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Is the ENFP the INTJ's perfect match?

topic posted Sun, May 28, 2006 - 1:54 PM by  Tanja
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Are you in a happy, long-lasting relationship and if so, what type is your partner?

I'm an INTJ with an ENFP partner and our relationship, almost five years old, is the happiest of any couple I know, despite the fact that my personality is more traditionally masculine (logical, impersonal, forceful) and his more traditionally feminine (warm, enthusiastic, giving). We simply complement each other well - and discovering the MBTI has really helped smooth the few rough patches that we have.

Any other INTJ-ENFP matches out there? How about ridiculously happy relationships between an INTJ and a different type?

If single and INTJ, do you actively search for ENFPs?

...Do you believe that one should do so? (This question I mostly ask on behalf of my single INTJ friends.)

I look forward to hearing your input. :-)
posted by:
Tanja
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  • What I find that is most interesting is what both have in common.
    It is the intuitive connection that really make this kind of relationship work.
    My most fulfilling relationships have been with ENFPs but they also have been REALLY challenging. The toughest part is realizing that you can learn from each other.
    I think it is really hard to come to that realization very early on in your life and such a relationship can really come into its own only when both are mature. (I am guessing your partner is older than you.)

    For example, When I was 25, few people could ever talk me into beleiving that analyzing the hell out of a ANY problem was best way of solvoing it.
    • Thanks for your reply, Litestorm. :-)

      "The toughest part is realizing that you can learn from each other."

      Very true and, in my experience, much harder for the INTJ than the ENFP.

      Subconsciously, I've always responded to my boyfriend's ENFP qualities of humor, empathy and universal likeability, but on a conscious level, I've only respected my own qualities (especially rationality). I've really been humbled (in a good way) by discovering the MBTI and realizing how much I appreciate - and even need - the positivity, energy and entertainment provided by my ENFP.

      In response to your guess: He's 29, so there's a 4 year age difference. And yeah, we got together early in life considering it looks like a lifetime thing. In relation to that I often wonder whether I would even have been open to dating a type so different from my own later in life. That's one of the reasons why I'd like to hear other INTJs' views on this topic.

      What didn't work out in your relationships with ENFPs, Litestorm?

      "For example, When I was 25, few people could ever talk me into beleiving that analyzing the hell out of a ANY problem was best way of solvoing it."

      Huh? Isn't analyzing the hell out of everything an INTJ trademark? *self-ironic smile*
  • I am an INTJ female married to an ENFP male - and YES we are ridiculously happy.

    While I can completely appreciate what is being said about maturity in the relationship, my husband and I found each other when I was 17 and he was 19. We were married a year later and now have 2 children. Is this something I recommend (for any relationship, regardless of type)? Not necessarily. But the beauty of our particular marriage is that we have matured and grown together. Each year, our relationship gets better, though I do have to say that I initially thought this relationship would never work because he would get his feelings hurt when I would exercise my sarcasm... which is a lot. This relationship is not without its challenges, of course, but I would have to say that I agree: INTJs and ENFPs were made for each other.
  • Yes, I have been married to an ENFP now for 12 years. We really complement each other well, and as somebody else pointed out, our intuition is good common ground. It makes it easier to forgive his inattention to details like where dirty laundry should go at times.

    He does also help me to lighten up -- something I desperately need more of. I help him focus on end results and deadlines. I'd say we are good for one another.
  • I have also found this to be the case, the sex is undeniably superior as well. As an INTJ one can identify ones own subconcious judgements about ENFPS by typing enough of them, and get to the point where visual identification is above 70 percent accuracy. I personally use this as a selective mechanism.
  • I'm an INTJ man married to an INTJ woman, and neither of us has ever been happier. We have disagreements with each other about as frequently as we have disagreements with ourselves, and for the same reasons.

    As far as I'm concerned, it's the only way to fly: everything else just turns out to be too darned much work. :)

    -- Mark
    • Hey Mark

      INTJ-INTJ, really? Strange. I don't think I've _ever_ been attracted to another INTJ, although I have several handsome male INTJ friends and acquaintances. We get along great, but the connection is totally platonic - no romantic/sexual sparks whatsoever. Don't the two of you ever get ... I don't know, bored?
      • Bored? No. This is the most unboring relationship either of us has ever had.

        I don't know that the romantic/sexual attraction has much to do with Meyers-Briggs type. I can be attracted to lots of people without having much hope of maintaining a long-term intimate relationship with them, much less successfully sharing a household and perhaps starting a family together. Both of us are in our 50's, and both of us have been married before (and we won't be starting a family; but still). We'd both tried following the random romantic sparks without regard for more fundamental compatibility, and we both now think that that was a mistake.

        So I guess my task was to find an INTJ partner with whom there was a shared attraction, and I did. We were even luckier than that, since apart from personality type, we have an enormous range of things in common -- to the point of it being ludicrous. We wouldn't have found each other in our local circle of friends and acquaintances, though. I was in Seattle and she was in San Antonio -- we met on the Internet in fact, on my INTJ-List.

        -- Mark

        P.S. Just as a point of curiosity since NF-NT relationships are being contemplated, apparently in all seriousness: Has nobody here ever heard of the Death Spiral?
        • Unsu...
           

          > P.S. Just as a point of curiosity since NF-NT relationships are being contemplated, apparently in all seriousness: Has nobody here ever heard of the Death Spiral?

          Well, I for one haven't. What is it?
          • What is with all this figure skating terminology?!?
            This has been hopping around the INTJ list for a while.
            adam.legendary.org/index.ph...th_Spiral

            I can only vouch for the veracity of Stage 1 and Stage 5

            Frankly I think that NT NF relationships have a far better long term Prospects than
            NTs have with SP or SJ.
            • The term has been used to refer to commonly observed patterns of NT/NF interaction since before any of the INTJ lists were started.

              A search for "death spiral" shows that the metaphor is used in many other domains as well.

              I'm sure that *any* relationship can be made to work, given enough energy, willpower and the creek don't rise. The question boils down to whether or not you want to place such high demands on your home life. In my case, I prefer to have a smooth, calm, pleasurable, low-maintenance home life. (I prefer that in my public life as well, but I have much less control over that.) People with boring, unambitious day jobs may get significantly different mileage -- but not many INTJ's seem to wind up in that kind of situation. *shrug*
              • Hey Mark,

                *replying to two posts in one*

                "We'd both tried following the random romantic sparks without regard for more fundamental compatibility, and we both now think that that was a mistake."

                Whoa, easy with the straw man. Who ever said anything about _random_ sparks? I've never been an advocate of blind, hormone-induced love choices without regard for fundamental compatibility. All I said was that I've never felt a romantic/sexual connection with another INTJ.

                "P.S. Just as a point of curiosity since NF-NT relationships are being contemplated, apparently in all seriousness: Has nobody here ever heard of the Death Spiral?"

                :-)
                I'm sure there are INTJ-ENFP relationships that fail because of the Death Spiral.

                I'm also sure that there are boring INTJ-INTJ relationships with little or no sex.

                All of which is irrelevant here, since we're discussing the potential happiness, not the potential doom, of various INTJ relationships, isn't it?

                "I'm sure that *any* relationship can be made to work, given enough energy, willpower and the creek don't rise. The question boils down to whether or not you want to place such high demands on your home life. In my case, I prefer to have a smooth, calm, pleasurable, low-maintenance home life."

                There are several testimonials in this thread to the happiness of INTJ-ENFP relationships, so why do you imply that all relationships with non-NTs (or is it non-INTJs?) must be high-maintenance?

                "People with boring, unambitious day jobs may get significantly different mileage"

                *laughs* Are we in kindergarten or in an INTJ forum? Come on! Let's enjoy the fact that we, as INTJs, can discuss even sensitive issues rationally. I and others in this thread claim to be in happy relationships with ENFPs, you claim to be in a happy relationship with another INTJ - let's analyze the hows and whys instead of throwing mud.
                • "Whoa, easy with the straw man. Who ever said anything about _random_ sparks? I've never been an advocate of blind, hormone-induced love choices without regard for fundamental compatibility. All I said was that I've never felt a romantic/sexual connection with another INTJ."

                  No straw man intended. I was talking about my wife and me, not about you.


                  "All of which is irrelevant here, since we're discussing the potential happiness, not the potential doom, of various INTJ relationships, isn't it?"

                  Actually, no. You had asked me point blank if my INTJ-INTJ relationship didn't get boring. That's more on the doom side than on the happiness side, right? Boredom is one of the most well-known banes of the INTJ.


                  "There are several testimonials in this thread to the happiness of INTJ-ENFP relationships, so why do you imply that all relationships with non-NTs (or is it non-INTJs?) must be high-maintenance?"

                  Experience. The happiness of those relationships does not imply that they're not high-maintenance, and none of the other posters said they weren't. Even then, there can always be exceptions. Your subject line asks if ENFP is the INTJ's perfect match, my considered answer is "no", and I've given some reasons why I think this way.


                  Mark: "People with boring, unambitious day jobs may get significantly different mileage"

                  Tanja: "*laughs* Are we in kindergarten or in an INTJ forum? Come on! Let's enjoy the fact that we, as INTJs, can discuss even sensitive issues rationally. I and others in this thread claim to be in happy relationships with ENFPs, you claim to be in a happy relationship with another INTJ - let's analyze the hows and whys instead of throwing mud."

                  What was irrational about what I said? What I say is what I mean: People with boring, unambitious day jobs may need more excitement in their home lives than the rest of us, so they may need constantly exciting, even if high-maintenance, relationships. Even if you feel that this speaks to you in particular, that doesn't mean I was throwing mud. I was pointing out that the path I was recommending may not work for everybody.

                  There's nothing irrational about noticing that there are people with boring, unambitious day jobs. There is something irrational about referring to that as mud-throwing, however.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Mark: "No straw man intended. I was talking about my wife and me, not about you."

                    I realize that, but you still misrepresented my position, hence the straw man.

                    ----------------------------------------

                    Mark: "Actually, no. You had asked me point blank if my INTJ-INTJ relationship didn't get boring. That's more on the doom side than on the happiness side, right? Boredom is one of the most well-known banes of the INTJ."

                    I asked you whether your relationship didn't get boring in order to make sure that it does indeed qualify as "ridiculously happy" and not just "less trouble than your previous relationships". (I would expect an INTJ-INTJ relationship to be extremely smooth, so I saw no reason to probe further in that area.)

                    ----------------------------------------

                    Mark: "Experience. The happiness of those relationships does not imply that they're not high-maintenance, and none of the other posters said they weren't. Even then, there can always be exceptions. Your subject line asks if ENFP is the INTJ's perfect match, my considered answer is "no", and I've given some reasons why I think this way."

                    I guess I thought low-maintenance was to be taken for granted in any INTJ's definition of a "ridiculously happy" relationship.
                    For the record, my relationship is very low-maintenance. :-)

                    How about it, Lindsay and Andrea (and Patrick?), are your relationships high- or low-maintenance?

                    ----------------------------------------

                    Mark: "People with boring, unambitious day jobs may get significantly different mileage"

                    Tanja: "*laughs* Are we in kindergarten or in an INTJ forum? Come on! Let's enjoy the fact that we, as INTJs, can discuss even sensitive issues rationally. I and others in this thread claim to be in happy relationships with ENFPs, you claim to be in a happy relationship with another INTJ - let's analyze the hows and whys instead of throwing mud."

                    Mark: "What was irrational about what I said?"

                    You could have taken seriously the claim of the other posters and myself to be in happy relationships with ENFPs and entered into a discussion about how that can be, given your own experience that such relationships are too much work. For instance, you could have asked me whether my relationship wasn't high-maintenance, just like I asked you whether your relationship wasn't boring.

                    Instead, you chose to imply that there must be something wrong with us (=that our careers must suck). In my book, that's mud-throwing.

                    ---

                    I have a suggestion: You tell me the quality and quantity of the sex you get, and I tell you what I do for a living. Deal? :-)
                    • Ah, another armchair rhetorician. Never mind, then.

                      Good luck with your love life. I was inordinately concerned with quality and quantity of sex when I was 25, too, so I'm sure nobody blames you. I don't choose to exchange details of my intimate life with strangers, though, so you'll just have to accept my statement that our relationship is ridiculously happy on *every* front.
                      • Armchair rhetorician?

                        ...I'll let our readers decide for themselves which one of us is the fairer debater.

                        ---

                        Fellow INTJs, I'm still interested in hearing about more ridiculously happy relationships. Be prepared for questions that poke at the expected soft spots of the type match though. :-)
                        • FYI ,
                          Without Exception MY relationships with NFs have been
                          what I call "high maintainence".
                          Sometimes it is worth it sometime it is not.
                          • Hey Litestorm,

                            I'm not claiming that all INTJ-ENFP matches work out (and are low-maintenance), far from it. I know several ENFPs (all female - one is my mother-in-law) whose irrationality surely dooms their chances of a relationship with an INTJ.

                            Come to think of it, I find that this thread sparks the question of whether the INTJ-ENFP match works best when the woman is the INTJ.
                            If so, could it be because women are typically raised to be more in touch with their (and others') emotions, whereas men are expected to be more rational? That would explain a lower probability of the Death Spiral occurring in such a match.

                            Litestorm (and other ENFP bashers :-)), are you in a Ridiculously Happy relationship now? I ask because... well, the people at despair.com put it succintly:

                            www.despair.com/dysfunction.html

                            No offense intended. I simply lend more credence to the testimonials of someone who has proven that they can make a relationship work.
                            • >Litestorm (and other ENFP bashers :-)),

                              My comment was not meant to be NF bashing.
                              It is just an obsevation that my relationships with NF
                              in general consume much more energy, and attention than those with
                              other NTs or even SPs. In general they are much more INTENSE.

                              I have only begun to appreciate how intense since I met an INTP ;)
                              Am I ridiculously happy? Happy Yes. Ridiculous No, but I am VERY comfortable..

                              I suspect the reason your relationship has been so succesful is
                              that your Extravertive Feeling is so well developed. (Tertiary Function in INTJs
                              Secondary in INFJs) this is Primary in ENFPs.

                              > I simply lend more credence to the testimonials of someone who has proven that they can make a relationship work.
                              My ENFP relationship worked out for quite a while , over 5 years, and our friends thought we would be togther for the long haul. I do not think it is fair to write off an experience that could have progressed further than your own relationship. Do not reject data because it does not fit into your model.(Ouch Im sounding like an INTP again))
                              • Hey Litestorm,

                                Don't worry, I won't reject data just because it doesn't fit my model. :-)

                                Perhaps I should state clearly that I see several potential pitfalls in the INTJ-ENFP match. The Death Spiral is one, another is conflict between fanatic INTJ Judging tendencies versus ENFP discomfort with logic-based conclusions.

                                It is my hypothesis, however, based on my own experience, that when the individuals are well-rounded (when the INTJ is in touch with his/her own feelings and those of others, and when the ENFP respects rationality), the relationship match is wonderfully, exhilaratingly complementary - the optimal match, in fact. (Btw, it is Extroverted Intuition that is the ENFP's dominant function, not Extroverted Feeling.)

                                My objective when starting this thread was thus partly to see if my own relationship was a fluke - apparently not, since there are testimonials to other ridiculously happy INTJ-ENFP matches - and partly to see if there are INTJs out there in spectacular relationships with other types. So far, I have yet to be convinced of the latter. You yourself, Litestorm, mentioned in your first post that your relationships with ENFPs have been the most fulfilling you have had, and you also state that your current relationship is a notch below ridiculously happy. As for Mark and Leane, well, they do protest too much.

                                ---

                                Any other INTJs out there willing to contribute to my data collection or perhaps wanting to challenge my reasoning? I'm all ears. :-)
                                • Tanja,
                                  >>Happy Yes Ridiculous No
                                  >you also state that your current relationship is a notch below ridiculously happy
                                  I do not think what I said implies that...
                                  Being Ridiculous I would not think is an Improvement on being Happy... ;p
                                  Maybe your ENFP partner may think it is....
                                  I guess you did not "Get" my drift.

                                  Here is what I mean by Ridiculous :
                                  See Leane's post about the spoon.
                                  intj.tribe.net/thread/ed9...a49874c9c4f
                                  ROTFL

                                  While there might be some hyperbole in this, you would not believe
                                  how many conversations evolved similarly with my ENFP...
                                  And they would all end with some reason to go out somewhere.
                                  It has been a great change of pace to relax at HOME and
                                  discuss books with my INTP girlfriend.

                                  As I'm really just getting settled in my new relationship and can not be sure of all the pro and cons yet. (I'll have to test them) I'll keep you posted especially if I start to judge this is a better fit.

                                  As for my Jung typology function error.. sorry for dispensing wrong information; I accidentally clicked the wrong link and transferred the wrong info from that page.... Damn pain when you are in a hurry posting during lunch. It is tough to maintain your credibility when you are sloppy with the details like that....

                                  For what it is worth I have read that INTPs tend to stay faithful to INTJs for longer than any other type. (Hmm, I have to find that site again) Additionally INTJs tend to be more committed to their relationships and as a result it is normally the other partner that initiates the breakup.

                                  I would definitely like to open this up to other INTJ pairings.
                                  Anyone else like to evangelize about their pairing.
                                  What about the common INTJ pairings with ENTPs
                                  • Hey Litestorm

                                    I guess I'm still not getting your drift. :-) How can you describe the most fulfilling relationships you have had as ridiculous? To me, that is contradictory. A ridiculous relationship (or a relationship with a ridiculous partner) would not be fulfilling in my book.

                                    ---

                                    Hold on, Leane actually had to go ENFP-bash in a different thread after reading this one? ...I guess I hit a softer spot than I thought. :-)

                                    ---

                                    And of course I join you in your wish to open up the thread: Any other INTJs out there care to contribute their relationship experiences? ...Or perhaps I should say dare to? *self-ironic smile*
                                    • Unsu...
                                       
                                      Well, I'm an INTJ, and I'm not entirely sure whether my love-life is the result of not finding the right partners (two ESFJs), or simply not being able to be happy in a relation. I have never felt deeper despair than in relations, I always seem to get out a lot less than I invest, and what I get out seems simply not important. I do have meaningful friendships, I have many friends, some close, some less close, but the thought of having to share my life and privacy with another human just seems... unpleasant.
                                      • Hmm... I actually have held a similar if not identical belief to Bart's for quite a while; until now, it seemed as though it was far too absurd/inhuman for me to tell anyone because it seems that almost everyone at my age (18) desires some kind of close relationship with others. Of course this is frequently at their own peril and dismay as early relationships have a tendency to end rather abruptly . However, to me, relationships where the partners share their lives and privacy is alien, and I often question why other humans are drawn to such behavior. Again, perhaps it is a result of failed close-relationship experiments on my part, but even those have not crossed the line into "sharing my life and privacy," and I still was unable to understand why anyone would subject themself to such interaction. Maybe my INTJ-ness/other behavior/life experiences have hindered my ability to grow basic human instincts such as the urge for close relationships, or I just havent hit sufficient desperation, or, perhaps more likely, I am just a lunatic (If you deem this to be true, pay no attention to my above statement).
                      • I'm Mark's wife. I rejoined this group specifically to answer to this thread. My answer is:
                        "what he said". Iedereen heeft voldoende werk met in zijn eigen tuintje te wieden, so
                        to each his own.

                        I have a lot of ENFP friends, but for a close working/fun relationship like a marraige, INTJ was the only way to go for me.

                        Leane Roffey Line, Ph.D.
  • Hello, I am actually an ENFP female, but this tribe was the only one that carried this post. anyway, I am not in a relationship with but I have somewhat of a "crush" on an INTJ. Just so you can all have background I'll tell you the story...bascially, we both joined an internet common interest group, and out of this group we formed a separate friendship... the two of us have talked nearly everyday by way of instant messenger for the last 18months.

    Right away, I was fascinated by this guy, but i could tell and still can tell, that he would be freaked out at the thought of meeting a partener on the internet. It's obvious he would think it illogical to formulate a relationship where we are nearly 2,000 miles apart.

    But the basic point is that during the course of our "friendship" I can tell he's formed an interest in me, but does not act on it. And even though I have never met him, I am sometimes thankful, and sometimes blown away at how easy it is to talk to him or be myself. But I also sometimes get annoyed or get my feelings hurt by his sarcasm or lack of reciprocating emotion.

    i can understand how a relationship for INTJ/ENFP can be considered high maintainence on both ends...I require emotion attention and he requires sometimes a gentle stroking of the ego.

    but it's fun.
    • I found your post so interesting and like my own experience that I needed to join! I had also met someone online who was an INTJ and well we hit it off as they say haha...and now I'm the happiest ENFP there can be because we're engaged and I wouldn't change a thing! It's not each meeting someone online who is also so far away but it's worth it! we've had a long distant relationship for 4 years but that shall end shortly :) Hope your INTJ stands up for what he wants and makes a move!
  • I actively search for ESFPs. ENFPs have extraverted intuition, which would not be easy to get along with for someone with introverted intuition.

    The introverted feeling-extroverted thinking pairing would make it possible to get along very well on the creative side, but on the rigid side there is going to a certain amount of contrariness, making it really hard work to agree on anything in the long run.
  • he
    he
    offline 0
    I'm not sure about perfect... attracted to each other? it definitely seems so. I am an ENFP female married to an INTJ male. I do need a rational personality type or bills would not get paid, children may not get fed, and the house would be in a total state of disarray almost constantly. I will say however that he also definitely gets on my nerves which is expected in a marriage or any long, drawn out, committed relationship that we ENFPs may not be so great at.

    He is overbearing and not quite as openminded as I... which annoys me. He tries to enforce his own rules, which I cannot stand. We do not agree on how to raise our children. My mother is also an INTJ and I despised the way she brought us up. So I see him being all INTJ-ish, and it takes me back to thinking about how much I dislike some of those traits.

    It's not all bad though. We do complement each other in many ways. We make each other think and can usually have really interesting conversation. I am attracted to his stability and rationale... his ability to keep a cool head under pressure. He is attracted to my adventurous and interesting ways.

    I also appreciate that while he is not the emotional one, he does not make fun of me for being that way. He will cuddle me and love me when I watch shows and infomercials about third world country children and bawl or when I watch shows about animal cruelty or the greenhouse effect and global warming.

    While sometimes it does bother me that he does not show emotions or become easily excited when I'm nearly ready to pee my pants with glee, the thought that he is too shy or reserved or feels stupid etc to let his emotions out (which I know everyone has) makes me feel ok. I secretly think to myself that he's the one being the baby even if I openly cry. lol

    In a lot of ways, we are totally different... I guess the intuitive side is what keeps us together at times. It comes in handy. We complement each other in a lot of ways as well. I will say though that as many times when things are arcticly cold... they can get just as fiery hot.

    We put up with a lot of each other's bull :) Somehow we manage to work it out. I'm usually the one to say I'm sorry first though simply because he and his INTJ ways are too babyish and right-fighting to admit his errors... but usually I don't mind because he's so cute... and he cleans my house :D
  • you INTJs took over with your debates. haha. good thing an ENFP is here to chill you guys out!
    just kidding. it's a wonder how you guys can do that so rationally and objectively without getting offended. (in general too im sure and not just online)

    i think ENFP and INTJ pairings are ideal. i dont understand it when N people actively search for an S. WHY? im with you tanja on this one. i think if a person has some measure of self-awareness and tries to work toward being more well-rounded, it would only be natural for an ENFP to want an INTJ. the worst is when an ENFP girl marries an ISTJ man thinking one day he will display levels of depth and intuitive thought but alas, it does not come. i was miserable dating an ISTJ guy for a year.

    i LOVE INTJs. (except for extreme ones). =)
    • Bev
      Bev
      offline 0
      Hi All,

      I am INTJ female but have mellowed in my autumn years; recently retired after LOOOOONG years of obsessive government work and realizing that I am turning 60 this year, have never been married, and am really missing companionship and intimacy.

      I had an online and phone relationship all last fall with this guy who is either ENFP or INFP; not sure which; but when we finally met a few weeks ago, it was a variation of the death spiral( love to learn new things) and I am really hurting, not just about him but about the life experiences I have missed.

      I want to try again- have lost a lot of weight, am sprucing up my image, and looking to find the best shots I have at connecting with someone before I'm through with this world. This guy was warm, insightful, empathic and I was swept off my feet. WHen we met he was closed, self protective, although brilliant and made me laugh, but I felt shut out of that personal connection and couldnt revive it. I come from a very dysfunctional family, no father, narcissistic mother and never learned great relationship skills. though I do have a few close friendships that I hope will be a building block for something deeper.

      So should I look for ENFPs? where do they hang out? How does one calm one s own anxiety when the P takes over? I believed all his pronouncements and was shocked when they are forgotten or replaced by some other declaration later. I don't have any problem apologising except that it doesn't get me anywhere with him. Maybe its just this guy? He is 65, divorced and we had so much in common. Then he abruptly told me our values are too different. Which, given all the evidence, I disagree with but decided to break it off because I couldnt stand the anxiety.

      ANy words of wisdom?

      I hope to hang out on this board and learn more about my type and how to manage it better!

      Bev
      • I could so relate to your post, Bev. I found myself in pretty much the same situation as you. I put off relationships for many many years and focused on my job instead. I also worked in government and also invested myself in an online relationship with an ENFP. That turned into a real life relationship which eventually soured. I don't know why it went bad. As INTJs we think we have to understand everything. When men don't give us a reason, it's likely because they don't want to hurt our feelings. The average man is not likely to be accustomed to an INTJ female who wants the brutal and direct truth. We can master anything, but the unknown gives us great anxiety.

        I have no idea how to meet men anymore, so I'm using the online approach. I have a tendency to rule people out too early. I'm making a concerted effort not to do that anymore.
    • I married an ESFJ girl and part fo the reason for that was that socially speaking, she was adored by the vast majority of my acquaintances. I was unaware of the importance of having a common avenue of intuitive communication and that int eh end really did us in and lead to distrust. I hoped for the longest time she would show that depth of intuitive thought we intuitive types love, but alas it did not come and I was deeply disappointed and felt as though my real self, the deep intuitive thinker, was not understood, nor appreciated. I don't buy into matching model presented by socionics. Not to mention, I have noticed a trend; Siblings tend share either intuitive or sensing communication styles. Thus its what we are most familiar with when growing up and tend to naturally be best at communicating with.
  • I jsut googled enfp vs intj and this came up!

    I am a Female ENFP with a male primary INTJ. It is the most ridiculously satisfying relationships i have EVER had. We have been together 6months and already live together, went to Burning Man together, went to Harbin, CAnada for the holidays..etc....

    Finally found someone who can "keep up" with me mentally..it's truly amazing, spiritual, philosophical and challenging to be together...I am so freakin in love...the sex is absoltuley amazing and we are both very mature (both had serious LTR before we met, both ,lived on our own when we met). Fell in love instantly, i think it took 3 days to say i love you to eachother....

    I have no doubt we will be together a long time..and will make and do amazing things within our time together....

    total bliss :) for the most part lol.
  • Unsu...
     
    I am an ENFP female, and I have a little crush on an INTJ male. We definately hit it off, but there's also a some resistance too. I think perhaps he would rather be with an "S" of some kind, to bring him in tune with the sensual world, and of course help to lighten up on life, since NFs and NTs have everything in the world to talk about, over and over again in new ways. The abstraction can be intense. Also, I think most men are a little intimidated by the ENFP woman.
    • Tim
      Tim
      offline 0
      I'm an INTJ male. I've been married to my (ENFP) wife for 20 years so, yeah It definitely works. The talking /discussing thing ....we do it all the time. This is a relationship that keeps getting better. My wife is so unbelievably perceptive about people and I always ask for her input. We learn from each other continuously. A sort of ying and yang thing I suppose, two halves becoming a pretty bullet-proof whole.

      My thoughts:
      INTJs, let your ENFP partner be your sensor for assessing peoples emotions and so on. Go with their opinion and DON'T forget to compliment them on their perceptiveness.

      ENFPs, if an INTJ says something is definite, believe it and go along with it, no questions. If an INTJ is not 100% sure they'll say so and even give a rating say 80% or a maybe or a could-be. Simply rely on their judgment it'll make them very happy, and end futile debate about something they see or know so clearly.
      • "ENFPs, if an INTJ says something is definite, believe it and go along with it, no questions. If an INTJ is not 100% sure they'll say so and even give a rating say 80% or a maybe or a could-be. Simply rely on their judgment it'll make them very happy, and end futile debate about something they see or know so clearly. "

        I'm a ENFP female and, wow, that sounds sooo final. I'm so used to fluidity of meaning. That will take some adjustment. Hope my crush is understanding enough to be lenient in the begining.

        And I'm not much of a "no questions asked" kinda girl unless I trust the person. And I have horrible memory :( Have I been crossed-off already as viable? :P
  • Ok, I guess I'll bite. (as one of the INTJ people)

    Honestly, I've never really even been around a significant number of "F" males, much less had relationships with them. From my experience, the J/P thing is rather nice, and most of my more long term relationships have been with INTPs I think. I actually personally prefer an I to an E in social situations. Maybe this is because I'm not a strong I, or because the Es I have been around are so strong that I'm actually left uncomfortable and/or alone at parties with them.

    Personally I've never really used the Myers-Briggs thing to "screen" people, more as a curiosity once I'm in a relationship. I find the T/F thing interesting, but just haven't had enough experience to say one way or another. I find I prefer to be with people who understand me to a reasonably high extent, and it seems that other INTs tend to fit the build. But prefering people who understand me may be a personality quirk that's totally separate from the Myers-briggs thing! =)
    • "I actually personally prefer an I to an E in social situations. Maybe this is because I'm not a strong I, or because the Es I have been around are so strong that I'm actually left uncomfortable and/or alone at parties with them. "

      Same here! From the time I was twelve years old, I knew I needed another introvert. Married a fellow INTJ, and we are wonderful together. The ENFP men I know would have been all wrong for me. I'm just not attracted to extroverts romantically... never have been. It feels too pushy for me, most of the time.... like they are trying to push me into being someone I'm not, or like they are judging me as weaker and incompetent because they are more social than me. That, and I need lots of one-on-one time with my husband; I immensely dislike groups of more than three. An extrovert would have grown tired of that rather quickly.

      So, ENFP is not every INTJ's perfect match. Definitely not mine, nor my husband's. :)
      • So, I am kind of new to this using personality types to find significant others. Let me tell you my situation. I am a male INTJ, mid-thirties. I was married to an E/ISTP, and was faithfully married for 10 years. We did not live together for 8 years, due to job constraints, etc., and are now splitting up. Not angry at each other, just realize there is no relationship. So, during the hardest part of working through the break-up, I am at a very vulnerable point, and develop a "crush" on an ENFP. So this has carried on for some time, about 6 months or so. I just see her in the mornings in the store she works at, but sometimes I (almost) know there is a connection there, before I guess that she might have this effect on everyone. It is something she does with the eye contact, and inflection in her voice-- very subtle, but VERY effective. When she does get excited, she animates very well. My heart melts every time. I have asked politely to talk to her sometime, but over time discovered that she is currently involved with someone else. So, this creature is VERY electrifiying to me, especially because you want what you can't have. Her eyes light up when we talk sometimes, and this energizes me. But then the next day, she ignores me. These times devestate me.

        So, here are my questions. (1) What is going on? (2) Are all ENFP's this way? (I tested her, I know she is one.) and (3) I want her. How do I get her?
        • FYI: whenever someone tells me they have ENFP preferences I am immediately suspicious, because more often than not they turn out to have ESFP preferences instead. (Since the official MBTI is only 70% accurate, I wouldn't rely on the "test" to decide.)

          According to many experts, ESFP is considered the ideal mate for INTJs. (And some experts use Bill & Hilary Clinton as evidence of that combination.) In this pattern, the dominant extraverted Sensing of the ESFP is highly attractive to the inferior extraverted Sensing of the INTJ. As John Beebe says, "they cradle the anima gently."

          The counter-intuitive and Jungian thing to know is that what you want in her is the thing you want in YOU. Energetically, it is a projection, and you are merely resonating to it. (I'm sure that's not what you want to hear, but there it is nonetheless...)

          I've written an extensive article on the topic of type combinations in relationship. You might like to read it here:
          typeinsights.blogspot.com/2007_...e.html

          I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts.

          -Vicky Jo
          • Hi Vicky Jo!

            First, I want to let you know how happy I am that someone so qualified has replied to my plea.

            Second, don't worry about what you think I want to hear. You may be suprised. For now, let's just explore a discussion on some level, see where it takes us, and draw our conclusions from it afterwards.

            Third, (and I am nit picking, here, so don't take it too seriously, but I have to point out the "implied" logical flaw), if the MBTI is ~70% accurate, and the people who tell you they have ENFP preferences have taken it (and I am assuming these are the samples you are refering to), shouldn't ~ 30% of them be wrong? From these thirty percent, some of the errors will be divided across the four letters, so the N-S error should be much less than 30%. So shouldn't they be right more often than not (if the 70% rule-of-thumb holds true)? Anyway, point taken, and it doesn't matter. I understand what you mean.

            Now, I think we have much to chat about, so let's get started by attacking the most intriguing things to me first.

            (1) Seduction. I did read your article. I think I definitely am being seduced, and I like it a lot. I do not think it is intentional on her part, or even that she knows she is doing it. I love the intoxication because it make me feel alive, although they are also followed by lows in an limerant type relationship. I would be curious to know more about your intoxicating relationship you had for a number of years-- What it was like for you, what were the good things you liked, why do you think it ultimately fell apart. I want to try one. I suspect these can be very nurturing and fun if with the right person, or very distructive emotionally and psycologically if the power yielded to one is abused over the other. Do you agree, and can you elaborate on your specific instances? You can take this offline with me if you want. If it is too personal, just say so-- I won't be offended.

            I find your comments on seduction from BeeBe most intriguing. So am I to conclude that, according to BeeBe, and putting all ethics aside for the moment, if I want this girl (or any romantic interest), then I should focus on playing to their fifth process? Regardless or what my "type" is, if I know their type, then if I am "skilled" enough, I should be able to "wing it" long enough for a seductive one night stand? (Relax, I am not like this, and have no interest in it; I am just trying to understand the meaning of what was said, and exactly how seduction works-- I am INTJ, but have leaned more closely toward the P side over the last few years).

            I am also curious-- why the fifth process? What is most significant about it in relation to seduction?

            (2) I do like Lenore Thomson's book, Personality Type: An Owner's Manual. Are you familiar with this one? What do you think of it?

            (3) I did "test" her, but also she went over the portraits she was closest to so she could decide for herself. She agreed with my assessment, which I did not inform her of ahead of time. I should point out that she did test almost borderline between S-N, so maybe her sensate skills are highly developed, but with a little more natural preference toward N. Anyway, I do believe she is a little more N than S. So does she. Maybe you can elaborate on the broader context as to why you think this could be wrong. It looks to me like there is a ~70% chance we are right. For now, and the sake of the discussion, let's assume we are right here unless you have reason to differenitate for the sake of a specific point.

            (4) I will reply more later, got to go. Let's start with the above. Some of this may be disorganized, I am rushing this through. Please don't be offended.

            Thanks!
            • Hi Vicky Jo!

              *** Hi, Wyatt!

              First, I want to let you know how happy I am that someone so qualified has replied to my plea.

              *** I'm glad to hear it! I also don't know how to quote somebody on these boards, so I'm relying on asterisks to set my comments apart.

              Second, don't worry about what you think I want to hear. You may be suprised. For now, let's just explore a discussion on some level, see where it takes us, and draw our conclusions from it afterwards.

              *** Your comment amuses me -- since my preferences are for INFJ, I'm trying to "take care of your feelings" I guess. It's part of my pattern. Thanks for giving me explicit permission not to.

              Third, (and I am nit picking, here, so don't take it too seriously, but I have to point out the "implied" logical flaw), if the MBTI is ~70% accurate, and the people who tell you they have ENFP preferences have taken it (and I am assuming these are the samples you are refering to), shouldn't ~ 30% of them be wrong? From these thirty percent, some of the errors will be divided across the four letters, so the N-S error should be much less than 30%. So shouldn't they be right more often than not (if the 70% rule-of-thumb holds true)? Anyway, point taken, and it doesn't matter. I understand what you mean.

              *** Since extraverted Thinking is my 7th process, I am not very good at it and will not play the numbers game with you. (It's like teaching a pig to fly -- it doesn't work and it just annoys the pig. ;-D) But what I will say is that the 70% is a statistical result printed in the MBTI manual. As a facilitator, what we know it translates to is that sometimes all the letters in the code are right, and sometimes the letters are ALL wrong. Sometimes one or two of the letters are wrong. Facilitators are trained to help an individual find their best-fit pattern -- that's where the real work of the facilitation comes in (and not many people are very good at it, truthfully). Just handing over the result ("test-and-tell") is NOT good facilitation.

              *** Two other pieces to know are that people who work with the Temperament model realize that certain types aren't as self-aware and thus as good at identifying their own pattern -- and Improviser (aka "Artisan") is usually one of those patterns. Thus (for instance) my ISFP brother-in-law actually "tests" ENFJ. The other piece to know is that people who use the Temperament model have complained that certain questions on the MBTI do not "catch" Improviser types. The Sensing questions lean toward Stabilizer (aka "Guardian") outcomes, not Improviser. So ESFPs often get ENFP results. (And it's common for INTPs and INTJs to be switched with one another.)

              *** And of course we ALL use all of the processes -- if you didn't have "well-developed sensate skills," you wouldn't be able to read this right now, or type on your keyboard. So be careful about diminishing Sensing, when it is a VERY strong process in your own pattern.

              Now, I think we have much to chat about, so let's get started by attacking the most intriguing things to me first.

              (1) Seduction. I did read your article. I think I definitely am being seduced, and I like it a lot. I do not think it is intentional on her part, or even that she knows she is doing it. I love the intoxication because it make me feel alive, although they are also followed by lows in an limerant type relationship. I would be curious to know more about your intoxicating relationship you had for a number of years-- What it was like for you, what were the good things you liked, why do you think it ultimately fell apart. I want to try one. I suspect these can be very nurturing and fun if with the right person, or very distructive emotionally and psycologically if the power yielded to one is abused over the other. Do you agree, and can you elaborate on your specific instances? You can take this offline with me if you want. If it is too personal, just say so-- I won't be offended.

              *** My relationship with an ENFP formed around our creative partnership. And I would say that's the part that never stopped working. Where the relationship failed was most likely around sex -- I never felt he was sexually interested in me. (And in our patterns, extraverted Sensing is my inferior/aspirational, while it was his 8th. So we simply didn't jive around that combination.) I also felt he was pretty ego-centric with his introverted Feeling. He also wanted children and I didn't. There were further issues around money (probably more Se, actually). I wanted "things" and he wanted to be romantically poor and starving. We were in our twenties, so we were both pretty immature back then. If I knew then what I know now about type, we probably could have stayed together -- the relationship lasted 8 years, and the creative partnership would have continued had he not married a jealous witch. ;-D

              *** On the other hand, it's possible I needed to leave, because I became very ego-identified with him and was living HIS life rather than my own. I needed to go become my own person.

              I find your comments on seduction from BeeBe most intriguing. So am I to conclude that, according to BeeBe, and putting all ethics aside for the moment, if I want this girl (or any romantic interest), then I should focus on playing to their fifth process? Regardless or what my "type" is, if I know their type, then if I am "skilled" enough, I should be able to "wing it" long enough for a seductive one night stand? (Relax, I am not like this, and have no interest in it; I am just trying to understand the meaning of what was said, and exactly how seduction works-- I am INTJ, but have leaned more closely toward the P side over the last few years).

              *** Beebe talks about "seduction" being a danger for him as a psychiatrist. His partner has ISFJ prefs, and they seem very happy together -- but Beebe knows that when he encounters IN_J in his practice, the giant iNtuiting they do together can cause him to lose his head if he's not careful.

              *** I feel that's as much as I should say about it this moment? And let you take that in. (I'm feeling there is some "seduction" around the term "seduction.")

              I am also curious-- why the fifth process? What is most significant about it in relation to seduction?

              *** When your dominant process finds its "other half," the sense of wholeness is intoxicating. You are of "one mind," one accord. It is the most inflated fantastic sense of being, where everything is right with the world and you are all-powerful together.

              (2) I do like Lenore Thomson's book, Personality Type: An Owner's Manual. Are you familiar with this one? What do you think of it?

              *** I like Lenore's book mostly, and I like Lenore herself. It seems to me her book appeals to folks with Te somewhere in their preferences -- NTJs, NFPs. I know she has some regrets about how she wrote it, since she was giving in to what her publisher asked for. I prefer Linda Berens' books myself if I had to choose. I'm interested to see what Lenore writes next, since she seems to have been influenced by Dr. Beebe's theories, and that will no doubt color her next project.

              (3) I did "test" her, but also she went over the portraits she was closest to so she could decide for herself. She agreed with my assessment, which I did not inform her of ahead of time. I should point out that she did test almost borderline between S-N, so maybe her sensate skills are highly developed, but with a little more natural preference toward N. Anyway, I do believe she is a little more N than S. So does she. Maybe you can elaborate on the broader context as to why you think this could be wrong. It looks to me like there is a ~70% chance we are right. For now, and the sake of the discussion, let's assume we are right here unless you have reason to differenitate for the sake of a specific point.

              *** It's important to say that NONE of the MBTI-style tests measure "strength" of a preference. All the numbers reflect is how SURE you are that something is your preference. In this case, such a low S-N score would suggest Sensing was VERY likely the best-fit, given what I wrote above.

              *** If you are able to "test" her easily, you might wish to administer a Temperament assessment: to see what that gives you, although the lack of self-awareness would still present a problem:
              www.notjustapaycheck.com/caree...h.html

              *** It's important to BE CAREFUL not to imply any of the temperaments or types is *better* than another. In the first place, it isn't true. In the second place, Improvisers in particular are brilliant at telling you what you want to hear. So if you think "N" is better, they will be as "N" as can be for you. :-O

              (4) I will reply more later, got to go. Let's start with the above. Some of this may be disorganized, I am rushing this through. Please don't be offended.

              *** The trouble with type is that the answers are never simple. And the quickest answers are usually wrong. :-(

              *** As a coach, I also wonder whether this is a situation where you can't "think" your way through, but must instead "feel" your way through. Perhaps that's what the Universe wants you to develop now. ;-)

              -Vicky Jo
              www.TypeInsights.com
              • Hi Vicky Jo!!

                I'm glad to hear it! I also don't know how to quote somebody on these boards, so I'm relying on asterisks to set my comments apart.

                ** Fine, I will adopt your style. Then we will be consistant.

                Since extraverted Thinking is my 7th process, I am not very good at it and will not play the numbers game with you. (It's like teaching a pig to fly -- it doesn't work and it just annoys the pig. ;-D) But what I will say is that the 70% is a statistical result printed in the MBTI manual. As a facilitator, what we know it translates to is that sometimes all the letters in the code are right, and sometimes the letters are ALL wrong. Sometimes one or two of the letters are wrong. Facilitators are trained to help an individual find their best-fit pattern -- that's where the real work of the facilitation comes in (and not many people are very good at it, truthfully). Just handing over the result ("test-and-tell") is NOT good facilitation.

                ** Very good. Point taken. I defer to your expertise, here, but...

                Two other pieces to know are that people who work with the Temperament model realize that certain types aren't as self-aware and thus as good at identifying their own pattern -- and Improviser (aka "Artisan") is usually one of those patterns. Thus (for instance) my ISFP brother-in-law actually "tests" ENFJ. The other piece to know is that people who use the Temperament model have complained that certain questions on the MBTI do not "catch" Improviser types. The Sensing questions lean toward Stabilizer (aka "Guardian") outcomes, not Improviser. So ESFPs often get ENFP results. (And it's common for INTPs and INTJs to be switched with one another.)

                ** ... VJ, she wears colored hair every day-- blue hair, purple sometimes... or red, green, or orange other times, which looks completely random to me, not that she doesn't have some rhyme or reason in there somewhere-- I just don't know what it is. She attends Faerie Festivals, Pirate Day, Rennesaince Festivals, and every other Weird Festival there is in full Dress, and she has quite an imagination on her. When she animates, it is not physical so much as the drama in her voice, which makes her seem very animated to me. I am pretty sure she leans more N, though probably not as N as I am, even with her scoring so close between S and N.

                And of course we ALL use all of the processes -- if you didn't have "well-developed sensate skills," you wouldn't be able to read this right now, or type on your keyboard. So be careful about diminishing Sensing, when it is a VERY strong process in your own pattern.

                ** Point taken. I should have used the word "preference" I guess.

                My relationship with an ENFP formed around our creative partnership. And I would say that's the part that never stopped working. Where the relationship failed was most likely around sex -- I never felt he was sexually interested in me. (And in our patterns, extraverted Sensing is my inferior/aspirational, while it was his 8th. So we simply didn't jive around that combination.) I also felt he was pretty ego-centric with his introverted Feeling. He also wanted children and I didn't. There were further issues around money (probably more Se, actually). I wanted "things" and he wanted to be romantically poor and starving. We were in our twenties, so we were both pretty immature back then. If I knew then what I know now about type, we probably could have stayed together -- the relationship lasted 8 years, and the creative partnership would have continued had he not married a jealous witch. ;-D

                ** Thank you sooo much for sharing this with me. So, the break up was caused by differences in personal ambitions and not understanding how to reconcile them between what each wanted? If you want to read about one of my early relationships, please go to the bottom of the page at enfp.tribe.net/thread/c07...9c1d5d33e21 .

                On the other hand, it's possible I needed to leave, because I became very ego-identified with him and was living HIS life rather than my own. I needed to go become my own person.

                ** Mmmm. So, now that you ARE your own person... how do you feel about intoxicating relationships? Do you want another one? I do.

                Beebe talks about "seduction" being a danger for him as a psychiatrist. His partner has ISFJ prefs, and they seem very happy together -- but Beebe knows that when he encounters IN_J in his practice, the giant iNtuiting they do together can cause him to lose his head if he's not careful.

                I feel that's as much as I should say about it this moment? And let you take that in. (I'm feeling there is some "seduction" around the term "seduction.")

                ** I interpret "seduction" to mean a process of "drawing one in". I think the intoxicating element is a contributor to one letting down their guard, so that their submissiveness allows them to be drawn in a little more easily. Then there are definitely more strong minded versus weak minded people. But I think we all can be strong minded or weak minded in some way or another. So, in your example above, when BeeBe is "seduced" by IN_J types from the giant iNtuiting they do together, I think that it means he would be much more "willing" to follow the IN_J's lead if they "steer" it correctly. This is a type of power, one person over another, is it not? So what happens when two are "seduced" by one another, and there is no consistant lead? Two N's may have trouble staying grounded if one cannot be the anchor? Also, can there be a mutually intoxicating relationship? I do not confuse intoxication with seduction, only that it seems one should correlate with the other... i.e., show up in many of the same places.

                ** Now, please, oh, please tell me more!

                When your dominant process finds its "other half," the sense of wholeness is intoxicating. You are of "one mind," one accord. It is the most inflated fantastic sense of being, where everything is right with the world and you are all-powerful together.

                ** YES!!!!! I want it sooooo baddlly!!! So, then, does it mean that theoretically, there is only mutual intoxication with only one type? I want THAT type for myself. I can sift through the real life realities/non-idealities that deviate from theory if I know the types to look for.

