - 1:07 PMWell, I am quite sceptical of the sun-sign horoscope in the paper kind of astrology. That stuff will, at best, give some people an idea about how best to approach some aspects of their life. Though thinking that the planets in our solar system interact with our environment in different ways depending on what stars are "behind" them (Zodiac constellations) makes every bit as much sense as string theory or most of quantum physics. I don't automatically disbelieve in things just because I don't understand the mechanism by which they are thought to work.
However, I have a friend who is a serious astrologer, and if he's interpreting a chart for me or someone in my family, well, his predictions have been pretty much on the mark for 22 yeasr now. If he's offering me an astrological explanation of events that happened or events to come, I'm listening *very* carefully.
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sun, June 1, 2008 - 10:30 PMI've studied astrology for years now. It's something of a 'closet hobby' as I don't like to discuss it with others. I do however find plenty of interesting tidbits of information to wrap my mind around when browsing articles or forums on the topic.
The most factual findings of mine have been in the actual birth charts. For instance, when comparing the charts of family members, I have found strange correlations between siblings, parents, etc. That's when the deeper sides of astrology begin to show.
To debunk astrology with a newspaper experiment is just plain narrow-mindedness. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, June 2, 2008 - 8:57 AM1) Carl Jung came up with the psychological types model.
2) Several current type experts posit that Jung's preferences were for INTJ.
3) Jung was fascinated by astrology.
4) Astrology is way more complex than "sun signs" or newspaper forecasts.
5) Jung says:
Astrology is assured of recognition from psychology without further restrictions because Astrology represents the summation of all the psychological knowledge of antiquity.
As I am a psychologist, I am particularly interested in the particular light the horoscope sheds on certain complications in the character. In cases of difficult psychological diagnosis, I usually get a horoscope in order to have a further point of view from an entirely different angle. I must say that I have very often found that the astrological data elucidated certain points which I otherwise would have been unable to understand.
We are born at a given moment, in a given place and, like vintage years of wine, we have the qualities of the year and of the season of which we are born. Astrology does not lay claim to anything more.
6) Jungian and type expert Dr. John Beebe says on the matter:
Astrology is the Ancient World's psychology. It is a psychology of the unconscious -- a proto-psychology, a pre-psychology. We can't correlate typology with astrology. Astrology speaks to an instinctive underpinning, an infrastructure to our psychology, but doesn't in itself explain consciousness. [NB: psychological types are about kinds of consciousness]
7) Several years ago my INTJ husband and I had our charts cast by world-famous astrologer, Alice Howell, who is also a Jungian. Alice diagrams the astrological influences in one's chart and maps it to the Jungian archetypes that are probably influencing you. And she's eerily accurate. When I did my session with her, she nicknamed me "Crusader Rabbit" and "Sparkle Plenty" in order to describe some of the archetypal influences governing me. Alice has written an interesting book, "Jungian Symbolism in Astrology," that describes her methods. She's not predicting whether someone will meet a tall dark handsome stranger or win the lottery tomorrow -- but she managed to convince me there was some value to be had in astrology, especially when it is held lightly and studied for "influences."
8) Nevertheless, I'm generally skeptical of the whole thing and astrologers as a whole (my preferences are for INFJ), and don't tend to waste any time studying or pursuing this area -- nor does my INTJ husband. We're pretty much "live and let live" about it.
9) Did you find this message helpful? Please let me know. Thanks!
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, June 2, 2008 - 9:28 AMI think Neils Bohr's most darning criticism would apply: "It's not even wrong."
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, June 2, 2008 - 3:39 PMYes Vicki, I can relate to what you've said. I've browsed this tribe and found all of your entries particularly fascinating. You are just the lovely type of woman that I like to use as a role model. Thanks for the reply! -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Wed, June 4, 2008 - 7:54 PMMelissa,
what lovely things to read! Thank you!
Other than my husband (who is well-trained), I rarely hear such complimentary things from INTJs. They tend to distrust flattery and avoid it. Which leaves me somewhat curious about whether you're playing on the right "team" with type. Have you checked out the INFJ pattern to see how well it fits you? My "team" would welcome you with open arms and delightedly say how fabulous you are. ;-D -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Mon, September 7, 2009 - 9:20 PMI find it interesting that there is an astrology system in almost every culture; the common western astrology, the vedic astrology, chinese astrology, etc., and as I studied all of these systems (I often get sucked into how systems work and it drives my parents crazy because they are less interested in theory than I am), and found just how (possibly) universal these systems are in accordance with each other.
