Is the ENFP the INTJ's perfect match?

>Litestorm (and other ENFP bashers :-)),

My comment was not meant to be NF bashing.
It is just an obsevation that my relationships with NF
in general consume much more energy, and attention than those with
other NTs or even SPs. In general they are much more INTENSE.

I have only begun to appreciate how intense since I met an INTP ;)
Am I ridiculously happy? Happy Yes. Ridiculous No, but I am VERY comfortable..

I suspect the reason your relationship has been so succesful is
that your Extravertive Feeling is so well developed. (Tertiary Function in INTJs
Secondary in INFJs) this is Primary in ENFPs.

> I simply lend more credence to the testimonials of someone who has proven that they can make a relationship work.
My ENFP relationship worked out for quite a while , over 5 years, and our friends thought we would be togther for the long haul. I do not think it is fair to write off an experience that could have progressed further than your own relationship. Do not reject data because it does not fit into your model.(Ouch Im sounding like an INTP again))

Hey VJ!!

Sorry I have not posted this week, yet. Much of my evenings have been spent preparing for volunteer and committee work that I volunteered for earlier in the year. I tried to repsond to your post below this one a few days ago because i thought it would be shorter, but it took me until now to finish it out. Now I reply to this one.

*** Hey Wyatt... Yeah, I got stuff going on too that's pulling on me. :-(

*** I hope I didn't rush through this too quickly, AND I hope we aren't boring everyone to tears! :-O

--
*w: I think I am struggling with containing Fi. There is so much I want to say to her, and probe with her, but cannot in mixed company. So, my Fi (clarifying values to achieve accord) is strugging with my Fe (deciding if something is apporpriate or acceptable to others). Fe is a shadow process for me, and I am experiencing it in a negative way, since my stimulation of it is as constraints barring me from making advancements toward accumulation of data so that I can form clarity of her feelings in relation to my own). Furthermore, i think this is happening because my Ni isn't enough to accumulate the data, my Te isn't succeeding in forcing it to accumulate, and so Fi is trying to support it against a backdrop of social settings in which I am not used to opporating. I feel I can get the data I need rather skillfully and *relatively* transparent in a one-on-one conversation with Aphrodite. Which never seems to be able to manifest itself.

*** Whew! That's impressive! A masterful analysis!

--
w: I promise you, what I descibe may be the five sense things, but it stems from the fact that she has MUCH more of a psycological effect on me. VJ, I have seen and dated better looking women. I do not know any other way to describe it. There is just something else there..... her way.... I simply cannot describe it. I have to get to know her better. Then I will be able to pinpoint it. I think. Something about her is elusive... someting there that I should be able to see clearly, but it is opaque, and I can't quite. I WANT her. There is an inoscence there, too. I do identifiy with that.

*** I'm wondering how much you recognize extraverted Sensing. Here's an anecdote:
I was in a relationship with an ESFP for a time. Truthfully, he was overweight and not terribly attractive. But he was verrrrrrry sexy. WOW. I remember one time he worked as an extra in a film -- he was supposed to sit at a bar and, on cue, get up and leave. Well, he got up to leave, reached in his pocket, took out a bill and *snapped* it before tossing it on the counter. It was so riveting you wanted to swoon. EVERYBODY noticed. So they ended up changing the scene around so that this "bill snap" became the "star" of the scene, LOL!

*** Extraverted Sensing is not JUST about being attractive -- it's also about having an impact.

*** Sometimes I think of it as the "show-off" function.

*** (There would be times this ESFP would turn around and say, "You're looking at my butt, aren't you?" And he knew we were!)

*** So don't limit Se to the five senses, or think it's entirely about looking attractive. It may instead be about getting looked AT. (Don't some people have a talent for that? Think of Cher, for example. "Look at me! Look at me!")

*w: I barely have a theoretical grasp of the terms without having to go back and look up each of the processes each time I talk about them. Couple this with the fact that I have NO field work experience, and therefore very little experience isolating which action corresponds to/from which process. But I am getting there.

*** "You can only be really conscious of things which you have experienced, so individuation must be understood as life. Only life integrates, only life and what we do in life brings out the individual. . . Real consciousness has to be based upon life experience, just talking about things is not enough." -C.G.Jung

*** This is an incredibly rich topic of study that can sustain one for *years*.

This is further compounded by the fact that I STILL don't know her very well.

*** And oh yeah, there's *that*. ;-P

--

*w: Hop out the window and come down!!! Or I could come up, we could talk, see each others shadows, sew them back on, then you could come down, and we could go after Aphrodite's shadows!! (and then her Heart!) Tinkerbell is *qualified* to help us! (*I think she has experience*)

*** ROFL!!

--
*w: Aren't all the processes broad sweeping generalizations by themselves? We use them anyway in parallel and tandem to siphon out personality characteristics against the relief of what's left. It's just an analysis tool, only as effective as the theory it is built on, the methods we have of detecting it, and the experience and skill we have in evaluating the results.

*** Is this a serious question? Because I'm not sure how to respond. I do know that typology is a serious method of analysis, not a game of "Pin the tail on the donkey." It requires training oneself to use a new framework and getting sophisticated at employing accurate filters.

*** It is not a trait theory, which is what many people try to reduce it to. When people assume "S" means "stupid" and "N" means "iNtelligent," they are attempting to reduce type to traits. You might as well say INFJs are beautiful and INTJs are ugly while we're at it. ;-P

*** (This is the reason many people run screaming the other direction from type.)

--
w:Also, ESFP's usually are not patient with long theoretical explanations, right? Prefering instead a practical explanation, or to make simple but broad sweeping statements?

vj: Y'mean, are they stupid??