                I like Lenore's book mostly, and I like Lenore herself. It seems to me her book appeals to folks with Te somewhere in their preferences -- NTJs, NFPs. I know she has some regrets about how she wrote it, since she was giving in to what her publisher asked for. I prefer Linda Berens' books myself if I had to choose. I'm interested to see what Lenore writes next, since she seems to have been influenced by Dr. Beebe's theories, and that will no doubt color her next project.

                ** I wish I could meet her. It would be interesting to see who writes these books. My heart beats very fast thinking about it. I will go see what Ms. Berens books are about. I do like Lenore's organization.

                It's important to say that NONE of the MBTI-style tests measure "strength" of a preference. All the numbers reflect is how SURE you are that something is your preference. In this case, such a low S-N score would suggest Sensing was VERY likely the best-fit, given what I wrote above.

                ** Mmmmm. Yeah. Point taken, and you have enlightened me on the meaning of the scoring. But given what I have added above, let's revisit this, shall we?

                If you are able to "test" her easily, you might wish to administer a Temperament assessment: to see what that gives you, although the lack of self-awareness would still present a problem:
                www.notjustapaycheck.com/caree...h.html

                ** Sorry. I am not able to test her easily. I had to ask for her help for filling out an excel spreadsheet that I wrote up to automatically sum up the scores for a middle school project I am working on to help identify potential preferences for science and engineering. I used her as a guinie pig for testing my program, but honestly I could have tested it without her. i reeeaallllyyy wanted to see how she tested out.

                It's important to BE CAREFUL not to imply any of the temperaments or types is *better* than another. In the first place, it isn't true. In the second place, Improvisers in particular are brilliant at telling you what you want to hear. So if you think "N" is better, they will be as "N" as can be for you. :-O

                ** Oh. I did not know. I guess I natually assume every one is objective like i am.

                The trouble with type is that the answers are never simple. And the quickest answers are usually wrong. :-(

                ** I don't think she rushed through her test. I took her two days to fill out 70 questions. i saw a lot of erase marks on several of the questions. She reaaalllyyy thought this through. i could tell by the questions she was asking me.

                As a coach, I also wonder whether this is a situation where you can't "think" your way through, but must instead "feel" your way through. Perhaps that's what the Universe wants you to develop now. ;-)

                ** Touche' !!! ;oD But let's start with what I am good at, first (the thinking part). I can tell you that my love life is most important for my stability. I do not do well with my feelings here when I am ungrounded, and it affects EVERY aspect of my life. So feeling my way though is fine, as long as my brain is the boss. Otherwise, there is no telling where I will end up! The trouble is that my brain cannot be the boss when my feelings are committing mutiny against it.

                ** So, next set of questions:

                (5) What must I do to win her over? Please give me an answer for ENFP, and then one for whatever you insist she is. Then I can try both. Seduction sounds like a good approach to me... especially since she has been doing it to me. I should use my introverted intuition on her? how do I do it? I want her so badly. I feel like that squirrel on ICE AGE... you know the one that keeps trying to get the nut, but can't quite get it?

                (6) Suppose for whatever reason, that she just is absolutely not interested in me. Like the remote possiblity that I am not sexy enough for her, or that she might be a little younger than what I originally thought (Iike maybe 19, which means she may lack some pertinent life experiences). Where do i find more ENFP's? Where do they congregate at? How to i approach one without sounding like a complete nut?
                Do you have any other thoughts on this?

                (7) gotta go for now. Let's pick this up again tomorrow.

                Wyatt
                • Hi Vicky Jo!!

                  *** Hey!

                  Since extraverted Thinking is my 7th process, I am not very good at it and will not play the numbers game with you. (It's like teaching a pig to fly -- it doesn't work and it just annoys the pig. ;-D) But what I will say is that the 70% is a statistical result printed in the MBTI manual. As a facilitator, what we know it translates to is that sometimes all the letters in the code are right, and sometimes the letters are ALL wrong. Sometimes one or two of the letters are wrong. Facilitators are trained to help an individual find their best-fit pattern -- that's where the real work of the facilitation comes in (and not many people are very good at it, truthfully). Just handing over the result ("test-and-tell") is NOT good facilitation.

                  >> Very good. Point taken. I defer to your expertise, here, but...

                  Two other pieces to know are that people who work with the Temperament model realize that certain types aren't as self-aware and thus as good at identifying their own pattern -- and Improviser (aka "Artisan") is usually one of those patterns. Thus (for instance) my ISFP brother-in-law actually "tests" ENFJ. The other piece to know is that people who use the Temperament model have complained that certain questions on the MBTI do not "catch" Improviser types. The Sensing questions lean toward Stabilizer (aka "Guardian") outcomes, not Improviser. So ESFPs often get ENFP results. (And it's common for INTPs and INTJs to be switched with one another.)

                  >> ... VJ, she wears colored hair every day-- blue hair, purple sometimes... or red, green, or orange other times, which looks completely random to me, not that she doesn't have some rhyme or reason in there somewhere-- I just don't know what it is. She attends Faerie Festivals, Pirate Day, Rennesaince Festivals, and every other Weird Festival there is in full Dress, and she has quite an imagination on her. When she animates, it is not physical so much as the drama in her voice, which makes her seem very animated to me. I am pretty sure she leans more N, though probably not as N as I am, even with her scoring so close between S and N.

                  *** Colored hair every day? What about that does not scream "sensing" to you? There may be a tattoo or piercing as well that you don't know about. ;-D Certainly she is having an "impact" in a most visceral way. How are you linking that to iNtuition?

                  *** It seems to me over here that what appeals to you about her is the very fact that you CAN'T "figure her out."

                  *** Certainly it sounds like "wishful thinking" about wanting her to be "N" not "S" -- perhaps in spite of evidence to the contrary.

                  And of course we ALL use all of the processes -- if you didn't have "well-developed sensate skills," you wouldn't be able to read this right now, or type on your keyboard. So be careful about diminishing Sensing, when it is a VERY strong process in your own pattern.

                  >> Point taken. I should have used the word "preference" I guess.

                  My relationship with an ENFP formed around our creative partnership. And I would say that's the part that never stopped working. Where the relationship failed was most likely around sex -- I never felt he was sexually interested in me. (And in our patterns, extraverted Sensing is my inferior/aspirational, while it was his 8th. So we simply didn't jive around that combination.) I also felt he was pretty ego-centric with his introverted Feeling. He also wanted children and I didn't. There were further issues around money (probably more Se, actually). I wanted "things" and he wanted to be romantically poor and starving. We were in our twenties, so we were both pretty immature back then. If I knew then what I know now about type, we probably could have stayed together -- the relationship lasted 8 years, and the creative partnership would have continued had he not married a jealous witch. ;-D

                  >> Thank you sooo much for sharing this with me. So, the break up was caused by differences in personal ambitions and not understanding how to reconcile them between what each wanted?

                  *** It wasn't really a nasty breakup (at least not by my standards). I feel like the romance evaporated from the relationship and it just ran out of steam. I started having an affair with a man (an Improviser, as it happens) who was great in bed, and I felt very desirable and wanted. At that time in my life, I needed that. The Improviser also kicked my butt about growing and getting my act together, whereas the ENFP was happy to "accept me the way I was" -- and sometimes it seemed he defended my shortcomings more determinedly than me. That didn't work for me.

                  *** The whole thing is awfully complex to talk about, AND it was 20 years ago. (Plus introverted Sensing is my 8th process, so I am not fond of *recalling* -- it's easier for me to look toward the future.)

                  *** Does that satisfy enough of your curiosity? I'm not sure how telling my story helps you evolve yours. :-/

                  If you want to read about one of my early relationships, please go to the bottom of the page at enfp.tribe.net/thread/c07...9c1d5d33e21 .

                  *** Yes, I went and looked. I found it interesting how your anima is taken with her anima-tion! ;-D It feels to me from reading your post that your extraverted Sensing has been highly stimulated -- I can almost touch, hear, and see this woman. The details are quite visceral. (In contrast, I don't hear iNtuition activated outside of wondering how to "get" her... :-/)

                  On the other hand, it's possible I needed to leave, because I became very ego-identified with him and was living HIS life rather than my own. I needed to go become my own person.

                  >> Mmmm. So, now that you ARE your own person... how do you feel about intoxicating relationships? Do you want another one? I do.

                  *** I confess that I am blissfully married to my INTJ husband. We got married at Stonehenge in 2002, and I feel this is right for me (even while we do have challenges of our own!).

                  *** Sometimes I miss the intoxication of that other relationship, but I trust my intuition did the right thing by me somehow.

                  *** John Beebe has said that two iNtuitiions together can be "too much." So maybe on some level I felt that? I dunno.

                  *** I have occasionally thought it would be fun to have another ENFP writing partner though. ;-D

                  Beebe talks about "seduction" being a danger for him as a psychiatrist. His partner has ISFJ prefs, and they seem very happy together -- but Beebe knows that when he encounters IN_J in his practice, the giant iNtuiting they do together can cause him to lose his head if he's not careful.

                  I feel that's as much as I should say about it this moment? And let you take that in. (I'm feeling there is some "seduction" around the term "seduction.")

                  >> I interpret "seduction" to mean a process of "drawing one in". I think the intoxicating element is a contributor to one letting down their guard, so that their submissiveness allows them to be drawn in a little more easily. Then there are definitely more strong minded versus weak minded people. But I think we all can be strong minded or weak minded in some way or another. So, in your example above, when BeeBe is "seduced" by IN_J types from the giant iNtuiting they do together, I think that it means he would be much more "willing" to follow the IN_J's lead if they "steer" it correctly. This is a type of power, one person over another, is it not? So what happens when two are "seduced" by one another, and there is no consistant lead? Two N's may have trouble staying grounded if one cannot be the anchor? Also, can there be a mutually intoxicating relationship? I do not confuse intoxication with seduction, only that it seems one should correlate with the other... i.e., show up in many of the same places.

                  *** I hear so much in what you are writing about "taking control of" the seduction, and being rational with it. I guess that's rather foreign to me somehow. Relating to others is more like flying a kite than driving a car in my book.

                  *** I think I'm laying out possible type dynamics about your combination, and what get screated FROM the combination is something else entirely.

                  *** Certainly I will say that having read what you've written about her, it feels to me you are projecting your extraverted Sensing anima her direction, and she is your Venus de Milo, your Marilyn Monroe, your Aphrodite. So it may be a coming together of your aspirational with her dominant process.

                  *** The outstanding question, of course, is whether she returns the interest.

                  *** I don't know that anybody knows how to MAKE her as interested in you as you are in her.

                  *** There are some NLP techniques for gaining rapport -- I'm trying ro remember some of the book titles I've seen. "How to make a man fall in love with you" or something like that was one targeted at women, of course.

                  >> Now, please, oh, please tell me more!

                  *** If I have the combination accurate (ESFP + INTJ), then perhaps you could paint visions for her of the two of you together with your DomNi and seduce her that way, appealing to HER aspirational process. ;-D

                  When your dominant process finds its "other half," the sense of wholeness is intoxicating. You are of "one mind," one accord. It is the most inflated fantastic sense of being, where everything is right with the world and you are all-powerful together.

                  >> YES!!!!! I want it sooooo baddlly!!! So, then, does it mean that theoretically, there is only mutual intoxication with only one type?

                  *** Statistically speaking, it would be two types -- ENFP, ENTP.

                  >> I want THAT type for myself. I can sift through the real life realities/non-idealities that deviate from theory if I know the types to look for.

                  *** It sounds like what you want is HER type -- whatever type that is. ;-D

                  I like Lenore's book mostly, and I like Lenore herself. It seems to me her book appeals to folks with Te somewhere in their preferences -- NTJs, NFPs. I know she has some regrets about how she wrote it, since she was giving in to what her publisher asked for. I prefer Linda Berens' books myself if I had to choose. I'm interested to see what Lenore writes next, since she seems to have been influenced by Dr. Beebe's theories, and that will no doubt color her next project.

                  >> I wish I could meet her. It would be interesting to see who writes these books. My heart beats very fast thinking about it. I will go see what Ms. Berens books are about. I do like Lenore's organization.

                  *** My husband is on several INTJ email lists, and many of those members have bought Berens' books and appreciate them.

                  It's important to say that NONE of the MBTI-style tests measure "strength" of a preference. All the numbers reflect is how SURE you are that something is your preference. In this case, such a low S-N score would suggest Sensing was VERY likely the best-fit, given what I wrote above.

                  >> Mmmmm. Yeah. Point taken, and you have enlightened me on the meaning of the scoring. But given what I have added above, let's revisit this, shall we?

                  *** Sure we can re-visit it -- just don't get annoyed if I keep repeating that you can't trust "the test."

                  If you are able to "test" her easily, you might wish to administer a Temperament assessment: to see what that gives you, although the lack of self-awareness would still present a problem:
                  www.notjustapaycheck.com/caree...h.html

                  >> Sorry. I am not able to test her easily. I had to ask for her help for filling out an excel spreadsheet that I wrote up to automatically sum up the scores for a middle school project I am working on to help identify potential preferences for science and engineering. I used her as a guinie pig for testing my program, but honestly I could have tested it without her. i reeeaallllyyy wanted to see how she tested out.

                  *** Clever!

                  It's important to BE CAREFUL not to imply any of the temperaments or types is *better* than another. In the first place, it isn't true. In the second place, Improvisers in particular are brilliant at telling you what you want to hear. So if you think "N" is better, they will be as "N" as can be for you. :-O

                  >> Oh. I did not know. I guess I natually assume every one is objective like i am.

                  *** Yes, many people make that assumption. And they spend hours debating the merits of the MBTI and complaining about it, and yet their neighbor could probably care less what type they are, or else are about as self-aware as a sack of potatoes. It fascinates me how people assume everyone interacts with the assessment the same way they do, when the whole principle *behind* the assessment is to communicate the point that We Are All Different.

                  The trouble with type is that the answers are never simple. And the quickest answers are usually wrong. :-(

                  >> I don't think she rushed through her test. I took her two days to fill out 70 questions. i saw a lot of erase marks on several of the questions. She reaaalllyyy thought this through. i could tell by the questions she was asking me.

                  *** Uh, you missed the point I was trying to make. (Sorry, my mistake.) That was my approximation of an Obi Wan Kenobi imitation I suppose. What I meant is that people who think type is about easy answers are sooooo wrong. Even between the two of us, we can't be sure of this woman's type. (Heck, I can't be sure of YOUR type! I've never met you, and I don't know where your ideas about type or your type code came from! So pardon my skepticism.)

                  As a coach, I also wonder whether this is a situation where you can't "think" your way through, but must instead "feel" your way through. Perhaps that's what the Universe wants you to develop now. ;-)

                  >> Touche' !!! ;oD But let's start with what I am good at, first (the thinking part). I can tell you that my love life is most important for my stability. I do not do well with my feelings here when I am ungrounded, and it affects EVERY aspect of my life. So feeling my way though is fine, as long as my brain is the boss. Otherwise, there is no telling where I will end up! The trouble is that my brain cannot be the boss when my feelings are committing mutiny against it.

                  *** What I notice is that it does not SOUND as though your brain is "boss" about this person -- thus my wondering if the Universe is putting you in a circumstance that requires you to DEVELOP your Feeling process. Capiche? (The Universe is clever that way.)

                  >> So, next set of questions:

                  (5) What must I do to win her over? Please give me an answer for ENFP, and then one for whatever you insist she is. Then I can try both. Seduction sounds like a good approach to me... especially since she has been doing it to me. I should use my introverted intuition on her? how do I do it? I want her so badly. I feel like that squirrel on ICE AGE... you know the one that keeps trying to get the nut, but can't quite get it?

                  *** I don't think I can help you much there -- but I daresay if you're going to go about it "logically," then you'd best be certain you get the code right first.

                  *** The other thing you might do is not make any "typical INTJ mistakes" about romance. One of the big turnoffs my husband has done is approach me straightforwardly about sex or a date when I prefer to have a little mystery, a little innuendo... We've even had some blow-ups that culminated with his joking, "I suppose a f****ck's out of the question....?" (Okay, I admit that's funny.) Basically, he wants sex or relationships to be straightforward transactions, rather like cashing a check at the bank. HA.

                  *** That's about the best I can offer you in the way of techniques or strategies for hooking up. :-/

                  (6) Suppose for whatever reason, that she just is absolutely not interested in me. Like the remote possiblity that I am not sexy enough for her, or that she might be a little younger than what I originally thought (Iike maybe 19, which means she may lack some pertinent life experiences). Where do i find more ENFP's? Where do they congregate at? How to i approach one without sounding like a complete nut?
                  Do you have any other thoughts on this?

                  *** I'm not sold that ENFP is what's turning you on! So we have to get the question framed right or you'll lean the ladder against the wrong wall...

                  (7) gotta go for now. Let's pick this up again tomorrow.

                  *** I'm not sure how much more help I can be, other than questioning assumptions about type patterns. ;-D (And I don't know if that qualifies as "helpful.")

                  -Vicky Jo ;-D
                  www.TypeInsights.com
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    ** Hi Vicky Jo!! I really had to mull over the last couple of days some of the things you have said. I have really gotten inside myself on this one, and reading back through it, notice a lot of my randomness coming out. I started to go back and edit it, but to hell with it. I will leave it in. It is not often i get to free-wheel write like this!

                    >> ... VJ, she wears colored hair every day-- blue hair, purple sometimes... or red, green, or orange other times, which looks completely random to me, not that she doesn't have some rhyme or reason in there somewhere-- I just don't know what it is. She attends Faerie Festivals, Pirate Day, Rennesaince Festivals, and every other Weird Festival there is in full Dress, and she has quite an imagination on her. When she animates, it is not physical so much as the drama in her voice, which makes her seem very animated to me. I am pretty sure she leans more N, though probably not as N as I am, even with her scoring so close between S and N.

                    >>> Colored hair every day? What about that does not scream "sensing" to you? There may be a tattoo or piercing as well that you don't know about. ;-D Certainly she is having an "impact" in a most visceral way. How are you linking that to iNtuition?

                    ** Well... funny you should mention that. She does have a tattoo on the back of her neck, and she has a piercing under her lip, but above her chin, and it is quite cute. I guess ears are a given. But, I don't think that necessarily means her dominant preference is S. In fact, all of these things never appealed much to me until after I got to know her a little. The thing that really appealed to me was her out loud "wonderment" about things and people, and the attention she paid when I would talk about places I have been. What I really notice is her excitement about things she anticipates she will be doing on the weekend, or an upcoming trip sometime in the next few weeks. After it is over, she rarely mentions it unless asked. It is always something new to come that excites her. Since I don't know her very well, I cannot say how far out she projects... maybe just a few days. I do think she has a preference for N, but exibits S traits, too. On the hair coloring... this isn't thrown on, this is DESIGNED in, usually in a way that is VERY artistically elegant... like a thin strand of purple or blue across her bangs, or some green or blue tressed lightly thorugh the back of her hair so it is only visible from looking at her from the front... she appears as she sorts through possibilities and and then lives each of them on a daily basis. Maybe if I get her, I get the best of both worlds (S and N-- not to be confused with S&M)!

                    >>> It seems to me over here that what appeals to you about her is the very fact that you CAN'T "figure her out."

                    ** I think I have her a little more figured out now than before. But, yeah... I think that is part of the driving factor in my attraction to her.

                    >>> Certainly it sounds like "wishful thinking" about wanting her to be "N" not "S" -- perhaps in spite of evidence to the contrary.

                    ** Mmmm. I think the evidence is there, but I am not doing a very good job of communicating it. I can describe the S part, because as you have pointed out, she has in fact become my Aphrodite (I like greek mythology... I will stick with the sexy-- and attainable-- goddess theme). I have already placed her on a pedestal and am describing her to you ... it is a little more difficult to present "evidence" of "N"ing. How do i present abstract evidence? Could it also be that you may wish she is an "S" and not an "N"? As an engineer in a highly political environment sometimes, I saw a cartoon today that made me laugh out loud. "When the data doesn't support the theory, change the data!!!" In this case, it would seem that there are competing theories on which type is truely the best match for an INTJ (and you have stated that you cannot be sure that I am even this...), and it would seem that you perhaps support one side over the other. I can see a motivation for you to want her to be an S. I'm not saying it clouds your judgement-- only that what you have said before may be true: you cannot be sure of her type. I think you are just warning me to be careful and not jump to conclusions. I agree, and I do defer to your expertise. But my "eyes" are here and not yours... that is our delimma. So we live with it. From the 70% rule, we adjust for uncertainties... 64% chance she is ENFP I think. I think higher for me... say 95% chance I am INTJ (I am VERY sure of my type preferences). So our combination evaluation should be 0.64 * 0.95 = 0.61, or 61% chance we are evaluating this combination correctly. If we were flipping coins, I know where my money would go! (probably the coke machine)

                    >>> Does that satisfy enough of your curiosity? I'm not sure how telling my story helps you evolve yours. :-/

                    ** Not true. Your temprement is NF. So there should be SOME similarities between the way you NF's think, and some of the things you value. You also married an NT. Sounds like NT's and NF's may go well together. What do you think?

                    >>> Yes, I went and looked. I found it interesting how your anima is taken with her anima-tion! ;-D It feels to me from reading your post that your extraverted Sensing has been highly stimulated -- I can almost touch, hear, and see this woman. The details are quite visceral. (In contrast, I don't hear iNtuition activated outside of wondering how to "get" her... :-/)

                    ** Yes. I like the way you put that. "My anima is taken with her anima-tion!" I think you are correct, my extraverted Sensing has been highly stimulated. I also think you are correct in your comment that I am projecting... I imagine what I want her to feel, and wonder how possible it is that she is feeling that. i like what is favorable for me, and this is highly stimulating when I interpret her extraversion as meaning exactly what I had hoped it would mean. It is afterward, when I leave and reflect back that she may just have a great personality and that she may have somewhat of the same effect on everyone!

                    >>> I confess that I am blissfully married to my INTJ husband. We got married at Stonehenge in 2002, and I feel this is right for me (even while we do have challenges of our own!).

                    ** You GO girl!!! Get that INTJ hunk!!!

                    ** Seriously, congradulations! (you GO girl!!! Get that INTJ hunk!!!)

                    >>> Sometimes I miss the intoxication of that other relationship, but I trust my intuition did the right thing by me somehow.

                    ** Thank you. I miss it, too. :o(

                    >>> John Beebe has said that two iNtuitiions together can be "too much." So maybe on some level I felt that? I dunno.

                    ** I do not understand this. What does it mean? Do you mean you become "ungrounded"... like seperated from reality (not like crazy, but like lifes little day-to-day activites piling up from lack of focus on them.... for months at a time-- God, I need help in that department)? Or that you get fed up with each other and need to "get away"?

                    >>> I hear so much in what you are writing about "taking control of" the seduction, and being rational with it. I guess that's rather foreign to me somehow. Relating to others is more like flying a kite than driving a car in my book.

                    ** I would like to learn this. I usually live in a state where I feel I am either in contol of myself and my life, or I am being controlled by life. I like the thought of experiencing a freedom from rationality (but only temperarily), and going with the flow. Thank you, you have enlightened me, and I have changed my thoughts on what this should mean. But, it only works if both people are going with the flow, right? If one is controlling it, then by your definition, the seduction doesn't exist, something else does. ("It is the dark side of the force, Luke." ... "Luke, Luke.. soy su Padre' ".... "NOOOOOOO!!!")

                    >>> I think I'm laying out possible type dynamics about your combination, and what get screated FROM the combination is something else entirely.

                    ** Will you elaborate on this? We will assume 61% accuracy. (see above)

                    >>> Certainly I will say that having read what you've written about her, it feels to me you are projecting your extraverted Sensing anima her direction, and she is your Venus de Milo, your Marilyn Monroe, your Aphrodite. So it may be a coming together of your aspirational with her dominant process.

                    ** Amen. I like it. But, what does it mean that I am projecting my extraverted sensing anima her direction? Can you give me an example (use layman's terms momentarily so I can check my trek). Also, her dominant process would be extraverted intuition, right? (64% chance, remember?)

                    >>> The outstanding question, of course, is whether she returns the interest.

                    ** DAMN!!! That is really the $64,000 Question, isn't it? And you HAD to ask it. ("Oh why, oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill?"... "I know this steak is not real... and yet, here it is. It is juicy and succulent, and tastes good... Ignorance is bliss!"<-- don't know if I got that quote right, but the meaning is there) The answer is, "I DON'T KNOW!!!!" The latest is that her friend invited me to a Pub with the two of them... just the three of us to go... she is trying to set it up. She has already talked to Aphordite about it. Maybe she is checking me out... maybe not! I just DON'T KNOW!!!! and it is killng me, every day :O( ! But I feel ALIVE!

                    >>> I don't know that anybody knows how to MAKE her as interested in you as you are in her.

                    ** Oh, come on. You know!!! (don't ya?) Pull one of those magic tricks out of your stash of goodies for me, please?

                    >>> There are some NLP techniques for gaining rapport -- I'm trying ro remember some of the book titles I've seen. "How to make a man fall in love with you" or something like that was one targeted at women, of course.

                    ** That's what I'm talking about! Does it work? I want to pick up Aprodite, though. Not men. Any other books you might recommend? Perhaps one on seducing Goddesses?

                    >>> If I have the combination accurate (ESFP + INTJ), then perhaps you could paint visions for her of the two of you together with your DomNi and seduce her that way, appealing to HER aspirational process. ;-D

                    ** I like it! I think I already have, in a VERY subtle way. I am not sure though... I have to be delicate. I think this is why her friend invited me to the pub, and is trying to set up a time. Any other suggestions?

                    >>> It sounds like what you want is HER type -- whatever type that is. ;-D

                    ** Yes, or whatever I have projected into her, and is reflecting back at me. I won't really know until I get to KNOW her. You have made a good point, earlier.

                    >>> Sure we can re-visit it -- just don't get annoyed if I keep repeating that you can't trust "the test."

                    ** I would never get annoyed at you VJ... I Adore you! I just hope I can keep from stepping on your feelings with my objectivity.

                    >>> Uh, you missed the point I was trying to make. (Sorry, my mistake.) That was my approximation of an Obi Wan Kenobi imitation I suppose. What I meant is that people who think type is about easy answers are sooooo wrong. Even between the two of us, we can't be sure of this woman's type. (Heck, I can't be sure of YOUR type! I've never met you, and I don't know where your ideas about type or your type code came from! So pardon my skepticism.)

                    ** Heh, Heh! I played to your Star Wars theme above, Princess. ("We will know where your hidden rebel base is, soon enough.") It must appeal to NF's and NT's alike. The NF's for the universal fairy tale of it (Bad Witch has princess to be rescued by young servant, who later transforms to a prince), and the NT's for the imaginative technology of the film itself, and of the wizardry theme of controlling nature. My ideas about type and my type code came from Lenore Thomson, David Kiersey and Marlyn Bates (Please Understand me and II), and some stuff off of the internet which I like to disregard unless I can fixate on a credible source that it comes from, and now, you (we are developing my understanding as we speak-- and possibly running out your patience).

                    >>> What I notice is that it does not SOUND as though your brain is "boss" about this person -- thus my wondering if the Universe is putting you in a circumstance that requires you to DEVELOP your Feeling process. Capiche? (The Universe is clever that way.)

                    ** Capiche. Now for some quiche.

                    >>> I don't think I can help you much there -- but I daresay if you're going to go about it "logically," then you'd best be certain you get the code right first.

                    ** I vote for the "shotgun" approach, where we try both methods simultaneously. I think that is the best method for success. So I approach it logically and feel my way thorugh it in tandem-- logically creating the opportunities, and feelingly reacting to them when the situations arise. (This has GOT to be a recipe for complete Disaster!!-- Let's copy right and patent it!!! I retain creative control! You retain ownership liabilitiy!)

                    >>> The other thing you might do is not make any "typical INTJ mistakes" about romance. One of the big turnoffs my husband has done is approach me straightforwardly about sex or a date when I prefer to have a little mystery, a little innuendo... We've even had some blow-ups that culminated with his joking, "I suppose a f****ck's out of the question....?" (Okay, I admit that's funny.) Basically, he wants sex or relationships to be straightforward transactions, rather like cashing a check at the bank. HA.

                    ** VJ ...*solomnly*... I like a LOT of innuendo. But I like a variety, too. Sex can serve as a release, and should be straight forward in such situations. It can also be a VERY intimate way of expressing Love, and these times should be approached with sacred care of the other persons expectations, as well as your own for these special times. And there are Many shades of grey in between.

                    >>> That's about the best I can offer you in the way of techniques or strategies for hooking up. :-/

                    Thanks!

                    >>> I'm not sold that ENFP is what's turning you on! So we have to get the question framed right or you'll lean the ladder against the wrong wall...

                    ** Ok. Frame the question for us, then. We have both already established that between us, we cannot be completely sure of her type. But I think we can be 61% sure of her and my type combination. In light of things, those look like favorable odds to me. (Especially since you have ownership liability, and I have creative control!)

                    >>> I'm not sure how much more help I can be, other than questioning assumptions about type patterns. ;-D (And I don't know if that qualifies as "helpful.")

                    ** Noted. And I do appreciate your helping me explore this. You have really helped me get inside myself on this, understand some of the uncertainties, and open me up to some other possibilities, including some possible actions to take to woo her. I sense that I am about to wear you out on this! After your next post, I will summerize my conclusions, and you can correct what you want of them.

                    Thanks!

                    Wyatt
                    • ///Hi Vicky Jo!! I really had to mull over the last couple of days some of the things you have said. I have really gotten inside myself on this one, and reading back through it, notice a lot of my randomness coming out. I started to go back and edit it, but to hell with it. I will leave it in. It is not often i get to free-wheel write like this!

                      *** Love the free-wheeling! It's fine by me.

                      >> ... VJ, she wears colored hair every day-- blue hair, purple sometimes... or red, green, or orange other times, which looks completely random to me, not that she doesn't have some rhyme or reason in there somewhere-- I just don't know what i... show more ** Hi Vicky Jo!! I really had to mull over the last couple of days some of the things you have said. I have really gotten inside myself on this one, and reading back through it, notice a lot of my randomness coming out. I started to go back and edit it, but to hell with it. I will leave it in. It is not often i get to free-wheel write like this!

                      >>> Colored hair every day? What about that does not scream "sensing" to you? There may be a tattoo or piercing as well that you don't know about. ;-D Certainly she is having an "impact" in a most visceral way. How are you linking that to iNtuition?

                      /// Well... funny you should mention that. She does have a tattoo on the back of her neck, and she has a piercing under her lip, but above her chin, and it is quite cute. I guess ears are a given. But, I don't think that necessarily means her dominant preference is S.

                      *** Yay, good catch! You are absolutely right -- dyed hair, tattoos and piercings do not necessarily mean her preference is for extraverted Sensing -- nonetheless, the details you are describing ARE extraverted Sensing kinds of details, AND it sounds as though she is having an IMPACT on you with those details. It also sounds like she pays great attention to overall aesthetics. So I don't think I am out of bounds here.

                      *** I'm real clear that I haven't met her, but I CAN respond to what you write. And so far, what you've shared primarily seems to focus on things that appeal to the five senses, or have a visceral (not abstract) impact on you.

                      /// In fact, all of these things never appealed much to me until after I got to know her a little. The thing that really appealed to me was her out loud "wonderment" about things and people, and the attention she paid when I would talk about places I have been. What I really notice is her excitement about things she anticipates she will be doing on the weekend, or an upcoming trip sometime in the next few weeks. After it is over, she rarely mentions it unless asked. It is always something new to come that excites her. Since I don't know her very well, I cannot say how far out she projects... maybe just a few days.

                      *** I think both ENFPs and ESFPs get excited by things that are new.

                      // I do think she has a preference for N, but exibits S traits, too.

                      *** ~wince~ The psychological types model is sooooo NOT trait theory, so that remark makes me uncomfortable. And your first sentence invoked the sticky wicket when you employed the term "preference." The truth is, we ALL OF US "exhibit" preferences for Sensing AND iNtuiting. (In all fairness, I could call YOU a Sensing type, given how much you wax poetical about her APPEARANCE, dya follow me? ;-D)

                      /// On the hair coloring... this isn't thrown on, this is DESIGNED in, usually in a way that is VERY artistically elegant... like a thin strand of purple or blue across her bangs, or some green or blue tressed lightly thorugh the back of her hair so it is only visible from looking at her from the front... she appears as she sorts through possibilities and and then lives each of them on a daily basis.

                      *** Darlin', if she's rearranging her HAIR and you try to call that iNtuiting *possibilities*, I have to wonder what you think the difference between Sensing and iNtuiting IS. =8-O

                      *** (I just remembered --- my HAIRDRESSER has ESFP preferences. ;-P)

                      *** Let's look at definitions for Extraverted Sensing and Extraverted iNtuiting, because those are the two functions we're trying to choose between (as her preference):

                      Se
                      Extraverted Sensing: Experiencing the immediate context; taking action in the physical world; noticing changes and opportunities for action; accumulating experiences; scanning for visible reactions and relevant data; recognizing “what is.” Noticing what was available, trying on different items, and seeing how they look.

                      Ne
                      Extraverted iNtuiting: Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts. Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: “Wearing this might communicate…”

                      *** So far I haven't heard much evidence of extraverted iNtuiting.

                      *** I do hear a lot of YOUR introverted iNtuiting being stimulated, and I confess it makes me wonder if you even SEE her clearly. (Do you follow me? In other words, maybe the iNtuiting that you're experiencing is YOURS -- highly stimulated -- not HERS.)

                      /// Maybe if I get her, I get the best of both worlds (S and N-- not to be confused with S&M)!

                      *** ROFL.

                      *** And on a serious note, YES. You would! You would get S & N with, well, anybody, as it happens, since we all manifest both.

                      >>> It seems to me over here that what appeals to you about her is the very fact that you CAN'T "figure her out."

                      ///I think I have her a little more figured out now than before. But, yeah... I think that is part of the driving factor in my attraction to her.

                      *** So perhaps we should take care not to get her too "figured out," or the attraction will wane? ;-)

                      >>> Certainly it sounds like "wishful thinking" about wanting her to be "N" not "S" -- perhaps in spite of evidence to the contrary.

                      /// Mmmm. I think the evidence is there, but I am not doing a very good job of communicating it. I can describe the S part, because as you have pointed out, she has in fact become my Aphrodite (I like greek mythology... I will stick with the sexy-- and attainable-- goddess theme). I have already placed her on a pedestal and am describing her to you ... it is a little more difficult to present "evidence" of "N"ing. How do i present abstract evidence?

                      *** I provided some definitions above to play with, but truthfully I don't use type to figure out most people's type. I use Temperament and Interaction Styles together, and that gives me the code more reliably. (Those two models rely on patterns, whereas type relies on preferences, and so evidence can be found for ANYthing.)

                      /// Could it also be that you may wish she is an "S" and not an "N"? As an engineer in a highly political environment sometimes, I saw a cartoon today that made me laugh out loud. "When the data doesn't support the theory, change the data!!!"

                      *** Touche! You have accurately identified that I am campaigning strongly for the possibility that she might have Sensing preferences. Why is that? Because there is a snobbery among type enthusiasts that "S" stands for "stupid" and "N" stands for "iNtelligent," and so... I meet mothers who just Can't Have "One Of Those" for a child, or spouses who Just Can't Be Married to "One Of Those." There is a stigma against Sensing!

                      *** I have an ISFP friend on a Yahoo Groups email list who people write to privately so they may confide she's "too smart" to be "S," or perhaps "too nice," or they will slyly suggest all SPs are in prison.

                      *** This is very harmful.

                      *** If people talked about, say, Italians in this way, they would be called bigots. And yet, people in the type community do it all the time and folks treat it like it's normal.

                      *** What I've found in my past ten years of experience in the type field is that "SPs" (I prefer to call them "Improvisers") are discounted, diminished, and misunderstood. AND (ironically) they seem to be INVISIBLE to most people.

                      *** One of my coaching clients recently told me she wasn't sure she had ever MET an Improviser. After we did a facilitation session on Temperament, I invited her to look again. On the next call, she laughed and said they were "everywhere." She even realized her own brother was an Improviser.

                      *** THUS you are right -- you have my number. If I seem to be pushing HARD about the possibility this woman may be an Improviser, it's a compensation to overcome the layers and layers of bias I usually encounter.

                      *** In my defense, what I notice is that thus far in your presentation of her you've described her in a way that could *easily* be associated with Improvisers, and you have *failed* to make a compelling case for "Catalyst" ("NFs"). Feel free to go back and read your messages again. I'll wait. ;-)

                      *** The only thing you state (without backing it up with any solid evidence or anecdotes) is that you *think* she prefers "N."

                      *** If I were to flatter myself and call myself a "scientist," I'd say that wasn't a very rational argument. :-(

                      /// In this case, it would seem that there are competing theories on which type is truely the best match for an INTJ (and you have stated that you cannot be sure that I am even this...),

                      *** Yes, there are many competing theories, as you know from reading my article. I confess I find it astonishing that there have been such blatant declarations that "ENFP is the best match for INTJ," because there seems to be no more basis for that claim than any other.

                      ///and it would seem that you perhaps support one side over the other. I can see a motivation for you to want her to be an S. I'm not saying it clouds your judgement-- only that what you have said before may be true: you cannot be sure of her type. I think you are just warning me to be careful and not jump to conclusions.

                      *** Yes! Do not jump to conclusions! And I am pushing you to support your hypothesis about her type.

                      *** I push because we ALL seem to fall into "wishfulness" when it comes to type. Goodness, I've known a number of Improvisers by now that tested as something else at first, and I believed it. Boy, when the light came on, it was bright! So I've learned to test and test and test again any hypothesis I have about someone's type, especially if they look like they *might* be an Improviser.

                      *** Is it okay if I ask you to do the same, and not just gloss over the question? Do you mind being held to the same standard?

                      /// I agree, and I do defer to your expertise. But my "eyes" are here and not yours... that is our delimma. So we live with it. From the 70% rule, we adjust for uncertainties... 64% chance she is ENFP I think. I think higher for me... say 95% chance I am INTJ (I am VERY sure of my type preferences). So our combination evaluation should be 0.64 * 0.95 = 0.61, or 61% chance we are evaluating this combination correctly. If we were flipping coins, I know where my money would go! (probably the coke machine)

                      *** I'd still love to hear your evidence (and have it be more than a vague notion).

                      >>> Does that satisfy enough of your curiosity? I'm not sure how telling my story helps you evolve yours. :-/

                      /// Not true. Your temprement is NF. So there should be SOME similarities between the way you NF's think, and some of the things you value. You also married an NT. Sounds like NT's and NF's may go well together. What do you think?

                      *** I think you know by reading my article that I do NOT think NFs and NTs are a guaranteed match. In fact, there are some email lists out there that have an entire lore around what they call the "NT/NF Death Spiral." So perhaps it's better if your Aphrodite is NOT an NF!

                      *** As far as similarities go, it's true all Catalysts ("NFs") share the same core values, but it's unlikely you will glean them from what I tell you about a relationship breakdown of some 20 years ago.

                      *** The core values for all Catalysts are for meaning & significance, and having a unique identity.
                      *** The core values for all Improvisers are for having the freedom to act--now, and an ability to make an impact.

                      *** These are listed in the Berens' books I was telling you about, btw, along with a loooong list of other qualities and behaviors that help readers identify a best-fit pattern.

                      *** (Which of those two sets of core values sound more like your lady?)

                      >>> Yes, I went and looked. I found it interesting how your anima is taken with her anima-tion! ;-D It feels to me from reading your post that your extraverted Sensing has been highly stimulated -- I can almost touch, hear, and see this woman. The details are quite visceral. (In contrast, I don't hear iNtuition activated outside of wondering how to "get" her... :-/)

                      // Yes. I like the way you put that. "My anima is taken with her anima-tion!" I think you are correct, my extraverted Sensing has been highly stimulated. I also think you are correct in your comment that I am projecting... I imagine what I want her to feel, and wonder how possible it is that she is feeling that. i like what is favorable for me, and this is highly stimulating when I interpret her extraversion as meaning exactly what I had hoped it would mean. It is afterward, when I leave and reflect back that she may just have a great personality and that she may have somewhat of the same effect on everyone!

                      *** What I make up is that the two of you are stimulated around extraverted Sensing together. ;-)

                      >>> I confess that I am blissfully married to my INTJ husband. We got married at Stonehenge in 2002, and I feel this is right for me (even while we do have challenges of our own!).

                      /// You GO girl!!! Get that INTJ hunk!!!

                      *** LOL!!

                      /// Seriously, congradulations! (you GO girl!!! Get that INTJ hunk!!!)

                      *** ROFL!

                      >>> Sometimes I miss the intoxication of that other relationship, but I trust my intuition did the right thing by me somehow.

                      // Thank you. I miss it, too. :o(

                      *** Not sure what you mean? (Not sure it's important...)

                      >>> John Beebe has said that two iNtuitiions together can be "too much." So maybe on some level I felt that? I dunno.

                      /// I do not understand this. What does it mean? Do you mean you become "ungrounded"... like seperated from reality (not like crazy, but like lifes little day-to-day activites piling up from lack of focus on them.... for months at a time-- God, I need help in that department)? Or that you get fed up with each other and need to "get away"?

                      *** Kind of like an overdose I think. And there's so much of that function that you DO get unbalanced. Like eating too much chocolate. It's just... too.... much.

                      >>> I hear so much in what you are writing about "taking control of" the seduction, and being rational with it. I guess that's rather foreign to me somehow. Relating to others is more like flying a kite than driving a car in my book.

                      /// I would like to learn this. I usually live in a state where I feel I am either in contol of myself and my life, or I am being controlled by life.

                      *** Oh yeah. The core values for all Theorists ("NTs") are: having Mastery & Self-Control, and having Knowledge & Competence

                      *** Zat sound familiar? ;-)

                      /// I like the thought of experiencing a freedom from rationality (but only temperarily), and going with the flow.

                      *** And that's why we get attracted to people who are our "opposites." Whatever type this woman is, she seems to be a RELIEF from too much rationality. (That's why I said one of her attractions is the fact that you *cannot* figure her out.)

                      /// Thank you, you have enlightened me, and I have changed my thoughts on what this should mean. But, it only works if both people are going with the flow, right? If one is controlling it, then by your definition, the seduction doesn't exist, something else does. ("It is the dark side of the force, Luke." ... "Luke, Luke.. soy su Padre' ".... "NOOOOOOO!!!")

                      *** I'm a little hesitant about how to respond to this....? It feels like you are making up "rules," and that feels a little heavyhanded over here. :-/

                      >>> I think I'm laying out possible type dynamics about your combination, and what gets created FROM the combination is something else entirely.

                      /// Will you elaborate on this? We will assume 61% accuracy. (see above)

                      *** I guess I'm pondering how INTJ interfaces with ENFP or ESFP, and you're wanting to elope to Hawaii together. I'm puzzling about how the chemicals combine, and you're making travel arrangements. (This might be an introverted Thinking vs. extraverted Thinking difference. ;-D)

                      >>> Certainly I will say that having read what you've written about her, it feels to me you are projecting your extraverted Sensing anima her direction, and she is your Venus de Milo, your Marilyn Monroe, your Aphrodite. So it may be a coming together of your aspirational with her dominant process.

                      /// Amen. I like it. But, what does it mean that I am projecting my extraverted sensing anima her direction? Can you give me an example (use layman's terms momentarily so I can check my trek). Also, her dominant process would be extraverted intuition, right? (64% chance, remember?)

                      *** I suspect it is your extraverted Sensing anima that is waxing lyrical about her hair, her voice, her tattoo... it is probably a rarely-seen irrational side that you are displaying. And you are quite animated! You are expending a lot of energy on this, ah, project. AND you are very aware of your "inferior" abilities here. You are highly self-conscious of your ignorance about attracting, seducing... You would give *anything* right now to be Orlando Bloom or [your_movie_star_hunk_here]. You'd like to "spill the wine, get that girl," and yet you can't seem to button your shirt right and are tripping over your own feet when you "casually" drop by to see her. It's as if you're 14 years old again, only now you know that wearing "eau de cologne" isn't adequate to hold her interest. You wish you were better looking, sexier, had more money and a better car to impress her with. A great pad wouldn't hurt either.

                      *** That's an extraverted Sensing anima.

                      >>> The outstanding question, of course, is whether she returns the interest.

                      /// DAMN!!! That is really the $64,000 Question, isn't it? And you HAD to ask it. ("Oh why, oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill?"... "I know this steak is not real... and yet, here it is. It is juicy and succulent, and tastes good... Ignorance is bliss!"<-- don't know if I got that quote right, but the meaning is there) The answer is, "I DON'T KNOW!!!!" The latest is that her friend invited me to a Pub with the two of them... just the three of us to go... she is trying to set it up. She has already talked to Aphordite about it. Maybe she is checking me out... maybe not! I just DON'T KNOW!!!! and it is killng me, every day :O( ! But I feel ALIVE!

                      *** Hello. It's nice to meet your Se anima. (Alive=Animated=Anima)

                      >>> I don't know that anybody knows how to MAKE her as interested in you as you are in her.

                      /// Oh, come on. You know!!! (don't ya?) Pull one of those magic tricks out of your stash of goodies for me, please?

                      *** I confess. If I were there in person, I might be able to generate an idea or two -- but I won't touch it with a ten-foot-pole over email. Nada chance.

                      >>> There are some NLP techniques for gaining rapport -- I'm trying ro remember some of the book titles I've seen. "How to make a man fall in love with you" or something like that was one targeted at women, of course.

                      /// That's what I'm talking about! Does it work? I want to pick up Aprodite, though. Not men. Any other books you might recommend? Perhaps one on seducing Goddesses?

                      *** Here's one by the author who wrote the other one, but I dunno how good it is:
                      www.amazon.com/Man-Power-...767-8082509

                      *** Kevin Hogan has written a few based on NLP as well, like this:
                      www.amazon.com/Irresistib...767-8082509

                      *** Truthfully, though... chances are, regardless of whether the object of your affections prefers ENFP or ESFP, she probably already is completely clued-in to what's up with you, and you're about five miles behind. (Sorry to break it to you like this.)

                      >>> If I have the combination accurate (ESFP + INTJ), then perhaps you could paint visions for her of the two of you together with your DomNi and seduce her that way, appealing to HER aspirational process. ;-D

                      /// I like it! I think I already have, in a VERY subtle way. I am not sure though... I have to be delicate. I think this is why her friend invited me to the pub, and is trying to set up a time. Any other suggestions?

                      *** Um, enjoy yourself? I suspect control is entirely out of your hands at this point.

                      >>> It sounds like what you want is HER type -- whatever type that is. ;-D

                      /// Yes, or whatever I have projected into her, and is reflecting back at me. I won't really know until I get to KNOW her. You have made a good point, earlier.

                      *** "We," by Robert Johnson. Great book.

                      >>> Sure we can re-visit it -- just don't get annoyed if I keep repeating that you can't trust "the test."

                      /// I would never get annoyed at you VJ... I Adore you! I just hope I can keep from stepping on your feelings with my objectivity.

                      *** Curiously, I think I am being more objective than you right now. (My experience of you through this dialogue is that you're sounding very SUBjective.)