I often find myself typing people in every manner possible; MBTI, Western Astrology, Bazi, etc., and it is very interesting how the time of the year they are born into affects their personalities.
It could be a bias of some sort, of course; and I do keep that in mind as I study these systems. For example, is there really a "scorpio rising/moon glare", or are we just "assuming that we see it" because the descriptions say so? Furthermore, since tropical scorpio equates to sidereal/vedic libra, how does this affect the system and our view of the "infamous scorpio glare"?
I have a lot of questions about astrology, but I've never been interested in the "fortune-telling" aspects of it (a.k.a. horoscopes) though. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, September 8, 2009 - 2:19 PMHere's what Jungian Dr. John Beebe says about astrology:
Astrology is the Ancient World's psychology. It is a psychology of the unconscious -- a proto-psychology, a pre-psychology. We can't correlate typology with astrology. Astrology speaks to an instinctive underpinning, an infrastructure to our psychology, but doesn't in itself explain consciousness.
Jung (who some leading Jungians speculate had INTJ preferences) says:
Astrology is assured of recognition from psychology without further restrictions because Astrology represents the summation of all the psychological knowledge of antiquity.
As I am a psychologist, I am particularly interested in the particular light the horoscope sheds on certain complications in the character. In cases of difficult psychological diagnosis, I usually get a horoscope in order to have a further point of view from an entirely different angle. I must say that I have very often found that the astrological data elucidated certain points which I otherwise would have been unable to understand.
We are born at a given moment, in a given place and, like vintage years of wine, we have the qualities of the year and of the season of which we are born. Astrology does not lay claim to anything more.
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I have some more stuff by Jung on astrology, but can't lay my hands on it quickly. However, he found NO direct correlation between type and astrology per se. They are radically different.
Most INTJs I know don't particularly trust astrology -- they are more interested in empirically-provable evidence. It seems like every INTJ I've ever known is interested in how the brain works more than anything. Unlike Jung, they tend to regard astrology as too "woo-woo." Jung was different, because (unlike most INTJs) he was unwilling to dismiss anything simply because he did not understand it -- and that includes astrology, tarot, I Ching, UFOs, and paranormal events. Obviously he created the term "synchronicity," so clearly he was open to the possibility of "woo-woo." So he was a rare and unusual being. :-)
Hope this helps you.
-Vicky Jo :-) -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, September 8, 2009 - 3:47 PMYes, it helps me a lot; after all, I started learning about all these things because i wanted to know how the mind works and interacts. I think my S/N and T/F are a little more on the borderline because to some extent there is an inherent wishful thinking that figuring out someone's personality and the way they think was as easy as an astrological chart or a Bazi four pillars.
I don't claim to have Jung's mind, but I understand that some people see a correlation between these things (to a limited extent, I am also one of those...), and I am willing to study it, even if just to prove to myself that this is illogical and I should spend my time doing something more productive.
Thanks for the input. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, September 8, 2009 - 11:18 PMI'm glad you found it helpful.
I might also encourage you to investigate more about type. Being "on the borderline" between S/N and T/F simply refers to the structure of the MBTI instrument. The dichotomies are a convenient construction for creating a psychological assessment, but they do not reflect psychological reality. I suppose a comparative might be that if you took a Mensa test and nearly failed, I doubt you would say that you're "borderline" smart.
It's one thing to be borderline on an assessment; it's something else again to assess one's actual psychology.
There's lots more to learn about type in that respect! :-) -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 9:23 AMWell, if I took a Mensa test and nearly failed, I'd say I was borderline stupid.. ha ha. Just joking.
Are we talking the Ne/Ni, Te/Ti, Fe/Fi, and Se/Si? I know I blame my weird obsessions on S/N and T/F, but whenever I take any tests, I tend to come out strongly Ni dependent with Te preferences, and I do agree with the Ni-Te preference.
It is very difficult to try to assess oneself because of the subjectivity that factors into it, I think. This is often a reason why I have trouble having confidence in my type being INTJ, especially because I don't act like a typical INTJ, especially in social settings. I do know that the typing is purely how a mind works, not the facade we present, but I am conflicted by how different my actions are compared to how I think.
I know astrology really doesn't help and I don't actually trust much on it (plus I don't really study it), but there is a weird conflict of what if's supported by the seeming universality of it by different cultures. That is probably one of the reasons why I keep its possibilities open. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 12:21 PMWell, we're getting deeper into Jung at this point.