*w: Absolutely not. I mean that instead, aren't they are usually uninterested in the theory, preferring instead the practicalities of a situation? The girl i have been with for the last 10 years, let's call her Athena, is an ESTP, and she is extremely smart. Smarter than me. But her talents and preferences are in-the-moment analysis and problem solving. (she is also VERY good at sizing up people within a few minutes of meeting them, where it takes me a few months to come to the same conclusions-- but her judgement on people is limited only to situational motivation-- which makes her good in business-- while my judgement is usually more accurate about the HUMANITY of a person; i.e., that good people can do very bad things, while bad people can also do very good things, what each should be help accountable for, and wheather they really intended to perform a good or bad action or not, and what the long term impact on the victim/beneficier will be.

*** I understand what you are saying, and certainly some of that is there. But I want to be cautious about how it gets expressed. In the case you are citing above, it is clear to me that Athena has "Interest in Motive," which is part of the Improviser temperament pattern. You are likely to notice the contrast due to your contrasting "Interest in Structure," which is part of the Theorist Temperament pattern. (Switching models here!)

vj: Y'mean they want you to cut to the chase, get to the point?

*w: Something like that.

*** An ESFP has a very different interaction style pattern from an ESTP. They have the "Get-Things-Going" style, which features both Informing communication (opposite of Athena's) and the pace will be a tad slower, meant to involve you. It is the same style as ENFP, which is yet another reason why the two are easy to confuse.

*** Temperament is probably the best way to figure out someone's pattern quickly.

vj: One of the most brilliant people I've ever known had ESFP preferences, and he introduced me to a number of theories I was previously unaware of. I found his company enthralling.

*w: Are you sure his preferences were ESFP? How do you know? (<-- taken directly from the "Book of Tactics" by Vicky Jo)

*** LOL!

*** Well, he went through the same MBTI qualifying program as me. He entered the program believing he had ENFP preferences, and the instructors sidled up to him and invited him to investigate ESFP because ENFP didn't quite seem to fit. He agreed with their assessment after reading through the different temperament descriptions, and he now works for the Government doing team-building using the type models he learned. Is that compelling enough?

*** We were all very clear that he wasn't a "stereotypical" ESFP -- but then again, it seems few people ARE.

And, also, a person's preferences doesn't mean that they are unable to address or invent theory or not, or that they are smart or not. It is simply a preference. That is, when everything is at "rest", where do they tend back to? Let me know what you think of these set of statements:

Some people seem not to fit so "neatly" into the squares.

*** If you think of them as "squares," you're in trouble to begin with.

These are hybrids, which may carry characteristics of more than one "type". I think these are not rare, but not the norm, either.

*** We are all of us unique. But somewhere between the continuum that ends where all of us are the "same," and the other end, where all of us are "different," we can insert some models that describe our similarities and differences through a helpful framework. Type is that framework.

But, I am not an expert. I have read that more often than not, people do have one preference a little stronger than another, and that will define their behavioral characteristics.

*** YOu cannot measure the "strength" of a preference. Are you more DomNi than me? Prove it. (Because you cannot.)

*** Type is NOT about strength of a process -- it is only ever about whether or not something is habitual, a preference.

I don't know how true it is. And, the way the E/I S/N T/F J/P worlds are defined, you are really either one or the other, right? I mean if we define the line between the two extremes to be in a particular place, then you are either on one side or the other, right? It is these lines that divides us into the "boxes".

*** You have just identified the Te construction of the MBTI.

*** The MBTI is an instrument that is intended to help you discover your preferences without having to learn everything about the model. Unfortunately, anybody who spends more than two days on the idea of type starts to question the "truth" of the assessment, because they quickly realize they can live in all EIGHT of the boxes. They forget it was only ever about preferences, and try to make type do "tricks." (Usually they reduce it to stupid stereotypes.)

Now, the preference profiles are defined over 16 types for MBTI (4 behavioral temperaments for the "Keirsey way"), and at the end of the day, only YOU can decide how YOU best fit.

*** 16 Keirsey types as well. (4 Temperaments combined with 4 Interaction Styles patterns combine to 16 types that coincide with the 16 MBTI preference types.)

So maybe there is some overlap, or give and take on YOUR EXACT type/profile, but having the type/profile construct there to show our characteristics as a relief against "other types" is certainly better than NOT having it, right? So, I place [Person x] into a box, because I choose to, and you, myself, and everyone else, with the caveat that it may not be 100% accurate. BUT, it is a BEGINNING place for me to understand the person. And sometimes, that is all I need. Sometimes, not.

*** I'm not about putting people in boxes; however I am VERY interested in identifying people's *patterns*. I use that as my starting point instead. ;-)

What this construct does not address is that there is different "maturity" levels and "talent" levels in people. Think of it like this. Imagine ALL of the MBTI types arranged in the 4x4 matrix you commonly see them in. Now, pick up this 2-dimensional piece of paper, and wrap it around so that the left side touches the right side, forming a cylinder, and then "roll" the top and bottom toward the inside until they touch, forming a "donut". Now, this "3-Dimensional" construct does a couple of things: (a) we have all types touching the next type by one letter change, and (b) depth is represented by going down into the donut. We can let the depth represent a product of (i) talent AND (ii) maturity. For instance, what we mean by talent is analogous to a football player. One can have MUCH more natural talant than others in a given area. Even if your preferences are one way over the other (and there is belief that your dominant preferences are guided by your natural talents, which feeds back into steering your preferences, and on and on), you can be near the top or bottom of the spectrum on these talents against other people even though they may be YOUR most preferred (and usually that means your most natual talents, as well). In the case of a football player, the most talented ones, if their talant is practiced and developed, go on to play professional ball. They are the best at their skill. If they are not talented, they do not progress. If the are talented, but not developed, they do not progress. If they are mediocre in one, they can componsate some with the other and progress some. If they are excellant in both, then they are at the top of their game. So, this is how I imagine it.