                      >>> Uh, you missed the point I was trying to make. (Sorry, my mistake.) That was my approximation of an Obi Wan Kenobi imitation I suppose. What I meant is that people who think type is about easy answers are sooooo wrong. Even between the two of us, we can't be sure of this woman's type. (Heck, I can't be sure of YOUR type! I've never met you, and I don't know where your ideas about type or your type code came from! So pardon my skepticism.)

                      /// Heh, Heh! I played to your Star Wars theme above, Princess. ("We will know where your hidden rebel base is, soon enough.") It must appeal to NF's and NT's alike. The NF's for the universal fairy tale of it (Bad Witch has princess to be rescued by young servant, who later transforms to a prince), and the NT's for the imaginative technology of the film itself, and of the wizardry theme of controlling nature. My ideas about type and my type code came from Lenore Thomson, David Kiersey and Marlyn Bates (Please Understand me and II), and some stuff off of the internet which I like to disregard unless I can fixate on a credible source that it comes from, and now, you (we are developing my understanding as we speak-- and possibly running out your patience).

                      *** Man, don't MAKE me do a commercial for my self-discovery work! (I have an excellent track record though. ;-D)

                      >>> What I notice is that it does not SOUND as though your brain is "boss" about this person -- thus my wondering if the Universe is putting you in a circumstance that requires you to DEVELOP your Feeling process. Capiche? (The Universe is clever that way.)

                      /// Capiche. Now for some quiche.

                      *** Oh, a wise guy.

                      >>> I don't think I can help you much there -- but I daresay if you're going to go about it "logically," then you'd best be certain you get the code right first.

                      /// I vote for the "shotgun" approach, where we try both methods simultaneously. I think that is the best method for success. So I approach it logically and feel my way thorugh it in tandem-- logically creating the opportunities, and feelingly reacting to them when the situations arise. (This has GOT to be a recipe for complete Disaster!!-- Let's copy right and patent it!!! I retain creative control! You retain ownership liabilitiy!)

                      *** ROFL!

                      *** Okay, here's the deal: the One Thing we know BOTH the ESFP and ENFP have in common is this:
                      *** Both these patterns share a "Get-Things-Going" interaction style. They like to *involve* and *be involved*.
                      www.InteractionStyles.com They tend to be optimistic and fun to be around.

                      *** Both of them ALSO meet the world with their extraverted Perceiving preference (the "ADD" muscle), and "having fun" is pretty important.

                      *** There's probably lots more to say on those two points, but I confess it's late and I'm tiring. I'll see if I think of more tomorrow.

                      >>> The other thing you might do is not make any "typical INTJ mistakes" about romance. One of the big turnoffs my husband has done is approach me straightforwardly about sex or a date when I prefer to have a little mystery, a little innuendo... We've even had some blow-ups that culminated with his joking, "I suppose a f****ck's out of the question....?" (Okay, I admit that's funny.) Basically, he wants sex or relationships to be straightforward transactions, rather like cashing a check at the bank. HA.

                      /// VJ ...*solomnly*... I like a LOT of innuendo. But I like a variety, too. Sex can serve as a release, and should be straight forward in such situations. It can also be a VERY intimate way of expressing Love, and these times should be approached with sacred care of the other persons expectations, as well as your own for these special times. And there are Many shades of grey in between.

                      *** Are you sure you have INTJ prefs? Have you ever tried on INFJ? ;-P

                      >>> That's about the best I can offer you in the way of techniques or strategies for hooking up. :-/

                      Thanks!

                      >>> I'm not sold that ENFP is what's turning you on! So we have to get the question framed right or you'll lean the ladder against the wrong wall...

                      /// Ok. Frame the question for us, then. We have both already established that between us, we cannot be completely sure of her type. But I think we can be 61% sure of her and my type combination. In light of things, those look like favorable odds to me. (Especially since you have ownership liability, and I have creative control!)

                      *** It feels like the only *real* question on the table is this one: "How do I obtain my heart's desire?"

                      *** Does any of the rest of it really matter?

                      >>> I'm not sure how much more help I can be, other than questioning assumptions about type patterns. ;-D (And I don't know if that qualifies as "helpful.")

                      /// Noted. And I do appreciate your helping me explore this. You have really helped me get inside myself on this, understand some of the uncertainties, and open me up to some other possibilities, including some possible actions to take to woo her. I sense that I am about to wear you out on this! After your next post, I will summerize my conclusions, and you can correct what you want of them.

                      *** You seem like a great guy, and I'd like to see you happy and satisfied in a rewarding relationship. I'm not sure whether my "type analysis" is contributing to that outcome or not -- only you can say.

                      *** Perhaps it's keeping you distracted from the panic of not knowing what else to do? So maybe it's effective as a stalling tactic until your Venus plays her cards.

                      *** I say again, "enjoy yourself"!

                      Thanks!

                      *** Sorry to run out of steam. It's late on a Friday night, and I have relatives to deal with tomorrow. =8-O

                      *** Vicky Jo
                      www.TypeInsights.com
                      • **Hi Vicky Jo!!

                        /// ... AND it sounds as though she is having an IMPACT on you with those details. It also sounds like she pays great attention to overall aesthetics....

                        ** She has an impact, alright. I am going NUTS trying to contain myself around her... without spilling out a flood of emotion on her.

                        /// I'm real clear that I haven't met her, but I CAN respond to what you write. And so far, what you've shared primarily seems to focus on things that appeal to the five senses, or have a visceral (not abstract) impact on you.

                        ** I promise you, what I descibe may be the five sense things, but it stems from the fact that she has MUCH more of a psycological effect on me. VJ, I have seen and dated better looking women. I do not know any other way to describe it. There is just something else there..... her way.... I simply cannot describe it. I have to get to know her better. Then I will be able to pinpoint it. I think. Something about her is elusive... someting there that I should be able to see clearly, but it is opaque, and I can't quite. I WANT her. There is an inoscence there, too. I do identifiy with that.

                        /// ~wince~ The psychological types model is sooooo NOT trait theory, so that remark makes me uncomfortable. And your first sentence invoked the sticky wicket when you employed the term "preference." The truth is, we ALL OF US "exhibit" preferences for Sensing AND iNtuiting. (In all fairness, I could call YOU a Sensing type, given how much you wax poetical about her APPEARANCE, dya follow me? ;-D)

                        ** Fair enough.

                        /// Darlin', if she's rearranging her HAIR and you try to call that iNtuiting *possibilities*, I have to wonder what you think the difference between Sensing and iNtuiting IS. =8-O

                        ** Awww. You called me "Darlin'". And it only took our third date!

                        ** Seriously... MAYBE I am reaching. However, I still think she is N. I cannot prove it. I just KNOW she is. Besides, isn't being drawn to change an EXTRAVERTED Intuiting function? Also, ESFP's usually are not patient with long theoretical explanations, right? Prefering instead a practical explanation, or to make simple but broad sweeping statements? She is soooo not like that. And also, aren't ENFP's VERY imaginative? This girl is... she seems to enjoy telling me about dreams she has had.... Although I think she may read things into people and situations that are not there sometimes. Which is kind of attractive, too... I think she has made that mistake with me before, but it was kind of negative. It took me a while to win favor back with her. Sometimes it is positive. I dunno. She seems to draw meaning from the way we look at each other sometimes, because her behavior changes-- slightly. Like the other day, when she looked up and saw it was me by suprise, and she immediately blushed ten shades of red. She senses me. But I am at a loss to say in what way. I think I intimidate her sometimes(not in a bad way, but in a good way), kind of like she intimidates me. Also, look at what you wrote, below!!! "Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: 'Wearing this might communicate…' "-- No, I am convinced more than ever this hair coloring thing is definitely part of her Intuition now... i specifically remember a conversation we had three months ago about the color of her hair that day and and the symbolizm behind it, and what it meant!

                        /// (I just remembered --- my HAIRDRESSER has ESFP preferences. ;-P)

                        ** Smart one! ;oP

                        /// Let's look at definitions for Extraverted Sensing and Extraverted iNtuiting, because those are the two functions we're trying to choose between (as her preference):

                        Se
                        Extraverted Sensing: Experiencing the immediate context; taking action in the physical world; noticing changes and opportunities for action; accumulating experiences; scanning for visible reactions and relevant data; recognizing “what is.” Noticing what was available, trying on different items, and seeing how they look.

                        Ne
                        Extraverted iNtuiting: Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts. Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: “Wearing this might communicate…”

                        /// So far I haven't heard much evidence of extraverted iNtuiting.

                        /// I do hear a lot of YOUR introverted iNtuiting being stimulated, and I confess it makes me wonder if you even SEE her clearly. (Do you follow me? In other words, maybe the iNtuiting that you're experiencing is YOURS -- highly stimulated -- not HERS.)

                        ** I hear you loud and clear. I have even wondered exactly this myself.

                        /// So perhaps we should take care not to get her too "figured out," or the attraction will wane? ;-)

                        ** I doubt it will wane. I have been thinking that for over six months, and it keeps getting worse!!! I see no way out of this for me except either having her, or getting "crushed" by her. I feel that I am a rat trapped in a ship going down. And I don't know if she is saving that seat beside her in the life boat for me or for someone else.

                        /// Certainly it sounds like "wishful thinking" about wanting her to be "N" not "S" -- perhaps in spite of evidence to the contrary.

                        >>> Mmmm. I think the evidence is there, but I am not doing a very good job of communicating it. I can describe the S part, because as you have pointed out, she has in fact become my Aphrodite (I like greek mythology... I will stick with the sexy-- and attainable-- goddess theme). I have already placed her on a pedestal and am describing her to you ... it is a little more difficult to present "evidence" of "N"ing. How do i present abstract evidence?

                        /// I provided some definitions above to play with, but truthfully I don't use type to figure out most people's type. I use Temperament and Interaction Styles together, and that gives me the code more reliably. (Those two models rely on patterns, whereas type relies on preferences, and so evidence can be found for ANYthing.)

                        ** I will stick by this. I read the definitions above. I do agree with what you are saying. Evidence can be found for ANYthing. You could hop on a plane and fly down and meet her!!! She would really think I was a complete nut then :o( . Maybe I am.

                        /// Touche! You have accurately identified that I am campaigning strongly for the possibility that she might have Sensing preferences. Why is that? Because there is a snobbery among type enthusiasts that "S" stands for "stupid" and "N" stands for "iNtelligent," and so... I meet mothers who just Can't Have "One Of Those" for a child, or spouses who Just Can't Be Married to "One Of Those." There is a stigma against Sensing!

                        /// I have an ISFP friend on a Yahoo Groups email list who people write to privately so they may confide she's "too smart" to be "S," or perhaps "too nice," or they will slyly suggest all SPs are in prison.

                        ** Honestly, i did not know.

                        /// What I've found in my past ten years of experience in the type field is that "SPs" (I prefer to call them "Improvisers") are discounted, diminished, and misunderstood. AND (ironically) they seem to be INVISIBLE to most people.

                        /// One of my coaching clients recently told me she wasn't sure she had ever MET an Improviser. After we did a facilitation session on Temperament, I invited her to look again. On the next call, she laughed and said they were "everywhere." She even realized her own brother was an Improviser.

                        ** My best friend growing up is an ESFP. I didn't see or speak to him since I was 12 years old, but when I was in Gulf Shores, Alabama a few years ago, stopped by his house, and we picked up like we never left off. It was an amazing experience. We still keep in touch every couple of months. I always liked being around him, particularly as a child, because he always knew all the cool places to be, how to act, and how to have fun. It was always much fun being around him. I confess, we would not be friends today if we met, becuase we are soooooo different. We simply do not not run around in the same circles. He is very successful as a self-employed contractor, although he has trouble managing his books. He also was in federal prison for 3 year several years ago. I guess he had some life experiences teach him a few things.

                        ** Also, Aphrodities friend who has set up the night out for the three of us soon, she is an ESFP. I have her for a relief to place Aphrodite against.

                        /// THUS you are right -- you have my number. If I seem to be pushing HARD about the possibility this woman may be an Improviser, it's a compensation to overcome the layers and layers of bias I usually encounter.

                        /// In my defense, what I notice is that thus far in your presentation of her you've described her in a way that could *easily* be associated with Improvisers, and you have *failed* to make a compelling case for "Catalyst" ("NFs"). Feel free to go back and read your messages again. I'll wait. ;-)

                        /// The only thing you state (without backing it up with any solid evidence or anecdotes) is that you *think* she prefers "N."

                        ** I still think it. I just know that I can prove it at this time. I think I need a night out with her to know. It is the only way we can have a meaningful conversation. Otherwise I cannot get that much insight into her.

                        /// If I were to flatter myself and call myself a "scientist," I'd say that wasn't a very rational argument. :-(

                        ** I would call you a social scientest. So be flattered. It is more of a soft science, in contrast to the hard science that I practice. You have a lot more unknowns that can affect the outcome, and probably much more limited ways of collecting data. I can see that the internet has greatly changed the way your field can practice.

                        ** On the rational argument thing, we are still speculating. We do not have enough data yet. My intuition tells me she is "N".

                        /// Yes! Do not jump to conclusions! And I am pushing you to support your hypothesis about her type.

                        /// I push because we ALL seem to fall into "wishfulness" when it comes to type. Goodness, I've known a number of Improvisers by now that tested as something else at first, and I believed it. Boy, when the light came on, it was bright! So I've learned to test and test and test again any hypothesis I have about someone's type, especially if they look like they *might* be an Improviser.

                        ** Still collecting data. Will share it with you as soon as I can.

                        /// Is it okay if I ask you to do the same, and not just gloss over the question? Do you mind being held to the same standard?

                        ** Yes, you may, and I do not mind at all.

                        /// I'd still love to hear your evidence (and have it be more than a vague notion).

                        /// I think you know by reading my article that I do NOT think NFs and NTs are a guaranteed match. In fact, there are some email lists out there that have an entire lore around what they call the "NT/NF Death Spiral." So perhaps it's better if your Aphrodite is NOT an NF!

                        ** I have read about the "NT/NF Death Spiral". Now that I know what it is, I can recognize it and avoid it.

                        /// The core values for all Catalysts are for meaning & significance, and having a unique identity.
                        /// The core values for all Improvisers are for having the freedom to act--now, and an ability to make an impact.

                        /// These are listed in the Berens' books I was telling you about, btw, along with a loooong list of other qualities and behaviors that help readers identify a best-fit pattern.

                        /// (Which of those two sets of core values sound more like your lady?)

                        ** I want to say the first set. But I can't. I just don't know yet. I can't say the second, either.

                        /// What I make up is that the two of you are stimulated around extraverted Sensing together. ;-)

                        ** I am still thinking on this one.

                        /// Not sure what you mean? (Not sure it's important...)

                        ** In highschool, Kim was very intoxicating for me. She was an NF. It was the best relationship I ever had, but we were both very inexperienced with relationships. I think I got spoiled. I have not been able to find anything close to that feeling until now. The feelings are similar, but not the same.

                        /// Kind of like an overdose I think. And there's so much of that function that you DO get unbalanced. Like eating too much chocolate. It's just... too.... much.

                        ** So, it just needs to be moderated, then. Why throw out the chocolate? Chocolate is good! I don't want a cuboard full of only broccali!

                        >>> I would like to learn this. I usually live in a state where I feel I am either in contol of myself and my life, or I am being controlled by life.

                        /// Oh yeah. The core values for all Theorists ("NTs") are: having Mastery & Self-Control, and having Knowledge & Competence

                        /// Zat sound familiar? ;-)

                        ** Yeah, it does.

                        >>> I like the thought of experiencing a freedom from rationality (but only temperarily), and going with the flow.

                        /// And that's why we get attracted to people who are our "opposites." Whatever type this woman is, she seems to be a RELIEF from too much rationality. (That's why I said one of her attractions is the fact that you *cannot* figure her out.)

                        ** I want her soooo baddllyy! I have GOT to be COMPLETELY NUTS over this, typing this on the internet!

                        /// I'm a little hesitant about how to respond to this....? It feels like you are making up "rules," and that feels a little heavyhanded over here. :-/

                        ** Just trying to understand the rules that already exist naturally. I don't have to make them up. They are there. Just want to interpret them.

                        /// I guess I'm pondering how INTJ interfaces with ENFP or ESFP, and you're wanting to elope to Hawaii together. I'm puzzling about how the chemicals combine, and you're making travel arrangements. (This might be an introverted Thinking vs. extraverted Thinking difference. ;-D)

                        ** ROFL-- Yeah, if I had any guarantee she would go, they would already be booked. Actually, funny you should put it that way. My boss and I have this problem all the time. He is INTP, and his first process is introverted thinking. He is already putting things together in a logical sense in linear motion, and I my thoughts start at how the end should look and work backwards. But it takes me much longer to get a ball rolling on my plan than it does for him. He hates it, because he usually has several starts and stops, having to back track. I usually have one plan and work all the way through it the first time.

                        /// I suspect it is your extraverted Sensing anima that is waxing lyrical about her hair, her voice, her tattoo... it is probably a rarely-seen irrational side that you are displaying. And you are quite animated! You are expending a lot of energy on this, ah, project. AND you are very aware of your "inferior" abilities here. You are highly self-conscious of your ignorance about attracting, seducing... You would give *anything* right now to be Orlando Bloom or [your_movie_star_hunk_here]. You'd like to "spill the wine, get that girl," and yet you can't seem to button your shirt right and are tripping over your own feet when you "casually" drop by to see her. It's as if you're 14 years old again, only now you know that wearing "eau de cologne" isn't adequate to hold her interest. You wish you were better looking, sexier, had more money and a better car to impress her with. A great pad wouldn't hurt either.

                        ** ROFL- You are sooo funnnnyyy!!! And true. Except I have most of those things, and still feel inadequate against her social graces and sweet smile, and soft voice. My GOD! She is young, has no formal education past highschool, and works in a store! And she seems LIGHTYEARS ahead of me!! How do I impress her!!??!! Tell me, please!!

                        /// That's an extraverted Sensing anima.

                        /// Here's one by the author who wrote the other one, but I dunno how good it is:
                        www.amazon.com/Man-Power-...767-8082509

                        ** Thanks!

                        /// Kevin Hogan has written a few based on NLP as well, like this:
                        www.amazon.com/Irresistib...767-8082509

                        ** Thanks!

                        /// Truthfully, though... chances are, regardless of whether the object of your affections prefers ENFP or ESFP, she probably already is completely clued-in to what's up with you, and you're about five miles behind. (Sorry to break it to you like this.)

                        ** Uh-oh. What do I do, now, then!?

                        /// Um, enjoy yourself? I suspect control is entirely out of your hands at this point.

                        ** Ok. I will.

                        /// Curiously, I think I am being more objective than you right now. (My experience of you through this dialogue is that you're sounding very SUBjective.)

                        ** ROFL-- VJ... It is because I DO NOT KNOW what the hell I am doing!!!! She might be the most important girl in my life, and if I miss my opportunity, I won't have her. How will I know? Up until now, I haven't even been able to get a conversation with her longer than a few sentences at a time. She is the "Red Haired Girl" in Charlie Brown!

                        /// Man, don't MAKE me do a commercial for my self-discovery work! (I have an excellent track record though. ;-D)

                        ** Actually, after I read this comment above, I went and did a little more homework on you. I did not know you were as active in your field as you apparently are. I have been to your Type Insights website before. I did not know who you were before now. But I am glad we have become friends, as well as you can be online, I guess. ;o)

                        /// Okay, here's the deal: the One Thing we know BOTH the ESFP and ENFP have in common is this:

                        /// Both these patterns share a "Get-Things-Going" interaction style. They like to *involve* and *be involved*.
                        www.InteractionStyles.com They tend to be optimistic and fun to be around.

                        /// Both of them ALSO meet the world with their extraverted Perceiving preference (the "ADD" muscle), and "having fun" is pretty important.

                        /// There's probably lots more to say on those two points, but I confess it's late and I'm tiring. I'll see if I think of more tomorrow.

                        ** Thanks for the suggestions!!! Now I have to turn into FUN GUY! Actually, I think I can pull it off rather easily.

                        >>> VJ ...*solomnly*... I like a LOT of innuendo. But I like a variety, too. Sex can serve as a release, and should be straight forward in such situations. It can also be a VERY intimate way of expressing Love, and these times should be approached with sacred care of the other persons expectations, as well as your own for these special times. And there are Many shades of grey in between.

                        /// Are you sure you have INTJ prefs? Have you ever tried on INFJ? ;-P

                        ** I am sure I am INTJ. I can say that I have learned through a lot of trial and error what works romantically. I have grown much myself in this area. I like thinking about it.

                        Thanks!

                        /// It feels like the only *real* question on the table is this one: "How do I obtain my heart's desire?"

                        /// Does any of the rest of it really matter?

                        ** Nothing else matters.

                        /// You seem like a great guy, and I'd like to see you happy and satisfied in a rewarding relationship. I'm not sure whether my "type analysis" is contributing to that outcome or not -- only you can say.

                        *** Awww! You are very sweet! And I say, "YES !!!" :OD I do think as much, just having you here to talk makes me feel better about it. You give me much to think about. And in light of what you say in the next comment, I think you are right about being distracted from panic.

                        /// Perhaps it's keeping you distracted from the panic of not knowing what else to do? So maybe it's effective as a stalling tactic until your Venus plays her cards.

                        /// I say again, "enjoy yourself"!

                        I will! Thanks!

                        ** Wyatt
                        • &&&Hi Vicky Jo!!

                          Hey Wyatt!

                          /// ... AND it sounds as though she is having an IMPACT on you with those details. It also sounds like she pays great attention to overall aesthetics....

                          &&& She has an impact, alright. I am going NUTS trying to contain myself around her... without spilling out a flood of emotion on her.

                          *** I wonder what process it is that you're struggling to "contain." :-/

                          /// I'm real clear that I haven't met her, but I CAN respond to what you write. And so far, what you've shared primarily seems to focus on things that appeal to the five senses, or have a visceral (not abstract) impact on you.

                          &&& I promise you, what I descibe may be the five sense things, but it stems from the fact that she has MUCH more of a psycological effect on me. VJ, I have seen and dated better looking women. I do not know any other way to describe it. There is just something else there..... her way.... I simply cannot describe it. I have to get to know her better. Then I will be able to pinpoint it. I think. Something about her is elusive... someting there that I should be able to see clearly, but it is opaque, and I can't quite. I WANT her. There is an inoscence there, too. I do identifiy with that.

                          *** Right. And --

                          *** I GET that you're activated. (Kind of hard to miss!) But ANY of the processes can have a "psychological effect." John Beebe claims his introverted Sensing anima showed up in a dream of a Chinese laundress, of all things. So the subjectiveness of your experience may be clouding the objectivity needed to discern her type. Dya follow me?

                          /// ~wince~ The psychological types model is sooooo NOT trait theory, so that remark makes me uncomfortable. And your first sentence invoked the sticky wicket when you employed the term "preference." The truth is, we ALL OF US "exhibit" preferences for Sensing AND iNtuiting. (In all fairness, I could call YOU a Sensing type, given how much you wax poetical about her APPEARANCE, dya follow me? ;-D)

                          &&& Fair enough.

                          *** Reason #4385758 why this conversation is so hard to have via email. What a person tells you is going on versus what IS going on sometimes don't match up very well. We are none of us entirely "self-aware," as much as we wish it so.

                          *** Sometimes I ask my clients whether they can see other peoples' issues, challenges, "shadow." And of course they always can. But they know enough not to *tell* the other person. We've pretty much all learned that, right?

                          *** And then I say, "Well, if you can see their stuff, don't you think they can see some of yours that you can't see?" And after a minute or two, they concede that's probably so.

                          *** (sometimes I wonder how we manage to relate at ALL)

                          /// Darlin', if she's rearranging her HAIR and you try to call that iNtuiting *possibilities*, I have to wonder what you think the difference between Sensing and iNtuiting IS. =8-O

                          &&& Awww. You called me "Darlin'". And it only took our third date!

                          *** My grandmother helped her daddy build split-rail fences in Arkansas, and my name is "Vicky Jo." So I can channel a little "southern" sometimes, despite my living in Hollywood.

                          &&& Seriously... MAYBE I am reaching. However, I still think she is N. I cannot prove it. I just KNOW she is. Besides, isn't being drawn to change an EXTRAVERTED Intuiting function?

                          *** Uh, that feels like a BSG (broad sweeping generalization)? I will concede that E__P's like to stay on top of what's NEW and crave novel experiences, but they aren't necessarily any better with change than anyone else. (They do prefer VARIETY, and both might be considered "early adopters.")

                          &&&Also, ESFP's usually are not patient with long theoretical explanations, right? Prefering instead a practical explanation, or to make simple but broad sweeping statements?

                          *** Y'mean, are they stupid??

                          *** Y'mean they want you to cut to the chase, get to the point?

                          *** One of the most brilliant people I've ever known had ESFP preferences, and he introduced me to a number of theories I was previously unaware of. I found his company enthralling.

                          &&& She is soooo not like that. And also, aren't ENFP's VERY imaginative? This girl is...

                          *** Imagination? Well, I know both ENFP and ESFP screenwriters, which seems to require imagination. As a computer consultant, I often met both ESFP and ENFP geeks -- I knew an ENFP who did "help desk" stuff, and an ESFP who was in charge of web development for a division of Disney. (Given their relative positions, one might suppose the ENFP would be the executive and the ESFP would be the help-desk if you buy into stereotypes.)

                          &&& she seems to enjoy telling me about dreams she has had....

                          *** I guess I'm wondering whether she relates the events or her interpretation. Is it about what happened, or about what it all means? (Although, is she driving that conversation or are you?)

                          &&& Although I think she may read things into people and situations that are not there sometimes. Which is kind of attractive, too... I think she has made that mistake with me before, but it was kind of negative. It took me a while to win favor back with her. Sometimes it is positive. I dunno. She seems to draw meaning from the way we look at each other sometimes, because her behavior changes-- slightly. Like the other day, when she looked up and saw it was me by suprise, and she immediately blushed ten shades of red.

                          *** "Reading things into people and situations" but doing it BADLY? That doesn't *sound* like a well-developed use of Ne, does it? Yes, it does sound like Ne -- probably about the first thing you've shared that sounds like it COULD be. But then you say she does it badly, so I wonder whether it's a *preference* or not.

                          &&& She senses me.

                          *** "Senses" you with her five senses? Like having an awareness of someone standing behind her? Kind of like those martial arts practices where you "sense" an attacker approaching from behind??

                          &&& But I am at a loss to say in what way. I think I intimidate her sometimes(not in a bad way, but in a good way), kind of like she intimidates me.

                          *** Hm, I wonder what that's about. Could it be an introvert/extravert difference? (WYSIWYG versus "still waters run deep"?) Could it be an extraverted Thinking auxiliary vs. extraverted Thinking tertiary? Could it be Theorist vs. Catalyst -or- Improviser?

                          *** There are so many flavors of intimidation to choose from.

                          *** Perhaps the only way to know is to ask. :-/

                          &&& Also, look at what you wrote, below!!! "Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: 'Wearing this might communicate…' "-- No, I am convinced more than ever this hair coloring thing is definitely part of her Intuition now... i specifically remember a conversation we had three months ago about the color of her hair that day and and the symbolizm behind it, and what it meant!

                          *** Say more about that. (How much of the conversation came from you, and how much came from her?)

                          *** BTW, "Symbolism" seems to be more an Ni thing than an Ne thing, depending. (And did I mention that all Improvisers have introverted iNtuiting in their preference pattern?)

                          /// (I just remembered --- my HAIRDRESSER has ESFP preferences. ;-P)

                          &&& Smart one! ;oP

                          *** What does this goddess do for work again?? Or school?

                          /// Let's look at definitions for Extraverted Sensing and Extraverted iNtuiting, because those are the two functions we're trying to choose between (as her preference):

                          Se
                          Extraverted Sensing: Experiencing the immediate context; taking action in the physical world; noticing changes and opportunities for action; accumulating experiences; scanning for visible reactions and relevant data; recognizing “what is.” Noticing what was available, trying on different items, and seeing how they look.

                          Ne
                          Extraverted iNtuiting: Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts. Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: “Wearing this might communicate…”

                          /// So far I haven't heard much evidence of extraverted iNtuiting.

                          /// I do hear a lot of YOUR introverted iNtuiting being stimulated, and I confess it makes me wonder if you even SEE her clearly. (Do you follow me? In other words, maybe the iNtuiting that you're experiencing is YOURS -- highly stimulated -- not HERS.)

                          &&& I hear you loud and clear. I have even wondered exactly this myself.

                          *** Oh good. So you get what I'm talking about.

                          *** Sometimes we do that with our best gifts -- they are so "loud" to us that we assume EVERYBODY is using the same gift. (As in, "Doesn't everybody do that?")

                          *** Jung has said, "In order to be conscious of myself, I must be able to distinguish myself from others. Relationship can only take place where this distinction exists."

                          /// So perhaps we should take care not to get her too "figured out," or the attraction will wane? ;-)

                          &&& I doubt it will wane. I have been thinking that for over six months, and it keeps getting worse!!! I see no way out of this for me except either having her, or getting "crushed" by her. I feel that I am a rat trapped in a ship going down. And I don't know if she is saving that seat beside her in the life boat for me or for someone else.

                          *** It sounds like you're asking, "WHY can't she DECIDE and PUT ME OUT OF MY MISERY?!"

                          *** LOL! sounds like a J/P difference. ;-D

                          *** Hint: she may have already decided, and you haven't caught on yet.

                          /// Certainly it sounds like "wishful thinking" about wanting her to be "N" not "S" -- perhaps in spite of evidence to the contrary.

                          >>> Mmmm. I think the evidence is there, but I am not doing a very good job of communicating it. I can describe the S part, because as you have pointed out, she has in fact become my Aphrodite (I like greek mythology... I will stick with the sexy-- and attainable-- goddess theme). I have already placed her on a pedestal and am describing her to you ... it is a little more difficult to present "evidence" of "N"ing. How do i present abstract evidence?

                          /// I provided some definitions above to play with, but truthfully I don't use type to figure out most people's type. I use Temperament and Interaction Styles together, and that gives me the code more reliably. (Those two models rely on patterns, whereas type relies on preferences, and so evidence can be found for ANYthing.)

                          &&& I will stick by this. I read the definitions above. I do agree with what you are saying. Evidence can be found for ANYthing. You could hop on a plane and fly down and meet her!!! She would really think I was a complete nut then :o( . Maybe I am.

                          *** Uh, where are you located again? Maybe I need a vacation.

                          /// Touche! You have accurately identified that I am campaigning strongly for the possibility that she might have Sensing preferences. Why is that? Because there is a snobbery among type enthusiasts that "S" stands for "stupid" and "N" stands for "iNtelligent," and so... I meet mothers who just Can't Have "One Of Those" for a child, or spouses who Just Can't Be Married to "One Of Those." There is a stigma against Sensing!

                          /// I have an ISFP friend on a Yahoo Groups email list who people write to privately so they may confide she's "too smart" to be "S," or perhaps "too nice," or they will slyly suggest all SPs are in prison.

                          &&& Honestly, i did not know.

                          *** I understand. I'm just letting you know where I'm coming from. There is a terrible "N" bias amongst type users, and the Improviser temperament is particularly disciminated against.

                          *** (AND some of it is unconscious! After all, we are all of us biased AGAINST people who do not share our preferences! Whether or not you have ever heard of type or personality models, you have been making type discriminations since BIRTH.)

                          /// What I've found in my past ten years of experience in the type field is that "SPs" (I prefer to call them "Improvisers") are discounted, diminished, and misunderstood. AND (ironically) they seem to be INVISIBLE to most people.

                          /// One of my coaching clients recently told me she wasn't sure she had ever MET an Improviser. After we did a facilitation session on Temperament, I invited her to look again. On the next call, she laughed and said they were "everywhere." She even realized her own brother was an Improviser.

                          &&& My best friend growing up is an ESFP. I didn't see or speak to him since I was 12 years old, but when I was in Gulf Shores, Alabama a few years ago, stopped by his house, and we picked up like we never left off. It was an amazing experience. We still keep in touch every couple of months. I always liked being around him, particularly as a child, because he always knew all the cool places to be, how to act, and how to have fun. It was always much fun being around him. I confess, we would not be friends today if we met, becuase we are soooooo different. We simply do not not run around in the same circles. He is very successful as a self-employed contractor, although he has trouble managing his books. He also was in federal prison for 3 year several years ago. I guess he had some life experiences teach him a few things.

                          *** And how did you learn his preferences?

                          &&& Also, Aphrodities friend who has set up the night out for the three of us soon, she is an ESFP. I have her for a relief to place Aphrodite against.

                          *** And how did you learn her preferences?

                          /// THUS you are right -- you have my number. If I seem to be pushing HARD about the possibility this woman may be an Improviser, it's a compensation to overcome the layers and layers of bias I usually encounter.

                          /// In my defense, what I notice is that thus far in your presentation of her you've described her in a way that could *easily* be associated with Improvisers, and you have *failed* to make a compelling case for "Catalyst" ("NFs"). Feel free to go back and read your messages again. I'll wait. ;-)

                          /// The only thing you state (without backing it up with any solid evidence or anecdotes) is that you *think* she prefers "N."

                          &&& I still think it.

                          *** I get that you don't "think" it -- you "feel" it. (And that's why I have been expressing concern. If you could "think" it, you would probably have the logic and the articulation for it.)

                          &&& I just know that I can prove it at this time. I think I need a night out with her to know. It is the only way we can have a meaningful conversation. Otherwise I cannot get that much insight into her.

                          *** Now I'm hearing your need for Ni manifest. It craves more Se data to stimulate insights.

                          /// If I were to flatter myself and call myself a "scientist," I'd say that wasn't a very rational argument. :-(

                          &&& I would call you a social scientest. So be flattered. It is more of a soft science, in contrast to the hard science that I practice. You have a lot more unknowns that can affect the outcome, and probably much more limited ways of collecting data. I can see that the internet has greatly changed the way your field can practice.

                          *** Thank you for acknowledging my limitations. The field is probably better in some ways now, and worse in others.

                          &&& On the rational argument thing, we are still speculating. We do not have enough data yet. My intuition tells me she is "N".

                          *** John Beebe has said that iNtuition is "reliable but not infallible." So I figure the jury is still out.

                          /// Yes! Do not jump to conclusions! And I am pushing you to support your hypothesis about her type.

                          /// I push because we ALL seem to fall into "wishfulness" when it comes to type. Goodness, I've known a number of Improvisers by now that tested as something else at first, and I believed it. Boy, when the light came on, it was bright! So I've learned to test and test and test again any hypothesis I have about someone's type, especially if they look like they *might* be an Improviser.

                          &&& Still collecting data. Will share it with you as soon as I can.

                          *** Here are a couple of distinctions for you to collect data on.
                          Does she seem to have better skills at:
                          Diplomatic Synthesis OR Tactical Variation?
                          (Care to guess which is which pattern?)

                          /// Is it okay if I ask you to do the same, and not just gloss over the question? Do you mind being held to the same standard?

                          &&& Yes, you may, and I do not mind at all.

                          *** Thank you for not being offended by my insistence on "due process" and craving for accuracy. Most people who are into type go for quick answers. They use it for "speed-reading" (which tends to be "speed-stereotyping").

                          /// I'd still love to hear your evidence (and have it be more than a vague notion).

                          /// I think you know by reading my article that I do NOT think NFs and NTs are a guaranteed match. In fact, there are some email lists out there that have an entire lore around what they call the "NT/NF Death Spiral." So perhaps it's better if your Aphrodite is NOT an NF!

                          &&& I have read about the "NT/NF Death Spiral". Now that I know what it is, I can recognize it and avoid it.

                          *** LOL!

                          *** Bring me *that* conversation when you're in a place to have it. ;-D

                          /// The core values for all Catalysts are for meaning & significance, and having a unique identity.
                          /// The core values for all Improvisers are for having the freedom to act--now, and an ability to make an impact.

                          /// These are listed in the Berens' books I was telling you about, btw, along with a loooong list of other qualities and behaviors that help readers identify a best-fit pattern.

                          /// (Which of those two sets of core values sound more like your lady?)

                          &&& I want to say the first set. But I can't. I just don't know yet. I can't say the second, either.

                          *** I admire your honesty.

                          /// What I make up is that the two of you are stimulated around extraverted Sensing together. ;-)

                          &&& I am still thinking on this one.

                          *** I appreciate your diligence.

                          /// Not sure what you mean? (Not sure it's important...)

                          &&& In highschool, Kim was very intoxicating for me. She was an NF. It was the best relationship I ever had, but we were both very inexperienced with relationships. I think I got spoiled. I have not been able to find anything close to that feeling until now. The feelings are similar, but not the same.

                          *** And how did you come to know Kim's type?

                          /// Kind of like an overdose I think. And there's so much of that function that you DO get unbalanced. Like eating too much chocolate. It's just... too.... much.

                          &&& So, it just needs to be moderated, then. Why throw out the chocolate? Chocolate is good! I don't want a cuboard full of only broccali!

                          *** It feels like you are jumping quickly here -- to decide whether it's "good" or "bad" or to "salvage" or something. I'm simply trying to lay out the range of the thing, and describe it for you.

                          *** I wondere whether perhaps if you lived with the "giant N" for a number of years you would begin to find it "too much," but that the intoxication in the beginning is very seductive. (Did we just come full circle?)

                          >>> I would like to learn this. I usually live in a state where I feel I am either in contol of myself and my life, or I am being controlled by life.

                          /// Oh yeah. The core values for all Theorists ("NTs") are: having Mastery & Self-Control, and having Knowledge & Competence

                          /// Zat sound familiar? ;-)

                          &&& Yeah, it does.

                          *** So let's play with *your* pattern. Are YOU better at
                          Diplomatic Synthesis OR Strategic Analysis ?
                          (because I gotta say your diplomatic skills are pretty sophisticated. I don't have ANY urge to suggest you suffer from Asperger's. :-P)

                          >>> I like the thought of experiencing a freedom from rationality (but only temperarily), and going with the flow.

                          /// And that's why we get attracted to people who are our "opposites." Whatever type this woman is, she seems to be a RELIEF from too much rationality. (That's why I said one of her attractions is the fact that you *cannot* figure her out.)

                          &&& I want her soooo baddllyy! I have GOT to be COMPLETELY NUTS over this, typing this on the internet!

                          *** Darlin', I feel for you. I really do. (I'm also a little bit jealous. I remember what it used to feel like to want someone That Much. It makes you feel really alive, doesn't it? ;-D)

                          /// I'm a little hesitant about how to respond to this....? It feels like you are making up "rules," and that feels a little heavyhanded over here. :-/

                          &&& Just trying to understand the rules that already exist naturally. I don't have to make them up. They are there. Just want to interpret them.

                          *** Right. I suppose I'm complaining that you charge up a Ladder of Assumption quickly based on very little provocation. (How very iNtuiting of you! :-P)

                          /// I guess I'm pondering how INTJ interfaces with ENFP or ESFP, and you're wanting to elope to Hawaii together. I'm puzzling about how the chemicals combine, and you're making travel arrangements. (This might be an introverted Thinking vs. extraverted Thinking difference. ;-D)

                          &&& ROFL-- Yeah, if I had any guarantee she would go, they would already be booked. Actually, funny you should put it that way. My boss and I have this problem all the time. He is INTP, and his first process is introverted thinking. He is already putting things together in a logical sense in linear motion, and I my thoughts start at how the end should look and work backwards. But it takes me much longer to get a ball rolling on my plan than it does for him. He hates it, because he usually has several starts and stops, having to back track. I usually have one plan and work all the way through it the first time.

                          *** But not always I bet. (And those are the days he lives for.)

                          *** After we get you through this crisis, maybe we can have fun comparing INTP with your pattern.

                          /// I suspect it is your extraverted Sensing anima that is waxing lyrical about her hair, her voice, her tattoo... it is probably a rarely-seen irrational side that you are displaying. And you are quite animated! You are expending a lot of energy on this, ah, project. AND you are very aware of your "inferior" abilities here. You are highly self-conscious of your ignorance about attracting, seducing... You would give *anything* right now to be Orlando Bloom or [your_movie_star_hunk_here]. You'd like to "spill the wine, get that girl," and yet you can't seem to button your shirt right and are tripping over your own feet when you "casually" drop by to see her. It's as if you're 14 years old again, only now you know that wearing "eau de cologne" isn't adequate to hold her interest. You wish you were better looking, sexier, had more money and a better car to impress her with. A great pad wouldn't hurt either.

                          &&& ROFL- You are sooo funnnnyyy!!! And true. Except I have most of those things, and still feel inadequate against her social graces and sweet smile, and soft voice. My GOD! She is young, has no formal education past highschool, and works in a store! And she seems LIGHTYEARS ahead of me!! How do I impress her!!??!! Tell me, please!!

                          *** I imagine you already have impressed her -- or not! ;-D

                          /// That's an extraverted Sensing anima.

                          /// Here's one by the author who wrote the other one, but I dunno how good it is:
                          www.amazon.com/Man-Power-...767-8082509

                          &&& Thanks!

                          *** Yer welcome! Please share a review in return if you read it?

                          /// Kevin Hogan has written a few based on NLP as well, like this:
                          www.amazon.com/Irresistib...767-8082509

                          &&& Thanks!

                          *** Yer welcome! Please share a review in return if you read it? (I don't want to recommend it to others unless you think it has value.)

                          *** What I have found is that INTJs seem to do well with NLP techniques -- it's a rational system for dealing with human interfaces. In combination with type, it can provide a pretty useful framework to better cope with those human "things."

                          /// Truthfully, though... chances are, regardless of whether the object of your affections prefers ENFP or ESFP, she probably already is completely clued-in to what's up with you, and you're about five miles behind. (Sorry to break it to you like this.)

                          &&& Uh-oh. What do I do, now, then!?

                          *** See below.

                          /// Um, enjoy yourself? I suspect control is entirely out of your hands at this point.

                          &&& Ok. I will.

                          *** LOL. Keep us posted?

                          /// Curiously, I think I am being more objective than you right now. (My experience of you through this dialogue is that you're sounding very SUBjective.)

                          &&& ROFL-- VJ... It is because I DO NOT KNOW what the hell I am doing!!!! She might be the most important girl in my life, and if I miss my opportunity, I won't have her. How will I know? Up until now, I haven't even been able to get a conversation with her longer than a few sentences at a time. She is the "Red Haired Girl" in Charlie Brown!

                          *** Oh dear. I have the crappiest thing to tell you then. Beebe says that DomNi types are NOTORIOUS for Missing Opportunities. :-(

                          *** :-(

                          *** Slipping on my coach hat, what more can you do to forward the action on this particular opportunity? Is your conscience nagging you that there's an action you're avoiding? Like..... -- Asking Her Out? Or, is your iNtuition telling you to "be cool, lay low, don't push"?

                          *** What's that "inner voice" whispering to you?

                          *** I trust that voice -- the wise voice. (Not the fearful, ego-driven voice. YOU know the one I mean.)

                          /// Man, don't MAKE me do a commercial for my self-discovery work! (I have an excellent track record though. ;-D)

                          &&& Actually, after I read this comment above, I went and did a little more homework on you. I did not know you were as active in your field as you apparently are. I have been to your Type Insights website before. I did not know who you were before now. But I am glad we have become friends, as well as you can be online, I guess. ;o)

                          *** I'm curious now. Why did you visit previously? What brought you there? (I'm still trying to get my bearings online, and figure out how to develop my practice.)

                          /// Okay, here's the deal: the One Thing we know BOTH the ESFP and ENFP have in common is this:

                          /// Both these patterns share a "Get-Things-Going" interaction style. They like to *involve* and *be involved*.
                          www.InteractionStyles.com They tend to be optimistic and fun to be around.

                          /// Both of them ALSO meet the world with their extraverted Perceiving preference (the "ADD" muscle), and "having fun" is pretty important.

                          /// There's probably lots more to say on those two points, but I confess it's late and I'm tiring. I'll see if I think of more tomorrow.

                          &&& Thanks for the suggestions!!! Now I have to turn into FUN GUY! Actually, I think I can pull it off rather easily.

                          *** Uhhhhh.... Where did it say you were supposed to become the FUN GUY??

                          *** It seems to me from over here that a better job for you is to APPRECIATE her being the FUN GIRL. To value and admire that. Honor and appreciate it.

                          *** Look, if I'm a good singer, do I want somebody else to come onstage and start singing? Or do I want somebody to applaud and tell me what a great singer I am, and how nobody else has ever sung like me before, and it brought tears to your eyes?

                          *** In similar fashion, what are you brilliant at? What do you want people to admire in you?

                          *** In a nutshell, it's common for people to marry their admirers.

                          *** Is that 'nuff said??

                          >>> VJ ...*solomnly*... I like a LOT of innuendo. But I like a variety, too. Sex can serve as a release, and should be straight forward in such situations. It can also be a VERY intimate way of expressing Love, and these times should be approached with sacred care of the other persons expectations, as well as your own for these special times. And there are Many shades of grey in between.

                          /// Are you sure you have INTJ prefs? Have you ever tried on INFJ? ;-P

                          &&& I am sure I am INTJ. I can say that I have learned through a lot of trial and error what works romantically. I have grown much myself in this area. I like thinking about it.

                          *** I have some great self-discovery programs that reeeeally crack open insights about type in a highly structured format. People come away with a profound sense of who they are and what they bring to the world more than anything they've previously experienced. (Yes, that's a commercial.)

                          *** Seriously... I love this work, because I've seen people TRANSFORM through working with me. To receive full permission to be who they are, and honor their values, and take a stand -- what could be better?

                          &&& Thanks!

                          *** You are welcome! I'm glad you've enjoyed the exploration, and I hope you've gotten some valuable insights from it. (I hope we haven't bored everybody else on the board to tears!)

                          /// It feels like the only *real* question on the table is this one: "How do I obtain my heart's desire?"

                          /// Does any of the rest of it really matter?

                          &&& Nothing else matters.

                          *** That's what I thought.

                          *** So.... what's the learning in this experience for you? (And it's okay if you don't wish to share it here.)

                          /// You seem like a great guy, and I'd like to see you happy and satisfied in a rewarding relationship. I'm not sure whether my "type analysis" is contributing to that outcome or not -- only you can say.

                          &&& Awww! You are very sweet! And I say, "YES !!!" :OD I do think as much, just having you here to talk makes me feel better about it. You give me much to think about. And in light of what you say in the next comment, I think you are right about being distracted from panic.

                          *** It's nice to PRETEND we have some control, even when we don't. And I like how you seem to be consciously choosing how you want to "be with" this experience. It's very positive, enthusiastic, and admirable. I like how you're showing up around this! You show courage.

                          /// Perhaps it's keeping you distracted from the panic of not knowing what else to do? So maybe it's effective as a stalling tactic until your Venus plays her cards.

                          /// I say again, "enjoy yourself"!

                          &&& I will! Thanks!

                          *** You go, boy! Go GET that E_FP goddess! ;-P

                          -Vicky Jo ;-)
                          www.TypeInsights.com
                          • Hey VJ!!

                            Sorry I have not posted this week, yet. Much of my evenings have been spent preparing for volunteer and committee work that I volunteered for earlier in the year. I tried to repsond to your post below this one a few days ago because i thought it would be shorter, but it took me until now to finish it out. Now I reply to this one.