Our four preferences comprise our Ego, while our Dominant is equivalent to our Persona. So there's a lot to it all. As I often find myself telling people, it's not a one-step process to identify your type. It's not like you can just walk through the MBTI "door" and be done -- it's a journey; a journey I've been on myself for 13 years now. And everyday I still learn something new when applying type models with my coaching clients.
If you don't "act" like a typical INTJ (whatever that is), then maybe you aren't one. ???
Based on experience more than anything, I might suggest you look at ENFP as an alternative possibility. I meet multitudes of mis-typed ENFPs who show up as INFJs and INTJs but are clearly using a "Get-Things-Going" interaction style not "Chart-the-Course." One of the obvious giveaways for me are the ones who join Tribe or a Yahoo Group and then post about 15 messages right away. IN_Js are much more "contained" than that.
Of course, there's a terror some ENFPs seem to have that E = obnoxious (or would that be ebnoxious? Hm). And that's just a false stereotype. I know a number of ENFP writers. You would swear they preferred introversion, and.... they don't! So clearly E does not equate to obnoxious, overbearing, loudmouthed, etc. :-)
You're absolutely right about the subjective problem -- thus justification for my work as a Self-Discovery Specialist. I take people through a structured discovery process to help them identify themselves in the models. Without a "sounding board" to provide helpful feedback along the way, our egos can easily fool us about who we really are. I met a Jungian just the other day who told me they had ENFP preferences, and I guarantee you they had ENTP preferences. Now I have to figure out if and when I'm ever going to have *that* conversation with him. :-P
As you can see, there's lots to think about.
Within a few weeks I hope to have a Virtual Workshop for sale that teaches quite a bit more about the 8-function model. That's my way of spreading better-quality information about type than is currently out there online. Stay tuned!
-Vicky Jo :-) -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 3:58 PMYeah, I've been studying MBTI and Jung for awhile now as well, and the more I study, the more I am confused about it (especially in relation to myself).
I certainly thought about it (not being INTJ), and I've studied what I thought was applicable (including Sensor dominant, Feeling dominant, you name it), but thus so far, I have yet to find a description that I could truly yell out, "That's me." I've also had an interesting development, where I was forced to be Extroverted in order to learn English, so I acted quite out of character for a long time, but being extroverted drains my energy a lot (I spent half of my teenage years sleeping or locking myself in my room after being extroverted at school all day long). I can be extroverted in a social setting, but it requires I take twice as much time to myself to recharge... so I'm not sure if I would be an E who tends to take ideas from the outside world and are generally energized by input from the outside... but I'll at least take a look at NF's once more and see if any fit.
I know E ≠obnoxiousness although some can be very annoying...
By your example, I wouldn't be an ENFP... and I am not too sure if I've ever used "Get things going" interaction style, since I usually need to know where things are going to end up more than who is involved... but again, I'll keep my mind open as well as try to see with these in mind... I could be ISTP (they also use "chart the course", even if I am not the best at sensing skills). Who knows? -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 6:30 PMWell the MBTI doesn't take long to study, unless you're a certified practitioner. Once you know E/I, S/N, T/F, J/P and what they stand for, there's not much more to know. The more you lean into it, the more it evaporates -- especially when you begin to realize, "Hey, I do it all!"
The J/P dichotomy is especially annoying this way. Worse, in the case of introverts, that letter is the *opposite* of how we experience ourselves, which is most disconcerting.
Do you experience yourself as a rational, or an irrational type?
What were your best subjects in school? What are the kinds of things you do even if you don't get paid to do them?
What is it about chart-the-course that you identify with?
-vjv :-) -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 7:36 PMI know that MBTI is more of a spectrum rather than one or the other, thus depending on the situation, people do utilize different things; it's just matter of preference, I believe. The letters show what one prefers to use over the other...
In terms of being rational or irrational, most people who know me well will always claim that I am rational, and I also think of myself as a rational being for most part.
In terms of best subjects, it's whatever I took interest in; science, math, government and language. Things I would do even if I didn't get paid to do them would be debating and reading about my topic of interest without having to be bothered by things and people...
"Chart the course" seems to resonate in the fact that I have to know what I need to do to get the project done as well as every fact and rules in play. I usually finish the projects assigned to me, and I tend to make decisions after figuring out both the possibilities and outcome of the project. "Get Things Going" is similar to me to the extent that both interactive models focus on the goal, but I am not as interested in getting involvement as long as the job gets done satisfactorily.