*** I can see what you are doing, and it makes some sense I guess.

*** Since I don't treat the codes as "boxes" but as patterns, it seems more dynamic for me. I'm not trying to hang letters on people (pin the tail on the donkey) -- I am trying to identify what consciousnesses are activated for them in a given situation (as Jung wanted us to). (Forms of consciousness are not about "traits," although some kinds of traits *may* predictably manifest from certain forms of consciousness.)

*** And I do the whole thing differently. ;-D

*** Temperament and Interaction Styles are *behavioral models." They are about "patterns." So when I use these filters, there are three dimensions I am running through my head and trying to fit around. They are dynamic, not static.

*** Since these are models of "patterns," someone is either a "dress pattern" or a "pants pattern." There's no such thing as a dress/pants pattern (that would be a mess!). Now, some dress patterns are bigger than others; some are smaller. But it either is a dress or a pair of pants -- never both. A pattern is a pattern is a pattern, regardless of size. (Thus it can dynamically "scale.") Some people are evening dresses, some people are frocks, some people are Scarlett O'Hara ballgowns. Nevertheless, these are all derivatives of the "dress" pattern.

*** Naturally all of the temperaments and interaction styles have certain elements in common, so I am always trying to sort those dichotomies on the fly, preferably based on multiple contexts.

*** In contrast, type is a model of PREFERENCES. This is an entirely different model, not just the same model stretched another way. And it is *HARD* to use type to figure out anyone's type. In fact, Jung didn't want you to! He writes, "My typology is far rather a critical apparatus serving to sort out and organize the welter of empirical material, but not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is . . . a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical."

*** Jung wanted us to get sophisticated at noticing what functions or "forms of consciousness" were being activated at any given moment. And THAT is not an easy thing to do (as you discovered below!).

*** Now the MBTI is something else again. Isabel Briggs-Myers, in her wisdom, broke Jung's theory down into four dichotomies in order to construct the instrument. It's a pretty clever approach! However, it doesn't hold up so well under close scrutiny. It "ball-parks" people, and it *suggests* their pattern, but to treat its results as definitive is foolish. Even the psychometric evidence shows that it is accurate at best 70% of the time (according to its own manual).

*** Unfortunately, most people think the MBTI *is* type. :-(

*** Sigh.


And at the end of the day, some people are just real jerks. I am not. Neither are you.

*** Usually people we consider jerks are manifesting characteristics we are uncomfortable with in ourselves. :-/

--
*w: I do not buy into stereotypes. But I do choose to use personality types, even with their caveats and flaws (on some level, isn't persoanlity type a type of sterotype? :oP).

*** See above. For me, Jung's psychological type is a map of our intrapsychic processes, so it cannot possibly be stereotype, just as each of us is individually unique -- unless you use the term "stereotype" to explore commonalities.

*** I confess I have a slight allergy to those who use type as stereotype. (Certainly that is not what Jung nor Isabel Briggs-Myers intended it for. They did not want us to trade in one set of stereotypes [i.e., "jerk"] for another [i.e., "sensors"].

It is not a perfected theory yet, and I am not skilled enough in this field to create the necessary perfections, so I will use what we have. I think you are attempting to perfect some of the analysis tools, and from what I have seen, I believe you have both the skill and dedication to do it! If I can help you, please let me know. You much fun to work with!

*** Many of us refer to the "art of type." I do not think it is an exact science, but is an art.

w: she seems to enjoy telling me about dreams she has had....

vj: I guess I'm wondering whether she relates the events or her interpretation. Is it about what happened, or about what it all means? (Although, is she driving that conversation or are you?)

*w: Yes. i see what you mean. After some reflection, I think the particular conversation we had was her telling me what happened, and "us" talking about what it meant. The conversation wasn't long enough for me to determine who was driving what, and it was a long time ago. Will have to follow up on this with her when I see an opportunity. I will try to be more concious of it next time.

*** "In order to be conscious of myself, I must be able to distinguish myself from others. Relationship can only take place where this distinction exists." -Jung

*w: ...hhhmmmmm. I see what you mean. I don't know, though. I am giving you a lot of innuendo, and I don't really know what of what I am relaying in this particular instance is accurate or not. My perceptions may be off, here, too.

*** "Whatever the circumstances of your life, the understanding of type can make your perceptions clearer, your judgments sounder, and your life closer to your heart's desire." -Isabel Briggs-Myers

w: She senses me.

vj: "Senses" you with her five senses? Like having an awareness of someone standing behind her? Kind of like those martial arts practices where you "sense" an attacker approaching from behind??

*w: No. Nothing like any of that. She "knows" what I want from her. Even though it has never been said. I think. She perries sometimes, she bates sometimes, but she never invites... until recently.

*** And is this not extraverted Sensing? It sounds rather like a cat playing with a grasshopper. ;-)

w: But I am at a loss to say in what way. I think I intimidate her sometimes(not in a bad way, but in a good way), kind of like she intimidates me.

vj: Hm, I wonder what that's about. Could it be an introvert/extravert difference? (WYSIWYG versus "still waters run deep"?) Could it be an extraverted Thinking auxiliary vs. extraverted Thinking tertiary? Could it be Theorist vs. Catalyst -or- Improviser?