                            --
                            w: She has an impact, alright. I am going NUTS trying to contain myself around her... without spilling out a flood of emotion on her.

                            vj: I wonder what process it is that you're struggling to "contain." :-/

                            **w: I think I am struggling with containing Fi. There is so much I want to say to her, and probe with her, but cannot in mixed company. So, my Fi (clarifying values to achieve accord) is strugging with my Fe (deciding if something is apporpriate or acceptable to others). Fe is a shadow process for me, and I am experiencing it in a negative way, since my stimulation of it is as constraints barring me from making advancements toward accumulation of data so that I can form clarity of her feelings in relation to my own). Furthermore, i think this is happening because my Ni isn't enough to accumulate the data, my Te isn't succeeding in forcing it to accumulate, and so Fi is trying to support it against a backdrop of social settings in which I am not used to opporating. I feel I can get the data I need rather skillfully and *relatively* transparent in a one-on-one conversation with Aphrodite. Which never seems to be able to manifest itself.

                            --
                            w: I promise you, what I descibe may be the five sense things, but it stems from the fact that she has MUCH more of a psycological effect on me. VJ, I have seen and dated better looking women. I do not know any other way to describe it. There is just something else there..... her way.... I simply cannot describe it. I have to get to know her better. Then I will be able to pinpoint it. I think. Something about her is elusive... someting there that I should be able to see clearly, but it is opaque, and I can't quite. I WANT her. There is an inoscence there, too. I do identifiy with that.

                            vj: Right. And --

                            I GET that you're activated. (Kind of hard to miss!) But ANY of the processes can have a "psychological effect." John Beebe claims his introverted Sensing anima showed up in a dream of a Chinese laundress, of all things. So the subjectiveness of your experience may be clouding the objectivity needed to discern her type. Dya follow me?

                            *w: Maybe. But I think it has as much or more to do with my field work experience. I barely have a theoretical grasp of the terms without having to go back and look up each of the processes each time I talk about them. Couple this with the fact that I have NO field work experience, and therefore very little experience isolating which action corresponds to/from which process. But I am getting there.

                            This is further compounded by the fact that I STILL don't know her very well.

                            --
                            vj: Reason #4385758 why this conversation is so hard to have via email. What a person tells you is going on versus what IS going on sometimes don't match up very well. We are none of us entirely "self-aware," as much as we wish it so.

                            Sometimes I ask my clients whether they can see other peoples' issues, challenges, "shadow." And of course they always can. But they know enough not to *tell* the other person. We've pretty much all learned that, right?

                            And then I say, "Well, if you can see their stuff, don't you think they can see some of yours that you can't see?" And after a minute or two, they concede that's probably so.

                            (sometimes I wonder how we manage to relate at ALL)

                            **w: Hop out the window and come down!!! Or I could come up, we could talk, see each others shadows, sew them back on, then you could come down, and we could go after Aphrodite's shadows!! (and then her Heart!) Tinkerbell is *qualified* to help us! (*I think she has experience*)

                            --
                            w: Awww. You called me "Darlin'". And it only took our third date!

                            vj: My grandmother helped her daddy build split-rail fences in Arkansas, and my name is "Vicky Jo." So I can channel a little "southern" sometimes, despite my living in Hollywood.

                            **w: I can receive a little southern, too ;o) My father's side is from Alabama, my mother's side is from Arkansas, and I grew up in southern Arkansas. Despite my living in Baltimore, I can Channel it back at cha! (it is very alluring and connected culture, though... don't cha think?)

                            w: Seriously... MAYBE I am reaching. However, I still think she is N. I cannot prove it. I just KNOW she is. Besides, isn't being drawn to change an EXTRAVERTED Intuiting function?

                            vj: Uh, that feels like a BSG (broad sweeping generalization)? I will concede that E__P's like to stay on top of what's NEW and crave novel experiences, but they aren't necessarily any better with change than anyone else. (They do prefer VARIETY, and both might be considered "early adopters.")

                            **w: Aren't all the processes broad sweeping generalizations by themselves? We use them anyway in parallel and tandem to siphon out personality characteristics against the relief of what's left. It's just an analysis tool, only as effective as the theory it is built on, the methods we have of detecting it, and the experience and skill we have in evaluating the results.

                            --
                            w:Also, ESFP's usually are not patient with long theoretical explanations, right? Prefering instead a practical explanation, or to make simple but broad sweeping statements?

                            vj: Y'mean, are they stupid??

                            **w: Absolutely not. I mean that instead, aren't they are usually uninterested in the theory, preferring instead the practicalities of a situation? The girl i have been with for the last 10 years, let's call her Athena, is an ESTP, and she is extremely smart. Smarter than me. But her talents and preferences are in-the-moment analysis and problem solving. (she is also VERY good at sizing up people within a few minutes of meeting them, where it takes me a few months to come to the same conclusions-- but her judgement on people is limited only to situational motivation-- which makes her good in business-- while my judgement is usually more accurate about the HUMANITY of a person; i.e., that good people can do very bad things, while bad people can also do very good things, what each should be help accountable for, and wheather they really intended to perform a good or bad action or not, and what the long term impact on the victim/beneficier will be.

                            vj: Y'mean they want you to cut to the chase, get to the point?

                            **w: Something like that.

                            vj: One of the most brilliant people I've ever known had ESFP preferences, and he introduced me to a number of theories I was previously unaware of. I found his company enthralling.

                            **w: Are you sure his preferences were ESFP? How do you know? (<-- taken directly from the "Book of Tactics" by Vicky Jo)

                            And, also, a person's preferences doesn't mean that they are unable to address or invent theory or not, or that they are smart or not. It is simply a preference. That is, when everything is at "rest", where do they tend back to? Let me know what you think of these set of statements:

                            Some people seem not to fit so "neatly" into the squares. These are hybrids, which may carry characteristics of more than one "type". I think these are not rare, but not the norm, either. But, I am not an expert. I have read that more often than not, people do have one preference a little stronger than another, and that will define their behavioral characteristics. I don't know how true it is. And, the way the E/I S/N T/F J/P worlds are defined, you are really either one or the other, right? I mean if we define the line between the two extremes to be in a particular place, then you are either on one side or the other, right? It is these lines that divides us into the "boxes". Now, the preference profiles are defined over 16 types for MBTI (4 behavioral temperaments for the "Keirsey way"), and at the end of the day, only YOU can decide how YOU best fit. So maybe there is some overlap, or give and take on YOUR EXACT type/profile, but having the type/profile construct there to show our characteristics as a relief against "other types" is certainly better than NOT having it, right? So, I place [Person x] into a box, because I choose to, and you, myself, and everyone else, with the caveat that it may not be 100% accurate. BUT, it is a BEGINNING place for me to understand the person. And sometimes, that is all I need. Sometimes, not.

                            What this construct does not address is that there is different "maturity" levels and "talent" levels in people. Think of it like this. Imagine ALL of the MBTI types arranged in the 4x4 matrix you commonly see them in. Now, pick up this 2-dimensional piece of paper, and wrap it around so that the left side touches the right side, forming a cylinder, and then "roll" the top and bottom toward the inside until they touch, forming a "donut". Now, this "3-Dimensional" construct does a couple of things: (a) we have all types touching the next type by one letter change, and (b) depth is represented by going down into the donut. We can let the depth represent a product of (i) talent AND (ii) maturity. For instance, what we mean by talent is analogous to a football player. One can have MUCH more natural talant than others in a given area. Even if your preferences are one way over the other (and there is belief that your dominant preferences are guided by your natural talents, which feeds back into steering your preferences, and on and on), you can be near the top or bottom of the spectrum on these talents against other people even though they may be YOUR most preferred (and usually that means your most natual talents, as well). In the case of a football player, the most talented ones, if their talant is practiced and developed, go on to play professional ball. They are the best at their skill. If they are not talented, they do not progress. If the are talented, but not developed, they do not progress. If they are mediocre in one, they can componsate some with the other and progress some. If they are excellant in both, then they are at the top of their game. So, this is how I imagine it.

                            And at the end of the day, some people are just real jerks. I am not. Neither are you.

                            --
                            w: She is soooo not like that. And also, aren't ENFP's VERY imaginative? This girl is...

                            vj: Imagination? Well, I know both ENFP and ESFP screenwriters, which seems to require imagination. As a computer consultant, I often met both ESFP and ENFP geeks -- I knew an ENFP who did "help desk" stuff, and an ESFP who was in charge of web development for a division of Disney. (Given their relative positions, one might suppose the ENFP would be the executive and the ESFP would be the help-desk if you buy into stereotypes.)

                            **w: I do not buy into stereotypes. But I do choose to use personality types, even with their caveats and flaws (on some level, isn't persoanlity type a type of sterotype? :oP). It is not a perfected theory yet, and I am not skilled enough in this field to create the necessary perfections, so I will use what we have. I think you are attempting to perfect some of the analysis tools, and from what I have seen, I believe you have both the skill and dedication to do it! If I can help you, please let me know. You much fun to work with!

                            w: she seems to enjoy telling me about dreams she has had....

                            vj: I guess I'm wondering whether she relates the events or her interpretation. Is it about what happened, or about what it all means? (Although, is she driving that conversation or are you?)

                            **w: Yes. i see what you mean. After some reflection, I think the particular conversation we had was her telling me what happened, and "us" talking about what it meant. The conversation wasn't long enough for me to determine who was driving what, and it was a long time ago. Will have to follow up on this with her when I see an opportunity. I will try to be more concious of it next time.

                            w: Although I think she may read things into people and situations that are not there sometimes. Which is kind of attractive, too... I think she has made that mistake with me before, but it was kind of negative. It took me a while to win favor back with her. Sometimes it is positive. I dunno. She seems to draw meaning from the way we look at each other sometimes, because her behavior changes-- slightly. Like the other day, when she looked up and saw it was me by suprise, and she immediately blushed ten shades of red.

                            vj: "Reading things into people and situations" but doing it BADLY? That doesn't *sound* like a well-developed use of Ne, does it? Yes, it does sound like Ne -- probably about the first thing you've shared that sounds like it COULD be. But then you say she does it badly, so I wonder whether it's a *preference* or not.

                            **w: ...hhhmmmmm. I see what you mean. I don't know, though. I am giving you a lot of innuendo, and I don't really know what of what I am relaying in this particular instance is accurate or not. My perceptions may be off, here, too.

                            w: She senses me.

                            vj: "Senses" you with her five senses? Like having an awareness of someone standing behind her? Kind of like those martial arts practices where you "sense" an attacker approaching from behind??

                            **w: No. Nothing like any of that. She "knows" what I want from her. Even though it has never been said. I think. She perries sometimes, she bates sometimes, but she never invites... until recently.

                            w: But I am at a loss to say in what way. I think I intimidate her sometimes(not in a bad way, but in a good way), kind of like she intimidates me.

                            vj: Hm, I wonder what that's about. Could it be an introvert/extravert difference? (WYSIWYG versus "still waters run deep"?) Could it be an extraverted Thinking auxiliary vs. extraverted Thinking tertiary? Could it be Theorist vs. Catalyst -or- Improviser?

                            There are so many flavors of intimidation to choose from.

                            Perhaps the only way to know is to ask. :-/

                            **w: Have you bumped your head!!??!! How do I do *that*?

                            *blink*

                            Actually, that is a good idea. How do I corner her into this kind of conversation? Since we had our first little *social* last night, I now have her phone number. I cannot help but believe this was intentional, since she has had my number months ago and never called (she probably threw it away). Now she has called. So I have her number in my mobile phone. And she knows it. Our visit was also very brief last night with one of her girlfriends, and another one of her colleague/friends (who helped set this up-- I didn't ask, her friend offered). Our "meeting" was an activity she crammed between two other activities that I think were a little more important to her. God, she looked good!!! But I don't think it was for me. Her and her friend were going to a concert, and I heard mention of other guys. :o( I am eating my heart out as I type (and TYPE). I wished she was dressing like that for ME!!! She did walk with me past my car, and give me a hug before we all left though. I think this is definitely "potential friend" status. So the question becomes, how to parlay that into "relationship" status. So maybe she is checking me out. I don't know. I need more data.

                            w: Also, look at what you wrote, below!!! "Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: 'Wearing this might communicate…' "-- No, I am convinced more than ever this hair coloring thing is definitely part of her Intuition now... i specifically remember a conversation we had three months ago about the color of her hair that day and and the symbolizm behind it, and what it meant!

                            vj: Say more about that. (How much of the conversation came from you, and how much came from her?)

                            BTW, "Symbolism" seems to be more an Ni thing than an Ne thing, depending. (And did I mention that all Improvisers have introverted iNtuiting in their preference pattern?)

                            **w: *blink* Now that I reflect back on it, I think it came mostly from me. As I recall, she fed into it with some of her own insights, but I think i initiated it with a coule of comments.

                            vj:(I just remembered --- my HAIRDRESSER has ESFP preferences. ;-P)

                            w: Smart one! ;oP

                            vj: What does this goddess do for work again?? Or school?

                            **w: weeelllll... this is the first thing you have asked me that really makes me look at things the way they are (Si, that you complained about in the post below). Let's pick this apart. Since I we had a little *social* last night, and I am already detecting a little brown in the grass, I can start dismantling her pedistal.

                            (1) I think she is probably about 22. So not too age inappropriate, chrolologically. However, I think what does make her age inappropriate is the the fact that she still lives at home. Therefore, what kind of life experiences could she have possibly had? She hasn't had to get out and fight for anything, yet, namely her own survival, so how could she possbily value the failures and successes it takes to have something stable?

                            (2) She is not in school, and from what I can see she doens't appear to have any ambition of going. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. She enjoys local popularity, and i think this means that unless she chooses to let go, and go after a college experience where one must "start over" and define themselves again, then her growth pattern is already locked in to those people already a part of her social structure, with little room for rapid, NEw influence or growth from knowing people like me or others. Not that it won't happen, just that it will take years for us to slowly filter in for her.

                            (3) She works still works in her first job as a store clerk. (*what the HELL am I thinking?*) I did just learn this a couple of days ago.

                            (4) God she looks good, touches my heart, and I still want her. Although, maybe not as badly as yesterday. Until I see her again. Then I will want her as badly as yesterday.

                            vj: Let's look at definitions for Extraverted Sensing and Extraverted iNtuiting, because those are the two functions we're trying to choose between (as her preference):

                            Se
                            Extraverted Sensing: Experiencing the immediate context; taking action in the physical world; noticing changes and opportunities for action; accumulating experiences; scanning for visible reactions and relevant data; recognizing “what is.” Noticing what was available, trying on different items, and seeing how they look.

                            Ne
                            Extraverted iNtuiting: Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts. Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: “Wearing this might communicate…”

                            vj: So far I haven't heard much evidence of extraverted iNtuiting.

                            I do hear a lot of YOUR introverted iNtuiting being stimulated, and I confess it makes me wonder if you even SEE her clearly. (Do you follow me? In other words, maybe the iNtuiting that you're experiencing is YOURS -- highly stimulated -- not HERS.)

                            w: I hear you loud and clear. I have even wondered exactly this myself.

                            vj: Oh good. So you get what I'm talking about.

                            Sometimes we do that with our best gifts -- they are so "loud" to us that we assume EVERYBODY is using the same gift. (As in, "Doesn't everybody do that?")

                            **w: Yeah.... about that. I am not sure if you realize yet that I am capable of Giant "N"ing all by myself. I do get a little high from it sometimes. My house looks like hell. I just had my water shut off the other day because I hadn't paid my water bill in 6 months. This usually happens about twice a year. I am not lazy. I work all the time. I have money (I am not rich), and had plenty of money to pay my bill. But I looked up one day, and the water didn't work anymore. I don't know where my time went. I spend all of my time.... doing... other things... and it was hard work. Lately, my time has been spent trying to get her, or try to figure out what my fixation is on her, so I can either get her, or get her off my plate and get someone else (preferably another ENFP (I want to "Super 'N'" together)-- or ESFP if it turn out you are right) so I can go back to being productive. I am on a time table. I have to get this worked out. I know you are going to say I might be a P, not a J, and I do believe I have many more P tendancies than I used to. But I am still a J. I am just at point in my life where I am absorbed in trying to "fix" a lot of things.

                            vj: Jung has said, "In order to be conscious of myself, I must be able to distinguish myself from others. Relationship can only take place where this distinction exists."

                            --
                            vj: So perhaps we should take care not to get her too "figured out," or the attraction will wane? ;-)

                            w: I doubt it will wane. I have been thinking that for over six months, and it keeps getting worse!!! I see no way out of this for me except either having her, or getting "crushed" by her. I feel that I am a rat trapped in a ship going down. And I don't know if she is saving that seat beside her in the life boat for me or for someone else.

                            vj: It sounds like you're asking, "WHY can't she DECIDE and PUT ME OUT OF MY MISERY?!"

                            LOL! sounds like a J/P difference. ;-D

                            Hint: she may have already decided, and you haven't caught on yet.

                            **w: I think you are right. She has already decided, and that is that we should be "friends". So... before we weren't friends, and somehow, the path for "friends" was created. There must be a way to create the next opportunity for "romantic interest". But if she has already entertained the thought, and decided friends, then that is it. Right now. Unless she decided "friends" to have me around as an "option" for later, in which case we are still on. Right? So, let's just sweep the other annoying facts under the rug so that we can focus on the possibilities, with the caveat that we know they are under the rug. Besides, aren't there problems in all relationships? We can deal with those when we get to the relationship part. Did I just hear an echo?


                            Where the hell am I going with this, anyway? This is just crazy!! But if she eventually comes around, and says "yes" then doesn't that make it "our" craziness? What a fun relationship!!

                            vj: Certainly it sounds like "wishful thinking" about wanting her to be "N" not "S" -- perhaps in spite of evidence to the contrary.

                            w: Mmmm. I think the evidence is there, but I am not doing a very good job of communicating it. I can describe the S part, because as you have pointed out, she has in fact become my Aphrodite (I like greek mythology... I will stick with the sexy-- and attainable-- goddess theme). I have already placed her on a pedestal and am describing her to you ... it is a little more difficult to present "evidence" of "N"ing. How do i present abstract evidence?

                            vj: I provided some definitions above to play with, but truthfully I don't use type to figure out most people's type. I use Temperament and Interaction Styles together, and that gives me the code more reliably. (Those two models rely on patterns, whereas type relies on preferences, and so evidence can be found for ANYthing.)

                            w: I will stick by this. I read the definitions above. I do agree with what you are saying. Evidence can be found for ANYthing. You could hop on a plane and fly down and meet her!!! She would really think I was a complete nut then :o( . Maybe I am.

                            vj: Uh, where are you located again? Maybe I need a vacation.

                            **w: Baltimore. Come on down, Princess.

                            vj: Touche! You have accurately identified that I am campaigning strongly for the possibility that she might have Sensing preferences. Why is that? Because there is a snobbery among type enthusiasts that "S" stands for "stupid" and "N" stands for "iNtelligent," and so... I meet mothers who just Can't Have "One Of Those" for a child, or spouses who Just Can't Be Married to "One Of Those." There is a stigma against Sensing!

                            I have an ISFP friend on a Yahoo Groups email list who people write to privately so they may confide she's "too smart" to be "S," or perhaps "too nice," or they will slyly suggest all SPs are in prison.

                            w: Honestly, i did not know.

                            vj: I understand. I'm just letting you know where I'm coming from. There is a terrible "N" bias amongst type users, and the Improviser temperament is particularly disciminated against.

                            (AND some of it is unconscious! After all, we are all of us biased AGAINST people who do not share our preferences! Whether or not you have ever heard of type or personality models, you have been making type discriminations since BIRTH.)

                            **w: Right. So... if I understand you correctly, What we have established is that "N" is for iNtelligent and "S" is for Stupid. I got it.

                            LOL- (just kidding) I think we have driven this point in the ground. I believe you, I am with you, so let's quit stereo-typing and just put everyone into Type boxes instead (ROFL).

                            Seriously, I get it. And I very much respect the field.

                            w: My best friend growing up is an ESFP. I didn't see or speak to him since I was 12 years old, but when I was in Gulf Shores, Alabama a few years ago, stopped by his house, and we picked up like we never left off. It was an amazing experience. We still keep in touch every couple of months. I always liked being around him, particularly as a child, because he always knew all the cool places to be, how to act, and how to have fun. It was always much fun being around him. I confess, we would not be friends today if we met, becuase we are soooooo different. We simply do not not run around in the same circles. He is very successful as a self-employed contractor, although he has trouble managing his books. He also was in federal prison for 3 year several years ago. I guess he had some life experiences teach him a few things.

                            vj: And how did you learn his preferences?

                            **w: I tested him on one of our trips together. And I can see you *wincing* at me.

                            w: Also, Aphrodities friend who has set up the night out for the three of us soon, she is an ESFP. I have her for a relief to place Aphrodite against.

                            vj: And how did you learn her preferences?

                            **w: I tested her the same time that I tested Aphroditie. I didn't want it to look like I was targeting just Aphroditie. They both thought they were helping me debug my program. And I made sure that I debugged my program with their responses, but I didn't need to.

                            vj: The only thing you state (without backing it up with any solid evidence or anecdotes) is that you *think* she prefers "N."

                            w: I still think it.

                            vj: I get that you don't "think" it -- you "feel" it. (And that's why I have been expressing concern. If you could "think" it, you would probably have the logic and the articulation for it.)

                            w: I just know that I can prove it at this time. I think I need a night out with her to know. It is the only way we can have a meaningful conversation. Otherwise I cannot get that much insight into her.

                            vj: Now I'm hearing your need for Ni manifest. It craves more Se data to stimulate insights.

                            **w: So, this is how this works.

                            --
                            vj: If I were to flatter myself and call myself a "scientist," I'd say that wasn't a very rational argument. :-(

                            w: I would call you a social scientest. So be flattered. It is more of a soft science, in contrast to the hard science that I practice. You have a lot more unknowns that can affect the outcome, and probably much more limited ways of collecting data. I can see that the internet has greatly changed the way your field can practice.

                            vj: Thank you for acknowledging my limitations. The field is probably better in some ways now, and worse in others.

                            w: On the rational argument thing, we are still speculating. We do not have enough data yet. My intuition tells me she is "N".

                            vj: John Beebe has said that iNtuition is "reliable but not infallible." So I figure the jury is still out.

                            **w: We went out on a little *social* last night-- just a couple of her girlfriends and myself for about 30 minutes. The jury is still out. I need a conversation with *HER*.

                            vj: Yes! Do not jump to conclusions! And I am pushing you to support your hypothesis about her type.

                            I push because we ALL seem to fall into "wishfulness" when it comes to type. Goodness, I've known a number of Improvisers by now that tested as something else at first, and I believed it. Boy, when the light came on, it was bright! So I've learned to test and test and test again any hypothesis I have about someone's type, especially if they look like they *might* be an Improviser.

                            w: Still collecting data. Will share it with you as soon as I can.

                            vj: Here are a couple of distinctions for you to collect data on.
                            Does she seem to have better skills at:
                            Diplomatic Synthesis OR Tactical Variation?
                            (Care to guess which is which pattern?)

                            **w: Before last night, I would have said Diplomatic Synthesis, but now I am not as sure. I still lean toward diplomatic synthesis, because Aphrodite set all of this up-- in between two other events she was attending. And it was all about having the correct people at each event-- I think so that certain people wouldn't feel uncomfortable. I think she is not as good on tactical variation, because the timing was WAY off for our event, so we were all late, and didn't have much time together, but I confess I don't think I have seen her have to "shift gears" or "respond" in that way. Plus, she did say one thing that made me not feel so comfortable, but I don't know that she even knew she was doing it. I think her friend, the one that helped set this up, and that tested out as an ESFP did pick this up, and seemed a little perturbed, but it was just one comment, and was all VERY subtle. Like, I might even be imagining it, but I don't think so.

                            I think diplomatic synthesis means something like "linking the interests of all parties into an acceptable, coherent, organized set of priorities", where I would guess tactical variation means something like, "changing ones approach to affect a desired outcome". Diplomatic Synthesis involves abstract planning, tactical variation requires a knowledge or intuition of different processes that may work to affect a given situation. Am I right? I also think diplomatic synthesis is an Ne function, where tactical variation is an Se function. Se is the dominant function for how ESFP views the world, where Ne is the dominant function for how ENFP views the world.

                            I still lean toward diplomatic synthesis.

                            --
                            vj: Is it okay if I ask you to do the same, and not just gloss over the question? Do you mind being held to the same standard?

                            w: Yes, you may, and I do not mind at all.

                            vj: Thank you for not being offended by my insistence on "due process" and craving for accuracy. Most people who are into type go for quick answers. They use it for "speed-reading" (which tends to be "speed-stereotyping").

                            I'd still love to hear your evidence (and have it be more than a vague notion).

                            vj: I think you know by reading my article that I do NOT think NFs and NTs are a guaranteed match. In fact, there are some email lists out there that have an entire lore around what they call the "NT/NF Death Spiral." So perhaps it's better if your Aphrodite is NOT an NF!

                            w: I have read about the "NT/NF Death Spiral". Now that I know what it is, I can recognize it and avoid it.

                            vj: LOL!

                            Bring me *that* conversation when you're in a place to have it. ;-D

                            **w: Ok. But it may not happen with this one. It might be another one. I hope it is this one.

                            vj: The core values for all Catalysts are for meaning & significance, and having a unique identity.
                            vj: The core values for all Improvisers are for having the freedom to act--now, and an ability to make an impact.

                            vj: These are listed in the Berens' books I was telling you about, btw, along with a loooong list of other qualities and behaviors that help readers identify a best-fit pattern.

                            vj: (Which of those two sets of core values sound more like your lady?)

                            w: I want to say the first set. But I can't. I just don't know yet. I can't say the second, either.

                            vj: I admire your honesty.

                            **w: I still can't say on these two. I didn't see either preference manifest itself, except for the unique identity thing. She was going to a concert afterwards, and she was dressed up. She looked VERY nice.

                            vj: What I make up is that the two of you are stimulated around extraverted Sensing together. ;-)

                            w: I am still thinking on this one.

                            vj: I appreciate your diligence.

                            **w: Thank you. But, it may just be me stimulated around Se.

                            --
                            vj: Not sure what you mean? (Not sure it's important...)

                            w: In highschool, Kim was very intoxicating for me. She was an NF. It was the best relationship I ever had, but we were both very inexperienced with relationships. I think I got spoiled. I have not been able to find anything close to that feeling until now. The feelings are similar, but not the same.

                            vj: And how did you come to know Kim's type?

                            **w: weelllll..... I pulled out Kiersey and Bate's book, ran down the questions, and answered them for her based off of how I thought she would answer 12 years after we dated in highschool. The S/N thing was really the only one I thought was tough, so I read through those profiles until I was comfortable with which one I thought she was.

                            And I see you *wincing* again. You have a right too. Please don't be mad at me. I have no other way of know what type made me happy. Besides, we dated for 3 years.

                            vj: Kind of like an overdose I think. And there's so much of that function that you DO get unbalanced. Like eating too much chocolate. It's just... too.... much.

                            w: So, it just needs to be moderated, then. Why throw out the chocolate? Chocolate is good! I don't want a cuboard full of only broccali!

                            vj: It feels like you are jumping quickly here -- to decide whether it's "good" or "bad" or to "salvage" or something. I'm simply trying to lay out the range of the thing, and describe it for you.

                            vj: I wondere whether perhaps if you lived with the "giant N" for a number of years you would begin to find it "too much," but that the intoxication in the beginning is very seductive. (Did we just come full circle?)

                            **w: I think I can "Giant N" by myself. I want to "Super N". I do see where you are coming from. You have the experience in that type of relationship. I do not.

                            --
                            w: I would like to learn this. I usually live in a state where I feel I am either in contol of myself and my life, or I am being controlled by life.

                            vj: Oh yeah. The core values for all Theorists ("NTs") are: having Mastery & Self-Control, and having Knowledge & Competence

                            vj: Zat sound familiar? ;-)

                            w: Yeah, it does.

                            vj: So let's play with *your* pattern. Are YOU better at
                            Diplomatic Synthesis OR Strategic Analysis ?
                            (because I gotta say your diplomatic skills are pretty sophisticated. I don't have ANY urge to suggest you suffer from Asperger's. :-P)

                            **w: Ok, let's play. Strategic Analysis. Everything is like a big chess board, and Diplomacy is just a tool as a means to an end for me. I completely suck at executing tactics, or even having a clue what tactics there are that gets me the results I want, although I have gotten a little better.

                            I am curious, though. Why do you say my diplomatic skills are sophisticated? I never thought they were, really. It is only after being in the corporate world for a number of years that I have had to recognize and use diplomacy regularly. And usually, I am seething mad when I have too, because I feel like I am getting screwed!!

                            Also, I have had a lot of hurt in my life, so I try to be cognizant of other's feelings when I can. Particularly when money is involved. Especially MY money.

                            Also, the Southern thing. I grew up experiencing it. Flattery gets you everywhere when you are young. And, as I have discovered, it feels good when you are older. Also, when it is sincere, it is the best. So I keep it as a comfort, a tool, and a weapon. Also, we grew up in a fundamental church going family, where what was "just" was encouraged, even if it meant going to someone you have wronged and apologizing. We kept disputes out of courts. As i got older, I realized that if you wanted justice, you'd better try to create it yourself, or between you an the person who had wronged you (or you them). A court only renders a decision. It may not be just. Justice is respected. So diplomacy must include some semblance of justice (for all).

                            Finally, the only bit of ethics I learned in school sums up my philosophy on it.

                            "It is OK to treat someone as a means-to-an-end, SO LONG AS you ALSO treat them as an end-in-themselves."

                            I think Kant or someone wrote it.

                            --
                            w: I like the thought of experiencing a freedom from rationality (but only temperarily), and going with the flow.

                            vj: And that's why we get attracted to people who are our "opposites." Whatever type this woman is, she seems to be a RELIEF from too much rationality. (That's why I said one of her attractions is the fact that you *cannot* figure her out.)

                            w: I want her soooo baddllyy! I have GOT to be COMPLETELY NUTS over this, typing this on the internet!

                            vj: Darlin', I feel for you. I really do. (I'm also a little bit jealous. I remember what it used to feel like to want someone That Much. It makes you feel really alive, doesn't it? ;-D)

                            **w: Yes, it does make me feel alive. Even when it hurts, it is better than feeling nothing. Which is what I have felt for a very long time. I would rather feel joy, and it not hurt.

                            --
                            vj: I'm a little hesitant about how to respond to this....? It feels like you are making up "rules," and that feels a little heavyhanded over here. :-/

                            w: Just trying to understand the rules that already exist naturally. I don't have to make them up. They are there. Just want to interpret them.

                            vj: Right. I suppose I'm complaining that you charge up a Ladder of Assumption quickly based on very little provocation. (How very iNtuiting of you! :-P)

                            --
                            vj: I guess I'm pondering how INTJ interfaces with ENFP or ESFP, and you're wanting to elope to Hawaii together. I'm puzzling about how the chemicals combine, and you're making travel arrangements. (This might be an introverted Thinking vs. extraverted Thinking difference. ;-D)

                            w: ROFL-- Yeah, if I had any guarantee she would go, they would already be booked. Actually, funny you should put it that way. My boss and I have this problem all the time. He is INTP, and his first process is introverted thinking. He is already putting things together in a logical sense in linear motion, and I my thoughts start at how the end should look and work backwards. But it takes me much longer to get a ball rolling on my plan than it does for him. He hates it, because he usually has several starts and stops, having to back track. I usually have one plan and work all the way through it the first time.

                            vj: But not always I bet. (And those are the days he lives for.)

                            vj: After we get you through this crisis, maybe we can have fun comparing INTP with your pattern.

                            **w: Your on. I do test more closely to P these days than i used to. I have a whole story about why, and the implications and changes that have taken place in my life. I still believe I am on the J side, though.

                            vj: I suspect it is your extraverted Sensing anima that is waxing lyrical about her hair, her voice, her tattoo... it is probably a rarely-seen irrational side that you are displaying. And you are quite animated! You are expending a lot of energy on this, ah, project. AND you are very aware of your "inferior" abilities here. You are highly self-conscious of your ignorance about attracting, seducing... You would give *anything* right now to be Orlando Bloom or [your_movie_star_hunk_here]. You'd like to "spill the wine, get that girl," and yet you can't seem to button your shirt right and are tripping over your own feet when you "casually" drop by to see her. It's as if you're 14 years old again, only now you know that wearing "eau de cologne" isn't adequate to hold her interest. You wish you were better looking, sexier, had more money and a better car to impress her with. A great pad wouldn't hurt either.

                            w: ROFL- You are sooo funnnnyyy!!! And true. Except I have most of those things, and still feel inadequate against her social graces and sweet smile, and soft voice. My GOD! She is young, has no formal education past highschool, and works in a store! And she seems LIGHTYEARS ahead of me!! How do I impress her!!??!! Tell me, please!!

                            vj: I imagine you already have impressed her -- or not! ;-D

                            **w: After last night, I think not. I am eating my heart out, I am soooo jealous!!!

                            vj: That's an extraverted Sensing anima.

                            vj: Here's one by the author who wrote the other one, but I dunno how good it is:
                            www.amazon.com/Man-Power-...767-8082509

                            w: Thanks!

                            vj: Yer welcome! Please share a review in return if you read it?

                            **w: ok. Let me get my reading assignment done, first.

                            vj: Kevin Hogan has written a few based on NLP as well, like this:
                            www.amazon.com/Irresistib...767-8082509

                            w: Thanks!

                            Vj: Yer welcome! Please share a review in return if you read it? (I don't want to recommend it to others unless you think it has value.)

                            What I have found is that INTJs seem to do well with NLP techniques -- it's a rational system for dealing with human interfaces. In combination with type, it can provide a pretty useful framework to better cope with those human "things."

                            vj: Truthfully, though... chances are, regardless of whether the object of your affections prefers ENFP or ESFP, she probably already is completely clued-in to what's up with you, and you're about five miles behind. (Sorry to break it to you like this.)

                            w: Uh-oh. What do I do, now, then!?

                            vj: See below.

                            vj: Um, enjoy yourself? I suspect control is entirely out of your hands at this point.

                            w: Ok. I will.

                            vj: LOL. Keep us posted?

                            **w: Ok. I will.

                            **LATEST UPDATE** Fri nite was... well... curious. She asks me out to a bar and grill, w/her friend that works with her. She says she will call me later and let me know when. So, around 8:30pm, when I had given up and was getting in the shower, she calls, and tells me where the place is. So I get there about 9:20pm, walk in, and the bar is full, but they are not there. So I have a beer while I wait. Then, about 9:40pm, she and another friend show up, and Aphrodite looked GOOD. REALLY good. I didn't know it, but her friend she works with that helped set this up was in the other room waiting on all of us at a table with her daughter. The dynamics were interesting. I think her friend she works with was tired and a little perturbed that she was sooo late. But it was VERY subtle, so i couldn't be sure of the underlying tones. So, we are there for about 10 minutes, Aphrodite and her friend that showed up with her are making plans to go to some club/concert, and she asks me if I want to go, just before her friend looks at her, and then Aphrodite looks at me and says, "Not your scene" and I think, "huh?" I think her friend that works with her was a little agrivated about this, but I don't know. Maybe it was just me. So we all leave after 10 more minutes, and I go home and go to bed. Just after I eat my heart out. But it is ok, because I still had some left for breakfast. But without milk. :o(

                            So, Sunday, I walk in the store (I stop to buy gasoline), and while she is waiting on me at the counter, she asks what movie i would like to see. And I think, "huh?" So I said, "huh?" And she says she would like to go to a movie with me, I needed to pick which movie I wanted to see. So I asked for her number, and told her I would have to think about it, that I didn't know what was playing.

                            So, now, we are going to the movies sometime this week to watch Pirates III-- she wants to dress up in her pirate gear (which I am both amused at and think it is kind of cute). I don't know if this is a group thing, or just us.

                            I think I might have been manipulated!?! (I think I might also be angry, but i cannot tell yet. i want to see where all of this is going)

                            Now we are txt msging each other. Just chit chat.

                            vj: Curiously, I think I am being more objective than you right now. (My experience of you through this dialogue is that you're sounding very SUBjective.)

                            w: ROFL-- VJ... It is because I DO NOT KNOW what the hell I am doing!!!! She might be the most important girl in my life, and if I miss my opportunity, I won't have her. How will I know? Up until now, I haven't even been able to get a conversation with her longer than a few sentences at a time. She is the "Red Haired Girl" in Charlie Brown!

                            vj: Oh dear. I have the crappiest thing to tell you then. Beebe says that DomNi types are NOTORIOUS for Missing Opportunities. :-(

                            vj: :-(

                            **w: I know. I look back over my life, and realize I have missed soooooo maannyyyy opportunities. I still miss them. :o(

                            vj: Slipping on my coach hat, what more can you do to forward the action on this particular opportunity? Is your conscience nagging you that there's an action you're avoiding? Like..... -- Asking Her Out? Or, is your iNtuition telling you to "be cool, lay low, don't push"?

                            vj: What's that "inner voice" whispering to you?

                            **w: ??? "... build it, and they will come...?" Sorry, wrong voice... let's try again shall we?

                            "... Luke, Luke, you must go to the Degaba System, and there you will find .... "

                            Sorry, wrong one, still.

                            vj: I trust that voice -- the wise voice. (Not the fearful, ego-driven voice. YOU know the one I mean.)

                            **w: Oh, yeah. That one!! Ok. Great, you've given me my Ni license!

                            Hmmm... My voice tells me:

                            Ne "Her feelings toward me haven't really developed yet, because she doesn't really know me. There is a distance she keeps herself from me. She is distrustful, but no decision has been made." Ne

                            Ti "If I keep stripping away her defenses, gently, one layer at a time, she's mine." Ti

                            Ni "She is either in a relationship that is bad or is going nowhere." Ni (<-- that could be the ego one, not sure)

                            Ne/Si "She still lives with her parents, and works a job that is her first job. She appears to spend all of her money on having fun." Ne/Si

                            Ni "This cannot be good. If we end up together, doesn't that make it 'our money' she is spending. And if her earning potential is low, doesn't that mean I am earning most of 'our money'. Am i really willng to take that on?" Ni

                            Ni/Fe "I wonder if she is mentally/emotionally developed out far enough in other areas that are not yet apparent to me so that I will not *damage* her growth" Ni/Fe

                            Ni "Then again, isn't that part of living life?" Ni

                            Ni/Fe "How will letting someone in my life who may not be fully mature emotionally/mentally weigh on other aspects and people in my life? How will it affect her? How will it affect me?" Ni/Fe

                            Ni "What if I get her. Then worry about the other problems later. We can work through them. All relationships have problems that must be worked through" Ni

                            Ti "What, are you CRAZY??? She has no money, no work experience, very little "life" experience, what the hell are you thinking?" Ti

                            Te "Fine, we do it this way. I'm quitting my job anyway, and going back to school to work on my Ph.D. next year. She just goes with me, gets a 4 year degree while we are there. Now, she is in a position for higher earning potential and has fully emotionally/mentally developed through a college experience. In the mean time it gives us a chance to grow together and have a wonderful life." Te

                            Fi "Man, you're not even emotionally mature yet, are you?" Fi

                            Ni "GREAT!! It means WE fit well together. We can GROW in a relationship as we should!!" Ni

                            Fe "Yeah, and what does her family say, bonehead?" Fe

                            Ni "Man, we are just SPECULATING, now. Damn, let us get a fix on the possibilities first, THEN if she is interested we can address those problems after we know the real situation!!" Ni

                            Se "Is she interested? i.e., is she on board with this?" Se

                            Ne "Not yet... but if we play our cards right, and YOU don't screw it up, she might be..." Ne

                            Se "Yeah, but you can't start specualting outside the bounds of the REAL situation, you have to start in-bounds!" Se

                            Ni "Shut up!!!" Ni

                            Se "No!" Se

                            Ni "Yes!!!" Ni

                            Se *blink* Se

                            Se "no." Se

                            Ti "Fine. I need to know how to ACT and BEHAVE if she is interested. Besides, if I don't try, how else can I GET her interested?" Ti

                            Se "Man, you got so many other hurdles to get out of the way first!" Se

                            Ni "Fine, ya'll go work on those... I'm going over here to work on the possibilities of getting HER. That's teamwork." Ni

                            Se "Your not the boss!!" Se

                            Ni "Neither are you!" Ni

                            Ni " N = iNtelligent, S = Stupid!!" Ni

                            Se "You are sooooo mature!!" Se

                            Ne/Se "Look, she has asked us to the movies. Let's just go and see what happens." Ne/Se

                            everyone else "Ok."

                            Ni "Just don't fu***k it up for us, Se!!!" Ni

                            vj: Man, don't MAKE me do a commercial for my self-discovery work! (I have an excellent track record though. ;-D)

                            w: Actually, after I read this comment above, I went and did a little more homework on you. I did not know you were as active in your field as you apparently are. I have been to your Type Insights website before. I did not know who you were before now. But I am glad we have become friends, as well as you can be online, I guess. ;o)

                            vj: I'm curious now. Why did you visit previously? What brought you there? (I'm still trying to get my bearings online, and figure out how to develop my practice.)

                            **w: I think I visited because google brought you up on page two or something. I don't remember what I was looking for specifically. Maybe more in depth stuff on MBTI and Keirsey temprament. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, because I was at work at the time. It was on my lunch break and I was collecting information for books to read, etc. I would be interested in helping you develop your practice. Let me know what I can do to help. Check your Msg box on your Tribe account. If you don't think I have quite lost all of my marbles yet.

                            vj: Okay, here's the deal: the One Thing we know BOTH the ESFP and ENFP have in common is this:

                            vj: Both these patterns share a "Get-Things-Going" interaction style. They like to *involve* and *be involved*.
                            www.InteractionStyles.com They tend to be optimistic and fun to be around.

                            vj: Both of them ALSO meet the world with their extraverted Perceiving preference (the "ADD" muscle), and "having fun" is pretty important.

                            vj: There's probably lots more to say on those two points, but I confess it's late and I'm tiring. I'll see if I think of more tomorrow.

                            w: Thanks for the suggestions!!! Now I have to turn into FUN GUY! Actually, I think I can pull it off rather easily.

                            vj: Uhhhhh.... Where did it say you were supposed to become the FUN GUY??

                            vj: It seems to me from over here that a better job for you is to APPRECIATE her being the FUN GIRL. To value and admire that. Honor and appreciate it.

                            **w: *blink* Oh.

                            vj: Look, if I'm a good singer, do I want somebody else to come onstage and start singing? Or do I want somebody to applaud and tell me what a great singer I am, and how nobody else has ever sung like me before, and it brought tears to your eyes?

                            **w: ...uuhhmmmmm.... I choose (b) applaud and tell you what a great singer you are. I will leave off the crying part, it might not be the best aphrodesiac in my case.

                            vj: In similar fashion, what are you brilliant at? What do you want people to admire in you?

                            **w: We will have to have a real conversation on that one! ;o) It might suprise you. In short, though, I want people to think of me as smart, innovative, and of great Character. Even having overcome great adversity. But also, as a great human being, who can be a really great friend.

                            vj: In a nutshell, it's common for people to marry their admirers.

                            vj: Is that 'nuff said??

                            **w: Yes, this is good advice.

                            --
                            w: VJ ...*solomnly*... I like a LOT of innuendo. But I like a variety, too. Sex can serve as a release, and should be straight forward in such situations. It can also be a VERY intimate way of expressing Love, and these times should be approached with sacred care of the other persons expectations, as well as your own for these special times. And there are Many shades of grey in between.

                            vj: Are you sure you have INTJ prefs? Have you ever tried on INFJ? ;-P

                            w: I am sure I am INTJ. I can say that I have learned through a lot of trial and error what works romantically. I have grown much myself in this area. I like thinking about it.

                            vj: I have some great self-discovery programs that reeeeally crack open insights about type in a highly structured format. People come away with a profound sense of who they are and what they bring to the world more than anything they've previously experienced. (Yes, that's a commercial.)

                            vj: Seriously... I love this work, because I've seen people TRANSFORM through working with me. To receive full permission to be who they are, and honor their values, and take a stand -- what could be better?

                            **w: I KNOW you love this work. I have been SEEING that in you. You make ME love your work. And you for it. Might quit my job and join ya if I didn't already have something else planned out. Let me know if I can help you in any way. Check your tribe MSG box.

                            w: Thanks!

                            vj: You are welcome! I'm glad you've enjoyed the exploration, and I hope you've gotten some valuable insights from it. (I hope we haven't bored everybody else on the board to tears!)

                            vj: It feels like the only *real* question on the table is this one: "How do I obtain my heart's desire?"

                            vj: Does any of the rest of it really matter?

                            w: Nothing else matters.

                            vj: That's what I thought.

                            vj: So.... what's the learning in this experience for you? (And it's okay if you don't wish to share it here.)

                            **w: ..mmmm.... I think I like you. You seem to be very intelligent, and very knowledgable in your field. Your dynamics with me are good. I think mine are good with you. So, it makes it fun. On this topic, you have been someone I could extravert to, and get intelligent insights back. I do not have ANY friends I can talk to about this stuff. I have few friends. Most of them are left over from my childhood and college, and live MILES away.

                            vj: You seem like a great guy, and I'd like to see you happy and satisfied in a rewarding relationship. I'm not sure whether my "type analysis" is contributing to that outcome or not -- only you can say.

                            w: Awww! You are very sweet! And I say, "YES !!!" :OD I do think as much, just having you here to talk makes me feel better about it. You give me much to think about. And in light of what you say in the next comment, I think you are right about being distracted from panic.

                            vj: It's nice to PRETEND we have some control, even when we don't. And I like how you seem to be consciously choosing how you want to "be with" this experience. It's very positive, enthusiastic, and admirable. I like how you're showing up around this! You show courage.

                            **w: Where i want to go with my life, I must loose all fear, or at least not be paralyzed by it from making the right choices. Otherwise I will fail. I could give you a speech on courage, but I won't. You have been around the block enough, I'm sure you know more about it than I do.

                            vj: Perhaps it's keeping you distracted from the panic of not knowing what else to do? So maybe it's effective as a stalling tactic until your Venus plays her cards.

                            vj: I say again, "enjoy yourself"!

                            w: I will! Thanks!

                            vj: You go, boy! Go GET that E_FP goddess! ;-P

                            **w: ROFL. Ok, I will.
                            • Hey VJ!!

                              Sorry I have not posted this week, yet. Much of my evenings have been spent preparing for volunteer and committee work that I volunteered for earlier in the year. I tried to repsond to your post below this one a few days ago because i thought it would be shorter, but it took me until now to finish it out. Now I reply to this one.

                              *** Hey Wyatt... Yeah, I got stuff going on too that's pulling on me. :-(

                              *** I hope I didn't rush through this too quickly, AND I hope we aren't boring everyone to tears! :-O

                              --
                              *w: I think I am struggling with containing Fi. There is so much I want to say to her, and probe with her, but cannot in mixed company. So, my Fi (clarifying values to achieve accord) is strugging with my Fe (deciding if something is apporpriate or acceptable to others). Fe is a shadow process for me, and I am experiencing it in a negative way, since my stimulation of it is as constraints barring me from making advancements toward accumulation of data so that I can form clarity of her feelings in relation to my own). Furthermore, i think this is happening because my Ni isn't enough to accumulate the data, my Te isn't succeeding in forcing it to accumulate, and so Fi is trying to support it against a backdrop of social settings in which I am not used to opporating. I feel I can get the data I need rather skillfully and *relatively* transparent in a one-on-one conversation with Aphrodite. Which never seems to be able to manifest itself.