The thing with ENFP that I have trouble accepting would be the Fi auxiliary function; I do not think my Fi is developed to that extent nor do I depend quite heavily to support my reasons and actions. I am sure it's there and I do use it sometimes, but logic always wins over any value arguments (except when I am deciding on whether I should get coke or pepsi at the same price). -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Thu, September 10, 2009 - 12:40 PMFirst, I don't know that I'm attached to ENFP for you in any way -- I threw it out as a generality because it's so common to find ENFPs mistyped in every way possible. It was the Wild Card in this case.
MBTI as a spectrum? Hm, I'm not sure about that language. The MBTI dichotomies are intended to identify *preferences*, and type is a model of preferences. I also see it as a systematic model of consciousness. :-)
I see I should have defined my terms "rational" and "irrational." Those of us who have a perceiving function as our dominant process are "irrational" types; while those who have a judging function as a dominant process are "rational" types." These are not the common terms as defined in the dictionary, but rather Jungian terms. I like them better than J & P because they are more accurate. As an INFJ, I am a dominant perceiving type, despite the "J" in my code. Thus I am an "irrational" type, as are INTJs. Yep, INTJs are "irrational" types. (That oughta stick in the craw of most INTJs. ~wink~) Irrational simply means that we are always receiving new information, like building a home in the middle of the prairie. You never know when a strong wind is going to come along and change everything. In contrast, "rational" types tend to put everything into neat little boxes.
The science & debating interest sound typically INTJ, as does the desire for completion, closure. I think I hear the unconscious values for Chart-the-Course in what you've written.
I don't know that you answered my other question about what makes you Atypical from other INTJs....? What are you not yet comfortable with around that pattern? (Or is it simply a dislike of limitation, and choosing *any* pattern means limitations you are disinclined to accept?)
For the record, we ALL use ALL 8 of the functions -- just with varying competence. So certainly you do use introverted Feeling -- the only question is in what capacity is it used? I hear that it is probably not your best gift. :-)
I wonder whether my questions make sense...? :-O
-Vicky Jo -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Thu, September 10, 2009 - 3:19 PMOk. And I definitely considered the possibility of being an ENFP, just to make sure... but I guess the wild card might not have fit this time.
As for the spectrum idea, it was in reference to my earlier post about S/N T/F border... it was some idea that was instilled while we were learning about MBTI (back in high school). I meant spectrum as in the ability to use all 8 functions depending on different circumstances; that it's not matter of being stuck on one or the other... but I guess there was a bit of misunderstanding; my teacher at the time had used the term "spectrum", and it just stuck with me since then.
Thanks for the definition... I do remember reading that the "intutive" function is irrational, and this tend to be very difficult for INTJs because they're trying to scientifically prove an "irrational" thought with evidence... in some aspect, I have to be irrational because nothing is concrete absolute truth. Nah, I've never been able to put everything into neat little boxes; there are too many factors to put them in the "said boxes" and label them to my satisfaction. It's not that black and white. When I clean, I do try to compartmentalize to my best abilities even if it's going to change later... so you can say, I attempt to be a rational (very bad joke)... but this very fact makes me very indecisive on certain things, and I end up wondering if I am J or P.
I don't think I really have trouble accepting the NT aspect, just the IJ aspect of the INTJ; I wonder if those four letter really are what I truly prefer or whether I subjectively think I prefer.
**I don't know that you answered my other question about what makes you Atypical from other INTJs....?
What makes me atypical, would be my ability to be interact well in a social setting. A lot of the descriptions for INTJ's make one think of such individuals as "robotic" almost, and because I've never met another INTJ in person there is no verification of my type being correct or whether I am mistyped. I think the way I acted like an ESFP (or a crazy Extraverted kid) in social settings when I was a teenager confused me a lot in trying to type myself.
**What are you not yet comfortable with around that pattern? (Or is it simply a dislike of limitation, and choosing *any* pattern means limitations you are disinclined to accept?)
I don't think I am uncomfortable with being INTJ, just that I'm not sure if this is the perfect fit, and whether there is another four-letter match where I can say with confidence "this is exactly how I function, 100%", like some INTJ's do when they are exposed to MBTI. Furthermore, INTJ being described as "mastermind" also makes me wonder, whether I warrant such title just for preferring to use Ni and Te more than S/F.