There are so many flavors of intimidation to choose from.

Perhaps the only way to know is to ask. :-/

*w: Have you bumped your head!!??!! How do I do *that*?

*blink*

Actually, that is a good idea. How do I corner her into this kind of conversation? Since we had our first little *social* last night, I now have her phone number. I cannot help but believe this was intentional, since she has had my number months ago and never called (she probably threw it away). Now she has called. So I have her number in my mobile phone. And she knows it. Our visit was also very brief last night with one of her girlfriends, and another one of her colleague/friends (who helped set this up-- I didn't ask, her friend offered). Our "meeting" was an activity she crammed between two other activities that I think were a little more important to her. God, she looked good!!! But I don't think it was for me. Her and her friend were going to a concert, and I heard mention of other guys. :o( I am eating my heart out as I type (and TYPE). I wished she was dressing like that for ME!!! She did walk with me past my car, and give me a hug before we all left though. I think this is definitely "potential friend" status. So the question becomes, how to parlay that into "relationship" status. So maybe she is checking me out. I don't know. I need more data.

*** Maybe she needs more data too....?

w: Also, look at what you wrote, below!!! "Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: 'Wearing this might communicate…' "-- No, I am convinced more than ever this hair coloring thing is definitely part of her Intuition now... i specifically remember a conversation we had three months ago about the color of her hair that day and and the symbolizm behind it, and what it meant!

vj: Say more about that. (How much of the conversation came from you, and how much came from her?)

BTW, "Symbolism" seems to be more an Ni thing than an Ne thing, depending. (And did I mention that all Improvisers have introverted iNtuiting in their preference pattern?)

*w: *blink* Now that I reflect back on it, I think it came mostly from me. As I recall, she fed into it with some of her own insights, but I think i initiated it with a coule of comments.

vj:(I just remembered --- my HAIRDRESSER has ESFP preferences. ;-P)

w: Smart one! ;oP

vj: What does this goddess do for work again?? Or school?

*w: weeelllll... this is the first thing you have asked me that really makes me look at things the way they are (Si, that you complained about in the post below). Let's pick this apart. Since I we had a little *social* last night, and I am already detecting a little brown in the grass, I can start dismantling her pedistal.

*** I wonder if what you are REALLY attracted to is pedestals. (Robert Johnson to the rescue?)

(1) I think she is probably about 22. So not too age inappropriate, chrolologically. However, I think what does make her age inappropriate is the the fact that she still lives at home. Therefore, what kind of life experiences could she have possibly had? She hasn't had to get out and fight for anything, yet, namely her own survival, so how could she possbily value the failures and successes it takes to have something stable?

*** Good question. Can she?

(2) She is not in school, and from what I can see she doens't appear to have any ambition of going. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. She enjoys local popularity, and i think this means that unless she chooses to let go, and go after a college experience where one must "start over" and define themselves again, then her growth pattern is already locked in to those people already a part of her social structure, with little room for rapid, NEw influence or growth from knowing people like me or others. Not that it won't happen, just that it will take years for us to slowly filter in for her.

*** Interesting extrapolation, makes sense. (What you seem to be describing is her enjoying her extraverted Sensing "context" perhaps?)

(3) She works still works in her first job as a store clerk. (*what the HELL am I thinking?*) I did just learn this a couple of days ago.

*** I used to work in a clothing store with an ESFP. She was really good, and the owners loved her. Me, the shoplifters practically stole the store out from under me. :-(

(4) God she looks good, touches my heart, and I still want her. Although, maybe not as badly as yesterday. Until I see her again. Then I will want her as badly as yesterday.

*** Sounds like the Se anima is animated again! ;-P

vj: Let's look at definitions for Extraverted Sensing and Extraverted iNtuiting, because those are the two functions we're trying to choose between (as her preference):

Se
Extraverted Sensing: Experiencing the immediate context; taking action in the physical world; noticing changes and opportunities for action; accumulating experiences; scanning for visible reactions and relevant data; recognizing “what is.” Noticing what was available, trying on different items, and seeing how they look.

Ne
Extraverted iNtuiting: Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts. Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: “Wearing this might communicate…”

vj: So far I haven't heard much evidence of extraverted iNtuiting.

I do hear a lot of YOUR introverted iNtuiting being stimulated, and I confess it makes me wonder if you even SEE her clearly. (Do you follow me? In other words, maybe the iNtuiting that you're experiencing is YOURS -- highly stimulated -- not HERS.)

w: I hear you loud and clear. I have even wondered exactly this myself.

*** Great! Good noticing.

*w: Yeah.... about that. I am not sure if you realize yet that I am capable of Giant "N"ing all by myself.

*** Oh yeah. I noticed. At the expense of what??

*w: I do get a little high from it sometimes.

*** Beebe has said that Ni is sometimes "in danger of falling into the archetype."

*w: My house looks like hell. I just had my water shut off the other day because I hadn't paid my water bill in 6 months.

*** Forgot to do some introverted Sensing?

*w: This usually happens about twice a year. I am not lazy. I work all the time. I have money (I am not rich), and had plenty of money to pay my bill. But I looked up one day, and the water didn't work anymore. I don't know where my time went. I spend all of my time.... doing... other things... and it was hard work.

*** Were you my coaching client, I would invite you to log your time for a week and report to me a pie chart of what you logged. ;-D

*w: Lately, my time has been spent trying to get her, or try to figure out what my fixation is on her, so I can either get her, or get her off my plate and get someone else (preferably another ENFP (I want to "Super 'N'" together)-- or ESFP if it turn out you are right) so I can go back to being productive. I am on a time table. I have to get this worked out. I know you are going to say I might be a P, not a J, and I do believe I have many more P tendancies than I used to. But I am still a J. I am just at point in my life where I am absorbed in trying to "fix" a lot of things.