                              *** Whew! That's impressive! A masterful analysis!

                              --
                              w: I promise you, what I descibe may be the five sense things, but it stems from the fact that she has MUCH more of a psycological effect on me. VJ, I have seen and dated better looking women. I do not know any other way to describe it. There is just something else there..... her way.... I simply cannot describe it. I have to get to know her better. Then I will be able to pinpoint it. I think. Something about her is elusive... someting there that I should be able to see clearly, but it is opaque, and I can't quite. I WANT her. There is an inoscence there, too. I do identifiy with that.

                              *** I'm wondering how much you recognize extraverted Sensing. Here's an anecdote:
                              I was in a relationship with an ESFP for a time. Truthfully, he was overweight and not terribly attractive. But he was verrrrrrry sexy. WOW. I remember one time he worked as an extra in a film -- he was supposed to sit at a bar and, on cue, get up and leave. Well, he got up to leave, reached in his pocket, took out a bill and *snapped* it before tossing it on the counter. It was so riveting you wanted to swoon. EVERYBODY noticed. So they ended up changing the scene around so that this "bill snap" became the "star" of the scene, LOL!

                              *** Extraverted Sensing is not JUST about being attractive -- it's also about having an impact.

                              *** Sometimes I think of it as the "show-off" function.

                              *** (There would be times this ESFP would turn around and say, "You're looking at my butt, aren't you?" And he knew we were!)

                              *** So don't limit Se to the five senses, or think it's entirely about looking attractive. It may instead be about getting looked AT. (Don't some people have a talent for that? Think of Cher, for example. "Look at me! Look at me!")

                              *w: I barely have a theoretical grasp of the terms without having to go back and look up each of the processes each time I talk about them. Couple this with the fact that I have NO field work experience, and therefore very little experience isolating which action corresponds to/from which process. But I am getting there.

                              *** "You can only be really conscious of things which you have experienced, so individuation must be understood as life. Only life integrates, only life and what we do in life brings out the individual. . . Real consciousness has to be based upon life experience, just talking about things is not enough." -C.G.Jung

                              *** This is an incredibly rich topic of study that can sustain one for *years*.

                              This is further compounded by the fact that I STILL don't know her very well.

                              *** And oh yeah, there's *that*. ;-P

                              --

                              *w: Hop out the window and come down!!! Or I could come up, we could talk, see each others shadows, sew them back on, then you could come down, and we could go after Aphrodite's shadows!! (and then her Heart!) Tinkerbell is *qualified* to help us! (*I think she has experience*)

                              *** ROFL!!

                              --
                              *w: Aren't all the processes broad sweeping generalizations by themselves? We use them anyway in parallel and tandem to siphon out personality characteristics against the relief of what's left. It's just an analysis tool, only as effective as the theory it is built on, the methods we have of detecting it, and the experience and skill we have in evaluating the results.

                              *** Is this a serious question? Because I'm not sure how to respond. I do know that typology is a serious method of analysis, not a game of "Pin the tail on the donkey." It requires training oneself to use a new framework and getting sophisticated at employing accurate filters.

                              *** It is not a trait theory, which is what many people try to reduce it to. When people assume "S" means "stupid" and "N" means "iNtelligent," they are attempting to reduce type to traits. You might as well say INFJs are beautiful and INTJs are ugly while we're at it. ;-P

                              *** (This is the reason many people run screaming the other direction from type.)

                              --
                              w:Also, ESFP's usually are not patient with long theoretical explanations, right? Prefering instead a practical explanation, or to make simple but broad sweeping statements?

                              vj: Y'mean, are they stupid??

                              *w: Absolutely not. I mean that instead, aren't they are usually uninterested in the theory, preferring instead the practicalities of a situation? The girl i have been with for the last 10 years, let's call her Athena, is an ESTP, and she is extremely smart. Smarter than me. But her talents and preferences are in-the-moment analysis and problem solving. (she is also VERY good at sizing up people within a few minutes of meeting them, where it takes me a few months to come to the same conclusions-- but her judgement on people is limited only to situational motivation-- which makes her good in business-- while my judgement is usually more accurate about the HUMANITY of a person; i.e., that good people can do very bad things, while bad people can also do very good things, what each should be help accountable for, and wheather they really intended to perform a good or bad action or not, and what the long term impact on the victim/beneficier will be.

                              *** I understand what you are saying, and certainly some of that is there. But I want to be cautious about how it gets expressed. In the case you are citing above, it is clear to me that Athena has "Interest in Motive," which is part of the Improviser temperament pattern. You are likely to notice the contrast due to your contrasting "Interest in Structure," which is part of the Theorist Temperament pattern. (Switching models here!)

                              vj: Y'mean they want you to cut to the chase, get to the point?

                              *w: Something like that.

                              *** An ESFP has a very different interaction style pattern from an ESTP. They have the "Get-Things-Going" style, which features both Informing communication (opposite of Athena's) and the pace will be a tad slower, meant to involve you. It is the same style as ENFP, which is yet another reason why the two are easy to confuse.

                              *** Temperament is probably the best way to figure out someone's pattern quickly.

                              vj: One of the most brilliant people I've ever known had ESFP preferences, and he introduced me to a number of theories I was previously unaware of. I found his company enthralling.

                              *w: Are you sure his preferences were ESFP? How do you know? (<-- taken directly from the "Book of Tactics" by Vicky Jo)

                              *** LOL!

                              *** Well, he went through the same MBTI qualifying program as me. He entered the program believing he had ENFP preferences, and the instructors sidled up to him and invited him to investigate ESFP because ENFP didn't quite seem to fit. He agreed with their assessment after reading through the different temperament descriptions, and he now works for the Government doing team-building using the type models he learned. Is that compelling enough?

                              *** We were all very clear that he wasn't a "stereotypical" ESFP -- but then again, it seems few people ARE.

                              And, also, a person's preferences doesn't mean that they are unable to address or invent theory or not, or that they are smart or not. It is simply a preference. That is, when everything is at "rest", where do they tend back to? Let me know what you think of these set of statements:

                              Some people seem not to fit so "neatly" into the squares.

                              *** If you think of them as "squares," you're in trouble to begin with.

                              These are hybrids, which may carry characteristics of more than one "type". I think these are not rare, but not the norm, either.

                              *** We are all of us unique. But somewhere between the continuum that ends where all of us are the "same," and the other end, where all of us are "different," we can insert some models that describe our similarities and differences through a helpful framework. Type is that framework.

                              But, I am not an expert. I have read that more often than not, people do have one preference a little stronger than another, and that will define their behavioral characteristics.

                              *** YOu cannot measure the "strength" of a preference. Are you more DomNi than me? Prove it. (Because you cannot.)

                              *** Type is NOT about strength of a process -- it is only ever about whether or not something is habitual, a preference.

                              I don't know how true it is. And, the way the E/I S/N T/F J/P worlds are defined, you are really either one or the other, right? I mean if we define the line between the two extremes to be in a particular place, then you are either on one side or the other, right? It is these lines that divides us into the "boxes".

                              *** You have just identified the Te construction of the MBTI.

                              *** The MBTI is an instrument that is intended to help you discover your preferences without having to learn everything about the model. Unfortunately, anybody who spends more than two days on the idea of type starts to question the "truth" of the assessment, because they quickly realize they can live in all EIGHT of the boxes. They forget it was only ever about preferences, and try to make type do "tricks." (Usually they reduce it to stupid stereotypes.)

                              Now, the preference profiles are defined over 16 types for MBTI (4 behavioral temperaments for the "Keirsey way"), and at the end of the day, only YOU can decide how YOU best fit.

                              *** 16 Keirsey types as well. (4 Temperaments combined with 4 Interaction Styles patterns combine to 16 types that coincide with the 16 MBTI preference types.)

                              So maybe there is some overlap, or give and take on YOUR EXACT type/profile, but having the type/profile construct there to show our characteristics as a relief against "other types" is certainly better than NOT having it, right? So, I place [Person x] into a box, because I choose to, and you, myself, and everyone else, with the caveat that it may not be 100% accurate. BUT, it is a BEGINNING place for me to understand the person. And sometimes, that is all I need. Sometimes, not.

                              *** I'm not about putting people in boxes; however I am VERY interested in identifying people's *patterns*. I use that as my starting point instead. ;-)

                              What this construct does not address is that there is different "maturity" levels and "talent" levels in people. Think of it like this. Imagine ALL of the MBTI types arranged in the 4x4 matrix you commonly see them in. Now, pick up this 2-dimensional piece of paper, and wrap it around so that the left side touches the right side, forming a cylinder, and then "roll" the top and bottom toward the inside until they touch, forming a "donut". Now, this "3-Dimensional" construct does a couple of things: (a) we have all types touching the next type by one letter change, and (b) depth is represented by going down into the donut. We can let the depth represent a product of (i) talent AND (ii) maturity. For instance, what we mean by talent is analogous to a football player. One can have MUCH more natural talant than others in a given area. Even if your preferences are one way over the other (and there is belief that your dominant preferences are guided by your natural talents, which feeds back into steering your preferences, and on and on), you can be near the top or bottom of the spectrum on these talents against other people even though they may be YOUR most preferred (and usually that means your most natual talents, as well). In the case of a football player, the most talented ones, if their talant is practiced and developed, go on to play professional ball. They are the best at their skill. If they are not talented, they do not progress. If the are talented, but not developed, they do not progress. If they are mediocre in one, they can componsate some with the other and progress some. If they are excellant in both, then they are at the top of their game. So, this is how I imagine it.

                              *** I can see what you are doing, and it makes some sense I guess.

                              *** Since I don't treat the codes as "boxes" but as patterns, it seems more dynamic for me. I'm not trying to hang letters on people (pin the tail on the donkey) -- I am trying to identify what consciousnesses are activated for them in a given situation (as Jung wanted us to). (Forms of consciousness are not about "traits," although some kinds of traits *may* predictably manifest from certain forms of consciousness.)

                              *** And I do the whole thing differently. ;-D

                              *** Temperament and Interaction Styles are *behavioral models." They are about "patterns." So when I use these filters, there are three dimensions I am running through my head and trying to fit around. They are dynamic, not static.

                              *** Since these are models of "patterns," someone is either a "dress pattern" or a "pants pattern." There's no such thing as a dress/pants pattern (that would be a mess!). Now, some dress patterns are bigger than others; some are smaller. But it either is a dress or a pair of pants -- never both. A pattern is a pattern is a pattern, regardless of size. (Thus it can dynamically "scale.") Some people are evening dresses, some people are frocks, some people are Scarlett O'Hara ballgowns. Nevertheless, these are all derivatives of the "dress" pattern.

                              *** Naturally all of the temperaments and interaction styles have certain elements in common, so I am always trying to sort those dichotomies on the fly, preferably based on multiple contexts.

                              *** In contrast, type is a model of PREFERENCES. This is an entirely different model, not just the same model stretched another way. And it is *HARD* to use type to figure out anyone's type. In fact, Jung didn't want you to! He writes, "My typology is far rather a critical apparatus serving to sort out and organize the welter of empirical material, but not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is . . . a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical."

                              *** Jung wanted us to get sophisticated at noticing what functions or "forms of consciousness" were being activated at any given moment. And THAT is not an easy thing to do (as you discovered below!).

                              *** Now the MBTI is something else again. Isabel Briggs-Myers, in her wisdom, broke Jung's theory down into four dichotomies in order to construct the instrument. It's a pretty clever approach! However, it doesn't hold up so well under close scrutiny. It "ball-parks" people, and it *suggests* their pattern, but to treat its results as definitive is foolish. Even the psychometric evidence shows that it is accurate at best 70% of the time (according to its own manual).

                              *** Unfortunately, most people think the MBTI *is* type. :-(

                              *** Sigh.


                              And at the end of the day, some people are just real jerks. I am not. Neither are you.

                              *** Usually people we consider jerks are manifesting characteristics we are uncomfortable with in ourselves. :-/

                              --
                              *w: I do not buy into stereotypes. But I do choose to use personality types, even with their caveats and flaws (on some level, isn't persoanlity type a type of sterotype? :oP).

                              *** See above. For me, Jung's psychological type is a map of our intrapsychic processes, so it cannot possibly be stereotype, just as each of us is individually unique -- unless you use the term "stereotype" to explore commonalities.

                              *** I confess I have a slight allergy to those who use type as stereotype. (Certainly that is not what Jung nor Isabel Briggs-Myers intended it for. They did not want us to trade in one set of stereotypes [i.e., "jerk"] for another [i.e., "sensors"].

                              It is not a perfected theory yet, and I am not skilled enough in this field to create the necessary perfections, so I will use what we have. I think you are attempting to perfect some of the analysis tools, and from what I have seen, I believe you have both the skill and dedication to do it! If I can help you, please let me know. You much fun to work with!

                              *** Many of us refer to the "art of type." I do not think it is an exact science, but is an art.

                              w: she seems to enjoy telling me about dreams she has had....

                              vj: I guess I'm wondering whether she relates the events or her interpretation. Is it about what happened, or about what it all means? (Although, is she driving that conversation or are you?)

                              *w: Yes. i see what you mean. After some reflection, I think the particular conversation we had was her telling me what happened, and "us" talking about what it meant. The conversation wasn't long enough for me to determine who was driving what, and it was a long time ago. Will have to follow up on this with her when I see an opportunity. I will try to be more concious of it next time.

                              *** "In order to be conscious of myself, I must be able to distinguish myself from others. Relationship can only take place where this distinction exists." -Jung

                              *w: ...hhhmmmmm. I see what you mean. I don't know, though. I am giving you a lot of innuendo, and I don't really know what of what I am relaying in this particular instance is accurate or not. My perceptions may be off, here, too.

                              *** "Whatever the circumstances of your life, the understanding of type can make your perceptions clearer, your judgments sounder, and your life closer to your heart's desire." -Isabel Briggs-Myers

                              w: She senses me.

                              vj: "Senses" you with her five senses? Like having an awareness of someone standing behind her? Kind of like those martial arts practices where you "sense" an attacker approaching from behind??

                              *w: No. Nothing like any of that. She "knows" what I want from her. Even though it has never been said. I think. She perries sometimes, she bates sometimes, but she never invites... until recently.

                              *** And is this not extraverted Sensing? It sounds rather like a cat playing with a grasshopper. ;-)

                              w: But I am at a loss to say in what way. I think I intimidate her sometimes(not in a bad way, but in a good way), kind of like she intimidates me.

                              vj: Hm, I wonder what that's about. Could it be an introvert/extravert difference? (WYSIWYG versus "still waters run deep"?) Could it be an extraverted Thinking auxiliary vs. extraverted Thinking tertiary? Could it be Theorist vs. Catalyst -or- Improviser?

                              There are so many flavors of intimidation to choose from.

                              Perhaps the only way to know is to ask. :-/

                              *w: Have you bumped your head!!??!! How do I do *that*?

                              *blink*

                              Actually, that is a good idea. How do I corner her into this kind of conversation? Since we had our first little *social* last night, I now have her phone number. I cannot help but believe this was intentional, since she has had my number months ago and never called (she probably threw it away). Now she has called. So I have her number in my mobile phone. And she knows it. Our visit was also very brief last night with one of her girlfriends, and another one of her colleague/friends (who helped set this up-- I didn't ask, her friend offered). Our "meeting" was an activity she crammed between two other activities that I think were a little more important to her. God, she looked good!!! But I don't think it was for me. Her and her friend were going to a concert, and I heard mention of other guys. :o( I am eating my heart out as I type (and TYPE). I wished she was dressing like that for ME!!! She did walk with me past my car, and give me a hug before we all left though. I think this is definitely "potential friend" status. So the question becomes, how to parlay that into "relationship" status. So maybe she is checking me out. I don't know. I need more data.

                              *** Maybe she needs more data too....?

                              w: Also, look at what you wrote, below!!! "Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: 'Wearing this might communicate…' "-- No, I am convinced more than ever this hair coloring thing is definitely part of her Intuition now... i specifically remember a conversation we had three months ago about the color of her hair that day and and the symbolizm behind it, and what it meant!

                              vj: Say more about that. (How much of the conversation came from you, and how much came from her?)

                              BTW, "Symbolism" seems to be more an Ni thing than an Ne thing, depending. (And did I mention that all Improvisers have introverted iNtuiting in their preference pattern?)

                              *w: *blink* Now that I reflect back on it, I think it came mostly from me. As I recall, she fed into it with some of her own insights, but I think i initiated it with a coule of comments.

                              vj:(I just remembered --- my HAIRDRESSER has ESFP preferences. ;-P)

                              w: Smart one! ;oP

                              vj: What does this goddess do for work again?? Or school?

                              *w: weeelllll... this is the first thing you have asked me that really makes me look at things the way they are (Si, that you complained about in the post below). Let's pick this apart. Since I we had a little *social* last night, and I am already detecting a little brown in the grass, I can start dismantling her pedistal.

                              *** I wonder if what you are REALLY attracted to is pedestals. (Robert Johnson to the rescue?)

                              (1) I think she is probably about 22. So not too age inappropriate, chrolologically. However, I think what does make her age inappropriate is the the fact that she still lives at home. Therefore, what kind of life experiences could she have possibly had? She hasn't had to get out and fight for anything, yet, namely her own survival, so how could she possbily value the failures and successes it takes to have something stable?

                              *** Good question. Can she?

                              (2) She is not in school, and from what I can see she doens't appear to have any ambition of going. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. She enjoys local popularity, and i think this means that unless she chooses to let go, and go after a college experience where one must "start over" and define themselves again, then her growth pattern is already locked in to those people already a part of her social structure, with little room for rapid, NEw influence or growth from knowing people like me or others. Not that it won't happen, just that it will take years for us to slowly filter in for her.

                              *** Interesting extrapolation, makes sense. (What you seem to be describing is her enjoying her extraverted Sensing "context" perhaps?)

                              (3) She works still works in her first job as a store clerk. (*what the HELL am I thinking?*) I did just learn this a couple of days ago.

                              *** I used to work in a clothing store with an ESFP. She was really good, and the owners loved her. Me, the shoplifters practically stole the store out from under me. :-(

                              (4) God she looks good, touches my heart, and I still want her. Although, maybe not as badly as yesterday. Until I see her again. Then I will want her as badly as yesterday.

                              *** Sounds like the Se anima is animated again! ;-P

                              vj: Let's look at definitions for Extraverted Sensing and Extraverted iNtuiting, because those are the two functions we're trying to choose between (as her preference):

                              Se
                              Extraverted Sensing: Experiencing the immediate context; taking action in the physical world; noticing changes and opportunities for action; accumulating experiences; scanning for visible reactions and relevant data; recognizing “what is.” Noticing what was available, trying on different items, and seeing how they look.

                              Ne
                              Extraverted iNtuiting: Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts. Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: “Wearing this might communicate…”

                              vj: So far I haven't heard much evidence of extraverted iNtuiting.

                              I do hear a lot of YOUR introverted iNtuiting being stimulated, and I confess it makes me wonder if you even SEE her clearly. (Do you follow me? In other words, maybe the iNtuiting that you're experiencing is YOURS -- highly stimulated -- not HERS.)

                              w: I hear you loud and clear. I have even wondered exactly this myself.

                              *** Great! Good noticing.

                              *w: Yeah.... about that. I am not sure if you realize yet that I am capable of Giant "N"ing all by myself.

                              *** Oh yeah. I noticed. At the expense of what??

                              *w: I do get a little high from it sometimes.

                              *** Beebe has said that Ni is sometimes "in danger of falling into the archetype."

                              *w: My house looks like hell. I just had my water shut off the other day because I hadn't paid my water bill in 6 months.

                              *** Forgot to do some introverted Sensing?

                              *w: This usually happens about twice a year. I am not lazy. I work all the time. I have money (I am not rich), and had plenty of money to pay my bill. But I looked up one day, and the water didn't work anymore. I don't know where my time went. I spend all of my time.... doing... other things... and it was hard work.

                              *** Were you my coaching client, I would invite you to log your time for a week and report to me a pie chart of what you logged. ;-D

                              *w: Lately, my time has been spent trying to get her, or try to figure out what my fixation is on her, so I can either get her, or get her off my plate and get someone else (preferably another ENFP (I want to "Super 'N'" together)-- or ESFP if it turn out you are right) so I can go back to being productive. I am on a time table. I have to get this worked out. I know you are going to say I might be a P, not a J, and I do believe I have many more P tendancies than I used to. But I am still a J. I am just at point in my life where I am absorbed in trying to "fix" a lot of things.

                              *** This sounds like a useful coaching conversation! First of all, as a technicality, you ARE a "P." Your favorite process is a perceiving process.

                              *** Second of all, you were born with a "problem." That happens to be a problem with Sensing. You will never "solve" this problem. So the question is how you want to "be" with it.

                              *** Third of all, what's going on with this "fixing"? Is that extraverted Thinking in operation? Whatcha fixin'??

                              *** I wonder whether you are being codependent with your extraverted Thinking? OR... I wonder whether you are being sucked into impossible problems that you fool yourself you can "fix." (My husband kept thinking he could "fix" his last marriage.)

                              *** Clearly this is a rich area of exploration, lots of "buzzing" seems to be here. What's it all "for the sake of?"

                              --

                              *w: She has already decided, and that is that we should be "friends".

                              *** HA. Finally, that sounds like Ni at work. It sounds like you have an "inner knowing" that a decision has been made. Excellent! (I've been looking for evidence of Ni.)

                              *w: So... before we weren't friends, and somehow, the path for "friends" was created. There must be a way to create the next opportunity for "romantic interest". But if she has already entertained the thought, and decided friends, then that is it. Right now. Unless she decided "friends" to have me around as an "option" for later, in which case we are still on. Right? So, let's just sweep the other annoying facts under the rug so that we can focus on the possibilities, with the caveat that we know they are under the rug. Besides, aren't there problems in all relationships? We can deal with those when we get to the relationship part. Did I just hear an echo?

                              *** Now, I don't know whether this is extraverted Thinking ("create the next opportunity") or extraverted iNtuiting (wishful thinking), or introverted Feeling ("I want her in spite of everything").

                              *** I want to lean into your Ni some more. What else does it "just know"? Is this relationship right for you?

                              *** Here's an exercise: imagine a dear friend calls you out of the blue and lays this very same problem at your feet and asks your advice. What advice would you give that friend? (Speak from your heart, share your deepest wisdom.)


                              Where the hell am I going with this, anyway? This is just crazy!! But if she eventually comes around, and says "yes" then doesn't that make it "our" craziness? What a fun relationship!!

                              *** Are you stretching to "get" something you perhaps shouldn't even have? I wonder... Perhaps it is about the conquest.

                              *** Another coaching question seems to be around relationship. What do you WANT from a relationship? (Another book idea -- I haven't read it but folks have recommended it -- "Marry Yourself First")

                              vj: Certainly it sounds like "wishful thinking" about wanting her to be "N" not "S" -- perhaps in spite of evidence to the contrary.

                              w: Mmmm. I think the evidence is there, but I am not doing a very good job of communicating it. I can describe the S part, because as you have pointed out, she has in fact become my Aphrodite (I like greek mythology... I will stick with the sexy-- and attainable-- goddess theme). I have already placed her on a pedestal and am describing her to you ... it is a little more difficult to present "evidence" of "N"ing. How do i present abstract evidence?

                              *** Look for this: Extraverted iNtuiting: Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts. Frequent brainstorming.

                              *** But I think that's too hard, myself. I'd seek out the Temperament pattern, myself. Is she a dress or a pair of pants? That's a surer compass.

                              vj: Uh, where are you located again? Maybe I need a vacation.

                              *w: Baltimore. Come on down, Princess.

                              *** See you in July. (The APTi conference is being held at the inner harbor this year.)

                              *w: So... if I understand you correctly, What we have established is that "N" is for iNtelligent and "S" is for Stupid. I got it.

                              LOL- (just kidding) I think we have driven this point in the ground. I believe you, I am with you, so let's quit stereo-typing and just put everyone into Type boxes instead (ROFL).

                              *** I don't want to get everybody into "type boxes" -- but I would like to identify the pattern accurately.

                              Seriously, I get it. And I very much respect the field.

                              *** I appreciate your respect. ;-)

                              w: My best friend growing up is an ESFP. I didn't see or speak to him since I was 12 years old, but when I was in Gulf Shores, Alabama a few years ago, stopped by his house, and we picked up like we never left off. It was an amazing experience. We still keep in touch every couple of months. I always liked being around him, particularly as a child, because he always knew all the cool places to be, how to act, and how to have fun. It was always much fun being around him. I confess, we would not be friends today if we met, becuase we are soooooo different. We simply do not not run around in the same circles. He is very successful as a self-employed contractor, although he has trouble managing his books. He also was in federal prison for 3 year several years ago. I guess he had some life experiences teach him a few things.

                              vj: And how did you learn his preferences?

                              *w: I tested him on one of our trips together. And I can see you *wincing* at me.

                              w: Also, Aphrodities friend who has set up the night out for the three of us soon, she is an ESFP. I have her for a relief to place Aphrodite against.

                              vj: And how did you learn her preferences?

                              *w: I tested her the same time that I tested Aphroditie. I didn't want it to look like I was targeting just Aphroditie. They both thought they were helping me debug my program. And I made sure that I debugged my program with their responses, but I didn't need to.

                              vj: The only thing you state (without backing it up with any solid evidence or anecdotes) is that you *think* she prefers "N."

                              w: I still think it.

                              vj: I get that you don't "think" it -- you "feel" it. (And that's why I have been expressing concern. If you could "think" it, you would probably have the logic and the articulation for it.)

                              w: I just know that I can prove it at this time. I think I need a night out with her to know. It is the only way we can have a meaningful conversation. Otherwise I cannot get that much insight into her.

                              vj: Now I'm hearing your need for Ni manifest. It craves more Se data to stimulate insights.

                              *w: So, this is how this works.

                              *** Yeppers. There are what we call "tandem processes." In the DomNi pattern, it seems that Se stimulates Ni. And... likewise, Ni eventually stimulates Se. It's our "conjunctio" -- our "spine of integrity." You can only *imagine* possessing this Aphrodite for so long before feeling you MUST make it real. Making it real fulfills your integrity.

                              --
                              *w: We went out on a little *social* last night-- just a couple of her girlfriends and myself for about 30 minutes. The jury is still out. I need a conversation with *HER*.

                              vj: Yes! Do not jump to conclusions! And I am pushing you to support your hypothesis about her type.

                              w: Still collecting data. Will share it with you as soon as I can.

                              *** I look forward to more data. ;-)

                              vj: Here are a couple of distinctions for you to collect data on.
                              Does she seem to have better skills at:
                              Diplomatic Synthesis OR Tactical Variation?
                              (Care to guess which is which pattern?)

                              *w: Before last night, I would have said Diplomatic Synthesis, but now I am not as sure. I still lean toward diplomatic synthesis, because Aphrodite set all of this up-- in between two other events she was attending. And it was all about having the correct people at each event-- I think so that certain people wouldn't feel uncomfortable. I think she is not as good on tactical variation, because the timing was WAY off for our event, so we were all late, and didn't have much time together, but I confess I don't think I have seen her have to "shift gears" or "respond" in that way. Plus, she did say one thing that made me not feel so comfortable, but I don't know that she even knew she was doing it. I think her friend, the one that helped set this up, and that tested out as an ESFP did pick this up, and seemed a little perturbed, but it was just one comment, and was all VERY subtle. Like, I might even be imagining it, but I don't think so.

                              I think diplomatic synthesis means something like "linking the interests of all parties into an acceptable, coherent, organized set of priorities", where I would guess tactical variation means something like, "changing ones approach to affect a desired outcome". Diplomatic Synthesis involves abstract planning, tactical variation requires a knowledge or intuition of different processes that may work to affect a given situation. Am I right? I also think diplomatic synthesis is an Ne function, where tactical variation is an Se function. Se is the dominant function for how ESFP views the world, where Ne is the dominant function for how ENFP views the world.

                              I still lean toward diplomatic synthesis.

                              *** I'm not feeling entirely comfortable with your definitions. For one thing, it seems that you are conflating some displomatic synthesis with Strategic Analysis.

                              *** Diplomatic synthesis:
                              Stepping into the world view of someone else and working to get all sides to truly understand each other. Building bridges between people. Having empathy. Unify by undersanding and resolving deeper issues. Communicate with symbols and metaphors that can be linked to the past, present, or future. Tend to clarify values, mission, and meaning. (Not very useful skill for a store clerk, btw.)

                              *** Tactical Variation:
                              Tactics involves knowing what action needs to be taken NOW to get to a future desired result. Good at reading the current sitution, then skillfully managing the situation in order to effect a desired result. Taking action according to the needs of the moment, and planning the next moves. Expedient. To cleverly display, compose, and perform with attention to impact and effect. (Reminds me of the cat with a grasshopper that I alluded to above.)

                              *** There's more. It's also in the green Temperament book by Dr. Berens.

                              --
                              w: I have read about the "NT/NF Death Spiral". Now that I know what it is, I can recognize it and avoid it.

                              vj: LOL!

                              Bring me *that* conversation when you're in a place to have it. ;-D

                              *w: Ok. But it may not happen with this one. It might be another one. I hope it is this one.

                              vj: The core values for all Catalysts are for meaning & significance, and having a unique identity.
                              vj: The core values for all Improvisers are for having the freedom to act--now, and an ability to make an impact.

                              *w: I still can't say on these two. I didn't see either preference manifest itself, except for the unique identity thing. She was going to a concert afterwards, and she was dressed up. She looked VERY nice.

                              *** "Displayed, composed, and performed with attention to impact and effect"??

                              vj: What I make up is that the two of you are stimulated around extraverted Sensing together. ;-)

                              w: I am still thinking on this one.

                              vj: I appreciate your diligence.

                              *w: Thank you. But, it may just be me stimulated around Se.

                              *** LOL. That sounds like some insightful self-honesty.

                              --
                              vj: Not sure what you mean? (Not sure it's important...)

                              w: In highschool, Kim was very intoxicating for me. She was an NF. It was the best relationship I ever had, but we were both very inexperienced with relationships. I think I got spoiled. I have not been able to find anything close to that feeling until now. The feelings are similar, but not the same.

                              vj: And how did you come to know Kim's type?

                              *w: weelllll..... I pulled out Kiersey and Bate's book, ran down the questions, and answered them for her based off of how I thought she would answer 12 years after we dated in highschool. The S/N thing was really the only one I thought was tough, so I read through those profiles until I was comfortable with which one I thought she was.

                              And I see you *wincing* again. You have a right too. Please don't be mad at me. I have no other way of know what type made me happy. Besides, we dated for 3 years.

                              *** I'm not mad, for pete's sake.

                              *** Honestly, you're doing it the way most people do -- probably MORE scrupulously! Thank heavens you've hung around long enough to realize it's all much more complex and sophisticated than it looks on the surface.

                              vj: I wondere whether perhaps if you lived with the "giant N" for a number of years you would begin to find it "too much," but that the intoxication in the beginning is very seductive. (Did we just come full circle?)

                              *w: I think I can "Giant N" by myself. I want to "Super N". I do see where you are coming from. You have the experience in that type of relationship. I do not.

                              *** So far I don't know that I'm hearing "Super N." I think I'm hearing "Super S." ;-P

                              --
                              vj: So let's play with *your* pattern. Are YOU better at
                              Diplomatic Synthesis OR Strategic Analysis ?
                              (because I gotta say your diplomatic skills are pretty sophisticated. I don't have ANY urge to suggest you suffer from Asperger's. :-P)

                              *w: Ok, let's play. Strategic Analysis. Everything is like a big chess board, and Diplomacy is just a tool as a means to an end for me. I completely suck at executing tactics, or even having a clue what tactics there are that gets me the results I want, although I have gotten a little better.

                              *** I'm starting to see the INTJ "grid" start to light up. Definitely pants -- Levi's jeans or Dockers maybe. ;-)

                              I am curious, though. Why do you say my diplomatic skills are sophisticated? I never thought they were, really.

                              *** Technically, I should have said your social skills were evolved. That's a different thing altogether, really. I misspoke myself.

                              *** What I was truthfully noticing is that you seemed to be very considerate about my feelings. So I was wondering if you were a mis-typed INFJ -- of which I have met MANY. So I was checking out that possibility.

                              *** (I'm pretty convinced.)

                              It is only after being in the corporate world for a number of years that I have had to recognize and use diplomacy regularly. And usually, I am seething mad when I have too, because I feel like I am getting screwed!!

                              *** My guess is that there is some confusion and conflation around these terms that could be sorted out. Your diplomatic skills are probably stronger than you realize, but you don't define them according to the model yet. Technically, you are probably being "screwed" over SF. You miss details with your lack of Sensing skills. You miss feeling transactions with your lack of extraverted Feeling skills. (I doubt anyone ever gets the drop on your Thinking or iNtuiting.)

                              Also, I have had a lot of hurt in my life, so I try to be cognizant of other's feelings when I can. Particularly when money is involved. Especially MY money.

                              *** I think we could delve into this further to gain more clarity. What I know is that Jung said whenever we suffer "affect" (emotions), it is because of being "unadapted." So you get to look at those experiences as development opportunities!

                              Also, the Southern thing. I grew up experiencing it. Flattery gets you everywhere when you are young. And, as I have discovered, it feels good when you are older. Also, when it is sincere, it is the best. So I keep it as a comfort, a tool, and a weapon. Also, we grew up in a fundamental church going family, where what was "just" was encouraged, even if it meant going to someone you have wronged and apologizing. We kept disputes out of courts. As i got older, I realized that if you wanted justice, you'd better try to create it yourself, or between you an the person who had wronged you (or you them). A court only renders a decision. It may not be just. Justice is respected. So diplomacy must include some semblance of justice (for all).

                              *** Suffice it to say that Beebe has stated that I_TJs have a "hidden gentlemanliness" that he attributes to Tertiary introverted Feeling. And I bet if I scratched a bit, I could find evidence of "trickster" extraverted Feeling. Probably "flattery" is challenging in this respect. It may seem deceptive to use or receive.

                              Finally, the only bit of ethics I learned in school sums up my philosophy on it.

                              "It is OK to treat someone as a means-to-an-end, SO LONG AS you ALSO treat them as an end-in-themselves."

                              I think Kant or someone wrote it.

                              *** I'm liking that. It seems to be a diplomatic perspective.

                              *** I'm betting this little principle also saves you a heap of aggravation around using Fe in a tactical way.

                              --
                              w: I like the thought of experiencing a freedom from rationality (but only temperarily), and going with the flow.

                              *** I hear this from a lot of Theorists. They are soooo rational all the time that they LONG for those times when they can lose control. And since everyone is attracted to others for what they lack in themselves, they are often attracted to completely irrational people. (How else can we explain Bill & Hilary?)

                              *** I prescribe a slate of wild parties, and perhaps a regular diet of rollercoasters at amusement parks. Paintballing might be good too, as long as you make a point of doing something stupid frequently.

                              *** ;-D

                              *** If I were your coach, I would make that your homework. Make a list of 25 irrational, go-with-the-flow activities you could do, and start scheduling them. (no kidding)

                              vj: Darlin', I feel for you. I really do. (I'm also a little bit jealous. I remember what it used to feel like to want someone That Much. It makes you feel really alive, doesn't it? ;-D)

                              *w: Yes, it does make me feel alive. Even when it hurts, it is better than feeling nothing. Which is what I have felt for a very long time. I would rather feel joy, and it not hurt.

                              *** So I wonder if this whole experience is intended to teach you the value of FEELING. Hmmm....?

                              --
                              vj: After we get you through this crisis, maybe we can have fun comparing INTP with your pattern.

                              *w: Your on. I do test more closely to P these days than i used to. I have a whole story about why, and the implications and changes that have taken place in my life. I still believe I am on the J side, though.

                              *** See above. We are ALL OF US both J & P, as a technicality. All the letter means In The Code is which one you prefer to show the outer world.

                              *** In a nutshell, do you prefer things to be decided or left undecided? That's about the only way to accurately define whether a J or P belongs in your code. (Note careful choice of language!)

                              vj: I imagine you already have impressed her -- or not! ;-D

                              *w: After last night, I think not. I am eating my heart out, I am soooo jealous!!!

                              vj: LOL. Keep us posted?

                              *w: Ok. I will.

                              *LATEST UPDATE** Fri nite was... well... curious. She asks me out to a bar and grill, w/her friend that works with her. She says she will call me later and let me know when. So, around 8:30pm, when I had given up and was getting in the shower, she calls, and tells me where the place is. So I get there about 9:20pm, walk in, and the bar is full, but they are not there. So I have a beer while I wait. Then, about 9:40pm, she and another friend show up, and Aphrodite looked GOOD. REALLY good. I didn't know it, but her friend she works with that helped set this up was in the other room waiting on all of us at a table with her daughter. The dynamics were interesting. I think her friend she works with was tired and a little perturbed that she was sooo late. But it was VERY subtle, so i couldn't be sure of the underlying tones. So, we are there for about 10 minutes, Aphrodite and her friend that showed up with her are making plans to go to some club/concert, and she asks me if I want to go, just before her friend looks at her, and then Aphrodite looks at me and says, "Not your scene" and I think, "huh?" I think her friend that works with her was a little agrivated about this, but I don't know. Maybe it was just me. So we all leave after 10 more minutes, and I go home and go to bed. Just after I eat my heart out. But it is ok, because I still had some left for breakfast. But without milk. :o(

                              So, Sunday, I walk in the store (I stop to buy gasoline), and while she is waiting on me at the counter, she asks what movie i would like to see. And I think, "huh?" So I said, "huh?" And she says she would like to go to a movie with me, I needed to pick which movie I wanted to see. So I asked for her number, and told her I would have to think about it, that I didn't know what was playing.

                              So, now, we are going to the movies sometime this week to watch Pirates III-- she wants to dress up in her pirate gear (which I am both amused at and think it is kind of cute). I don't know if this is a group thing, or just us.

                              I think I might have been manipulated!?! (I think I might also be angry, but i cannot tell yet. i want to see where all of this is going)

                              Now we are txt msging each other. Just chit chat.

                              *** I wonder whether you are still remembering to breathe? ;-P

                              vj: Oh dear. I have the crappiest thing to tell you then. Beebe says that DomNi types are NOTORIOUS for Missing Opportunities. :-(

                              vj: :-(

                              *w: I know. I look back over my life, and realize I have missed soooooo maannyyyy opportunities. I still miss them. :o(

                              *** Yeah, I have some of those too. Coulda been a millionaire, sigh.

                              vj: What's that "inner voice" whispering to you?

                              *w: ??? "... build it, and they will come...?" Sorry, wrong voice... let's try again shall we?

                              "... Luke, Luke, you must go to the Degaba System, and there you will find .... "

                              Sorry, wrong one, still.

                              vj: I trust that voice -- the wise voice. (Not the fearful, ego-driven voice. YOU know the one I mean.)

                              *w: Oh, yeah. That one!! Ok. Great, you've given me my Ni license!

                              *** LOL. You had that license LONG before I came around.

                              *w: Hmmm... My voice tells me:

                              Ne "Her feelings toward me haven't really developed yet, because she doesn't really know me. There is a distance she keeps herself from me. She is distrustful, but no decision has been made." Ne

                              *** It seems to me Ni would "just know" that "no decision has been made." The other part sounds more Ne, since it's about possibilities, possible outcomes.

                              Ti "If I keep stripping away her defenses, gently, one layer at a time, she's mine." Ti

                              *** Ti? Sounds more like Te perhaps. :-/

                              Ni "She is either in a relationship that is bad or is going nowhere." Ni (<-- that could be the ego one, not sure)

                              *** Sounds like more Ne (possibilities/wishful thinking).

                              Ne/Si "She still lives with her parents, and works a job that is her first job. She appears to spend all of her money on having fun." Ne/Si

                              *** Sounds like Si or Se. The Ne part would be, "and so that would mean _______ ."

                              Ni "This cannot be good. If we end up together, doesn't that make it 'our money' she is spending. And if her earning potential is low, doesn't that mean I am earning most of 'our money'. Am i really willng to take that on?" Ni

                              *** Fi. Values. (Good/bad) "Is that important to me?" Te="money is a measure of success" & cost/benefit analysis

                              Ni/Fe "I wonder if she is mentally/emotionally developed out far enough in other areas that are not yet apparent to me so that I will not *damage* her growth" Ni/Fe

                              *** Ne/Fi?? (Ne="I wonder" and Fi="do no harm"?? Could be Fe="considering others")

                              Ni "Then again, isn't that part of living life?" Ni

                              *** Ti underlying principle?

                              Ni/Fe "How will letting someone in my life who may not be fully mature emotionally/mentally weigh on other aspects and people in my life? How will it affect her? How will it affect me?" Ni/Fe

                              *** Primarily Ni -- trying on different frames, running scenarios.

                              Ni "What if I get her. Then worry about the other problems later. We can work through them. All relationships have problems that must be worked through" Ni

                              *** Ne. ("What if...") Si. ("All relationships have problems that must be worked through" -- based on "past" knowledge, or might be a Ti framework??)

                              Ti "What, are you CRAZY??? She has no money, no work experience, very little "life" experience, what the hell are you thinking?" Ti

                              *** Te and Fi? "Measuring" and "valuing"?

                              Te "Fine, we do it this way. I'm quitting my job anyway, and going back to school to work on my Ph.D. next year. She just goes with me, gets a 4 year degree while we are there. Now, she is in a position for higher earning potential and has fully emotionally/mentally developed through a college experience. In the mean time it gives us a chance to grow together and have a wonderful life." Te

                              *** Ni scenarios along with Te "segmenting/measuring." (I especially notice the Te "codependence" of arranging for her 4-yr degree without even knowing if she wants that. Just "fix" that annoying little problem.) A little Fi egocentricity does not go unobserved.

                              Fi "Man, you're not even emotionally mature yet, are you?" Fi

                              *** Fe calling you on the egocentricity.

                              Ni "GREAT!! It means WE fit well together. We can GROW in a relationship as we should!!" Ni

                              *** Te rationalizing? 2+2 = 4??

                              Fe "Yeah, and what does her family say, bonehead?" Fe

                              *** Fe or Fi, I'm not sure. Are you worried about her family's feelings, or about the impact of their feelings on YOU?

                              Ni "Man, we are just SPECULATING, now. Damn, let us get a fix on the possibilities first, THEN if she is interested we can address those problems after we know the real situation!!" Ni

                              *** Ne = "speculating." Knowing the "real situation" --?? Se? Si?

                              Se "Is she interested? i.e., is she on board with this?" Se

                              *** Fe? Considering others' feelings?

                              Ne "Not yet... but if we play our cards right, and YOU don't screw it up, she might be..." Ne

                              *** Fe / Ne / Si?

                              Se "Yeah, but you can't start specualting outside the bounds of the REAL situation, you have to start in-bounds!" Se

                              *** Si ?? (The "facts" of the situation?)

                              Ni "Shut up!!!" Ni

                              *** A demonic outburst? (Don't WANT to access that nasty Si.)

                              Se "No!" Se

                              *** Hm, not sure? Might be Si, Te, Se.

                              Ni "Yes!!!" Ni

                              *** Ni. Dominant process and ego trying to regain control.

                              Se *blink* Se

                              *** All the other processes stunned, deciding whether to cooperate.

                              Se "no." Se

                              *** Probably Se "mutiny." (It aspires to be the dominant.)

                              Ti "Fine. I need to know how to ACT and BEHAVE if she is interested. Besides, if I don't try, how else can I GET her interested?" Ti

                              *** Ne -- "IF" combined with Fe? (What does she need/want from me?) Might also be looking for a Ti "framework" to rely on or Te maneuver.

                              Se "Man, you got so many other hurdles to get out of the way first!" Se

                              *** Ni calling on Te to remove "hurdles"?

                              Ni "Fine, ya'll go work on those... I'm going over here to work on the possibilities of getting HER. That's teamwork." Ni

                              *** Ne? (possibilities)

                              Se "Your not the boss!!" Se

                              *** Fi understanding the "politics" of your psyche.

                              Ni "Neither are you!" Ni

                              *** A Te riposte.

                              Ni " N = iNtelligent, S = Stupid!!" Ni

                              *** Fe getting petty, namecalling.

                              Se "You are sooooo mature!!" Se

                              *** Fi getting petulant back

                              Ne/Se "Look, she has asked us to the movies. Let's just go and see what happens." Ne/Se

                              *** Se (experiencing and acting in the immediate context)

                              everyone else "Ok."

                              *** All conceding that this is probably the process most appropriate to the current situation.

                              Ni "Just don't fu***k it up for us, Se!!!" Ni

                              *** Ego's painful Si awareness of inferiority complex.

                              --

                              vj: I'm curious now. Why did you visit previously? What brought you there? (I'm still trying to get my bearings online, and figure out how to develop my practice.)

                              *w: I think I visited because google brought you up on page two or something. I don't remember what I was looking for specifically. Maybe more in depth stuff on MBTI and Keirsey temprament. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, because I was at work at the time. It was on my lunch break and I was collecting information for books to read, etc. I would be interested in helping you develop your practice. Let me know what I can do to help. Check your Msg box on your Tribe account. If you don't think I have quite lost all of my marbles yet.

                              *** As I often tell my husband, I KNOW you have lost all your marbles. Nevertheless, I will check. ;-)

                              vj: It seems to me from over here that a better job for you is to APPRECIATE her being the FUN GIRL. To value and admire that. Honor and appreciate it.

                              *w: *blink* Oh.

                              vj: Look, if I'm a good singer, do I want somebody else to come onstage and start singing? Or do I want somebody to applaud and tell me what a great singer I am, and how nobody else has ever sung like me before, and it brought tears to your eyes?

                              *w: ...uuhhmmmmm.... I choose (b) applaud and tell you what a great singer you are. I will leave off the crying part, it might not be the best aphrodesiac in my case.

                              *** LOL.

                              vj: In similar fashion, what are you brilliant at? What do you want people to admire in you?

                              *w: We will have to have a real conversation on that one! ;o) It might suprise you. In short, though, I want people to think of me as smart, innovative, and of great Character. Even having overcome great adversity. But also, as a great human being, who can be a really great friend.

                              *** So shall I admire that in you, or should I tell you that I'm all those things myself?? (Doesn't that have a dismissive tone to it? =8-O)

                              vj: In a nutshell, it's common for people to marry their admirers.

                              *w: Yes, this is good advice.

                              --

                              vj: Are you sure you have INTJ prefs? Have you ever tried on INFJ? ;-P

                              w: I am sure I am INTJ. I can say that I have learned through a lot of trial and error what works romantically. I have grown much myself in this area. I like thinking about it.

                              *** I wasn't too sure between dress and pants until now, but I'm feeling greater confidence with the pants. This last exchange has helped me see the INTJ "grid" lit up over there. I particularly gained a sense that you really KNEW how to wield Strategic intelligence, in comparison to seeming hesitant about diplomatic and tactical intelligences. Plus the evidence of "codependent Te." Those were very clear messages to me to pair with your semi-unconscious use of Ni.