I know I do use Fi (while I'm not always sure that I am using it, it should provide some basis for some of my decisions, I would think), just not as good at it as some of my friends are.
Your questions did make sense, and I thought I answered them, but maybe my answers didn't sound like an answer. I hope they all made sense... if not, I guess you can tell me what confuses you and I could try to clarify. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Thu, September 10, 2009 - 3:50 PMSo I'm hearing social skills seem to be the question. Hmmm...
I wonder if you would like to go further afield and play with INFJ/INTJ differences for a moment? Perhaps that might net you some new insights.
My INTJ husband and I discuss some of our differences at a high level in a short video on this page:
www.INFJ.com/INFJorINTJ.htm
Viewing it might give you some insights.
Have you explored your use of extraverted Feeling?
-Vicky Jo :-) -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Thu, September 10, 2009 - 6:02 PMI read your post, and I must say... I resonate more with how an INTJ functions... I can tell you my macbook specs (but I won't tell you here because... I don't think you really want to know or care), but I can't tell you much about my friends' relationships... I find those things out when I go to their facebook profiles and happen to see "in relationship with..." and even then, I often forget those things maybe a few minutes later; those are very difficult for me to remember (nor do I really care... and I visibly suffer boredom when my mom starts talking about these things to me just as she suffers when I talk about some bizarre statistics I am interested in at the moment).
Unfortunately, it seems I don't utilize extraverted feeling too well; I don't do Fi well, but Fe, I do even less of... for example, if it weren't for my little brother who calls me to remind me of our parents' birthdays, anniversaries, and all that, I'd miss them (and I have done so previously, which led my brother to take care of that by calling me and telling me a month before, a week before, and the day before; actually my entire family does this to me). I think his "Fe" is more developed than mine. I do act friendly with people because people cooperate with you better when they don't hate your guts, I've found and learned (from my lecturing mom). :)
What's really interesting about your post is just how often my parents accused me of being "selfish" (but not really critical) in the past because I didn't see why I had to do something they ordered me to do when I didn't see any worth in them. In the end, I did them (grumbling all the way until the end) because I didn't like being told that I was "selfish".
I guess I do fit INTJ even if I am a bit more "social" than how most INTJ's appear to be... and I really couldn't be an F-preference (note to self... try to develop them more).
Thank you for the help. Plus, I didn't realize you were the one in that video; I've watched it before (without really focusing on it because I didn't think of myself as an INFJ). My INFJ friend used her hands a lot when we conversed too. :) -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Thu, September 10, 2009 - 9:58 PMWell it sounds as though the video verifies some things for you. Yay!
A few disparate thoughts burble up for me:
1) I've known a number of well-mannered INTJs in my life (one of them is a leader for my coach training school even);
2) My husband is quite well mannered -- in fact, he's an exquisite host when it comes to a party
3) Not all etiquette is Fe. Te is about "following the proper form," so it can do a good job of etiquette and politeness. In fact, I often ask my husband what to write on a sympathy card, because he'll know the correct form, whereas I am likely to get ridiculously histrionic. :-P
4) If you grew up in a family that called your behavior "selfish," you may have learned some social skills as a survival skill. Human beings typically develop the processes they need to develop in order to get by.
5) Last -- as a woman, the culture expects you to have well developed social skills -- so again, you may have developed social skills in response to social pressure.
I don't know whether any of those points land with you -- here's hoping you find some of them insightful.
The important thing to remember is that (again) we all can and do use all eight of the processes -- none of us got overlooked when they were handing out abilities to use functions. My mentor says the functions are consciousnesses we may develop -- they are *potentials* for excellence. So INTJ simply means your gifts probably lie within those letters -- however, you would be very one-sided indeed if you didn't develop the rest of you.
Now that we've explored the Feeling matter a bit, what remaining questions do you have? What else is keeping you from committing to the INTJ pattern?
Vicky Jo :-) -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Fri, September 11, 2009 - 8:30 AMI enjoyed the video, especially the part where your husband was talking about the scoville scale. I laughed. :)
Your points definitely did help me out; just because I can function in a social setting without fainting doesn't automatically make me an extrovert, nor does it mean I function using Fe/Fi... although I'm sure those are developed to certain extent (maybe it means that it just takes more energy to deal with them than if I used Te or Ni).
At this point, I'm not sure if I can keep myself from being committed to the INTJ pattern... whatever question I did have about myself being INTJ, you've sort of provided answer to.