*** This sounds like a useful coaching conversation! First of all, as a technicality, you ARE a "P." Your favorite process is a perceiving process.

*** Second of all, you were born with a "problem." That happens to be a problem with Sensing. You will never "solve" this problem. So the question is how you want to "be" with it.

*** Third of all, what's going on with this "fixing"? Is that extraverted Thinking in operation? Whatcha fixin'??

*** I wonder whether you are being codependent with your extraverted Thinking? OR... I wonder whether you are being sucked into impossible problems that you fool yourself you can "fix." (My husband kept thinking he could "fix" his last marriage.)

*** Clearly this is a rich area of exploration, lots of "buzzing" seems to be here. What's it all "for the sake of?"

--

*w: She has already decided, and that is that we should be "friends".

*** HA. Finally, that sounds like Ni at work. It sounds like you have an "inner knowing" that a decision has been made. Excellent! (I've been looking for evidence of Ni.)

*w: So... before we weren't friends, and somehow, the path for "friends" was created. There must be a way to create the next opportunity for "romantic interest". But if she has already entertained the thought, and decided friends, then that is it. Right now. Unless she decided "friends" to have me around as an "option" for later, in which case we are still on. Right? So, let's just sweep the other annoying facts under the rug so that we can focus on the possibilities, with the caveat that we know they are under the rug. Besides, aren't there problems in all relationships? We can deal with those when we get to the relationship part. Did I just hear an echo?

*** Now, I don't know whether this is extraverted Thinking ("create the next opportunity") or extraverted iNtuiting (wishful thinking), or introverted Feeling ("I want her in spite of everything").

*** I want to lean into your Ni some more. What else does it "just know"? Is this relationship right for you?

*** Here's an exercise: imagine a dear friend calls you out of the blue and lays this very same problem at your feet and asks your advice. What advice would you give that friend? (Speak from your heart, share your deepest wisdom.)


Where the hell am I going with this, anyway? This is just crazy!! But if she eventually comes around, and says "yes" then doesn't that make it "our" craziness? What a fun relationship!!

*** Are you stretching to "get" something you perhaps shouldn't even have? I wonder... Perhaps it is about the conquest.

*** Another coaching question seems to be around relationship. What do you WANT from a relationship? (Another book idea -- I haven't read it but folks have recommended it -- "Marry Yourself First")

vj: Certainly it sounds like "wishful thinking" about wanting her to be "N" not "S" -- perhaps in spite of evidence to the contrary.

w: Mmmm. I think the evidence is there, but I am not doing a very good job of communicating it. I can describe the S part, because as you have pointed out, she has in fact become my Aphrodite (I like greek mythology... I will stick with the sexy-- and attainable-- goddess theme). I have already placed her on a pedestal and am describing her to you ... it is a little more difficult to present "evidence" of "N"ing. How do i present abstract evidence?

*** Look for this: Extraverted iNtuiting: Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts. Frequent brainstorming.

*** But I think that's too hard, myself. I'd seek out the Temperament pattern, myself. Is she a dress or a pair of pants? That's a surer compass.

vj: Uh, where are you located again? Maybe I need a vacation.

*w: Baltimore. Come on down, Princess.

*** See you in July. (The APTi conference is being held at the inner harbor this year.)

*w: So... if I understand you correctly, What we have established is that "N" is for iNtelligent and "S" is for Stupid. I got it.

LOL- (just kidding) I think we have driven this point in the ground. I believe you, I am with you, so let's quit stereo-typing and just put everyone into Type boxes instead (ROFL).

*** I don't want to get everybody into "type boxes" -- but I would like to identify the pattern accurately.

Seriously, I get it. And I very much respect the field.

*** I appreciate your respect. ;-)

w: My best friend growing up is an ESFP. I didn't see or speak to him since I was 12 years old, but when I was in Gulf Shores, Alabama a few years ago, stopped by his house, and we picked up like we never left off. It was an amazing experience. We still keep in touch every couple of months. I always liked being around him, particularly as a child, because he always knew all the cool places to be, how to act, and how to have fun. It was always much fun being around him. I confess, we would not be friends today if we met, becuase we are soooooo different. We simply do not not run around in the same circles. He is very successful as a self-employed contractor, although he has trouble managing his books. He also was in federal prison for 3 year several years ago. I guess he had some life experiences teach him a few things.

vj: And how did you learn his preferences?

*w: I tested him on one of our trips together. And I can see you *wincing* at me.

w: Also, Aphrodities friend who has set up the night out for the three of us soon, she is an ESFP. I have her for a relief to place Aphrodite against.

vj: And how did you learn her preferences?

*w: I tested her the same time that I tested Aphroditie. I didn't want it to look like I was targeting just Aphroditie. They both thought they were helping me debug my program. And I made sure that I debugged my program with their responses, but I didn't need to.

vj: The only thing you state (without backing it up with any solid evidence or anecdotes) is that you *think* she prefers "N."

w: I still think it.

vj: I get that you don't "think" it -- you "feel" it. (And that's why I have been expressing concern. If you could "think" it, you would probably have the logic and the articulation for it.)

w: I just know that I can prove it at this time. I think I need a night out with her to know. It is the only way we can have a meaningful conversation. Otherwise I cannot get that much insight into her.

vj: Now I'm hearing your need for Ni manifest. It craves more Se data to stimulate insights.

*w: So, this is how this works.