                              vj: I have some great self-discovery programs that reeeeally crack open insights about type in a highly structured format. People come away with a profound sense of who they are and what they bring to the world more than anything they've previously experienced. (Yes, that's a commercial.)

                              vj: Seriously... I love this work, because I've seen people TRANSFORM through working with me. To receive full permission to be who they are, and honor their values, and take a stand -- what could be better?

                              *w: I KNOW you love this work. I have been SEEING that in you. You make ME love your work. And you for it. Might quit my job and join ya if I didn't already have something else planned out. Let me know if I can help you in any way. Check your tribe MSG box.

                              *** Going there next.

                              vj: So.... what's the learning in this experience for you? (And it's okay if you don't wish to share it here.)

                              *w: ..mmmm.... I think I like you. You seem to be very intelligent, and very knowledgable in your field. Your dynamics with me are good. I think mine are good with you. So, it makes it fun. On this topic, you have been someone I could extravert to, and get intelligent insights back. I do not have ANY friends I can talk to about this stuff. I have few friends. Most of them are left over from my childhood and college, and live MILES away.

                              *** Awwwww... Now I feel like I was fishing for compliments. I *am* gratified to hear this, thanks!

                              *** What I was meaning, however, was what is the learning in this Aphrodite experience so far?

                              *w: Where i want to go with my life, I must loose all fear, or at least not be paralyzed by it from making the right choices. Otherwise I will fail. I could give you a speech on courage, but I won't. You have been around the block enough, I'm sure you know more about it than I do.

                              *** A wise person taught me that it's not about whether or not you have fear or ever fail. It's about how fast you RECOVER from your stumbles that counts. Winston Churchill is quoted as saying, "Success is going from failure to failure quickly, with no loss of enthusiasm."

                              *** This is what appeals to me about coaching others. To support them in achieving their aspirations is nirvana!

                              vj: Perhaps it's keeping you distracted from the panic of not knowing what else to do? So maybe it's effective as a stalling tactic until your Venus plays her cards.

                              *** Status report??

                              -Vicky Jo
                              www.TypeInsights.com
          • Very interesting because I am 55% ENFP and 45% ESFP. I'm crazy ;) :P (just kidding)
            • Duh! I forgot to send you the link to this article about differences between SPs and "N's" -- written by Dr. Linda Berens (the type author I previously recommended to you).

              www.interstrength.com/article...mse.html

              Perhaps Tink will share her thoughts on the topic after she reads the article. I welcome her insights.

              -Vicky Jo ;-)
              www.TypeInsights.com
              • Hi VJ!!!

                Let me answer this one first. It is shorter!!!! (I think!?!)

                I did read through the article. I will offer your some first thoughts.

                God!!! I wish I was sitting directly in front of you so we could have a conversation!!! The flood of what I want to say cannot come out of my hands and into the page fast enough without me losing half my previous thoughts in order to salvage the next ones.

                And Damn!! I just lost three.

                BBLLAAAHHHHH!!!! Did you get all of that??? Make sense?

                Ok... let me slow down. Maybe if I get one coherenet thought out tonight, it is success.

                Me: I can see that lately, I am experiencing ALL of these. It does not happen simultaneously, but I am AWARE that I am BECOMING aware using all of these methods (even before I read the article, but I did not know all of these were attributes of the constructs you have pointed out in this way), where as before I began experiencing HER, I did not. Ni was DEFINITELY about the ONLY way I conciously became aware of things, situations, people, etc. I know you will argue that we all use all of these methods and that we have one preference that we use FIRST, but I will argue that I have not been CONCIOUS of the other methods before. Since I have been experiencing Aphrodite, I have been CONCIOUS of all of these methods in myself, and trying to come to grips with what it means for myself, my life, and what the possibilities are that i can come out of this and actually HAVE HER, also. Is it necessary that I have her, or is she just a catalyst for my own self awareness. I think i REALLY want her!

                Ni- Definitely me, 100%, no doubt. I can't tell if she experiences this.

                Ne- This is where it started with her for me. Like I said, she was not anything "extra" before. Then, about 6 months ago, it was a "glance". Maybe a slight hesitation, and the dynamics of our conversation was different depending on who was in the room. So, I took a chance, "happened" to see her alone in the store one night, and introduced myself, and "asked" if she would be interested in talking or having coffee. She said sure, then it got complicated real quick, I backed out, she backed out, we decided on another day, then it never happend. What triggered this was that I knew I was already kind of developing a "crush" on her, and my marriage was falling apart. I needed someone to talk to, and I did not want to be falling for someone else on a rebound, so I thought the best way to "undo" it was to do what i normally do in these kind of situations, which is to get to "know" the person. This way, you get up close, see the brown in the grass, and "presto" they are a normal person again and off of the pedestal track. Only, after it "never happend", she kept going up the pedestal track. Now she is there, I am the limerant object, she knows it, and I can't undo it. I am "caught", and am trying desperately to display to her that I have more control over my own feelings and situation than what i actually do. I know almost nothing about her, except the "moments" that we talk-- or not. The negative space with her is as important as the positive space... i.e., what goes "unsaid" is as important as what is said. What is said is definite at best, but open-ended most of the time. I see the possibility of being with her, before it evaporates right in front of my eyes. And then replays in a different way a few days later. My hopes go UP, I get a little crushed, then my Crush gets even bigger. This can't be healthy. What is wrong with me?

                So, I think MY Ne is "on" when exeriencing HER. As for her, I don't know. I see Aprodite stop and "think" sometimes before she will say something to me-- like she is either searching her own feelings, or trying to choose the right words, or trying to interpret our dynamics and what was just said-- or not said. Who knows? But when there is more than just us two in proximity, the game is different. Also, if there are other customers present, it is different then when her friends or coworkers are present. Around friends and coworkers, she will not respond outside normal cordiality-- but she will alter her "positioning" so that she is not near her boyfriend in front of me, or not clasped to one of her friends in front of me. Sometimes it is unavoidable, and these are the times when she is "forced" to acknowledge her boyfriend to me. Out loud. This kind of stings... because usually several weeks have gone by, and I hope they might have broken up by then. And gauging our dynamics, I certainly believe this may be a definite possibility (wishful thinking, maybe?).

                Se- When her friends are present, I think this is definitely what happens with me. I cannot detect anything outside of cordial response from her, although every now and then may see a sparkle in her eye. So she, and I, just kind of go with the flow. The difference is that it appears that she is the wave generator, creating the waves but also gentley steering the flow of conversation, and topics, and the back and forth dynamics of the entire group, while I am kind of helplessly left to "swim". I have to find a shallow end, sometimes, or clasp to someone who is a stronger swimmer for a little bit, until I can get my own bearings. Since I am NEW in the group, and everyone else knows each other, it is the way it is I guess. Aphrodite knows EVERYone. I know NO one.

                Si- I cannot say anything about this from her perspective. I will say that my Si is stimulated. The way she makes me feel inside is reminicient of an affair I had in highschool with a much older girl. We will call her Dione. Dione was a senior, and I was a freshman. She was beautiful, and Very skilled romantically. She could "create" magic, and make you feel that way. To this day, I do not know why she liked me, but I REAALLLY liked her. She was on a pedistal, too, and was a very positive experience for me. A lot of the techniques she used on me, I emulate in other relationships to "create" some of that magic. She was a class act. I also think she slept around alot. She was very sweet, but very gullable. I think I was someone that she could take advantage of, who would not take advantage of her. She was older, and I kind of liked it. I was hurt when she got married. But we never had a real relationship.

                I did think for a while that Aphrodite was reminicient of Kim, who I dated through highschool. We were first and first. It was a very intoxicating and romantic realtionship, and a very positive experience for such a young relationship. But Aphrodite thus far is MUCH more reminicient of Dione, who was also on a pedistal, and who I wanted very, very badly. But we never had a real relationship.

                I don't know, VJ... I would like to know your thoughts on this. I can read the theory and understand it. What I am going through now is the extent of my "field work", so I am inexperienced, and what I learn from this will be the base for how I relate all relationship dynamics in the future to type.
                • Hey Wyatt --

                  It's Memorial Day weekend and my husband just got home from a trip, so I won't spend much time with you right now.

                  Here's my coaching question: if your life was one giant personal growth workshop, what do you think the workshop is asking you to develop Right Now? What is the shining opportunity for growth? What's the obvious thing to learn?

                  Next, a reading assignment. Since this all seems to be about the topic of relationships (marriages ending, crushes, etc.), it seems from over here that you are being asked to develop this realm of your life and gain more consciousness about it. So I will ask you to read "We" by Robert Johnson, and report back what insights you gain. Will you?

                  What I notice in your posts are Se (primarily), Ni, Ne, Fi, and attempts at Ti. I haven't yet discerned Te, Fe (except for taking care of MY feelings), and Si.

                  In fact, what most jumped out at me in this most recent post is the *lack* of introverted Sensing. What I mean is that you are REALLY wanting to skip over what is REAL in order to get to what is POSSIBLE. Thus, there is avoidance around the truth that she has a boyfriend, you have previous entanglements, you are not age-appropriate, etc. I notice you wanting to sweep all those annoying facts under the rug and instead dwell on the possibilities. You seem anxious to trade what is "real" for what is "possible" -- possibly to your own detriment. Am I reading that right? (It seems a bit like the mistress hoping her lover will leave his wife.)

                  What I also hear is new consciousnesses developing for you in many domains. This experience is becoming a catalyst for many other areas of growth. In short (to use a Jungian concept), you are Waking Up.

                  It reminds me somewhat of my own life journey. When I was a young child, I always had my nose in a book, even on car trips, and I was oblivious to So Many Things. Now, entering what might be called "middle age," I am less interested in books and more interested in the outer world. If I am in the car, I want to SEE the scenery, and (in like fashion) I am Waking Up to So Many Things.

                  That's the nature of individuation. Here's a Jung quote:

                  "Living consciously is our form of individuation. A plant that is meant to produce a flower is not individuated if it does not produce it -- and the man who does not develop consciousness is not individuated, because consciousness is his flower -- it -- is his life."

                  Speaking as a coach from over here, I like to imagine you are "flowering."

                  Your thoughts?

                  -Vicky Jo
                  www.TypeInsights.com
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    vj: Hey Wyatt --

                    **w: Hey Vicky Jo!!

                    vj: It's Memorial Day weekend and my husband just got home from a trip, so I won't spend much time with you right now.

                    **w: I understand. It has taken me awhile to "catch up" on the other, anyway.

                    vj: Here's my coaching question: if your life was one giant personal growth workshop, what do you think the workshop is asking you to develop Right Now? What is the shining opportunity for growth? What's the obvious thing to learn?

                    **w: My life IS one giant personal growth workshop. At least that's what I seem to have turned it into over Aphrodite. i think it actually started a little before that. Maybe a year and a half ago. The shining opportunity for growth Right Now seems to be getting my love life in order, and stablizing myself with some form of balance. The difficulty is that I will only be here through next fall, then I am going back to school. I will be starting a business while i am there. So, it is important that i get my *core* being solidified and robust first. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said Aphrodite is a catalyst for this growth opportunity. It is an excellant opportunity because (a) I have to have a love life (b) I have never been good at getting *the fun girl that I want*, but I have seemed to usually end up with a stable relationship, (c) I have never been good at controlling my internal feelings (although I usually appear fine on the surface), and this is for all the marbles, isn't it? At least as far as my feelings now are concerned. If I can come out of this successfully, I think it is good preperation for some of the tougher aspects of business-- which often is also driven by emotion and irrationality when not handled maturely.

                    So, I think the obvious thing to learn is how to recognize and parlay my inferior processes and shadow process into something positve, that can contribute to positive relationships, and not cause me to self-destruct.

                    I also think the thing to learn is how to get Aphrodite. I want her, reallllyyyy baddly.

                    I also need friends (preferably female ENFP's). (sorry, I know you must get tired of hearing me go on and on about myself, and MY needs, but this really is about ME, isn't it? I have worried about others for so long, and neglected my needs, this has to be straigtened out, first, doesn't it?) Where other people are involved, it is ok to look after my needs as long as their needs are also taken care of.

                    vj: Next, a reading assignment. Since this all seems to be about the topic of relationships (marriages ending, crushes, etc.), it seems from over here that you are being asked to develop this realm of your life and gain more consciousness about it. So I will ask you to read "We" by Robert Johnson, and report back what insights you gain. Will you?

                    **w: I have it on order. It will be in Wednesday. It may take me through the weekend to read it.

                    vj: What I notice in your posts are Se (primarily), Ni, Ne, Fi, and attempts at Ti. I haven't yet discerned Te, Fe (except for taking care of MY feelings), and Si.

                    **w: check my last post (above) and let me know what you think.

                    vj: In fact, what most jumped out at me in this most recent post is the *lack* of introverted Sensing. What I mean is that you are REALLY wanting to skip over what is REAL in order to get to what is POSSIBLE. Thus, there is avoidance around the truth that she has a boyfriend, you have previous entanglements, you are not age-appropriate, etc. I notice you wanting to sweep all those annoying facts under the rug and instead dwell on the possibilities. You seem anxious to trade what is "real" for what is "possible" -- possibly to your own detriment. Am I reading that right? (It seems a bit like the mistress hoping her lover will leave his wife.)

                    **w: ...well, we really are jumping to conclusions about the age-appropriateness, aren't we? I mean, I have neglected asking her that question for months now specifically because I don't want it clouding my judgement of whether she would make a good mate or not. Why would we want conventional wisdoms that are not even rules anyway to ruin it for us? Besides, if it reeaaalllyy mattered to HER, wouldn't she ask ME? If WE sweep all of those annoying possibilities under the rug, but at least ONE of us is still cognizant of the "lump" under the rug, don't we have the option of cleaning it up later? After we have all the other issues dealt with? Can't deal with all of the issues at the same time, anyway, right? There has to be priority.

                    And on the mistress/wife thing.... nothing has actually HAPPENED yet. Except maybe in my own mind. And hopefully hers.

                    *blink*

                    Aye. I do hear you. You haven't really fallen on deaf ears.

                    vj: What I also hear is new consciousnesses developing for you in many domains. This experience is becoming a catalyst for many other areas of growth. In short (to use a Jungian concept), you are Waking Up.

                    It reminds me somewhat of my own life journey. When I was a young child, I always had my nose in a book, even on car trips, and I was oblivious to So Many Things. Now, entering what might be called "middle age," I am less interested in books and more interested in the outer world. If I am in the car, I want to SEE the scenery, and (in like fashion) I am Waking Up to So Many Things.

                    **w: I hear your. I have been seeing myself go through that slowly for a couple of year, now. It is VERY fast now, with HER, though.

                    vj: That's the nature of individuation. Here's a Jung quote:

                    "Living consciously is our form of individuation. A plant that is meant to produce a flower is not individuated if it does not produce it -- and the man who does not develop consciousness is not individuated, because consciousness is his flower -- it -- is his life."

                    Speaking as a coach from over here, I like to imagine you are "flowering."

                    **w: Speaking from the perspective of a Man trying to get a Woman he adores, from over HERE, I like to imagine that I am a (very young) BUCK, whose antlers are growing and spreading out so that he has very BIG Antlers, and can go compete against other bucks and win and IMPRESS his Doe with those antlers. The young buck can also use his big new antlers for other, more sophisticated things, but later. Let's go get the doe first.

                    :oD

                    Wyatt
                    • ***VJ Hey hey hey!

                      vj: It's Memorial Day weekend and my husband just got home from a trip, so I won't spend much time with you right now.

                      **w: I understand. It has taken me awhile to "catch up" on the other, anyway.

                      ***VJ Sorry I've been so bizzzzzyyyyy... :-P

                      vj: Here's my coaching question: if your life was one giant personal growth workshop, what do you think the workshop is asking you to develop Right Now? What is the shining opportunity for growth? What's the obvious thing to learn?

                      **w: My life IS one giant personal growth workshop. At least that's what I seem to have turned it into over Aphrodite.

                      ***VJ HA. I'm starting to see the INTJ "grid" light up now. (I think every person with a DomNi preference considers their life a giant personal growth workshop, LOL.)

                      w: i think it actually started a little before that. Maybe a year and a half ago. The shining opportunity for growth Right Now seems to be getting my love life in order, and stablizing myself with some form of balance.

                      ***VJ Is that really the developmental opportunity here? Because I'm not sure that's what I notice most about your messages.

                      I confess I'm wondering whether it's an opportunity for something else. Like.... (riffing here) maybe it's discovering that the head can't always rule the heart... maybe it's that you can't always get what you want... maybe that loving and desiring are two different things... maybe that you can't argue with reality... maybe that, as much as we try to have our sh*t together, something always betrays us... maybe that some things you can't *think* your way through but can only *feel* your way through... maybe that the world is full of flowers, and this is only one flower in a giant flower field... maybe -------- you get the idea.

                      w: The difficulty is that I will only be here through next fall, then I am going back to school. I will be starting a business while i am there. So, it is important that i get my *core* being solidified and robust first. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said Aphrodite is a catalyst for this growth opportunity. It is an excellant opportunity because (a) I have to have a love life

                      ***VJ Uh, where is that written??

                      w: (b) I have never been good at getting *the fun girl that I want*, but I have seemed to usually end up with a stable relationship,

                      ***VJ And you think this will give you something you've never had before, is that it?

                      w: (c) I have never been good at controlling my internal feelings (although I usually appear fine on the surface), and this is for all the marbles, isn't it? At least as far as my feelings now are concerned. If I can come out of this successfully, I think it is good preperation for some of the tougher aspects of business-- which often is also driven by emotion and irrationality when not handled maturely.

                      ***VJ So is this about trying to "tame" tertiary introverted Feeling? Because I sure get a whiff of that over here! ;-)

                      w: So, I think the obvious thing to learn is how to recognize and parlay my inferior processes and shadow process into something positve, that can contribute to positive relationships, and not cause me to self-destruct.

                      ***VJ AHA. THAT feels more like it's on the money, doesn't it??

                      ***VJ What I really notice in that first remark is your language: "I *have* to have a love life."

                      ***VJ As a coach that sentiment throws up red flags for me! I can imagine a person getting quite desperate if they said that to themselves enough times. Eventually they could use that to justify anything, possibly even doing something amoral or unconscionable to get their way.

                      ***VJ There is a vastly different energy when someone says "I *want* to have a love life," or "I *prefer* to have a love life," or even, "I *choose* to have a love life." But the other way sounds like you feel entitled.

                      ***VJ As a coach, I would want to explore that energy with you, and discover how it is serving you. Determination can be good -- up to the point where it isn't serving you.

                      ***VJ Funny, as I think about it, it seems to me that perhaps my husband had similar thoughts about his first two marriages. For the first marriage, all his friends were getting married, so he did too. I don't know whether he was desperate to have a love life exactly. But for the second marriage, I think he felt desperate and somewhat "entitled." The marriage came out of an affair (both of them were married at the time). And the irony is that within a very short time of actually getting involved in the relationship, he realized he had made a mistake. But he felt trapped by then.

                      ***VJ The crazy thing is, he believed he could "fix" the mistake, and spent the next 15 years of his life trying to MAKE it work. And of course he never succeeded.

                      I also think the thing to learn is how to get Aphrodite. I want her, reallllyyyy baddly.

                      ***VJ I confess I'm laughing over here and thinking, "Be careful what you wish for!" ;-D

                      I also need friends (preferably female ENFP's). (sorry, I know you must get tired of hearing me go on and on about myself, and MY needs, but this really is about ME, isn't it? I have worried about others for so long, and neglected my needs, this has to be straigtened out, first, doesn't it?) Where other people are involved, it is ok to look after my needs as long as their needs are also taken care of.

                      ***VJ You tell me. Are you being narcissistic? Self-centered? An egotistical a**hole?

                      ***VJ Forget what I think. What do *you* really think about you? Be honest.

                      vj: Next, a reading assignment. Since this all seems to be about the topic of relationships (marriages ending, crushes, etc.), it seems from over here that you are being asked to develop this realm of your life and gain more consciousness about it. So I will ask you to read "We" by Robert Johnson, and report back what insights you gain. Will you?

                      **w: I have it on order. It will be in Wednesday. It may take me through the weekend to read it.

                      ***VJ COOL! A man willing to do his homework! I appreciate that.

                      vj: What I notice in your posts are Se (primarily), Ni, Ne, Fi, and attempts at Ti. I haven't yet discerned Te, Fe (except for taking care of MY feelings), and Si.

                      **w: check my last post (above) and let me know what you think.

                      ***VJ Now you get to see what I did to it. (Since I can't get in your head, all I can do is guess at some of it.)

                      vj: In fact, what most jumped out at me in this most recent post is the *lack* of introverted Sensing. What I mean is that you are REALLY wanting to skip over what is REAL in order to get to what is POSSIBLE. Thus, there is avoidance around the truth that she has a boyfriend, you have previous entanglements, you are not age-appropriate, etc. I notice you wanting to sweep all those annoying facts under the rug and instead dwell on the possibilities. You seem anxious to trade what is "real" for what is "possible" -- possibly to your own detriment. Am I reading that right? (It seems a bit like the mistress hoping her lover will leave his wife.)

                      **w: ...well, we really are jumping to conclusions about the age-appropriateness, aren't we? I mean, I have neglected asking her that question for months now specifically because I don't want it clouding my judgement of whether she would make a good mate or not. Why would we want conventional wisdoms that are not even rules anyway to ruin it for us? Besides, if it reeaaalllyy mattered to HER, wouldn't she ask ME? If WE sweep all of those annoying possibilities under the rug, but at least ONE of us is still cognizant of the "lump" under the rug, don't we have the option of cleaning it up later? After we have all the other issues dealt with? Can't deal with all of the issues at the same time, anyway, right? There has to be priority.

                      ***VJ LOLOL.

                      ***VJ For the record, I was merely picking up on remarks *you* made about age appropriateness. And a few other hints that made me think there was a big ole elephant in the room not being talked about.

                      ***VJ (I like to talk about elephants.)

                      And on the mistress/wife thing.... nothing has actually HAPPENED yet. Except maybe in my own mind. And hopefully hers.

                      *blink*

                      Aye. I do hear you. You haven't really fallen on deaf ears.

                      ***VJ Tha's my boy. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

                      vj: What I also hear is new consciousnesses developing for you in many domains. This experience is becoming a catalyst for many other areas of growth. In short (to use a Jungian concept), you are Waking Up.

                      It reminds me somewhat of my own life journey. When I was a young child, I always had my nose in a book, even on car trips, and I was oblivious to So Many Things. Now, entering what might be called "middle age," I am less interested in books and more interested in the outer world. If I am in the car, I want to SEE the scenery, and (in like fashion) I am Waking Up to So Many Things.

                      **w: I hear you. I have been seeing myself go through that slowly for a couple of year, now. It is VERY fast now, with HER, though.

                      ***VJ "You can only be really conscious of things which you have experienced, so individuation must be understood as life. Only life integrates, only life and what we do in life brings out the individual. . . Real consciousness has to be based upon life experience, just talking about things is not enough." -C.G.Jung

                      ***VJ It sounds like your anima has been animated in a big way, so of *course* it feels fast and heavily energized.

                      **w: Speaking from the perspective of a Man trying to get a Woman he adores, from over HERE, I like to imagine that I am a (very young) BUCK, whose antlers are growing and spreading out so that he has very BIG Antlers, and can go compete against other bucks and win and IMPRESS his Doe with those antlers. The young buck can also use his big new antlers for other, more sophisticated things, but later. Let's go get the doe first.

                      ***VJ ROFL!

                      -Vicky Jo
                      www.TypeInsights.com
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    *** It says it won't "thread" anymore, but I don't know where else to stick this. So.....

                    I did read through the article. I will offer your some first thoughts.

                    God!!! I wish I was sitting directly in front of you so we could have a conversation!!! The flood of what I want to say cannot come out of my hands and into the page fast enough without me losing half my previous thoughts in order to salvage the next ones.

                    *** Yeah, I know that feeling. I think it's a DomNi thing. It's like asking me to shove an entire universe through a pinhole called my "mouth."

                    And Damn!! I just lost three.

                    BBLLAAAHHHHH!!!! Did you get all of that??? Make sense?

                    *** I'm still learning Jabberwocky, sorry. ;-P

                    Ok... let me slow down. Maybe if I get one coherenet thought out tonight, it is success.

                    Me: I can see that lately, I am experiencing ALL of these. It does not happen simultaneously, but I am AWARE that I am BECOMING aware using all of these methods (even before I read the article, but I did not know all of these were attributes of the constructs you have pointed out in this way), where as before I began experiencing HER, I did not.

                    *** Congratulations! ;-)

                    Ni was DEFINITELY about the ONLY way I conciously became aware of things, situations, people, etc. I know you will argue that we all use all of these methods and that we have one preference that we use FIRST, but I will argue that I have not been CONCIOUS of the other methods before.

                    *** It's weird to have the primacy of that all-important process challenged, hunh...

                    Since I have been experiencing Aphrodite, I have been CONCIOUS of all of these methods in myself, and trying to come to grips with what it means for myself, my life, and what the possibilities are that i can come out of this and actually HAVE HER, also. Is it necessary that I have her, or is she just a catalyst for my own self awareness. I think i REALLY want her!

                    *** Maybe you Really Want Her *AND* she is a catalyst for your self awareness. Is that possible?


                    Ni- Definitely me, 100%, no doubt. I can't tell if she experiences this.

                    *** You sold me with your post below. (The idea of life as an ongoing personal growth workshop is somewhat typical DomNi.)

                    Ne- This is where it started with her for me. Like I said, she was not anything "extra" before. Then, about 6 months ago, it was a "glance". Maybe a slight hesitation, and the dynamics of our conversation was different depending on who was in the room. So, I took a chance, "happened" to see her alone in the store one night, and introduced myself, and "asked" if she would be interested in talking or having coffee. She said sure, then it got complicated real quick, I backed out, she backed out, we decided on another day, then it never happend. What triggered this was that I knew I was already kind of developing a "crush" on her, and my marriage was falling apart. I needed someone to talk to, and I did not want to be falling for someone else on a rebound, so I thought the best way to "undo" it was to do what i normally do in these kind of situations, which is to get to "know" the person. This way, you get up close, see the brown in the grass, and "presto" they are a normal person again and off of the pedestal track. Only, after it "never happend", she kept going up the pedestal track. Now she is there, I am the limerant object, she knows it, and I can't undo it. I am "caught", and am trying desperately to display to her that I have more control over my own feelings and situation than what i actually do. I know almost nothing about her, except the "moments" that we talk-- or not. The negative space with her is as important as the positive space... i.e., what goes "unsaid" is as important as what is said. What is said is definite at best, but open-ended most of the time. I see the possibility of being with her, before it evaporates right in front of my eyes. And then replays in a different way a few days later. My hopes go UP, I get a little crushed, then my Crush gets even bigger. This can't be healthy. What is wrong with me?

                    *** What I notice is that Ne is a shadow process for you, and that it seems to be fueling Tertiary Fi. Can we trust that data??

                    *** For the INTJ pattern, "they can become stubborn about responding to emerging information and locking onto a hidden meaning."

                    So, I think MY Ne is "on" when exeriencing HER. As for her, I don't know. I see Aprodite stop and "think" sometimes before she will say something to me-- like she is either searching her own feelings, or trying to choose the right words, or trying to interpret our dynamics and what was just said-- or not said. Who knows? But when there is more than just us two in proximity, the game is different. Also, if there are other customers present, it is different then when her friends or coworkers are present. Around friends and coworkers, she will not respond outside normal cordiality-- but she will alter her "positioning" so that she is not near her boyfriend in front of me, or not clasped to one of her friends in front of me. Sometimes it is unavoidable, and these are the times when she is "forced" to acknowledge her boyfriend to me. Out loud. This kind of stings... because usually several weeks have gone by, and I hope they might have broken up by then. And gauging our dynamics, I certainly believe this may be a definite possibility (wishful thinking, maybe?).

                    *** Yes, you said what I was wondering. Is Ne showing up as "wishful thinking," which isn't reliable.

                    Se- When her friends are present, I think this is definitely what happens with me. I cannot detect anything outside of cordial response from her, although every now and then may see a sparkle in her eye. So she, and I, just kind of go with the flow. The difference is that it appears that she is the wave generator, creating the waves but also gentley steering the flow of conversation, and topics, and the back and forth dynamics of the entire group, while I am kind of helplessly left to "swim". I have to find a shallow end, sometimes, or clasp to someone who is a stronger swimmer for a little bit, until I can get my own bearings. Since I am NEW in the group, and everyone else knows each other, it is the way it is I guess. Aphrodite knows EVERYone. I know NO one.

                    *** Pardon my cynicism, but I also wonder just how much you're *missing* that's right in front of your nose. (Beebe: "Our inferior process can be flagrantly unadapted.")

                    Si- I cannot say anything about this from her perspective. I will say that my Si is stimulated. The way she makes me feel inside is reminicient of an affair I had in highschool with a much older girl. We will call her Dione. Dione was a senior, and I was a freshman. She was beautiful, and Very skilled romantically. She could "create" magic, and make you feel that way. To this day, I do not know why she liked me, but I REAALLLY liked her. She was on a pedistal, too, and was a very positive experience for me. A lot of the techniques she used on me, I emulate in other relationships to "create" some of that magic. She was a class act. I also think she slept around alot. She was very sweet, but very gullable. I think I was someone that she could take advantage of, who would not take advantage of her. She was older, and I kind of liked it. I was hurt when she got married. But we never had a real relationship.

                    *** So this relationship offers you the opportunity to make an old "wrong" right?

                    I did think for a while that Aphrodite was reminicient of Kim, who I dated through highschool. We were first and first. It was a very intoxicating and romantic realtionship, and a very positive experience for such a young relationship. But Aphrodite thus far is MUCH more reminicient of Dione, who was also on a pedistal, and who I wanted very, very badly. But we never had a real relationship.

                    *** I'm wondering whether you are finding value from Mr. Robert Johnson yet....?

                    I don't know, VJ... I would like to know your thoughts on this. I can read the theory and understand it. What I am going through now is the extent of my "field work", so I am inexperienced, and what I learn from this will be the base for how I relate all relationship dynamics in the future to type.

                    *** Not to sound snotty, but two thoughts:
                    1) we can rarely see our own "stuff"
                    2) I've been working with type for over ten years. It is not a one-stop process. It takes a lot of work and effort to master it. It's not likely something you'll achieve overnight.

                    *** Is that okay with you?

                    -Vicky Jo
                    www.TypeInsights.com
                    • Hello from an ENFP,

                      I was pointed in the diretion of this post by Wyatt. (and as an E, I can't help but add my two cents).

                      While the posts are far too long for me to comment on in detail, I just wanted to say that this whole string is the best possible demonstration a) why ENFP's adore INTJ's, b) why ENFP's think INTJ's may be space aliens.

                      It is so wonderful (and alien) that INTJ's analyse 'feelings' and 'relationships' in such devoted detail. All the talk of statistical variences etc is something an ENFP could not impgine applying in a conversation about feelings.

                      An ENFP is more likely to go talk to the person they are thinking about - if we do post about 'feelings' on a board, it is more for the social interation rather than due to actual confusion about 'feelings'.

                      But at the same time we quite like that INTJ's are dedicated and serious minded enough to explore relationships in these terms.

                      It is also wonderful comparing this post to posts on the ENFP board. You have kept more on topic for the last 10 months or so than any ENFP post does in a week.

                      Do keep it up! It is really good to see some N-led order in the world. Will drop by when I need some time out for my ENFP scattiness.

                      M x


                      • Hi all,

                        I am an ENFP who has completely fallen for a friend who is an awesome INTJ. I keep falling head over heels for this type, but this guy, I swear, is it.

                        We have been friends since last November, There is some kind of deep, almost wordless, and sub-texty bond that happens when we just sit down and talk together. The first 15 minutes of our conversations, I go through the inner monologue in my mind of: "Oh-my-gosh, he so cute, so smart, agh, I like him so much, does he have any idea?, oh, he has to be able to tell, I have a neon sign over my head, don't I?" And then I get insecure that an INTJ couldn't like an ENFP, that I wouldn't make any sense to him, and seem concerned with things that are not logical or organized.

                        However, after the first 15 minutes, the conversation settles into this groove, almost like an alternate universe, full of sub-text, thing we say with eyes, but don't say, and tons of sharing about life, music, family, back and forth, not me, the mild E, talking over him, but him opening up and sharing when he hardly tells anyone anything.

                        The conversations usually end up being 2 hours plus. They go all over the place and I leave them feeling I'm on a cloud, that I've learned more about him, life, myself that I could have ever dreamed.

                        I have tried to learn about him, so I now expect after these heart-to-hearts, it's time to leave him alone to process and be independent INTJ man. I usually don't reconnect with him until about 2 weeks later. He never calls me first, he never writes me first, but if I write him, he almost always writes right back. He says he has a "wall " and doesn't like letting people get close. Eventually I break down, miss him so much, that I call or write and we banter a lot and finally have coffee a few weeks later when I invent some *reason* why it's important to have coffee.

                        So we have these coffee chats about once per month. Almost wonder if a routine of sorts is setting in. I get really insecure, ENFP that I am, in this process, especially the part where I just don't hear from him, the *wall*, if you will. Is that a sign that he doesn't like me, doesn't want me in his life, since he disappears and doesn't initiate?

                        But then I think about those magical talks, how it is to connect together after all these months, and just remember what it's like to be in those, and I have to believe we are good friends.

                        This is new for me. Last b/f was an ENFJ, and we just dove right in to that deep relationship one week after meeting. Dated an ESTP at 21 and that was a thrill seeking whirlwind. But nothing lasted. No deep soul bonded that lasted as long as I've had this friendship.

                        What do I do with this? During our last chat there was this moment where I told him that if anything ever happened to him, I'd just . . . and got all choked up (he was really depressed). I just looked at him and couldn't talk -- so strange for an ENFP. Held his gaze about 15 seconds, looked down, looked back up and he said: "You're hiding something."

                        Now if that doesn't say it all. He just knows thing. Things unsaid, thing usually so unseen by others. And with so few words. Well, I just choked and told him I was there for him, but didn't break down and confess how I'm so in love with him.

                        What do I do? Should I run for the hills, away from the *wall*? My friends say, if he liked me, he'd initiate, he'd pursue me, especially after all this time. Is the wall an INTJ thing? Is it real or is it fear talking? Should I keep reaching out, beyond the wall, when it seems right (don't ever want to crowd him out)?

                        I try to show him he can be his INTJ self and be accepted. that's what ENFP's do, we love, we accept. I think his personality traits are awesome. Think he may value what this ENFP adds to his life? Think he may feel something back? Since most of you are INTJ's, I'm happy to give more info. if needed :). My best friend is a female INTJ. Just love y'all.

                        Thanks for you being lovely INTJ's. I'm your biggest fan. Any help is appreciated.
                        • Unsu...
                           
                          my advice is that you have a "moment of truth" with him. tell him you recognize that there's something going on, an attraction, and that you're interested in pursuing it. I think he can handle that. We INTJs like directness and honesty. I wouldn't gush and tell him you're in love with him, that might scare him off. But def. confront these feelings.

                          The whole wall thing is legit. And I think your friends are ill informed if they tell you "if he liked you, he'd make a move." for better or worse, we don't make the first move, but boy do we appreciate it when the other person does. kind of sexy. and we'll step up to the plate when you initiate. so go for it!
                          • Thanks for your input. You're right, gushing about falling in love would be a bad idea. Understatement is key. :) Running my impulsive ENFP ideas past thinker friends *before* I say or do things has been a life-saver countless times. :) I hope I can muster up the courage to do what you suggest. I may have to be a little drunk to do it. :)

                            Random P.S. on this nearly year-long saga. I just saw Mr. Wonderful INTJ tonight. He talked about moving out of this area and I blurted out: "Don't move!" And he said: "Why not?"
                            And I'm thinking, oh-my-gosh, do I have to club you over the head? :) And I just said, "You can't -- not now!" Then he said to me and his best friend sitting nearby, "Then you guys come with me." I take it as a sign that an INTJ-ENFP connection can be so archetypal and deep. I am so often inspired by his way of thinking and I think he is starting to feel valued and connected to those of us who care deeply for him, feeling loved by the ENFP even if I'm not saying it.
                            • Unsu...
                               
                              Almost a year long? Wow. This sounds like a movie, You've Got Mail or something (btw that Meg Ryan - total ENFP!). Just don't be surprised if he doesn't embrace the idea of a relationship right away. I'm not saying he wouldn't go for it, but it could be that he never pursued it because of the wall or some other inhibition, and for whatever reason didn't think you felt the way you do and thus got used to just being friends. So he may be surprised and need some time to fully absorb the reality of the situation and reconceptualize the notion of his friendship with you. Or you two may fall madly in love and live happily ever after, who knows! ;)
                              • Yes, it is a lot like a movie. If only you knew. The worst part was last winter, a friend of ours, I'd guess an ESTJ guy, decided he would really like me and "put a claim in" on, me. So for 6-7 months or so, INTJ guy knows that a friend of his has a *huge* crush on me. That sure complicated things. That could partly explain why we are where we are today with this. :) I finally had to tell ESTJ guy that I didn't feel that way. INstead of being a gentleman about it, he freaked out and started attacking the friendship between me and Mr. INTJ. A friend of mine told me that he was *jealous* and perceived *mutual interest* between me and INTJ. That is actually some of the only flimsy evidence that I have that he may like me, too.

                                Even though I'm a strong F, I was raised by mostly T's and sure wish I had more *evidence* that he may return the feelings before saying something to him. And actually, the ESTJ guy got ahold of the INTJ and told him things I shared in cofidence, one of which may have been that I liked Mr. INTJ. So I may have been outed by vindictive Mr. ESTJ. It's absurd -- I have no interest in dating an ESTJ! Too restrictive! The funny thing is, sweet Mr. INTJ won't tell me what was said b/c he doesn't want to hurt me. I love how INTJs can seem so grumpy at times and then one day turn around and be so polite and sweet. It's a quirky part of the charm to me. :)

                                Having been friends all this time does up the ante. It's a definitive break with my past. But then again, that is why I feel I am so far "off the maps" with this guy and this experience. Maybe it's meant to be. That's what the ENFP dreamer hopes, of course. :) I do relate a lot to Meg Ryan -- she seems to make a lot of sense to me :). I think the best paralel movie love stories would be either Elizabethtown, Good Will Hunting or parts of Pride and Prejudice. All my favorites . . . *sigh*.

                                So I suppose I"m a firm beliver in the INTJ-ENFP match. Anybody have thoughts on what that would look like for an ENFP female and INTJ male? What it be like? :)
                                • Unsu...
                                   
                                  As I don't know your friend, I can't tell you whether he would return the feelings. But in these kinds of matters, I can tell you that I often lose perspective, so I try to look at things objectively. You know that he shares things with you that he doesn't share with anyone else. That's a big deal. He might know that you like him, and yet he continues his friendship with you (that implies that if he didn't reciprocate, he wouldn't want to lead you on by being close friends. As you said, he's a gentleman). Try to look at things from his perspective - maybe he stepped aside for ESTJ because either they're friends or because he doesn't want to compete over you (we try to avoid such drama). Maybe he can't tell how you feel because from his perspective you're nice and charismatic with everybody, so he doesn't want to misconstrue things and ruin a friendship. There's no way to avoid taking that risk and finding out. If you take that risk, you'd find out if he reciprocates (great!) or if he doesn't (and you can move on). If you don't, eventually you'll move on but live with the regret of never having found out and possibly missing out.
                                  • You are right. A loss of perspective is so easy. I feel so aware of my limitations as an ENFP, and this can definitely be one of them.

                                    You're right that it's a big deal when he as an INTJ shares so much with me. I keep feeling like he is handing me a fragile gem or something, the disclosure of what goes on behind "the wall." He keeps saying "No one's ever been this way with me before" when it comes to offering a listening ear, support, acceptance. I have always felt he trusts and respects me and vice versa.

                                    I think it's funny because so many ENFP's seem to struggle with believing that our gifts and talents, things as intangible as enthusiasm, spontanaeity, creativity, compassion aren't worth much currency in a world that seems to value pragmatism, output, and the excellence/expertise for which INTJ's are famous. :).

                                    So he seems to feel valued and accepted at a tough time in his life, when he is not performing at peak level, which is bugging him to no end as an INTJ. And I think it is helping to heal the nagging insecurity that my ENFP gifts aren't valued, important or even really noticed by many. Perhaps that is some of why this pairing can work.

                                    It does seem like a take-a-big-risk-and-play-the-lottery situation. My intuition says he is being secretive about his thoughts and/or feelings about "us" out of respect for his ESTJ friend, and possibly because he doesn't know iwhether my regard for him is a product of a friendly lifestyle or something uniquely for him.

                                    One last closing thought (sorry for the long posts): My friend says the INTJ and ENFP getting together will take a long time because, metaphorically speaking, the rebar has to be laid down first and then the concrete poured on it to build the foundation that will be so durable over the long haul.

                                    I would love to hear from any INTJ's who have had it work out with ENFP's and especially how you ended up getting together. Thanks!
                                    • Unsu...
                                       
                                      It's funny you say that "ENFP's seem to struggle with believing that our gifts and talents, things as intangible as enthusiasm, spontanaeity, creativity, compassion aren't worth much currency in a world that seems to value pragmatism, output, and the excellence/expertise for which INTJ's are famous." That's the very thing I love about your type. For what it's worth, I value it highly.
                                      • Wow, thanks for the affirmation. Most ENFP's can't get enough of that! :) It is the $64 million dollar question. I wholeheartedly value his gifts, talents, INTJ ways, but does he value mine? I feel like I could sit and listen to him talk all day long, not that he would talk all day long . . . :) It just fascinates me. We talked last night and he was chatting my ear off. I also think it's great to hear how *calm* he is about most things in life. I'm the one flitting around, out there in the world having adventures and seeing all this beauty, spinning thoughts and ideas like a spiral or a web, and he is so solid and calm.

                                        However, I hate to let everyone down, but I didn't muster up the nerve to talk about *it*, the thing that is maybe going on between us. I'm afraid it could wreck the friendship if he doesn't reciprocate. I am such a chicken. :)
                                    • dreamer, as an intj male, my advice is to take the straight forward obvious path and simply ask "is there something between us". It seems obvious he values you or he would have started ignoring you long ago. An intj has difficulty with social situations you intuitively understand. I have to work at understanding a specific social dynamic and often I just ignore it because I would rather expend the energy elsewhere (and besides... I really don't care what others think). Ask him... then he knows where you stand. If he responds in the negative, don't read any more into than a straight forward response. There are seldom ulterior motives behind the words.

                                      FWIW, take my advice vis-a-vi enfp vs intj. what you see is what you get. you will not change him. intj's have an incredible sense of self. ask yourself, will he keep your interest? that wall will always remain to one degree or another. can you accept that?

                                      Your type is an enigma to me. I enjoy it. I like to observe. I learn from it. I am periodically frustrated and annoyed by it. We share a wonder of the world, but our approaches to understanding it are often the antithesis of one another. I could certainly use an ENFP friend but would be cautious to accept one as a mate (read this as "I need you but I can't take you 24/7").
                                      • Hi John,
                                        Thanks for your insights -- they make a lot of sense. We did talk for over an hour last night on the phone. I keep being suprised at how much he talks, and then tells me how he doesn't really talk to anybody. I think that's cute. :) To all the INTJ's out there, it's so terrific to be let into the holy grail INTJ inner circle -- makes us ENFP's feel like a million bucks. :)

                                        He does have a strong sense of self, but is having a hard time coming face to face with some of his imperfections with certain things going on in his life. I'm always suprised when he admits to having moments where he's unsure inside but not showing it on the outside, because he seems so confident.

                                        He will keep my interest, I have no doubt. He is such an alluring enigma. I can't BS him. I can't use the "charm offensive" that works on most others. We love wit and humor, talking in wierd accents, making quirky inside jokes. And most of all, we keep reading each other with some kind of intuitive x-ray vision. I don't get it. I've never experienced anything like it.

                                        I still think I'm going to need a little liquid courage to ask him about what's going on. I'm sure it's the straightforwardness of the reply that I fear. :)
                                        • Every 10 years or so, I feel like sharing some insight (FWIW).

                                          VickyJo is right that an ENFP can complement an INTJ. I shouldn't generalize my unique personality to everyone who happens to share the same basic type. Besides, it appears from her bio that VickyJo has considerably more experience than I.

                                          Certainly the “extroversion” and “feeling” components of my wife are wonderful complements to my personality. They literally prevent me from devolving into an isolationist perfectionist workaholic. R21left is 100% correct that the qualities of your personality are what I need and love. But they also cut as dual edge swords… spontaneity can also mean unpredictable and enthusiasm can mean being unrealistic. Being successful, I guess, means striking the proper balance.

                                          How ‘bout a little more insight into the twisted mind of an intj? Your “chicken-ness” just drives me nuts. I considered the alternatives, formed a plan, addressed the contingencies and you failed to act. You could question the plan; debate and refine it. But not acting on it because of FEELINGS just makes me want to pull out what little of my hair that remains.

                                          Don’t take this as a personal attack so much as a glimpse into my thought process. I won’t presume to speak for the object of your affection but I can tell you how I would act in his situation and perhaps you can extrapolate from that. You have sent signals that you consider plain and obvious. At best, I would still be confused… waiting and gathering information until my logical thought process concludes that some risk/reward threshold has been crossed and that it would be in my best interest to reciprocate. Charm, especially overwhelming charm, can be counterproductive. I have difficulties grasping the subtleties and I may simply interpret it as you attempting to manipulate me.

                                          What you need to see is that being direct would be most effective. It prevents me from making a logical, yet possibly incorrect, analysis of the situation. If I respond “yes”, the relationship can move forward. If I respond “no”, the only thing that changes is that I now have a clearer read of what’s happening. If I respond “no”, feel free to ask “why”. You will most likely get straight forward collection of logical reasons. You can debate the logic of the reasoning but countering with “…but don’t you feel…” is probably just wasting breath. Relatively speaking, feelings are something that I don’t place as much value on nor do I understand them as well

                                          I know that that rejection may hurt you. And, that that rejection may change your perception of the relationship. This frustrates me. I can’t fully understand it, can’t control it, it doesn’t make logical sense and it seems to be completely your fault. My response is always, then, to retreat. To ignore, either passively or actively. Anger or dislike brings biting sarcasm. But, simple failure or confusion in a social situation redirects me back into myself. I don’t believe I’ve ever raised my voice to my wife. But, no doubt, the silence can cut as deeply as words or overt actions. I know this, but I am simply not as adept at dealing with such things as you are. My motto is something like: "When you've reached the bottom of the hole, it is best to stop digging." God gave me great intelligence, yet this is the best I can do in a social situation.

                                          That is why I say if your advances are not being ignored and are actually being reciprocated, then there is probably an appreciation for you. Probably also confusion on how to proceed. You shared all this with total strangers, why not share it with him?

                                          As I see it, you have 3 choices: 1) Wait (potentially a very long time) until the clues are so obvious that both you and he know where you stand. 2) Ask and know (risking rejection). 3) Give up and never know. The “thinking” part of parses and analyzes and concludes that option (2) has the best risk/reward.