Thank you for that. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Fri, September 11, 2009 - 11:14 AMIt sounds like we've made some progress. Yay! :-)
And now I might venture to suggest you seem to be exploring Feeling -- such as do you use it or don't you? Is it developed or isn't it? What the heck is it?
If my guess is on the money, then here's another video that may intrigue you. I'm interviewing my INFP friend about his pattern, and we talk about the Feeling function some. It might shed some additional light on the topic for you:
www.infj.com/INFJorINFP.htm
and I have another interview with an INFP here:
www.infjorinfp.com/docs/Int...Steve.htm
These might give you some insights around the Feeling function. There's so much to say about INTJs and the Feeling functions (Fi, Fe) -- and this info might start you on that journey.
Let me know your thoughts. :-)
-Vicky Jo -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Fri, September 11, 2009 - 2:54 PMThe INFP man seems so laid-back, just kind of watching what you're doing, responding... that's cool.
You're right; now that I seem to have a bit of an understanding over Ni/Ne and Ti/Te, I'm not so sure about Fi/Fe (other than they're not the most developed preferences of mine) or Si/Se. I do know that I have some trouble in this area.
I resonated with your INFP colleague in how he behaves in parties; staying in one area, near those I know or leaving when it gets to be too much, and I rarely meet new people at parties because I often don't like to initiate conversations with those I don't know, nor do I follow up on them later, even if I do talk with them. My circuit will just shut down on itself with too much stimulation (after I get all excited and overheat). My INFJ friend acts just like you, needing to talk with everyone, greet them, get along with them, taking care of everyone else around her (even those she just met), but often neglecting to take care of her need.
I do have difficulty voicing my emotions out, and furthermore, occasionally, when I am at a verge of an emotional breakdown, I can't prevent it because I can't express it. It is a very weird feeling; almost like waiting for some impending doom because I don't know how to cool the volcano in time to keep it from erupting; I know it's going to erupt, I think I can feel it, but I can't stop it. Not very helpful for damage control, I must say. :)
What is interesting is how in-control INFP's seem to look; my INFP friend is like that too; always well-composed, well-in-control of her feelings, as opposed to me, who can't figure out why I look like (got joked about it too) a christmas tree all year long because my two favorite colors happen to be red and green (back in high school). I was also bubblier than her, although my preference wouldn't say that. :)
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 11:32 PMYes, asterology is an INTJ thing, as already Oldham described schizotypia as an extreme INTJ personality, and schizotypia goes along with magical thinking.
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sun, September 13, 2009 - 11:15 PMI know that a lot of people disbelieve information given by astrologers, but to be totally honest I've observed some trends myself in the time people are born and the similarities of their personalities myself. I know that many people think that astrology isn't exactly scientific, but if you think about it, the moon helps to control the tide, and people born in winter are statistically taller than those born in summer; so it isn't too far removed to say that perhaps the time of year someone is born can have some influence over their personality.
One thing that does bother me about astrology though, is that it is so easy to nullify conflicting information gained by it. For instance, I was born with the sun in Pisces and the moon in Leo. So, according to astrology Pisces are supposed to be emotional, a softy; vague, listless, lacking in goals and submissive (generally useless, in other words :( ). This doesn't describe me at all, although astrologers would say that the reason that I am more goal oriented, assertive and desicive is because of my moon in Leo. See how we can (often) stretch these descriptions to fit almost anyone? And if it wasn't the moon sign nullifying the sun, it would probably be some other aspect of my chart or some other planet (or something else).
As someone else noted, it is interesting however that so many cultures around the world believe in astrology. Can billions of people throughout the ages be wrong? Well, maybe. But I have to note that I did read a Tibetan astrology description once about people who were born in the hour of the snake (me) and it was eerily accurate; it basically could have been written about me.
Anyway, to summarise my position on astrology, I believe that it affects peoples personalities (and maybe even health) to a small degree, but I don't believe it is anywhere near to the extent that astrologers argue.
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 5:34 AMAstrology is wishful thinking.
If I was born on the last day of a zodiac sign and became, say, a Taurus, What about those people on the other side of the globe who were in the first day of the next sign?
The special theory of relativity tells us that there is no such thing a simultaneity. Therefore, all newborn are on their own, without astral influence. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 1:47 PMIt's a frame of reference and interpretation like many others - 'wishful thinking' seems a rather biased judgement.
Are theories of temperament and personality just 'wishful thinking'?