*** Yeppers. There are what we call "tandem processes." In the DomNi pattern, it seems that Se stimulates Ni. And... likewise, Ni eventually stimulates Se. It's our "conjunctio" -- our "spine of integrity." You can only *imagine* possessing this Aphrodite for so long before feeling you MUST make it real. Making it real fulfills your integrity.

--
*w: We went out on a little *social* last night-- just a couple of her girlfriends and myself for about 30 minutes. The jury is still out. I need a conversation with *HER*.

vj: Yes! Do not jump to conclusions! And I am pushing you to support your hypothesis about her type.

w: Still collecting data. Will share it with you as soon as I can.

*** I look forward to more data. ;-)

vj: Here are a couple of distinctions for you to collect data on.
Does she seem to have better skills at:
Diplomatic Synthesis OR Tactical Variation?
(Care to guess which is which pattern?)

*w: Before last night, I would have said Diplomatic Synthesis, but now I am not as sure. I still lean toward diplomatic synthesis, because Aphrodite set all of this up-- in between two other events she was attending. And it was all about having the correct people at each event-- I think so that certain people wouldn't feel uncomfortable. I think she is not as good on tactical variation, because the timing was WAY off for our event, so we were all late, and didn't have much time together, but I confess I don't think I have seen her have to "shift gears" or "respond" in that way. Plus, she did say one thing that made me not feel so comfortable, but I don't know that she even knew she was doing it. I think her friend, the one that helped set this up, and that tested out as an ESFP did pick this up, and seemed a little perturbed, but it was just one comment, and was all VERY subtle. Like, I might even be imagining it, but I don't think so.

I think diplomatic synthesis means something like "linking the interests of all parties into an acceptable, coherent, organized set of priorities", where I would guess tactical variation means something like, "changing ones approach to affect a desired outcome". Diplomatic Synthesis involves abstract planning, tactical variation requires a knowledge or intuition of different processes that may work to affect a given situation. Am I right? I also think diplomatic synthesis is an Ne function, where tactical variation is an Se function. Se is the dominant function for how ESFP views the world, where Ne is the dominant function for how ENFP views the world.

I still lean toward diplomatic synthesis.

*** I'm not feeling entirely comfortable with your definitions. For one thing, it seems that you are conflating some displomatic synthesis with Strategic Analysis.

*** Diplomatic synthesis:
Stepping into the world view of someone else and working to get all sides to truly understand each other. Building bridges between people. Having empathy. Unify by undersanding and resolving deeper issues. Communicate with symbols and metaphors that can be linked to the past, present, or future. Tend to clarify values, mission, and meaning. (Not very useful skill for a store clerk, btw.)

*** Tactical Variation:
Tactics involves knowing what action needs to be taken NOW to get to a future desired result. Good at reading the current sitution, then skillfully managing the situation in order to effect a desired result. Taking action according to the needs of the moment, and planning the next moves. Expedient. To cleverly display, compose, and perform with attention to impact and effect. (Reminds me of the cat with a grasshopper that I alluded to above.)

*** There's more. It's also in the green Temperament book by Dr. Berens.

--
w: I have read about the "NT/NF Death Spiral". Now that I know what it is, I can recognize it and avoid it.

vj: LOL!

Bring me *that* conversation when you're in a place to have it. ;-D

*w: Ok. But it may not happen with this one. It might be another one. I hope it is this one.

vj: The core values for all Catalysts are for meaning & significance, and having a unique identity.
vj: The core values for all Improvisers are for having the freedom to act--now, and an ability to make an impact.

*w: I still can't say on these two. I didn't see either preference manifest itself, except for the unique identity thing. She was going to a concert afterwards, and she was dressed up. She looked VERY nice.

*** "Displayed, composed, and performed with attention to impact and effect"??

vj: What I make up is that the two of you are stimulated around extraverted Sensing together. ;-)

w: I am still thinking on this one.

vj: I appreciate your diligence.

*w: Thank you. But, it may just be me stimulated around Se.

*** LOL. That sounds like some insightful self-honesty.

--
vj: Not sure what you mean? (Not sure it's important...)

w: In highschool, Kim was very intoxicating for me. She was an NF. It was the best relationship I ever had, but we were both very inexperienced with relationships. I think I got spoiled. I have not been able to find anything close to that feeling until now. The feelings are similar, but not the same.

vj: And how did you come to know Kim's type?

*w: weelllll..... I pulled out Kiersey and Bate's book, ran down the questions, and answered them for her based off of how I thought she would answer 12 years after we dated in highschool. The S/N thing was really the only one I thought was tough, so I read through those profiles until I was comfortable with which one I thought she was.

And I see you *wincing* again. You have a right too. Please don't be mad at me. I have no other way of know what type made me happy. Besides, we dated for 3 years.

*** I'm not mad, for pete's sake.

*** Honestly, you're doing it the way most people do -- probably MORE scrupulously! Thank heavens you've hung around long enough to realize it's all much more complex and sophisticated than it looks on the surface.

vj: I wondere whether perhaps if you lived with the "giant N" for a number of years you would begin to find it "too much," but that the intoxication in the beginning is very seductive. (Did we just come full circle?)

*w: I think I can "Giant N" by myself. I want to "Super N". I do see where you are coming from. You have the experience in that type of relationship. I do not.

*** So far I don't know that I'm hearing "Super N." I think I'm hearing "Super S." ;-P

--
vj: So let's play with *your* pattern. Are YOU better at
Diplomatic Synthesis OR Strategic Analysis ?
(because I gotta say your diplomatic skills are pretty sophisticated. I don't have ANY urge to suggest you suffer from Asperger's. :-P)

*w: Ok, let's play. Strategic Analysis. Everything is like a big chess board, and Diplomacy is just a tool as a means to an end for me. I completely suck at executing tactics, or even having a clue what tactics there are that gets me the results I want, although I have gotten a little better.