                                          P.S. Liquid courage is contra-indicated.
                                          P.P.S. It should now be obvious that the internal world of an INTJ software engineer is quite twisted and you probably also should question my wife’s sanity in accepting my proposal of marriage...
                                          • Thank you John for sharing 10 years worth of accumulated wisdom! It was a blessing to read. :) I have read and re-read what you wrote several times, mulling over the ideas presented. I agree with all of it. And I feel as if there is much greater clarity and insight into what is going on inside his brilliant little head! :)

                                            I guess in all these posts I've been attempting to share what an ENFP can feel in their heart for an INTJ. I really do think it's the stuff of great love stories. I attribute it to the stimulating challenge, the freedom to finally be yourself because it helps you find out who you really are and grow, and the endless witty banter. :) Maybe the pairing could be aptly described as brilliant heart meets brilliant mind. :)

                                            Alright, you've done it. I'm going to listen to true INTJ reason and take the risk of asking him about it. Your arguments encouraged me that it may not be as big a risk as I initially feared. Thank you again.

                                            P.S. Oh, and your wife sounds perfectly sane. As far as I'm concerned, you guys won the lottery! :)
                                    • FWIW Lenore Thompson has INTJ prefs and her husband (a minister) has ENFP prefs. I found them to be pretty wonderful together. ;-)
                                      • Thanks Vicky Jo. Appreciate the encouragement. It is fun to dream a little about what could be . . . :)

                                        And oops, r21left and john, I replied to the other posts a little further up this thread.

                                        I'm open to all the input I can get! :)


                                        • enfp charm thing is just social play, were very playful at begginings of relationships because we are EXCITED, twitterpated, like otters. and we only stop after half a dozen sex sessions or told to pack it in, we have to be told like children its not acceptable to you(to our faces, by you to the point because we cant pick up on lingering feelings, maybe body language though or quick responses).... its only a mating ritual to let you know how much we like you. nonsense as it is. we can think, logically if we need to, but its boring in relationships. only good for work......i could just approach someone and say hey is there something between us or not? but light humoured play is toe wiggling. i swear though i couldnt date my kind....*shudders* unlless it was a girl and i was a man. but i love enfp friends oh god theyre so naturally funny and naturally amusing and when you have one (i have one) they are soooo relaxing to be around. completley unthreateneing.... my intj friend is stimulating, she scares me but only because i cannot FEEL her. well i can sometimes, rare occasions and its quick sharp shock job.
                                          but when i view her art, fuck its an amazing to -do. everything is in there that should be.
                                          so the logical/illogical TJ/FP thing is just a complement. not mate suitors, unless you enjoy challenge that is. but saying that, i can see where myers is coming from when he says its a perfect match.....bit like cat and mouse. tom and jerry comic for the enfp, frankenstiens creation for intj. I'd end up being cut up, analysed, and sewn back together like a rag dolly with perhaps a then raised eyebrow!!! and knowing me i'd let 'em. just to shut them up. anything for a quiet life u know. yeh here you go heres my cortex dont forget to put it back in the mornin' i belneeding it for work.....or maybe not...

                                          oh and by the way, dont upset us by hiding your intentions......*puckkers lips* enfp knows where your coming from. (unless way gone confused, but when fully recovered tend to resume rememberence!)and to fall out with an enfp is like........ your bad not mine.





                                          • Unsu...
                                             
                                            Is it possible to get you completely but not understand a word you're saying at the same time? I think this post is the essence of INTJ-ENFP dynamics. Very stimulating indeed.
                                            • maybe so, but I didn't really understand the post. somtimes I can't understand other ENFP's :).

                                              We tend to like stream-of-consciousness writing and we think in webs or spirals. How anyone understands us is beyond me. My INTJ friend helps me sort it all out. :) I guess it's encouraging to know intuition can guide us in connecting with each other.

                                              Random snapshot: last night I just sat in my car in the driveway, listened to my new favorite band Eisley and gazed up at the moon and stars for quite awhile, in awe the beauty of the night sky. Knowing him has inspired me to finally start writing songs again. *sigh* sometimes I can't tell if being an ENFP is a blessing or a curse. :)
                                              • >> Random snapshot: last night I just sat in my car in the driveway...gazed up at the moon and stars for quite awhile, in awe the beauty of the night sky. <<

                                                Random snapshot: I was driving home pondering whether Schrödingers cat is dead or alive or something else altogether... or whether the cat is dead in my universe but alive in an otherwise identical parallel universe.
                                            • yes, thats it r21left,
                                              think in terms of white fluffy clouds and clear blue skies
                                              hot chocolate pomm pomms and labrador puppies with squishy faces
                                              see, i dont need to understand what your saying, i dont need to understand anything, coz i know everything will be alright. heart over mind, mind over matter hehe.....
                                              • ok someone please intj it....id love an interpretation from your squaddies
                                                • Oh, I'm sad. It's gone quiet here. :(
                                                  • I feel compelled to write that INTJs meet the world with their Rational process, while ENFPs meet the world with their Irrational process. Before that gets interpreted as an insult, let me hasten to say that these are Jung's terms -- rational meaning the judging or decisionmaking processes and irrational meaning the perceiving processes. Thus, ENFPs share their irrational perceptions while INTJs share their organizing judgments. These types don't use the same "channels."

                                                    Sometimes (especially with email) such differences can make us feel like the proverbial "ships in the night," passing one another by shrouded in darkness and mystery.

                                                    Vive le difference! And sometimes the line falls silent when the ships are too far apart or it's just too dark to penetrate.
                                                    • Vicky Jo, I am in complete agreement with you, here. I definitely see and experience differences in how I perceive and communicate with certain personality types here (particularly ENFP's) and how I perecieve and communicate with the same people in real life. Some elements are the same. Many are not.

                                                      Well said.

                                                      I drive a submarine, by the way. A nuclear one. I only surface once in a while. ;oP
                                                      • I would also agree. I think I've seen some of the dynamics of these types when they interact happening right here on this thread. Nothing like a live example!

                                                        In reflecting over the past few days, I would say this. The INTJ temperament, especially in a male, has a deep masculinity to it and the ENFP temperament expressed in females can be very feminine. I think that's the allure and the rub all at the same time. :)

                                                        Another element I have experienced as an ENFP is that my INTJ friend can read me like a book. Say the thing I really mean or wish I had the courage to say. And of course, he finds a way to say it in 5 words or less! :) It forces me to see hidden parts of me, to confront who I really am, because any BS just isn't going to work. I truly love that!

                                                        On his end, I guess I'm starting to understand that warmth and acceptance from the ENFP can go a long way to inspire and strengthen the INTJ, to have the shored up confidence to use their formidable gifts and talents. Especially if the chips are down and work isn't going well. I know I find myself having a goal of communicating "I don't just like you for all these amazing things you can do and understand. Those abilities are awe-inspiring. But I would still like you if your superpowers weren't working. I'd love you for who you are inside."

                                                        Maybe the union of these types yields a whole even greater than the sum of the two parts. I don't know. I'm starting to think it's possible . . . :)
                                                        • Unsu...
                                                           
                                                          "Maybe the union of these types yields a whole even greater than the sum of the two parts. I don't know. I'm starting to think it's possible . . . :) "

                                                          I KNOW that's the case with ENFP-INTJ pairings. Or at least that's the one pairing that has the greatest chance for synergy. Some relationships can be zero-sum, others synergistic, and others still a blackhole.
                                                • Uhhh... I'm still pondering. Don't be offended but the first thought that comes to mind is a saying of my grandmother's... "ich glaube, dass du hast nicht alle Tassen im Schrank". If I were a computer, I think you would be seeing in me the dreaded blue screen of death. Did you know pi can be calculated as the infinite series 4/1 - 4/3 + 4/5 - 4/7... Stop, Dave. I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going. There is no question about it. I can feel it.
                                                  • Well, I invited him to have coffee with me yesterday night. But he told me he thought he was probably going to a nearby theme park with a small group of friends ( pre-existing invite/committment). But he did say if that didn't end up happening, he would be up for coffee. I mentioned that if it didn't work out for yesterday, maybe rescheduling could be in order.

                                                    So I guess now I'm looking at if I want to go to the effort of pursuing a rescheduling of coffee. It's hard to believe he could have feelings somewhere inside toward me if he doesn't initiate being around me, doesn't take me up on invites, etc., etc.

                                                    A big part of me just figures it's better to continue on with the "friends as usual approach." We have been friends, so that is our backdrop. Asking these risky questions about having more feelings than that is so indescribably tough for me. If he doesn't feel the same, I don't want to lose our friendship. And to be honest, I'm getting sad about it and very afraid of the risks. This is the hard part of being NF.

                                                    I'm stuck in not knowing what I can actually get myself to do . . .
                                                    • Unsu...
                                                       
                                                      Could it be that your hesitation is due to a subconscious awareness that he won't reciprocate? Maybe if you were to bring those trepidations to the surface, you could overcome your fear or decide once-and-for-all that the risk isn't worth it.
                                                    • Don't spend so much time analyzing his actions or lack thereof. A friend once had feelings for me, dropped numerous clues, basically called and told me, even her sister pretty much told me to my face. Years later she confided "I really had a crush on you back when...". Only then did I figure it out. Don't underestimate the social ineptitude of males (especially intj males). Anything short of a hammer blow between the eyes is probably somewhat ambiguous.

                                                      Can't promise you won't get hurt but I'm not sure the status quo is any less painful.

                                                      Work on confidence, neediness is really really a turn off. Yeah, I know that's easy for me to say since as far as I can tell, confidence and independence are simply an intrinsic part of my personality.

                                                      It occurs to me that I'm crap lousy at relationship advice. All I see is a system whose rules I attempt to deduce and manipulate.

                                                      I went over and read the enfp forum. alice in wonderland kind'a wierd. thought they must just be making stuff up. seriously; i wanted to "fix" all those people.

                                                      Strange that I observe that the vast majority of people approach the world differently than me, yet I have a high degree of certainty that my approach is correct and that they need behavior modification... this must be the arrogance that intj's keep getting (wrongly) accused of.
                                                      • yes, it's easy to say "just develop confidence." My past experience was with extraverted guys that pursued me, the whole sweep-you-off-your-feet thing, with so little guesswork. I never had to go through this stuff before on account of that.

                                                        I guess the only problem was the phenomenon of the ENFP getting used as an intriguing novelty, valued for the unicorn-sprinkling-fairy-dust-side-of-us. But we have other facets, too. We care deeply, from the soul. Something that the old suitors did not always seem to be able to see.

                                                        And so boy meets girl and girl meets boy. INTJ and ENFP, who are package deals, strengths and weaknessess, coming from their own contexts. Landing in uncharted territory, with little to guide them but the light shining from her heart and his mind.

                                                        So call me a unicorn with a retractable horn. It's almost like a hologram. The freedom, spontaneity, delight, unbridled dream-casting is unveiled when love is shared, birthed from the synergy and support of those around. It's not a side show, an act, a means to an end. It is the product of feeling inspired, challenged and suprisingly cherished by those near to her heart. Especially by the lonely boy that crosses her path from time to time and sees her.

                                                        I'd rather the world and it's bold suitors think me an interesting white horse. The show pony with intriguing tricks. They can't see the truth. And why show them? Only love can unveil it, anyway. What will happen to the lonely boy? Will his woodland wandering bring him her way? She sees his mind blazing, he sees her bright beacon, and all of the forest watches and waits . . .
                                                        • I don't think anyone doubts you have much to offer. But, he may simply not understand that affection is what you seek. Don't underestimate male cluelessness in this regard.

                                                          If appears we have two ships passing in the night. One not daring to call out. And one not necessarily knowing to call out.

                                                          If you fear being hurt so much that you can't reach out, I can understand that. But won't the loneliness and wondering be just as painful?

                                                          P.S. The colorful metaphors pretty much go straight over my head. I'm Alice in your Wonderland. You're pondering unicorns while I ponder Schrödinger's cat.
                                                        • Hmmm... I think I understand the colorful metaphors very clearly. I would not have two years ago. My, I have come a long way since then.

                                                          But I do not live in the forest. I live in a castle. Built by my own hands, far up. I do not watch from the forest, I watch from the window of my castle. I must journey to the forest to visit and to glimpse the unicorns. We simply do not pass time in the same places, except by leisure.

                                                          Perhaps I will be so lucky to befriend one... one day soon.
                                                          • Okay, back to the land of prose. I wrote him and asked if we could do something -- threw out a few ideas. He didn't respond, at least not yet. We'll have to see. At least I haven't given up and I'm reaching out. :)

                                                            Thanks to all of you for your input. It's so important to me to try to understand where an INTJ might be coming from and I've learned a lot from what has been shared.

                                                            I guess that's my main encouragement to everyone. Where things seems mysterious or distant, it's okay to ask about it and sincerely try to learn what (in this case, the ENFP) is being said. If we just leave it at ships passing in the night, we may miss out. I suppose that's why I keep saying I seek to understand where the INTJ is coming from. If we both did this, then we'll find out what happens when these two actually make the effort to connect.
                                                            • you know you'll either have to share your castle with this someone or live in the forest...

                                                              Besides, I grew up on a farm... do you have any idea what it costs to feed a unicorn??? December corn closed at $3.46 / bu yesterday.
                                                              • Hey, I grew up on one, too. Rice, Soybeans, and cotton. Rode Rodeo 30 miles away in the hills (couldn't plant on their land, but the grass looked greener on the other side) on the weekends, 'coz cowboys were just kewler (and the ladies at the barn dances afterwards REALLY turned me on.

                                                                Think I'd really like to ride Unicorns, now, though. I am a city boy now, and make enough money. I can afford feeding one. :o)
                                                                • You had time for rodeo? I had to get up and feed a few thousand pigs before school. Then, come home and help harvest until 12 or so. 7 days a weeks... except we usually took Sunday morning off for church.

                                                                  ... yeah... when I was a kid we walked to school. 8 miles. in the snow. into the wind. up hill. both ways...

                                                                  so I went to school and trained as an EE... so I can live in the city and drive to the farm to help with the harvest. First thing I remember of my dad is him teaching me to drive a tractor... 'cept now they don't trust me (being a city slicker and all) so I get stuck with the crap jobs. Saturday when I left they replaced me on the grain cart with my 11 year old niece!!!
                                                                • I just don't know about keeping a unicorn in a castle. Seems messy. Especially if they can't be wrangled. In addition, I don't know what Thai and Indian food trade for on the board but its gotta be more than corn.

                                                                  If yur keep'em in the forest, you'll probably need a fence. I hate diggin holes and setting posts... plus you gotta walk the fence every so often.

                                                                  Never was much for rodeo. Always preferred a 4-wheeler to a hay-burner (horse).
                                                                  • Oh, I would NEVER imprison a Unicorn. I would BEFRIEND her. She would LET me ride because she wanted too. The door of my castle would simply be left open for HER. When I wanted to ride, I would simply walk down to the forest. Maybe stay a night, or two. Behaving in an elegant manner is as important to me here as writing an elegant proof that reveals a fundamental mathematical truth.

                                                                    This would not have been true for me 10 years ago. Not even two years ago. But right now, it is.

                                                                    I loved the Rodeo. Like hang gliding and bunji jumping, it is dangerous, exhilerating, and it is a by myself sport. AND the chics get to see it, they dig it, and the barn dances were ALWAYS much fun afterwards. Especially if you rode. ;oP
                                                                    • ok wyatt, try this on for size. I don't believe you are any more in tune with your feelings than I am. We both understand emotion and empathy but perhaps not as well as others. The difference is that we value it less in our approach to life.

                                                                      I think you believe that feeling is necessary to attract that something which is missing in your life (nothing wrong with that at all). But, I believe you are THINKing about how you should FEEL. As opposed to simply feeling like other types might.

                                                                      I say this because your metaphors seem to be "trying too hard". I wouldn't say this to non-intj's for fear of hurting their feelings, but you seem desperate.

                                                                      I'm curious what the other F types here think of that analysis. Given my general incompetence in social dynamics, I suspect there is a high probability I'm full of aromatic fertilizer.
                                                                      • Hey John!

                                                                        <<ok wyatt, try this on for size. I don't believe you are any more in tune with your feelings than I am. We both understand emotion and empathy but perhaps not as well as others. The difference is that we value it less in our approach to life.>>

                                                                        John, I have absolutely no clue how in tune you are with your feelings. I wouldn't even try to guess. I know when I am in analysis mode, I can come across as QUITE in that mode, and NO ONE sees how I feel, nor how in tune I am with my feelings. I would not even know which of us values feeling more as an approach or not, but you are correct in assuming I value my thinking funcitons more. Simply becuase they are tried and true. I trust them, and they are advanced, and I can weild them efficiently. BUT, I DO value a feeling approach, and much more now than ever before.

                                                                        <<I think you believe that feeling is necessary to attract that something which is missing in your life (nothing wrong with that at all). But, I believe you are THINKing about how you should FEEL. As opposed to simply feeling like other types might.>>

                                                                        It may have started out this way in the beginning, but it is NOT ending up that way. It is not that way now, and has not been for some time. The way that is it is ending up is that I feel I have/am truely developing out an entire other region of my being that was always below the surface, that i was somewhat semi-concious of, but it was always masked and I could never really see it. Like trying to look at the back of your head without mirrors. You know it is there, but you can't see it. Now it is different. I can see it and embrace it as it is happening. And it is wonderful, in all the anger, joy, love, hurt, and every derivitive thereof that flows forth. As far as thinking how I should feel? No. I think. i feel seperately. Then I look for congruence between the two.. overlap on the same issues. Where the congruence fall out, I have to wrestle with which side should carry more weight. And I do not always choose the most rational side anymore. Well, maybe I do, but my rationality has changed. I know the impact of not being happy with myself. Even in the face of overwhelming logic (and this is where my iNtuition also plays a part).

                                                                        <<I say this because your metaphors seem to be "trying too hard". I wouldn't say this to non-intj's for fear of hurting their feelings, but you seem desperate.>>

                                                                        LOL... I do not try with metaphors. They just happen. They are very easy for me, and I am very good with them. I am extremely abstract. So much so, that for most of my life it has been an impedence to my verbal communication. Which I had to work with very hard to over come. I have always found that metaphors, similes and the like can use the english language against itself to easily bridge lost meaning the language by itself would suffer. Even that doesn't get everything. Communication is still lost. So I also rely on ALL senses when I communicate in person... even the subtlties of non-verbals, eye-movements, facial expression, body language. I use it, and I respond to it. Sound, tone, inflection of voice. It is all fair game. And even then communication is lost. Art... a picture paints a thousand words... even more. This is true.

                                                                        Desperate? Sure, at certain times in my life, I am. But not right now. In fact, you seem more desperate for answers than I do right now. I have already found the sources that carry the answers to most of my questions. It is the steady persuit of those answers than calm me. VJ actually played a significant role in that, although she may not know it. Maybe she does. There was a lot that went on behind the scenes that she hasn't seen.

                                                                        <<I'm curious what the other F types here think of that analysis. Given my general incompetence in social dynamics, I suspect there is a high probability I'm full of aromatic fertilizer.>>

                                                                        I don't think you are full of aromatic fertilizer. Actually, your comments, structure, and curiosities remind me of myself 10 years ago. Even though you are older. I think the difference may be other struggles I have had to face, the manner in which I have had to face them, and the choices I made to work on otherwise underdeveloped aspects of myself.

                                                                        Hope that helps.

                                                                        Ciao!
                                                                        • >> you seem more desperate for answers than I do right now.<<

                                                                          An astute observation. I'm not sure "desperate" is the right word but it's a thought provoking one... I have always been like that. Last week I discovered personality types. Next week it will be something different.

                                                                          I read the entire set of encyclopedia's cover to cover before I got to high school. One of my favorite hobbies is clicking the "Random topic" button on wikipedia looking for new information. I suspect you're the same.

                                                                          I would tend to believe you vis a vi feelings. I can see how life experience to force me to evaluate feelings... or it could be that eventually I will simply find it interesting to explore. But, if I (or you) simply find it "interesting to explore feelings", doesn't that still mean we are merely THINKing about them? I have emotions and empathy. I can feel. It's just that I give this very little weight in my decision processes.
                                                                          • <<One of my favorite hobbies is clicking the "Random topic" button on wikipedia looking for new information. I suspect you're the same.>>

                                                                            In a way, yes I am the same. I don’t use the same method. I am more deliberate when seeking information. I have more individual P preferences now than I did 6 years ago, although my overall preference is still very much J, and these are also the processes that I use (Ni, Te, Fi, Se | Ne, Ti, Fe, Si). Although I am quite capable of setting schedules to meet multilayered agendas (complete with contingency planning), I do value the leisurely walk through life quite often, as well. Unlike your random topic button method, I choose to allow myself random experiences with other people or (self or single partnered) projects anymore. It allows me the process of discovery for discovery’s sake, and of things I would not find by myself, and to enjoy what is there that would otherwise be missed on a quest.

                                                                            A lot of this is the process of developing out my Se (extraverted Sensing) function. This is my 4th process, which typically comes alive during mid-life for most people. It is usually experienced in a negative way when first consciously experiencing it. So, this is the process of us leaving our ivory tower, where we have peered at the world, and deliberately getting our hands dirty experiencing those things we have spent years isolating ourselves from.

                                                                            <<I would tend to believe you vis a vi feelings. I can see how life experience to force me to evaluate feelings... or it could be that eventually I will simply find it interesting to explore. But, if I (or you) simply find it "interesting to explore feelings", doesn't that still mean we are merely THINKing about them? I have emotions and empathy. I can feel. It's just that I give this very little weight in my decision processes.>>

                                                                            ….mmmm… I think because giving little weight to it in your decision making processes has (most) always worked for you to date. I do this too when making most types of decisions, only now I consider how I feel about certain things when making those particular decisions. Everything in my life should not be utilitarian, not maximized by logic. There is a quality of life issue, and some feelings that are important just seem to go against the freight of logic. They are not rational, but they are important to me. So, “finding it interesting to explore feelings” may very well cause us to “think” about it, but at least one of us is “experiencing feelings” AND “living the consequences of choosing to act on them or against them” (including the additional feelings they cause). And there is a larger frame of logic around my world (thinking/feeling) which says that this is the most logical solution. To allow myself to emote, to act on those emotions, and to suffer for it or to experience joy from it. It just makes life interesting. The meal is life. Logic and thinking are my main instruments I use to eat that meal. To allow myself the freedom to act on those feelings, for better or worse… well, that is an additional spice in life. Thinking and logic are also primary spices for me, as I derive pleasure from them. I have three needs: Physical (body (health, sensory)), Mental (mind (creative/abstract (right-brain), logical/methodical (left-brained)), Emotional (heart (feeling)). And my Soul encapsulates all three, plus.

                                                                            One last thought. I am active with the emotional anymore, not just passive. And I think that may be a key difference between us. A close friend of mine painted this scenerio for me regarding her perception of what it is like when she uses her feeling functions: “It is as if I were in a darkened room, where I cannot see. And I feel where the warmth is coming from. And I follow it.”

                                                                            For me, the difference is that I can consciously see the fire AND feel the warmth AT THE SAME TIME. And I do not always experience congruence between the two. So, which is playing tricks? My eyesight or my sensory perception. Maybe neither. Maybe both. Maybe one or the other. I just pick which is most important to me, and I may make a mistake. But that is where I gain experience, and grow.
                                                                          • <<One of my favorite hobbies is clicking the "Random topic" button on wikipedia looking for new information. I suspect you're the same.>>

                                                                            In a way, yes I am the same. I don’t use the same method. I am more deliberate when seeking information. I have more individual P preferences now than I did 6 years ago, although my overall preference is still very much J, and these are also the processes that I use (Ni, Te, Fi, Se | Ne, Ti, Fe, Si). Although I am quite capable of setting schedules to meet multilayered agendas (complete with contingency planning), I do value the leisurely walk through life quite often, as well. Unlike your random topic button method, I choose to allow myself random experiences with other people or (self or single partnered) projects anymore. It allows me the process of discovery for discovery’s sake, and of things I would not find by myself, and to enjoy what is there that would otherwise be missed on a quest.

                                                                            A lot of this is the process of developing out my Se (extraverted Sensing) function. This is my 4th process, which typically comes alive during mid-life for most people. It is usually experienced in a negative way when first consciously experiencing it. So, this is the process of us leaving our ivory tower, where we have peered at the world, and deliberately getting our hands dirty experiencing those things we have spent years isolating ourselves from.

                                                                            <<I would tend to believe you vis a vi feelings. I can see how life experience to force me to evaluate feelings... or it could be that eventually I will simply find it interesting to explore. But, if I (or you) simply find it "interesting to explore feelings", doesn't that still mean we are merely THINKing about them? I have emotions and empathy. I can feel. It's just that I give this very little weight in my decision processes.>>

                                                                            ….mmmm… I think because giving little weight to it in your decision making processes has (most) always worked for you to date. I do this too when making most types of decisions, only now I consider how I feel about certain things when making those particular decisions. Everything in my life should not be utilitarian, not maximized by logic. There is a quality of life issue, and some feelings that are important just seem to go against the freight of logic. They are not rational, but they are important to me. So, “finding it interesting to explore feelings” may very well cause us to “think” about it, but at least one of us is “experiencing feelings” AND “living the consequences of choosing to act on them or against them” (including the additional feelings they cause). And there is a larger frame of logic around my world (thinking/feeling) which says that this is the most logical solution. To allow myself to emote, to act on those emotions, and to suffer for it or to experience joy from it. It just makes life interesting. The meal is life. Logic and thinking are my main instruments I use to eat that meal. To allow myself the freedom to act on those feelings, for better or worse… well, that is an additional spice in life. Thinking and logic are also primary spices for me, as I derive pleasure from them. I have three needs: Physical (body (health, sensory)), Mental (mind (creative/abstract (right-brain), logical/methodical (left-brained)), Emotional (heart (feeling)). And my Soul encapsulates all three, plus.

                                                                            One last thought. I am active with the emotional anymore, not just passive. And I think that may be a key difference between us. A close friend of mine painted this scenerio for me regarding her perception of what it is like when she uses her feeling functions: “It is as if I were in a darkened room, where I cannot see. And I feel where the warmth is coming from. And I follow it.”

                                                                            For me, the difference is that I can consciously see the fire AND feel the warmth AT THE SAME TIME. And I do not always experience congruence between the two. So, which is playing tricks? My eyesight or my sensory perception. Maybe neither. Maybe both. Maybe one or the other. I just pick which is most important to me, and I may make a mistake. But that is where I gain experience, and grow.
                                                                            • thank you. very useful. really. but I am certainly not where you are and currently don't have a desire to be. Not really sure whether that is good or bad. may take many months of pondering.

                                                                              >>There is a quality of life issue

                                                                              I retreat to my (2 acre) garden. Or, I retreat to my family. I love children (nieces and nephews... none of my own). Would rather play (silly games) with the children than converse with most adults. Ask my wife what I am and she will say without hestitation "An overgrown child". Seems I have part of my answer here...
                                                                        • Ok wyatt, try this on for size...

                                                                          I'm quite happily married. Perhaps my wife compensates for my feeling side (e.g. I never could understand why she sends out birthday and anniversary cards but they seem important to everyone else...). My choice of a career (software engineering) creates a positive feedback loop reinforcing the already dominate aspects of my personality... resulting in a obsessive, thinking, perfectionist only preserved from some psychosis by my other half. Tolerated for my inept social skills because of my productivity.
                                                        • I'm curious to know what the fear/anxiety is protecting you from. What's good about it? How is it taking care of you? What is the gift in the fear? Ask the feeling what it's doing for you, and really dialogue with it. Develop it as if it were a character in a play. How long have you known this fear/anxiety? When did it first start coming around? How does it see itself? What does its voice sound like? (Is it male or female, breathy or strident?) Does it remind you of anyone you know? What successes does it pride itself on? What are its favorite phrases? Its favorite haunts? Where does it appear in your body?

                                                          Since this fear/anxiety seems to be your main opposition right now, you might as well get to know it at least as well as that unicorn.
                                                          • Wow, Vicky Jo, you just hurt my head. I've deduced you do relationships professionally. Is this kind of dialog typical? I'm assuming it helps some people. I don't mean this negatively... just observing that it is 100% alien (best word I can think of) to me.
                                                            • John,

                                                              Could you please clarify for me? Are you talking about the overall dialogue above between Waylon and me (that went on extensively last Spring)? Or are you referring only to my recent post?

                                                              Either way, could you share what's "alien" about it? Just summarize a little something. That would help me see where I might shed some light.

                                                              I also wonder whether you might care to check with Waylon and see what impact the conversation had on him, if that's what you're referring to? That might help you gauge whether this was a huge waste of time or not.

                                                              How's that sound?

                                                              By the way, as an aside, I feel very gratified by your respectful tone. It's inviting, and I appreciate it, so I want to be sure I acknowledge it.
                                                              • Vicky Jo I was writing concerning your most recent post on this topic. Your advice "I'm curious to know what the fear/anxiety is protecting you from...".

                                                                The actions/questions you suggest seem absolutely bizara/alient to me. For example, "Is it male or female, breathy or strident?" I quite literally cannot make heads or tails of this. Fear to me is merely a reaction to a stimulus (though that doesn't make it any less "real" to me than to you).

                                                                Having said that, it is apparent to me you are a professional. This type of interaction must be useful or else you wouldn't waste time on it. So, why does it work? who does it work on? what are you attempting to elicit? what responses do you typically see?

                                                                Seriously, that one paragraph you wrote was one of the most intellectually intriqueing things I've seen in years.
                                                                • John,

                                                                  It's true that I am a trained and certified life coach, and I am currently undergoing training in Organizational and Relationship Systems Coaching. (Whew!) As a matter of fact, I'm off to catch a plane right now to get the next installment of training.

                                                                  For the record, my INTJ husband went through the same life coaching program at the basic level, courtesy IBM who covered the cost. (And I have to say it really paid off for him! I was proud of him for going through a "touchy-feely" program to begin with, and now he is attending his mother's funeral and bonding with his son, and it is his coaching skills that are holding him in good stead and allowing him to meet the emotional turmoil of that fraught situation head-on instead of avoiding it as he would naturally prefer to do.)

                                                                  (Whew again!)

                                                                  So what were we.....? Oh yes, I remember. You were very respectfully asking me about the curious idea I was proposing above, and noticing that it seemed alien.

                                                                  YES, you're right. It's completely counter-intuitive. Doesn't it seem like the LAST THING you would ever want to do is acknowledge a fear and give it any more power? It's sooooo much more logical to disown it.

                                                                  So see if this makes sense to you. Let's make up that you're afraid of failure. So what do you do? You try not to think about it. You try to put it out of your mind, you pretend failure won't happen to you, you "act like" you're not afraid at all. And then you go and fail. Again and again. Hello, it's failure time again. Sooooo.... what we know is that ignoring it or pretending the fear isn't there Doesn't Work. (How do we know? Because it didn't!)

                                                                  So it's there anyway, this fear of failure. And you're in relationship with it. And it's running your life, whether you want it to or not. So you might as well bring it out on the table and get to know it. Make the relationship conscious.

                                                                  What you might find out is that this fear of failure is trying to protect you. Perhaps it doesn't want you to get hurt. There's a lot of scaaaarrrrryyyyyy things out there that might hurt you, so if it can maintain the status quo then you won't get injured. And maybe it remembers a time when you did get hurt back when you were 11 years old (or something), and it has Never Forgotten. Hmmmmm..... isn't that interesting? This part of you really loves you and is looking out for your best interests! What a useful ally!

                                                                  So now you get real familiar with all its maneuvers, its tricks, its phrases, its timing, etc. And soon you know it so well that you become extremely AWARE when this fear shows up. When it enters the room, you know immediately. And maybe you get in the habit of welcoming it and saying, "Hey there, Fear -- it's okay. I got it handled. You don't have to protect me today." You get to be in conscious relationship with it instead of UNconscious relationship with it. It can't catch you by surprise any more.

                                                                  Maybe someday it will leave you alone. Maybe it Never Will! (In which case, you might as well get comfy with it since it's decided to partner with you.)

                                                                  By getting conscious about it, you are more equipped to make educated choices about how to confront it. You might cut a deal with it, or negotiate an agreement. Maybe you'll send it on vacation to Maui while you interview for the CEO position at that flashy start-up company you fancy. Regardless, your awareness ensures it won't run your life in the background and surprise you over and over and over again. (Like, duh!)

                                                                  Two quotes for you:

                                                                  1) We are lived by our unconscious. -Groddeck

                                                                  2) We cannot change anything unless we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses. -C.G. Jung

                                                                  The second quote in particular is familiar to coaches. I'm sure you know that old saying, "What you resist, persists." Well, that's what Jung's talking about. It's true for our insides as well as our outsides!

                                                                  If you suppose you can outsmart, outwit, out-endure something that's running you at the unconscious level, you are likely to make a fool of yourself. (That's the other option.) And sometimes you have to do that 8 or 12 times before you decide to try something counter-intuitive like I'm suggesting.

                                                                  There are variations on this approach, but I daresay that gives you the general idea.

                                                                  So.... how does your head feel now? Is it better, or do you just want to find a bottle of aspirin?? ;-D
                                                                  • Thank you. Sincerely. Yes, probably need my aspirin. Good luck at the conference.

                                                                    Some thoughts...
                                                                    1) you could have seriously damaged your husband with that life coaching program. Back in high school, they made the whole class go to a retreat. Took me roughly 5 minutes to conclude it was BS. Another 15 minutes to expound to classmates and facilitators the obvious reasons it was BS. Another 2 or 3 minutes to draw an expulsion (i.e back to the farm to work for the day). "Retreats" remain pretty much the only thing I might admit to being fearful of...

                                                                    2) I'm not certain it is correct to say an intj avoids confronting emotion. It seems more that I discard it as being irrelevant or untrustworthy. Or that I place my emphasis (trust) elsewhere.

                                                                    3) Would your contra-intuitive approach work with your husband? Would you take a different approach with him? I understand your reasoning. Can see that it might help some people. But,personally, I perceive you are taking a thing (a system, a process... e.g. fear of something) and endowing it with human-like qualities. Seems less efficient than simply addressing it directly. OTOH, I guess the assumption is that attempting to address it directly has already failed...

                                                                    4) It seems that to an intj "fear of failure" (using your example) is "irrational". It would indicate my otherwise orderly and logical mind had blew a gasket. I would expect my response (worst case) to be an over-compensating obsessive compulsion to observe, understand and counteract the irrational process.

                                                                    5) I don't believe in the unconscious (except so far as it is a physical condition of the brain... sorry Freud...). I tend to believe the brain is just a very complex deterministic biomachine. An ultimate computer program if you will.
                                                                    • Well, had coffee with Mr. INTJ last night. Was so utterly terriffic. My heart was slamming in my chest when I walked up to meet him and I thought for sure he could see it about to leap out of my chest. I managed, as always, to get a few sentences out to him and hoped they approached coherent.

                                                                      We walked around, talked about our families, sex, ideas on marriage and soulmates, ex's, work, shattered dreams, grief, and Schnauzers, laughed our faces off, talked in really bad Pink Panther French accents, AND got serenaded by a homeless guy who asked for change -- he said "This one's for your lady" and sang to me.

                                                                      But, I didn't get my ENFP butt to ask him any of the tough questions. I didn't jump on him and start kissing him (only in my head). At this point I can only wonder what he thinks or feels.

                                                                      We chatted for 3 hours. There was no dull part of the conversation. I keep wondering if I'll stop feeling so giddy around him or if we'll run out of things to say, but neither looks like it will happen.

                                                                      So be encouraged, INTJ's. You may have an ENFP running around feeling this crazy about you somewhere. :)
                                                                    • I will lead my comments with *** so you may distinguish them.

                                                                      Thank you. Sincerely. Yes, probably need my aspirin. Good luck at the conference.

                                                                      *** Thank you. This is not a conference, but a training. I also was lucky (not!) to experience ample trickster extraverted Thinking in my travels today since my INTJ husband sent me to the wrong hotel with a useless credit card and checks from an empty bank account. But that's another story. ;-)

                                                                      Some thoughts...
                                                                      1) you could have seriously damaged your husband with that life coaching program.

                                                                      *** I did not damage him. I took the program myself, and each month he saw me come home a different person. At some point it must have crossed his mind that whatever I was smoking there, he wanted to try smoking it too. I *never* would have pushed this program on him, knowing what was involved. And I am sooooo proud he went through it. Mind you, he's 55 and has been MBTI-qualified for about 12 years now. So he has quite a wealth of experience with personality differences. It's not like he was unprepared. I briefed him thoroughly, so he knew what he was stepping into. I remember his coming home with anecdotes about a fellow classmate who was talked into going by his ENFJ wife. The guy had I_TJ preferences, and my husband said he was completely resistant to submitting to the process. Fought it tooth-and-nail all the way. My husband felt kinda sorry for him. (I think that was fantastic learning for him, on TOP of the incredible learning he got from the program. Stretched him to the max.)

                                                                      Back in high school, they made the whole class go to a retreat. Took me roughly 5 minutes to conclude it was BS. Another 15 minutes to expound to classmates and facilitators the obvious reasons it was BS. Another 2 or 3 minutes to draw an expulsion (i.e back to the farm to work for the day). "Retreats" remain pretty much the only thing I might admit to being fearful of...

                                                                      *** Isn't that interesting? Why don't you just "get over it"?? ;-)
                                                                      (~hoping subtle point was made~)

                                                                      2) I'm not certain it is correct to say an intj avoids confronting emotion. It seems more that I discard it as being irrelevant or untrustworthy. Or that I place my emphasis (trust) elsewhere.

                                                                      *** Yes, that sounds right to me. What the INTJ does is avoid situations where they know in advance there will be a lot of emotional expression, such as a funeral. It probably ranks right up there with.... touchy-feely retreats.

                                                                      3) Would your contra-intuitive approach work with your husband? Would you take a different approach with him? I understand your reasoning. Can see that it might help some people. But,personally, I perceive you are taking a thing (a system, a process... e.g. fear of something) and endowing it with human-like qualities. Seems less efficient than simply addressing it directly. OTOH, I guess the assumption is that attempting to address it directly has already failed...

                                                                      *** Absolutely I would use this with my husband. We did a little prep work before he went off to the funeral, in fact. See, the idea is to DISSOCIATE the fear. That's the only way to realize the fear is NOT YOU. And one of the ways to dissociate it is by giving it form.

                                                                      *** Now, everyone images somewhat. Perhaps you have a vision of how you want a software program to work, or how a vacation should unfold. Maybe you worry (which is a form of negative visioning), and conjure up images of car crashes or children drowning -- whatever people worry about. These are all forms of visioning. So, in similar fashion, we can envision this "part" of you.

                                                                      *** Now that sounds like a miracle maybe, but hey it's done all the time -- in fact, it's so common that cartoonists draw it all the time. You know the one -- an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. We *all* know what that feels like. We are familiar with that experience. We feel "torn," or "voices" talk to us in our head.

                                                                      *** So.... it's helpful to let that "failure" energy we described crystallize into a symbol. You could try that right now with your dread of retreats. Close your eyes and get in touch with that experience. Feel the energy of that. Locate it in your body perhaps. Then let an image form that expresses how you feel/felt. Once the image forms, you can dialogue with it. (I'm sure you know you can talk to anything in your imagination.) Tell it how you feel -- ask it for advice. Try it!

                                                                      *** Once it has solidified to that extent, by definition you are in conscious relationship with it.

                                                                      *** Then do it again with some program you're working on. Let that image form in your mind, and then dialogue with it. Ask it why it's giving you fits, or whether it's willing to run the way you want it to. Ask it what its name is. Make it your friend, your pet, and see how much easier it becomes to work with.

                                                                      *** (As a dominant introverted iNtuiting type, you're doing this anyway y'know..... So why not do it consciously and with a little sophistication?)

                                                                      4) It seems that to an intj "fear of failure" (using your example) is "irrational". It would indicate my otherwise orderly and logical mind had blew a gasket. I would expect my response (worst case) to be an over-compensating obsessive compulsion to observe, understand and counteract the irrational process.

                                                                      *** Right. Lots of pathological labels there. And being a "normal" INTJ (whatever that is), you would attempt to "surgically remove" this malfunctioning aspect of yourself. Except you can't. And it keeps turning up. It gets downright annoying. Hey, it's stalking you! So.... what can you do when it just won't go away?

                                                                      5) I don't believe in the unconscious (except so far as it is a physical condition of the brain... sorry Freud...). I tend to believe the brain is just a very complex deterministic biomachine. An ultimate computer program if you will.

                                                                      *** LOL. A typical INTJ conceit. I get it -- I understand. Except I think the unconscious is an aspect of the brain. So what's the best way to re-program this computer and get past the fear of retreats....? You tell me. How would you do it?

                                                                      *** Let's imagine you work for me, I'm your manager. Today I let you know we've scheduled a teambuilding retreat two weeks from now. Attendance is mandatory. And that fear starts to burble up inside you. How will you respond to that fear?

                                                                      *** ;-D
                                                                      • Your comments intrigue me (i.e. you pushed my button).

                                                                        The comment about your husband/retreats was intended to be somewhat humorous. Apparently I need to work on that.

                                                                        Let me preface by saying I am curious about what makes me (or wyatt/r21left/your husband) different from the prototypical intj and what qualities we consistently share

                                                                        Respectfully, I think one of our analysis’s of the intj is off slightly. You no doubt use your husband as the prototype while I use myself (and now, to a degree, wyatt).

                                                                        Example, I come from a small (pop 300) town… steady flow of funerals and other "social" events. I perceive them as largely wasting time but realize rituals are very important to others, so I indulge them.

                                                                        I really can’t see any intj having fear since confidence seems to be the hallmark of the personality type. I conclude that an issue with funerals may be something unique to your husband or that my small town upbringing makes me the unique one.

                                                                        >> So.... what can you do when it just won't go away? <<
                                                                        I think your analysis of me is off here. I've never experienced not being able to "fix" myself (with enough concerted effort). Truly and honestly. I expect wyatt, your husband, etc. to be exactly the same (but am probably wrong).

                                                                        <<Today I let you know we've scheduled a teambuilding retreat two weeks from now.?<<

                                                                        Happens often (meetings prompt a similar response). Not a fear of "retreats". I perceive them as a waste of time. So I avoid them. Sometimes I'm indulged with an exception (because of my abilities). Alternately, I take a vacation day and work in my garden
                                                                        (I'm too moral to claim a sick day). Finally, if forced to attend, I take a computer book or magazine (I keep a stock at my desk) so at least I have something productive to do. Not joking here. This is EXACTLY my approach. Has been for years. Problem fixed...

                                                                        What is REALLY funny... is I'm here because the others were "signed up" for a leadership seminar. 6 weeks of wasted half-days. I read the course materials. I believe I get more in 5 minutes of reading than they got in 4 hours of touchy feely.

                                                                        One day they came back with a Keirsey temperament sorter and said as one... this is you... the "Mastermind". It intriques me. Here I am.

                                                                        The thing you call "unconscious", I perceive as collections of neurons firing in parallel, presenting multiple interpretations of various stimuli… which the higher functions select among. Basically a parallel processing computer as opposed to a sequential one. The brain is a physical system… it simply can NOT have some mystical “unconscious”.
                                                                        • Vicki Jo had inquired about the nature of the fear with Mr. INTJ. It's really not something I want to dialogue with, but I would suppose it's about protecting me from harm, from rejection.

                                                                          I pushed through any of that on Wednesday night. I decided that for better or worse I would be myself. I would not bow down to fear and negative prediction of the future. And for once in my life I would find out what would happen if I remained emotionally present in a series of important moments.

                                                                          I think I envisioned being a warrior. Someone like Eowyn in Lords of the Rings. I choose to step out of fear based thinking and living. I actually have a ring on my right hand that says "Fear not." It's not an easy battle, but why should it be? I think character can be forged in the fires of adversity.

                                                                          All this to say, think there is some sort of exchange that occurs between Mr. INTJ and I when we interract. I realized how chaotic I can feel inside as an ENFP and how his presence, and when he shares things like his methods for mowing the lawn or learning an instrument, can help me feel grounded and settle down. It's calming and I appreciate it so much. I think he seems so amused when I'm telling stories and waving my hands all over the place, as if he is somewhat energized by my quirky way of experiencing people and waht I see as the adventures of the day. It's funny because he stopped himself a few times when he was about to share how his process for doing something (ala lawn mowing) and said "Don't let me get started on that. . ." as if he thought that was boring to me. I wanted to say, no keep going, I've had a stressful day, I want to hear all about that and your adorable way of describing it so indepth. :)

                                                                          I continue to think the challenge and reward is to delight in someone so different who is so endearing to you. I came to believe the goal was to just be myself, an ENFP with her battle scars but with her courage summoned around her to be with him. And all I wanted from him was to be himself, which still fascinates and delights me and which he's going to do anyway, sending my heart thudding in my chest.

                                                                          Oh, and the fear left as soon as I locked eyes with him and said, "Hi, sorry I'm a little late." :)
                                                                          • Unsu...
                                                                             
                                                                            Sounds delightful... : )

                                                                            I think it's fair to say all of us are rooting for you in your journey with Mr. INTJ!
                                                                            • Thanks for your support. It's helpful because there are still many obstacles in the quest.

                                                                              I talked to my INFJ best friend (a guy) today. Asked him why he thinks there's so much fuss about the idea of the INTJ-ENFP pairing. He said: "Because it's so controversial." :)

                                                                              I also think there is a wildness to both an INTJ and an ENFP. Plenty of spark built into the pair. I couldn't stand to be bored and I don't see that happening.

                                                                              I'm actually more concerned that I might lose my mind from not knowing about his feelings or have a heart attack from being near him than I am about being bored. :)
                                                                        • Frantic backpedaling seems in order.

                                                                          First of all, personality type frameworks lie in the middle ground on a spectrum between supposing everybody is entirely different, and supposing everybody is exactly the same. Type maps out specific points of similarity and difference. I, personally, rely on three separate models of psychological type that address the most common domains of psychology: the affective, the conative, and the cognitive.

                                                                          Your story frankly horrifies me. I have issues with anybody IMPOSING their idea of what type anyone might be onto another person. I consider that act violative and unethical. At minimum, you are entitled to a say about who you are and who you are not. You have the inalienable right to be educated about any psychological model and permitted free choice in deciding what suits you.

                                                                          I'm wanting to frantically backpedal from this conversation until you have a sense of "ownership" about what type dynamics reflect and do not reflect you.

                                                                          For the record, my past five clients (all of whom were quite conversant on the topic of type before hiring me) turned out to be mis-typed. Not by a long shot, but hey all it takes is one letter to make a *world* of difference. And they had free choice, when you weren't given.

                                                                          I know someone via a Yahoo Groups email list who was likewise "told" by a friend(s) she has preferences for INFJ, and I guarantee you she has prefs for ENFJ. And she's clueless about what all of that means, and there's no tellin' her -- she just took what her friends said at face value.

                                                                          I would be gratified if you were to let your fellow employees know that you appreciate their interest in who you are, and their wanting to be enthusiastically "helpful" in what they shared with you, but to truly honor the spirit of type and diversity, the appropriate process REQUIRES that you select your own best-fit pattern (assuming you care to embrace the model and choose any pattern AT ALL!). If a person leading that retreat facilitated their exploration of type, appeal to them for ethical intervention if need be. You are also at liberty to check out www.MBTI.org for ethical guidelines about type, print that out, and post it in clear view of those who happened to just "step over" that minor detail (ha!) in *telling* you your best-fit type pattern. (Certainly these fellow employees do not likely qualify as type experts, and I daresay they were not granted express permission by you to "analyze" you!)