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 3:25 PMBeing an intelligent INTJ who will not see things in black and white, I am also prone to making up my own theories and analysis on certain subjects.
So, first of all I can tell you all I'm a believer in astrology. however, I have my own theory on astrology based on the elemnts that make logical sense and the elements that don't make any sense at all.
To save time I'll get to the point.
I don't believe that the planets of the solar system affect our personalities. I don't believe we have a mercury in this, a pluto in that, a midheaven in this node from the planet zorg e.t.c e.t.c.
However, I do believe in the patterns I have seen for basically the sun sign (I reckon it's the trait of the Ego part of the brain), the moon sign (I reckon it's the trait of the ID part of the brain), and the ascendant/rising sign (I reckon it's the trait of the superego part of the brain).
After spending far too much of my free and social time looking into this (it's Saturday night and I'm not out drinking look all other people my age) I can still see no proof or logical explanaation for people to have a mars, venus, mercury, pluto, neptune and so on. It just adds way too many layers onto a personality and they all override each other. People, we're not that complicated. We all want food, water, sunlight, friendship, direction, shelter and sex but some of us are more introverted and some are more extroverted.
I am also a strong believer in Chinese Astrology. In fact, it blew my mind when I discovered the school of thought coming from the Chinese which has been around for soooooooooooo long. It's all scientifical too.
Because you are all very noticably intelligent, I would kindly ask you all not to discount astrology. It has been morphed over time into these awful horoscopes in newspapers and most of the people on astrology forums here are just drippy women looking at a way to understand why their boyfriend isn't calling them as much. So they all go on tribe and go: -
"My boyfriend is a Taurus and he's so stubborn. We don't talk to each other as much and I think he's cheating on me. Is it because I am a Pisces?"
Then you get silly astrology descriptions like
"You are a Cancer. Therefore you like to swim and you will live by the see. you also tend to walk sideways."
I love swimming and I have no trace of Cancer on my body! -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 2:45 PMso you just consider the 3 signs and ignore aspects? i've noticed sometimes stong aspects between planets account for more than the signs themselves. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 3:24 PMThe three I mentioned are the only ones I can see strongly visible in peoples personalities.
I have listened and read from people analysing charts and mentioning all this malarky about someones true node, midhaven, venus and mars, pluto in this, mercury in that and so on and so forth.
Believe it or not, I don't think people are truly THAT complicated.
I would say the physical features of people are dependant on inherited genes. However, I can see unmistakable similarites in peoples zodiac sign and what is called the moon sign.
It took me a while to believe in the rising sign but I can now see strong patterns here too.
My theory for now is best fitted with Sigmund Freuds theory that everyone has three main functions of their brain - ID (impulsive reptilain mind) Ego (more logical planned and controlled thought patterns) and SuperEgo (what it's all going to).
However, I have also found some fascinating insights to Chinese Astrology (going in as deep as the topic of Ley Lines) and I believe in this too.
But now I'm straying off topic going into this. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 7:30 PMthere have been so many times i picked a Leo just by looking at them.. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 11:59 PMYou know, interestingly enough I've picked a Scorpio so many times within minutes of meeting them. Strange! -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 4:22 AMthere's really nothin overly esoteric about astrology to me.. it's like: fruits have their seasons, and so do people! we're just crops ;D -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Fri, October 30, 2009 - 12:55 PMI'm not a crop. If I am, i want to be something complex. perhaps one that flowers, with some purple in it. -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Fri, October 30, 2009 - 3:02 PMI could see you as a field of irises.
Not morning glories though. It just doesn't suit.
-vjv :-) -
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Fri, October 30, 2009 - 6:54 PMMmm... yeah.... irises... that may work... :o)
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Fri, October 30, 2009 - 7:03 PMmaybe our souls are crops to be harvested and devoured by some, more advanced, multi-dimensional beings. Like, the happier we are in this life, the more our soul develops into something that is... tasty... for them.
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 5:21 AMI get what you say ... my point was that one can have an image about somebody's id, ego and super-ego by considering not only the signs, but also the aspects involved with sun, moon, rising; I can relate various aspects of personality, temperament and psychological patterns to prominent astrological aspects (subpersonalities?).
Why do you relate the rising sign to the super-ego? to my mind, it's actually the persona, which is something different.
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Re: Astrology: Is it an INTJ kind of thing?
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 1:57 PMI made this comment to one of my psych professors and they responded astrologers were the first psychologist lol.