*** I'm starting to see the INTJ "grid" start to light up. Definitely pants -- Levi's jeans or Dockers maybe. ;-)

I am curious, though. Why do you say my diplomatic skills are sophisticated? I never thought they were, really.

*** Technically, I should have said your social skills were evolved. That's a different thing altogether, really. I misspoke myself.

*** What I was truthfully noticing is that you seemed to be very considerate about my feelings. So I was wondering if you were a mis-typed INFJ -- of which I have met MANY. So I was checking out that possibility.

*** (I'm pretty convinced.)

It is only after being in the corporate world for a number of years that I have had to recognize and use diplomacy regularly. And usually, I am seething mad when I have too, because I feel like I am getting screwed!!

*** My guess is that there is some confusion and conflation around these terms that could be sorted out. Your diplomatic skills are probably stronger than you realize, but you don't define them according to the model yet. Technically, you are probably being "screwed" over SF. You miss details with your lack of Sensing skills. You miss feeling transactions with your lack of extraverted Feeling skills. (I doubt anyone ever gets the drop on your Thinking or iNtuiting.)

Also, I have had a lot of hurt in my life, so I try to be cognizant of other's feelings when I can. Particularly when money is involved. Especially MY money.

*** I think we could delve into this further to gain more clarity. What I know is that Jung said whenever we suffer "affect" (emotions), it is because of being "unadapted." So you get to look at those experiences as development opportunities!

Also, the Southern thing. I grew up experiencing it. Flattery gets you everywhere when you are young. And, as I have discovered, it feels good when you are older. Also, when it is sincere, it is the best. So I keep it as a comfort, a tool, and a weapon. Also, we grew up in a fundamental church going family, where what was "just" was encouraged, even if it meant going to someone you have wronged and apologizing. We kept disputes out of courts. As i got older, I realized that if you wanted justice, you'd better try to create it yourself, or between you an the person who had wronged you (or you them). A court only renders a decision. It may not be just. Justice is respected. So diplomacy must include some semblance of justice (for all).

*** Suffice it to say that Beebe has stated that I_TJs have a "hidden gentlemanliness" that he attributes to Tertiary introverted Feeling. And I bet if I scratched a bit, I could find evidence of "trickster" extraverted Feeling. Probably "flattery" is challenging in this respect. It may seem deceptive to use or receive.

Finally, the only bit of ethics I learned in school sums up my philosophy on it.

"It is OK to treat someone as a means-to-an-end, SO LONG AS you ALSO treat them as an end-in-themselves."

I think Kant or someone wrote it.

*** I'm liking that. It seems to be a diplomatic perspective.

*** I'm betting this little principle also saves you a heap of aggravation around using Fe in a tactical way.

--
w: I like the thought of experiencing a freedom from rationality (but only temperarily), and going with the flow.

*** I hear this from a lot of Theorists. They are soooo rational all the time that they LONG for those times when they can lose control. And since everyone is attracted to others for what they lack in themselves, they are often attracted to completely irrational people. (How else can we explain Bill & Hilary?)

*** I prescribe a slate of wild parties, and perhaps a regular diet of rollercoasters at amusement parks. Paintballing might be good too, as long as you make a point of doing something stupid frequently.

*** ;-D

*** If I were your coach, I would make that your homework. Make a list of 25 irrational, go-with-the-flow activities you could do, and start scheduling them. (no kidding)

vj: Darlin', I feel for you. I really do. (I'm also a little bit jealous. I remember what it used to feel like to want someone That Much. It makes you feel really alive, doesn't it? ;-D)

*w: Yes, it does make me feel alive. Even when it hurts, it is better than feeling nothing. Which is what I have felt for a very long time. I would rather feel joy, and it not hurt.

*** So I wonder if this whole experience is intended to teach you the value of FEELING. Hmmm....?

--
vj: After we get you through this crisis, maybe we can have fun comparing INTP with your pattern.

*w: Your on. I do test more closely to P these days than i used to. I have a whole story about why, and the implications and changes that have taken place in my life. I still believe I am on the J side, though.

*** See above. We are ALL OF US both J & P, as a technicality. All the letter means In The Code is which one you prefer to show the outer world.

*** In a nutshell, do you prefer things to be decided or left undecided? That's about the only way to accurately define whether a J or P belongs in your code. (Note careful choice of language!)

vj: I imagine you already have impressed her -- or not! ;-D

*w: After last night, I think not. I am eating my heart out, I am soooo jealous!!!

vj: LOL. Keep us posted?

*w: Ok. I will.

*LATEST UPDATE** Fri nite was... well... curious. She asks me out to a bar and grill, w/her friend that works with her. She says she will call me later and let me know when. So, around 8:30pm, when I had given up and was getting in the shower, she calls, and tells me where the place is. So I get there about 9:20pm, walk in, and the bar is full, but they are not there. So I have a beer while I wait. Then, about 9:40pm, she and another friend show up, and Aphrodite looked GOOD. REALLY good. I didn't know it, but her friend she works with that helped set this up was in the other room waiting on all of us at a table with her daughter. The dynamics were interesting. I think her friend she works with was tired and a little perturbed that she was sooo late. But it was VERY subtle, so i couldn't be sure of the underlying tones. So, we are there for about 10 minutes, Aphrodite and her friend that showed up with her are making plans to go to some club/concert, and she asks me if I want to go, just before her friend looks at her, and then Aphrodite looks at me and says, "Not your scene" and I think, "huh?" I think her friend that works with her was a little agrivated about this, but I don't know. Maybe it was just me. So we all leave after 10 more minutes, and I go home and go to bed. Just after I eat my heart out. But it is ok, because I still had some left for breakfast. But without milk. :o(

So, Sunday, I walk in the store (I stop to buy gasoline), and while she is waiting on me at the counter, she asks what movie i would like to see. And I think, "huh?" So I said, "huh?" And she says she would like to go to a movie with me, I needed to pick which movie I wanted to see. So I asked for her number, and told her I would have to think about it, that I didn't know what was playing.