                                                                          I apologize for unknowingly colluding with their imposition. Had I realized, I would have framed this conversation quite differently. No wonder you object to what I say! No wonder your buttons are being pushed! My apologies that you experienced this unethical application of the type model. This infraction contradicts everything that genuinely professional type users stand for.
                                                                          • >>Your story frankly horrifies me.

                                                                            You misunderstand. I knew my MBTI type. The typical intj profile description is very eerie in its description of me. As if I wrote it myself. Beyond any reasonable doubt at all. None of the other types even remotely evoke this response.

                                                                            Keirsey temperament sorter was new to me. But trust me.. The last thing I ever do is simply accept someone else's analysis. I most closely fit the mastermind type (with an exceedingly high level of confidence).

                                                                            Previously, I just said "personality type... touchy feely crap/not useful/not interesting". The fact that my coworkers pegged me so unanimously caused me to re-evaluate. I am somewhat disappointed you were not able to reach the same conclusion (re my type).

                                                                            Which brings me to what I am really interested in...

                                                                            1) what correlation is there in the general population between their personality type (however that is defined) and their expected behavior. E.g. my personality type very closely anticipates my responses. Is this typical or atypical?
                                                                            2) can I effectively use knowledge of other people's personality types.

                                                                            I had expected the intj to be the most consistent of the types. But, based on your husband, wyatt, and others, it appears there is considerably more variability than I thought. I assume it is worse for the non-rational types. The lack of correlation is causing me to gravitate back to my original hypothesis (i.e. touchy feely crap/not useful/but NOW somewhat interesting).

                                                                            I don't believe the types are useful in predicting the success of relationships. They may be able to facilitate smoother relationships in the work place. May be helpful in understanding yourself or understanding others but probably susceptible to misinterpretation.
                                                                            • At this point the discussion goes in about 900 different directions, and I shan't be able to keep up. :-(

                                                                              We do know that psychological types are not a good *predictor* of behavior, as if it were a divining rod or crystal ball -- with certain exceptions. And those exceptions require understanding the model. But there's a little bit of Hawthorne Effect with type: knowing one's type increases the likelihood that a person will NOT behave according to their type. As the saying goes, "When you know who you are, you're freer to be who you're not."

                                                                              Regarding your own pattern, it is foolhardy at best to type someone via email. However, if I DID agree with the likelihood of their being right, it is still unethical to impose a type on anyone without their consent. Your journey of type understanding is your own, and you take it according to your own conscience, time, and circumstances. No one can make those choices for you, and people should not TRY to make those choices for you.

                                                                              The thing to know about type is that we all have *tendencies*. In your case, it seems your tendency is to honor Thinking, and to dismiss Feeling as being unnecessary, or unneeded, or undesirable. Sort of like, "why can't the world operate without *that* nasty habit?" The metaphor I use is "taking it off the table." In the case of an INTJ, they like to have Thinking ON the table, and Feeling OFF the table. And then they try to go and live their life that way, as if Feeling weren't on the table -- even though it still is, no matter how hard they try to push it off.

                                                                              So that function ends up being an achilles heel. Because you don't think it's important to "take care of other people's feelings," those other people will get revenge. They will make sure you don't get the next promotion, or the last piece of candy, or the right sandwich in your takeout bag. And you will tear your hair out wondering why everybody doesn't put their nose down and do their job in a logical, rational fashion. What the heck is going on? Why isn't the world running by "your rules"?? (Did that doggone Feeling get back on the table again when my back was turned??)

                                                                              *Using* personality types is about recognizing where others are "coming from," and meeting them at their view of the world to the extent one can. So.... I could make you "wrong" for being different from me -- OR -- I can acknowledge your strengths and learn from you. (In turn, I hope you will acknowledge my strengths and learn from me, or at least let yourself be influenced.)

                                                                              What does that look like? Hm, it might look like shifting your language to match the person you are interacting with. So if you speak with another Theorist, you will honor knowledge, mastery, competence. With a Stabilizer, you will honor security and safety. With an Improviser, you will honor having an impact, being graceful and impressive, being flexible. WIth a Catalyst, you will honor having a unique identity, a need for meaning, and the importance of relationships. It's about appreciating differences; it's about fully honoring diversity. That means you don't reject "touchy-feely" any more than you reject a handicapped person, an African-American, a homosexual. You treat it with the same respect and dignity that you have learned to treat other people with, even when they are vastly different from you.

                                                                              AND you work on yourself to integrate it into your own life so you don't have such allergic reactions to that "thing" anymore. And all of that is your own work.

                                                                              And that is where you begin. It's a lot of work -- it's life-transforming -- it requires courage and curiosity and conscience and believing in the fundamental idea that people have different gifts and diversity needs to be honored. It's not easy. (But it beats the alternative.)

                                                                              Bon voyage!
                                                                              • Unsu...
                                                                                 
                                                                                Is the INTJ's discounting of Feeling offensive to others because they expect compassion over dispassion, and the absence thereof erroneously implies hostility?

                                                                                In other words, is it expecting too much for people to know when we're simply being serious versus when we're expressing impatience/annoyance? Granted, the two can be easily mistaken.
                                                                                • Those feel like different questions to me.

                                                                                  There is a problem with expecting others to appreciate what WE appreciate and honor what WE honor. So yes, it's possible INTJs get a bad rap from people who want to tell INTJs how they *should* be.

                                                                                  On the other hand, INTJs have to give up the idea that Feeling consciousness will just go away if they ignore it long enough.

                                                                                  It won't go away any more than Thinking will go away if I ignore it long enough. Sooner or later I'm going to have to set a boundary, make a decision, plan a trip, bank a check, something. Imagine the shambles somebody's life would be in to sidestep all the Thinking requirements of living. YIKES. Not to say I have to be *brilliant* at it, but it cannot be avoided.

                                                                                  So, similarly, Feeling won't go away either (even though it's not as appreciated in our American culture). It's there. And all you have to do is ignore other people's feelings for a little while before it will bite you in the butt, just like my bounced check will bite mine.

                                                                                  If you're looking for some kind of "rule" for living, there's only one I can think of: honor diversity. The back-up rule would be Stephen Covey's principle: Seek first to understand, THEN to be understood. If you can FULLY appreciate another person's need for Feeling (rather than trying to change them or deprive them of it), the more likely they are to extend the same courtesy to you and allow your need for Thinking to flourish.

                                                                                  Beyond that, I can only work with specific examples, because every situation and every personality combination is different.
                                                                                • >>Is the INTJ's discounting of Feeling offensive<<

                                                                                  I think they find it offensive or worse...

                                                                                  [commence social experiment]

                                                                                  I grew up on a farm. I had a dog. I named it "Dog" (what does a dog care what it's named?) Dog took to killing the chickens. Dad said to get rid of Dog. I did. We got a new dog. I named it "Dog" (what does a dog care what it's named?)

                                                                                  Now, the feelers out there are going to be convinced I'm a psychopath. Or that my father inflicted emotional trauma on me. Or that I'm a cruel, heartless, cold, b*stard.

                                                                                  Did I like to do it? No. A new dog costs money, has to be vaccinated, takes time to train. Plus, believe it or not, I love dogs; especially my Dog. But I had no trouble accepting the logic of it.

                                                                                  [end social experiment]

                                                                                  Let the analysis begin...

                                                                                  Course this could be a farm boy thing... I _know_ what inevitably occurs to the cows, pigs and chickens we raise When the PETA people came round, I said if they could convince Dog to be a pure vegitarian, then I'd become one too...



                                                                                  • Here's what I notice I want from you. What I want is for you to say you had "Dog." Circumstances required you "get rid of Dog."

                                                                                    You did the logical thing: you got rid of Dog.

                                                                                    AND....

                                                                                    it hurt like hell. You didn't like it. You miss Dog.

                                                                                    Would you do it the same way if you had to do it again?

                                                                                    I dunno. Maybe you would.

                                                                                    The ONLY thing I object to in your description is what *could* be the one-sidedness of it. That's the "cruel, heartless, cold b*stard" part."

                                                                                    All I want is for you to acknowledge you have Feelings, EVEN IF they don't run your life.

                                                                                    (okay, all I want for you is to become an INFJ and think like me and do things the way I do, BUT -- BARRING that, I can *settle* for knowing you have genuine Feelings about Dog.)

                                                                                    Jung's theory of individuation is about overcoming our one-sidedness and embracing wholeness.

                                                                                    From my side, since I prefer Feeling, that may look like me conceding you have made a logical point in an argument while I am feeling hurt and crying and railing at your cruelty or the cruelty of the world. Just that one concession goes a long way toward embracing wholeness and allows you to be honored in the relationship. Dya follow?

                                                                                    I won't call you "psychotic" and you don't call me a "hysteric." We get to have our primary processes AND we concede we have secondary processes that deserve to be on the table as well.
                                                                                    • >> it hurt like hell. You didn't like it. You miss Dog.

                                                                                      Don't think me heartless. Yeah, I felt bad the dog took to killing chickens and had to be shot. I regretted having to do it but certainly not traumatic in the least. I miss the dog but equally resent it inconveniencing me with having to train a new dog. Growing up on a farm one takes a different perspective on animals. I love them but accept the cycle of life.

                                                                                      Anticipating the feedback from pet lovers. Sorry folks. On the savanna, the gazelle awakes knowing it must outrun the fastest lion or die. The lion knowns it must outrun the slowest gazelle or starve. Peta thinks they can get lions and tigers and bears to eat tofu... but I digress...
                                                                              • >> At this point the discussion goes in about 900 different directions, and I shan't be able to keep up.<<
                                                                                I would like to argue. It's in my nature. However, in this particular case, I have to concede your position. A great deal to think about. Well stated. I need time to digest it all.
                                                                                • I simply don't have time to write up a full course on understanding personality types on Tribe. I offer self-discovery sessions as part of my business (info on my website), I have a CD available, I am developing some workbooks, I have some free articles on my website, I recommend a number of excellent books (mostly those in the "Understanding Yourself and Others" series from 16types.com), which are EXCELLENT. I also recommend the Interstrength Associate MBTI qualifying program, which will introduce you to the same models I use in my work. I am happy to discuss what I can, but truthfully it's already intruding on my enjoying an absolutely gorgeous October day and return my 17 overdue library books. =8-O
                                                                      • Anyway... back to the original topic (assuming you are interested) and assuming I am intj.

                                                                        >>Why don't you just "get over it"??
                                                                        Why don’t they stop wasting my time??

                                                                        I don't FEAR meetings/retreats/team building exercises. They ANNOY me as wastes of time. The larger the group, the more likely the other "non-productive" personality types will monopolize the event -discussing feelings, small talk, etc.

                                                                        I got things to DO people! Sh*t or get off the pot!!

                                                                        I resolve the situation by taking a book, magazine, or laptop. I am happy because I am productive and can periodically communicate when they actually need something. They are happy because I observe their social ritual (unproductive though it may be).

                                                                        I’m very good in small groups where I can control the situation and keep things focused.

                                                                        >> ..Then do it again with some program you're working on. Let that image form in your mind,

                                                                        I do this all the time. In my mind, I can see a million lines of code, hundreds of modules and subsystems --- as a working thing. I can effortlessly manipulate it. View it from different perspectives. Change it. I simultaneously perceive it on many levels… a system, a class, C# code, microprocessor instructions, electrons on a semiconductor substrate, Maxwell’s laws controlling the interaction of electromagnetic fields...

                                                                        >>and then dialogue with it
                                                                        Uuuhhh, tried that. It’s a THING. Non-verbal. A finite state automata. A deterministic machine (ignoring quantum effects). It obviously canNOT respond.

                                                                        Nothing I have ever attempted to talk to in mind has EVER talked back. If they did, I would consider having myself committed.

                                                                        I think this is why I found your suggestions so alien.

                                                                        In my mind, I tend to treat everything and everyone (including myself) like a computer program (something to be analyzed, studied, understood, controlled). I gather other types dislike having this done. Get over it. It is my stock in trade. Usually I'm polite enough to not say outright this is how I view people but I've discovered that a number of sensitive people have deduced this is what is going on.
                                                                        • Okay, I hear that you don't like my use of the term "fear." That's fine -- it's not important. What that word is intended to capture is that feeling of "oh no not that." You can call that "annoyances," or "resistance," or "irritation" -- whatever works for you. The point is, you want to take those experience off the table because they come at you in a place where you do NOT feel competent, graceful, engaged.

                                                                          So you undermine that in every way you can get away with -- whether that's not going, putting it down, dismissing its importance.

                                                                          You write, >>I do this all the time. In my mind, I can see a million lines of code, hundreds of modules and subsystems --- as a working thing. I can effortlessly manipulate it. View it from different perspectives. Change it. I simultaneously perceive it on many levels… a system, a class, C# code, microprocessor instructions, electrons on a semiconductor substrate, Maxwell’s laws controlling the interaction of electromagnetic fields... <<

                                                                          And I suspect those things are "talking" to you all the time. Some of the code is saying, "hey, fix me! you got me wrong!" or "pick me! pick me! I've got it right!"

                                                                          Now it sounds stupid to read it written like that, because I don't know what "channel" these images are communicating with you. It may be a "feeling," it may be kinesthetic, I dunno. But you CAN give those images "voices." It's not hard to do! And by giving voice to these images, you make those communications slightly more "concrete" than the "feeling" or "knowing" way of communicating. And this CAN be enlightening -- it brings more awareness and makes it more conscious. My husband has found incredible value from dialoguing with his images! I spent the weekend with a roomful of people dialoguing to "parts" of themselves -- maybe the part of them that's 5 years old, 15 years old. I met the side of a woman who's a Shakespearean Lapdancer, a Mother Teresa Dominatrix, Harmony, Good Girls, Commando Woman, the Surfer Dude. We all have these parts within us -- whether they are memories, or roles we play, or fantasies we have. We're not accustomed to talking to THEM so much, but these images talk to US all the time.

                                                                          Perhaps as you consider your next vacation, an image of Tahiti comes to mind, and it says, "Come to meeeeeeee......" And after talking with the wife, an image of Kansas comes to mind. And Kansas is a sourpuss: "Sure, vacation here -- feel the humidity, the mosquitoes, the boring farms and bovine mentality." These images are communicating with you all the time.

                                                                          Chances are, even reading this, you hear a "voice" in your head saying these words aloud to you, and you have some image in your mind of what I "look" like. You aren't looking at me, of course -- it's some image you have, and some voice you made up.

                                                                          This is the way your head works (especially if INTJ is your best-fit pattern), so you might as well get facile at communicating with it.
                                                                          • >>And I suspect those things are "talking" to you all the time. Some of the code is saying, "hey, fix me! you got me wrong!" or "pick me! pick me! I've got it right!" >>

                                                                            Perhaps the sticking point is the word talk. What I sense is non-verbal. It does not talk. I perceive it, control it. I am holding a ball in my hand now. In my mind I see what will happen if I throw it, squeeze it, bounce it. The one think I cannot do is talk to it.

                                                                            Remember the sentence you wrote "Is it male or female, breathy or strident? " It can't have these qualities. It is not a being. Does not possess emotion. Picture a car in you mind. Does it "talk" to you? Mine does not.

                                                                            >>Chances are, even reading this, you hear a "voice" in your head saying these words aloud to you

                                                                            Yes I do. And I have a mental picture of you. But I can not "talk" to you in my head.

                                                                            Another thing. The computer program is different. Much different. It is in a different part of my head. It is difficult to take the thing in my head and translate it to words. This is the part of my brain I prefer to approach the world with (not the verbal part).



                                                                            • Interesting. When I read your posts, I "hear" a masculine voice. It seems you would hear my voice as a feminine one, if you thought about it. Perhaps you're uncomfortable with any idea that you "hear voices." (Everybody in our culture knows that's "crazy," after all. ;-D)

                                                                              Do you ever hear your wife's voice in your head reminding you to bring home some milk, or take out the trash? ;-D

                                                                              I do have an inner image of my car -- it's still my car, but I see it from the side (not from above or the front or back), and I have this sense I need to take it easy with her (it's female). Don't push her too hard, because she's getting old. But she loves me, and does her best to take care of me. We've been through a lot together. She would appreciate a bath. She would like the new windshield wipers installed that I bought for her. She tries not to be too needy, but there are some minimum standards that can't be overlooked after all. If I take care of her, she'll take care of me -- that's the deal we've made. (I am now verbalizing what I *know* about my car and our relationship with one another. It brings me more awareness of what needs to happen there.)

                                                                              Certainly it is a challenge to translate the part of your head that images into pictures. You have no idea how well I understand. After all, this is the iNtuiting part of you -- not the Thinking part. It's probably not a chatterbox.

                                                                              I'm just saying that if you stay with those images, many additional sensory qualities can attach to them and make them more "real." This can be very helpful to working with the "inner image."
                                                                              • I've kind of reached the point where I just have to accept that you process things significantly different than I do.

                                                                                I feel your "verbalizing" results in a loss of precision. They become less real, not more so. For example, you can try all you want to verbalize the value "pi" but the picture in my mind it still better.

                                                                                I can accept that some people find value in it. I need to continue to explore other people to figure out why.
                                                                                • Actually, that's perfect! Verbalizing is DOES result in loss of precision.

                                                                                  (Similarly, verbalizing feelings is equally imprecise!)

                                                                                  The reason to verbalize "pi" is so you can get better awareness of it, and perhaps bring it out in the world where we can work with it.

                                                                                  Let's say you have a model in your head about how your relationship should be. Maybe in your mind you "see" the husband as "higher" than the wife. Don't know why that is, just is. And your wife just walked out on you and went home to mother.

                                                                                  Well, by getting you to draw a picture of your relation and give it expression in the outer world, we can see how it is creating problems for you. Even YOU get to find out what you take for granted.

                                                                                  So then we get to ask whether you want to vision it in a new way. And by visioning a new model, you have the chance of getting your wife back.

                                                                                  Dya see how it works?

                                                                                  Another version has to do with healing. (Lots of people are writing about this topic. I'm sure you've read some of it.)

                                                                                  So let's say you have a tumor. You can draw a picture of what YOU think the tumor looks like. Then you can draw a picture of the tumor as its partly healed. Then you draw a third picture of what it looks like NOT to have that tumor.

                                                                                  Using these three images, a guided image facilitator can have the patient concentrate on those three images slowly morphing into one another -- and this miraculously resutls in healing! It actually does. There are studies and research and stuff coming out of the medical community about some amazing recoveries by people who practice this method.

                                                                                  If you want to try it sometime, the next time you have a headache, try it out for yourself. Draw three pictures, and then close your eyes and imagine moving through the three of them over and over again. See what happens.

                                                                                  So the picture or description of the headache may not be precise, but we can't work with inner images until they are made manifest in the outer world in some way. That's all I'm talking about.

                                                                                  Before you tell me what's wrong with that idea, try this one for size. Imagine that I have a picture in my head of you as an incompetent, dog-killing psychopath. (Hey, those come from *your* descriptions. Don't sue me!) Wouldn't you dearly love to replace those pictures with something infinitely more flattering? (Especially if I am married to you, or am your manager??)

                                                                                  So what's the quickest way to get someone to shift their image of you? By logically arguing about how it's wrong? ;-D
                                                                          • Something occurred to me.

                                                                            If you write in English, my mind hears English; thinks English. If you write in German, my mind hears/thinks German. But with the computer program, my mind hears/thinks math/symbols/objects/forms/forces (in neither English nor German).

                                                                            I prefer to use the part part.

                                                                            Do you have a place where you "think" emotions or empathy? I think I do but I think I seldom use it.

                                                                            If I ask you "John has 5 apples, and gives away 2. How many does he have left?". What is in your mind? The thing in my mind is a non-verbal thing, which I then have to translate to English and say "3".
                                                                            • Great noticing!

                                                                              I do not have a place where I *think* emotions or empathy. It doesn't work that way.

                                                                              Thinking is the process that *names* things. Even naming something as emotion or empathy takes one out of that domain.

                                                                              Feelings (for me) are sensations usually accompanied by affect (tears, laughter, etc.).

                                                                              All I can suggest is that you get in touch with a time when you felt really really sad (if you can). WIthout any words, just lean into the sensation. It's a form of energy, a particular level of "vibration." Joyous feelings are at higher, "lighter" levels of vibration while sad feelings are at lower, "heavier" levels of vibration. None are good or bad, they just are.

                                                                              Once you get thoroughly in touch with that feeling, begin to describe it with words. Eventually you will leave the Feeling channel (probably very fast for you) and enter the Thinking channel. The feeling itself becomes a secondary process, while finding the right word for it becomes the primary process now. Chances are you enjoy looking for the right word, while you didn't enjoy feeling the feeling itself -- another sign that you are occupying a different "channel" now.

                                                                              Here's Jung's version of that:
                                                                              "Sensation tells you that there *is* something. Thinking, roughly speaking, tells you *what* it is. Feeling tells you whether it is agreeable or not, to be accepted or rejected. And intuition -- now there is a difficulty. You don't know, ordinarily, how intuition works. ... So my definition of intuition is perception via the unconscious."

                                                                              Combined with the attitudes of introversion and extraversion, altogether Jung identified eight unique cognitive processes -- or gifts -- that people engage in. Each of these processes occupies a different "channel." Maybe a metaphor for that would be a musical instrument with 8 strings. Perhaps you can only play 2 of those strings skillfully. Perhaps you can play 3 skillfully. Perhaps you are only aware of 5 of the strings, and can't figure out where those other sounds come from sometimes.

                                                                              Individuating is about learning to appreciate and develop the ability to play all eight of the strings.
                                                                              • Thank you for all the insights. I feel like I've monopolized a great deal of your time. I do greatly appreciate you taking the time. (and suffering through my use of your husband as an example... my apologies to him).
                                                                                • This seems to me like a developed use of Feeling. If you're faking it, it's impressive. (And it's true that sometimes INTJs do a brilliant job of faking these expressions of Feeling, mostly because they have learned that it bites them in the butt when they do not. AND because INTJs all have what Dr. John Beebe labels "a hidden gentlemanliness," which he attributes to tertiary *introverted* Feeling.)

                                                                                  As far as my husband goes, if I was touchy about using him as an example, I shouldn't have put him out there as fair game to begin with. Nevertheless, I do appreciate your graciousness. Now to return those library books and enjoy what remains of the day!
                                                                                  • >> If you're faking it, it's impressive.

                                                                                    I would have to concede that a some significant part is faking. I say this because I do it MORE to grease the wheels of society, and LESS because it feels like the right thing to do.
                                                                      • A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Allow me to indulge myself by attempting an analysis.

                                                                        RE: your significant other and funerals.

                                                                        I don't believe he fears them. Most likely he sees little value in the social rituals associated with death. Therefore he is not good at the rituals. Therefore he prefers not to engage in something he does not find valuable. Because he does not like to engage in it, he is not consummately good at it. The perfectionist in him does not wish to engage in an activity he cannot perform to perfection. This is somewhat of a self reinforcing loop.

                                                                        I've been in similar situations. When confronted with loss, I wanted to be allowed to contemplate. Dealing with the rituals was an incredible drain on top of everything else.

                                                                        The appropriate corrective action is to realize that a) other people require the social rituals (silly though they may be). and b) it is acceptable to engage in a social activity at a non-optimum level.

                                                                        I just kept telling myself, "this is important to them...". Shake hands, hug, smile, agree with whatever they say, get it over with. Strongly resist the urge to do bodily harm to the next amateur psychologist that "wants to talk about it".
                                                                        • My husband agrees that he "fears" funerals in that he experiences concern about his own behavior. He may "flood," he may become overwhelmed; he may cry. Simply talking about a funeral his attended years ago for someone who was a "best friend" brought up tears, and he HATES falling apart in public. He calls that "fear"; I don't know what term you use. (Personally, I think naming it as a "fear" and admitting he has "those" is a big development step for him as an INTJ in general.)

                                                                          My husband DOES see the value in the social rituals associated with death, particularly after I read him an article from my guided imagery coursework about the importance of funerals, and how they are a ritualistic honoring of death that helps people accept the "truth" of the person's demise, among a variety of other benefits I shan't bore you with here. In spite of seeing this value, he is concerned about "falling apart."

                                                                          He did his own "grief work" privately... and he knew the funeral was about what "other people think." And he knew that was important. To honor the memory of their mother, all four of the siblings returned to Australia to attend her funeral. It was something to see.

                                                                          He also did a lot of bridge-building with family members in the time he was there. When he arrived back home Saturday, he admitted to me on the phone that it was probably "the best week of his life." What a paradox! If he had decided to stay home and skip it instead, he would have deprived himself of soooo much richness! Which is not to say it was easy -- it wasn't! But I think he met the situation with courage and determination and honor. So now he gets to feel great that he did right by his mom, and he grew in ways he never thought possible. Somewhat because he is sooo type-aware, he got to show up differently than if he was unaware (in which case he might have not shown up at all!).

                                                                          I'm very proud of him -- especially because he didn't take the easy way out and "fake it."
                                                                          • I agree that what you describe vis a vi your husband is what I would call fear.

                                                                            I also see the value in social rituals. But, I often feel the value is mostly to others. I.e. I put a much much lower value on them myself than most do. I feel "dirty" in observing them as if society requires me to lower my standards to conform. Yet, I do it since it is impossible to exist outside of society.

                                                                            >> especially because he didn't take the easy way out and "fake it."

                                                                            I would like to make the point that this sentence implies that if I don't react like the majority, I am "faking it". I often feel my life is spent meeting everyone else on their terms and never on mine. Only other intj's seem to "get it" (and they're damn hard to get along with ;)

                                                                            I've never met your husband, yet I'm "feel" you've taken one of "us" and "broken" him. Bent him to suit the majority's perception of the correct personality. (I don't mean this as a criticism of you so much as an honest sharing of what I perceive).
                                                                            • I would like to make the point that you yourself suggested "faking it" as an option for getting through the ordeal of a funeral.

                                                                              My husband does not feel broken -- he feels as though he is playing more "strings" on his instrument than he used to. He has more range available to him than he did as a young'un.

                                                                              As far as "reacting like the majority" goes, that's a fine line. Certainly it is possible to get through life without ever giving Feeling a respected seat at your "table." But you won't be "whole" without it.

                                                                              You don't become "whole" because the culture wants you to -- you become whole because the universe presents you with opportunities in your life to develop that process and become whole. If you reject the opportunities, you will suffer accordingly (divorce, estranged family members, bad reputation perhaps? who knows.).

                                                                              My husband got married the first time out because "everybody was doing it." So he did what the culture wanted, and it didn't work out for him because he was "faking it."

                                                                              Going back to Aus for his mother's funeral was a wonderful chance for him to see whether he could operate in the Feeling channel because he was finally adapted and ready to do that. And he did very well! Everyone is thrilled, and there were a lot of "deposits" made in the feeling bank of his life.

                                                                              I don't think we've established how old you are yet, but what I've noticed with middle-aged INTJs is that many are hungry to develop themselves and try to master new aspects of themselves. Sometimes this means developing their emotional intelligence. Thus, I know INTJs who do teambuilding, are life coaches, or help people discover their life purpose.

                                                                              But believe me, they aren't at that level of development because they were "pressured" into it by society. And they probably weren't ready for it 20 years ago.

                                                                              It sounds stupid to say, but everybody's different.

                                                                              I don't put you down for "faking it" to get through a funeral if that's the way to take care of yourself. But please don't think less of me if I sob at length over my mother's coffin and cling helplessly to my siblings as I fully experience the depth of my loss. Can we make that agreement? You don't shame me and I won't shame you.
                                                                              • >> I don't put you down for "faking it" to get through a funeral if that's the way to take care of yourself. <<

                                                                                Don't worry. It's exceedingly difficult to hurt my feelings. Perversely, I rather enjoy it when people try.

                                                                                >> But please don't think less of me if I sob at length over my mother's coffin and cling helplessly to my siblings as I fully experience the depth of my loss. <<

                                                                                Certainly I apologize whole heartedly if I offended you. I don't want to change you. I regret I chose your husband as an example.

                                                                                I've had 41 years of dealing with emotions (answering your age question...). I have already decided on how I value feelings. Yet a consistent theme I see is that I "need to get in touch with my feelings". Been there. Done that. I feel that society seems to pressure the intj into seeing things their way.

                                                                                I understand that I need to "use" emotions/feelings to get along or it will come back and bite me. It doesn't mean I need to collapse weeping at a funeral to demonstrate my wholeness.

                                                                                Again sorry. This particular part of the conversation seems to have taken a bad turn. My fault. Honestly, you have been very helpful.

                                                                                • Wheeeee! I just ran aground on introverted Feeling, apparently. Over here I'm wondering where all the apologies and concerns came from. It seems a "judgment" got made that we've taken a "bad turn" ("bad" being a particularly Feeling-charged term). It seems like something got "triggered" that I'm unaware of, which makes me think it's highly personal TO YOU. It is *not* a shared experience (Fe).

                                                                                  Given this one example, it seems you are quite able to "get in touch with" your feelings. So if "society" tells you that you need to get "in touch with your feelings," you have my permission to let it know that you already ARE in touch with them. You might care to turn the tables on whomever expresses that sentiment to you, and ask them kindly if it's alright for you to experience your feelings in your own way.....?

                                                                                  I guess that, using Jung's techniques, I would suggest you "test" that kind of feedback when it comes at you to see whether it's a wonderful opening to express your preferences to someone and educate them about your personal differences, or whether there's any truth in what they are saying and it could be regarded as an invitation to embrace more wholeness. YOU get to choose how to respond to this gift. (Making each other wrong usually isn't very productive.)
                                                                                  • >> Wouldn't you dearly love to replace those pictures with something infinitely more flattering?
                                                                                    Honestly?? couldn't much care unless there is some other reason (e.g. need person to perform on my project). not real important what others think of me (in most cases). hypersensitive to some (my wife for example).... yeah, just like the profile says. spooky.

                                                                                    >>Over here I'm wondering where all the apologies and concerns came from
                                                                                    Felt you were offended. i realize most don't deal well with the smack-in-face honesty i use.

                                                                                    Don't worry about me. Seriously, you just saw that part of my personality where I "used you up" as a source of information and decided to move on. I REALLY need to work on my tact. A topic garners my intense interest. I study it in detail. Then I need a period of time to comtemplate and place it within the framework in my mind. I've got a bunch of personality-type books on order from amazon. Give me time to educate myself and I'll be back for more.

                                                                                    also, believe you hit part of a nerve (indirectly). disturbs me that I allowed that to happen.

                                                                                    The highest complement I can pay someone is to "debate" with them. Most people rate merely silence and an icy stare. i very much value your insights. I hope you understand. Most people don't like to be told I used them to satisfy my intellectual curiousity.
                                                                                    • Gotta say I'm over thinking, "Wow, what is he making up?"

                                                                                      Clearly you are in touch with the introverted Feeling archetype, and maybe some introverted Sensing as well. It's hard for me to "dance" with those processes because they're internal and subjective to you.

                                                                                      So let's jump to a coach framework and try to get it out front: what do you need from me to know we're on firm ground and nothing's gone off the rails?

                                                                                      I know a little something about the INTJ habits, being married to one. So can we not confuse me with "most people"? That feels icky. If you think something's gone south, I'd like it better if you checked it out with me. ;-)

                                                                                      Make you a deal: I won't worry about you; you won't worry about me. If that changes, we'll let the other know. Whadya say?
                                                                                      • >>I won't worry about you; you won't worry about me. Whadya say?

                                                                                        As I suspect you already know, that is the status quo with me. I have to be careful because I tend to debate strenuously, directly and with sarcasm. I have to watch because most non-intj's do not seem to understand that I can usually detach my personal emotions yet be very committed and animated with a subject (I pride myself on being able to argue either side of a point equally forcefully).

                                                                                        Having said that, I have difficulty determining when I have actually offended the feeling types with my unassailable logic (and arrogance...). So, I load my shotgun with a healthy dose of social lubricant and fire away…

                                                                                        Finally, as I said, I’ve simply exhausted my limited supply of extrovertism… I need to re-order and tidy up my brain, finding a place for the new information, before I can continue.
                                                                                        • So we'll take a break, because I'm tapped too and have lots of clients on my plate today.

                                                                                          AND I woke up this morning thinking about this last exchange. Yesterday I suggested I was looking at introverted Feeling and possibly introverted Sensing -- and this morning it dawned on me that I was probably encountering your Trickster extraverted Feeling. Sooooo.... you were "considering others" (me), and "taking care of me" (so to speak) -- except I didn't need that. So it turned into this kinda weird, dare I say codependent-feeling, exchange.

                                                                                          So it seems like even when you DO use the Fe channel you can't get it right!

                                                                                          I decided to write this to you -- not to make embarrass you or anything, but for the sake of great learning. It beautifully demonstrates the weakness in the INTJ pattern. (I hope you don't mind.)

                                                                                          It's not surprising that INTJs would like extraverted Feeling "taken off the table," because even when they DO try to use it, it seems to blow up in front of them! This was a great demonstration of that.

                                                                                          So I'll just let that sit there, and get back to my business, and hopefully we will connect again soon.
                                                                                        • John wrote "As I suspect you already know, that is the status quo with me. I have to be careful because I tend to debate strenuously, directly and with sarcasm. I have to watch because most non-intj's do not seem to understand that I can usually detach my personal emotions yet be very committed and animated with a subject (I pride myself on being able to argue either side of a point equally forcefully).

                                                                                          Having said that, I have difficulty determining when I have actually offended the feeling types with my unassailable logic"
                                                                                          (this might be waaaay to late to get back to, but I'll try) Why do you call your logic in debating 'unnassailable' and yet acknowledge that you can think up just as good a rationale for the other side of an arguement. Those two things seem incompatible to me. Also, for feeling types, if the problem is relevent to feeling thier opinions will be based on the feeling function, and if you're just playing devils advocate, it may be fun for you, but it may also be a waste of thier time. So, with this information you can either learn to: remind yourself that admitting your could argue for the otherside is not as impressive as you think, and you will remember not to admit it, or (here's the better idea) admit that your logic not 'unnassailable'. Give me an example of some of you're 'logic'.
                                                              • >>By the way, as an aside, I feel very gratified by your respectful tone. It's inviting, and I appreciate it, so I want to be sure I acknowledge it. <<

                                                                VickiJo, take a stab at analyzing this. When I read this sentence, part of me tells me it's genuine but I gain (feel) little from the acknowledgement except that it is a social ritual we observe to grease the wheels of interaction. In fact, my first "felt" reaction is to think it is patronizing and that you are attempting to manipulate me. Not that an attempt to manipulate bothers me much, merely that I perceive it. Further, I observe that I mentally file away the tidbit of information that I can use a respectful/inviting tone in the future to manipulate (bad choice of a word but you get the idea) you.
                                                                • OIC. Oops. My husband and I have this issue all the time.

                                                                  It's interesting because, in the INTJ pattern, extraverted Feeling is in the 7th position -- which carries the archetype we call the Trickster. So when I use my genuine extraverted Feeling on you, part of you feels like I'm trying to "trick" you. (I think the word you used was "manipulate.")

                                                                  You don't trust that process, you probably make fun of it, it isn't something you consider stable or trustworthy.

                                                                  Gotta catch my plane!
  • I'm actually an ENFP female, with an INTJ boyfriend.

    We have been together for almost two years, and he makes me exquisitely happy. I'm only 18, but I already know that he is the man I want to marry.

    We can talk about anything, and have much in common. I don't recall us ever having been in a fight, really.
    We compliment each other well, and each always knows just what to do to make the other smile.

    As for your question, I think "ridiculously happy" just about covers it.
  • I, an INTJ, was married (5 years married- 7 year relationship) to a male ENFP and it did not work out. It could have been our age at marriage, stage of development and I sometimes think the lifestyle of debt and two children. I don't see much wrong with the way we felt about one another. We grew hostile and weary at some point about all of the obligation and future direction.

    I am now married to an ESFP, however, between the two relationships I dated another INTJ. It was virtually conflict free and easy-going. I was understood and complimented in every way. The drawback was the monotony and lack of physical drive/attraction. I equate that relationship to resting on calm waters, though I don't want the insane challenges that come with most other relationships. I probably would have stayed in the INTJ-INTJ relationship had I not had children and needed someone more my opposite on my parenting team. I need focus outside of myself in order to maintain my life situation. I see that in hindsight. There was a reason I could never quite put my finger on that I opted out of it.

    ESFP-INTJ (8 year relationship-4 year marriage) current relationship is a match made in Heaven-Hell. I don't mean either/or, I specifically mean Heaven-Hell. :)

    My point is that even the ideal is situational. The best type match has to also match other functional day-to-day criteria. However, nothing was more enjoyable than the young and carefree INTJ-ENFP relationship I had initially. I see the potential had we been on the same mature page in our lives.
  • I have been married to an ENTP (husband) for 30 years. I really think I need a "T" rather than an "F". (Our adopted daughter is an ESFJ, which has not been easy for her, because she constantly seeks approval from a mother who feels external approval is superfluous.) At any rate, my ENTP and I have had an intellectually stimulating relationship, and are great friends. Not as much passion as there might be with an ENFP, perhaps, but I'm not sure I need it. We have had our conflicts, because he is quite comfortable being the boss, and I am definitely not "bossable". Nonetheless, I am usually content to allow him to make decisions unless things get screwed up. What conflicts we have usually revolve around both of us having made independent plans on how to approach the same problem, and I am quite inflexible when I have decided upon what to me seems a superior way to approach an issue. When his way is better, I will grudgingly yield. He is more optimistic than I am, and much more talkative - both of these are characteristics that I definitely want in a mate. He also makes me laugh, because he has a tremendous wit. All in all, a good pairing.
    • don
      don
      offline 1
      I am an INTJ and all of my closest friends and great loves have been ENFP's, but can't seem to find one now. Where do you find ENFP's? Does anyone know any MBTI friendly dating sites?
      • Hey ENFP Dreamer,

        Just wondering how it's going with INTJ bloke...??

        Best wishes,

        D. (INTJ, 36, Male, UK)
        • Hey! I am an ENFP, but I'm kinda nervous about this 'soulmate match' thing. So I continue to be attracted to INTJs, but they always bring me so much heartache. What can I do to fix this pattern, or do you have to go through a lot of heartache to find the right ones? I find INTJs to take forever to just jump into relationships, and they cannot help but to overanalyze everything. Is this just part of the 'charm', or am i just a weird ENFP? Thanks :)
          • ... quite frankly, INTJs stress me out so much... but I'm hooked.(which explains why I'm here >>) XD So, yeah, this ENFP feels your pain.

            Honestly, with the overanalyzing bit... it's like a love/hate thing for me. I'm really intrigued by the constant debating and analyzing, yet he's always so detached! Intellectually, he gets all intense and excited but when it comes to relationships there's this note of detachment that's startling... Guess it's because I simply don't work that way. Since my brain functions like that of a lawyer, I can see and argue both sides of a case... which leaves me stuck sometimes where I have to say to hell with it and just follow my gut and do something...

            for INTJs: Do you differenciate between someone you think of romantically and are interested in and the friend of the opposite sex you tell your intellectual ideas and debate with as an equal?

            • Speaking for myself only, the two are completely independant of one another for me. I mean, they COULD be the same person... nothing is barring it on my end. But they don't HAVE to be. I do find that when I expect one person to be ALL of EVERYTHING, they often fall short. It is a burden, many people cannot handle. So I quit expecting it of people long ago. I meet people, learn them, then simply appreciate them for who they are and what the have to offer. At the end of the day, I really do want a relationship to encompass all attractions... mental, physical, emotional... which are the basis on which to eventually develop spiritial. Mostly, on a good day, I only find two out of the three basis, and the other proves most difficult to obtain, and certainly maintain. I think it should fit natually. Like a glove. Even if the glove doesn't fit *just* right, it still slides on easily. And feels good. :o)
            • No, I will debate with someone despite their being a romantic interest or not. To me, that's a non issue, the only thing that matters is, well, the debate of course ! We tend not to be romantically interested in someone who cant hold up to their end of a good debate. At least I know I cant perhaps that's not all INTJs but I was given to understand that

  • I am an ENFP girl, and i have been going out with an INTJ boy for only 3 weeks now, but i am so happy with him!! he is probably the best boyfriend i have ever had, and i don't want him leaving me. I usually get bored with my relationships and/or get freaked out for some weird reason and end up leaving guys, but not with him. I'm very protective of him and i like him alot. :)
  • I'm an ENFP, and I must agree that INTJ and ENFP make a great match. They compliment each other and have amazing chemistry. My question is, where would I be most likely to find a young INTJ male? You guys are so reserved and mysterious, I just have no idea were to come across such fascinating people =)
    • boy, I could give a varied response to that one... hmmm... we're introverts, and typically don't really go with crowd. for my own life, i would say it depends on where i'm at in my life as to where you would find me. when i was in my teens, I worked on a farm, studied, played football, drew and painted, and partied. My friends were very close, and I had very few of them. I was widely respected and popular, but I didn't really know it then. I was respected because I didn't bend my values to follow the crowd, and pretty much did what saw was fit and right regardless and let the chips fall where they may. In my early 20's, you would find me studying at the university in the Library or the computer lab. That was my life. And down at the brew pub on Friday afternoons. Sunday's were spent studying, and a lot of Saturday's, too. Mid-to-late 20's were you would find me at work pretty much around the clock, or spending time with my family (I was married then). If you are getting the picture that social time was an afterthought, and anything out of the way of academics or work was really WAY out of the way, then you are really catching on. early-to-mid thirties (which is where I am now) became a different story. more on a track of self and spiritual improvement (which has always been the case, but we evolve as we see new paths, right? and we each see these paths very differently). part of that path is reflection on where and relationships may have went wrong, some on new growth directions and personal development (yes, I mean socially... not for the sake of socializing, but for the sake of becoming a better person) and learning how to enjoy another part of life rather than just the theoretical/academic an logical parts of it. So, developing feeling, and an appreciation for the physical parts of life, as well. Hmm... so now I guess you would find someone like me at ballroom dances, dance classes, performing in shows, dancing socially, ham radio clubs, scuba classes, renassaince festivals, live music festivals, live theatre productions, bookstores, etc.

      Now, do you see a common theme? I still go to "classes" because structured learning is enjoyable to me. I prefer to see a structure to things, and then dig inside of it. And that is what you get in "classes". even when I am being sociable.

      so, maybe the best places to find intj's are going to be in some type of "class". Although, I admit I know many INTJ's that learn on their own at home. Which is exaclty like i was... when I was like 0 to 30. I do both now. I learn at home, but have also developed other learning modes that are not so introverted. I am more readily able to accept some things that other people pass on without having to understand all of what they are telling me to the nth degree (don't get me wrong, I've done my fair share of that earlier in life... its just... other things flow SO much more efficiently, leaving me time to do other things that I want to do when I reserve that level of analysis and design for the things that I love most).

      The thing is, you probably brush against more INTJ's than you realize that you do in places like the supermarkets or bookstores (as long as you are checking out special interest sections and science fiction sections). You probably think they are the stern looking or boring looking plain people. We are anything but. but you probably wouldn't know that.

      I knew one INTJ who was very involved in political activisim. They each have their special interests.
  • My husband and I are extraordinarily happy. We have been married 3 years with one child and we were best friends for 5 years before we were married. Our entire courtship was long distance since he is military. I don't recommend going about a marriage this way to anyone else, but I am only saying that the odds were stacked against us, but we have the right personalities so we just seem to always fit. We almost never disagree and when we do, we never fight. My friends often laugh at how perfect we are for eachother and many of our friends come to us for relationship advice because they've never known a happier couple (nor have I). I just thought I would post to let you all know that I think ENFP's and INTJ's are perfect matches. My husband is the INTJ and I am the ENFP I can't wait to see what our son will be!
    • Jim
      Jim
      offline 0
      Amanda, I am an ENFP male. My high school sweetheart (INTJ) and best friend from high school to college got back in touch with me after a 14 year separation. We were both unprepared for just how damn good we were going to be together. After a year-and-a-half of constant talking, the greatest sex and romance I've ever felt, we are going to get married. We're both currently going through divorces, so it makes things hard, but in the long run everything will have been worth it when we are finally together. Our chemistry is incredible, and I truly believe we are soulmates. I used to think this was a silly term used by sappy romantic types, but after living the reality of it, I'm now a believer. Where one of us ends it feels like the other begins. I would love to hear more about your relationship. My relationship with Becky is currently a distance one too.

      Jim
  • Hi Tanja. My INTJ boyfriend and I are soo happy! We met a year ago and it took such great self-control to not initiate conversation every day! He has always been like a glove on my hand, such a good listener, and hysterical! We started talking, then friendship-dated for 4 months, and then we decided to be together and have been happily so for 6 months. Every day has been so happy and I don't know of any couple that's as happy as us. Not really drama between us. He calms me down and pursues me so well. I always feel connected with him. We marvel at how fresh our feelings are and how powerful our love is!
  • I'm an ENFP woman who is in an amazing relationship with an INTJ man for several months now. I think we fell in love almost immediately and while only time will tell if this will last, both of us prefer and have had long term relationships in the past and see things going that way. I love the intimate connection we have almost effortlessly, and ease of communication. I also love watching his wheels of logic spinning and how he is always thinking. At first I was worried the feeling part would not be there, but he is actually very emotionally deep, it just takes patience on my part, but when he does express himself I am almost stunned by all that he is feeling. He says that I'm like a firework show that he can't get enough of and he loves that I seem to always have a restrained energy inside me. So far our differences seem to be appreciated.
  • I'm an INTJ woman who has been with an INFP man for four years, and we are very, very happy together. Our personalities compliment each other very well, yet we are similar enough to understand each other the vast majority of the time. I definitely feel that in some respects my personality is more stereotypically masculine and his more stereotypically feminine. Overly outgoing personalities tend to turn me off, so I like that we're both introverted. Communication is usually easy. We are often on the same page without too much effort -- usually when conflict arises, it stems from him using his heart too much and/or me using my head too much. We are able to give each other space to do things individually -- the relationship never compromises our goals or desires as individuals, and that is key. We're only in our early twenties, so I guess time will tell, but we're old souls.
  • Im also an INTJ female and I recently married my ENFP husband. I also think we are one of the happiest most stable couples that I know. Weve been together for about 4 years and married for a few months. Its funny because traditional gender roles are kind of switched for us in many areas. Our most serious fights are usually about stupid stuff that doessnt matter (usually cause he gets to emotional about something haha).
    • It sounds like an incredible match! I would like to find one of these people to be my best friend =)

      I tried the INTJ/INTJ relationship thing - blech. On so many levels. But relationships based on type can be so tricky - we are each so unique.

      I have been married to an ESTP 20 years and I am super happy! Only ESTPs with an incredibly high I.Q. are suited to us however. :p
  • I am ridiculously happy with my relationship and we are both intjs. I've been in several different relationships all a different type than me and they failed miserably. In this relationship, we laugh all the time, talk all the time, and when we argue we smile because we know what the other is thinking about the other one. Intimacy is also ridiculously amazing.

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