So, now, we are going to the movies sometime this week to watch Pirates III-- she wants to dress up in her pirate gear (which I am both amused at and think it is kind of cute). I don't know if this is a group thing, or just us.

I think I might have been manipulated!?! (I think I might also be angry, but i cannot tell yet. i want to see where all of this is going)

Now we are txt msging each other. Just chit chat.

*** I wonder whether you are still remembering to breathe? ;-P

vj: Oh dear. I have the crappiest thing to tell you then. Beebe says that DomNi types are NOTORIOUS for Missing Opportunities. :-(

vj: :-(

*w: I know. I look back over my life, and realize I have missed soooooo maannyyyy opportunities. I still miss them. :o(

*** Yeah, I have some of those too. Coulda been a millionaire, sigh.

vj: What's that "inner voice" whispering to you?

*w: ??? "... build it, and they will come...?" Sorry, wrong voice... let's try again shall we?

"... Luke, Luke, you must go to the Degaba System, and there you will find .... "

Sorry, wrong one, still.

vj: I trust that voice -- the wise voice. (Not the fearful, ego-driven voice. YOU know the one I mean.)

*w: Oh, yeah. That one!! Ok. Great, you've given me my Ni license!

*** LOL. You had that license LONG before I came around.

*w: Hmmm... My voice tells me:

Ne "Her feelings toward me haven't really developed yet, because she doesn't really know me. There is a distance she keeps herself from me. She is distrustful, but no decision has been made." Ne

*** It seems to me Ni would "just know" that "no decision has been made." The other part sounds more Ne, since it's about possibilities, possible outcomes.

Ti "If I keep stripping away her defenses, gently, one layer at a time, she's mine." Ti

*** Ti? Sounds more like Te perhaps. :-/

Ni "She is either in a relationship that is bad or is going nowhere." Ni (<-- that could be the ego one, not sure)

*** Sounds like more Ne (possibilities/wishful thinking).

Ne/Si "She still lives with her parents, and works a job that is her first job. She appears to spend all of her money on having fun." Ne/Si

*** Sounds like Si or Se. The Ne part would be, "and so that would mean _______ ."

Ni "This cannot be good. If we end up together, doesn't that make it 'our money' she is spending. And if her earning potential is low, doesn't that mean I am earning most of 'our money'. Am i really willng to take that on?" Ni

*** Fi. Values. (Good/bad) "Is that important to me?" Te="money is a measure of success" & cost/benefit analysis

Ni/Fe "I wonder if she is mentally/emotionally developed out far enough in other areas that are not yet apparent to me so that I will not *damage* her growth" Ni/Fe

*** Ne/Fi?? (Ne="I wonder" and Fi="do no harm"?? Could be Fe="considering others")

Ni "Then again, isn't that part of living life?" Ni

*** Ti underlying principle?

Ni/Fe "How will letting someone in my life who may not be fully mature emotionally/mentally weigh on other aspects and people in my life? How will it affect her? How will it affect me?" Ni/Fe

*** Primarily Ni -- trying on different frames, running scenarios.

Ni "What if I get her. Then worry about the other problems later. We can work through them. All relationships have problems that must be worked through" Ni

*** Ne. ("What if...") Si. ("All relationships have problems that must be worked through" -- based on "past" knowledge, or might be a Ti framework??)

Ti "What, are you CRAZY??? She has no money, no work experience, very little "life" experience, what the hell are you thinking?" Ti

*** Te and Fi? "Measuring" and "valuing"?

Te "Fine, we do it this way. I'm quitting my job anyway, and going back to school to work on my Ph.D. next year. She just goes with me, gets a 4 year degree while we are there. Now, she is in a position for higher earning potential and has fully emotionally/mentally developed through a college experience. In the mean time it gives us a chance to grow together and have a wonderful life." Te

*** Ni scenarios along with Te "segmenting/measuring." (I especially notice the Te "codependence" of arranging for her 4-yr degree without even knowing if she wants that. Just "fix" that annoying little problem.) A little Fi egocentricity does not go unobserved.

Fi "Man, you're not even emotionally mature yet, are you?" Fi

*** Fe calling you on the egocentricity.

Ni "GREAT!! It means WE fit well together. We can GROW in a relationship as we should!!" Ni

*** Te rationalizing? 2+2 = 4??

Fe "Yeah, and what does her family say, bonehead?" Fe

*** Fe or Fi, I'm not sure. Are you worried about her family's feelings, or about the impact of their feelings on YOU?

Ni "Man, we are just SPECULATING, now. Damn, let us get a fix on the possibilities first, THEN if she is interested we can address those problems after we know the real situation!!" Ni

*** Ne = "speculating." Knowing the "real situation" --?? Se? Si?

Se "Is she interested? i.e., is she on board with this?" Se

*** Fe? Considering others' feelings?

Ne "Not yet... but if we play our cards right, and YOU don't screw it up, she might be..." Ne

*** Fe / Ne / Si?

Se "Yeah, but you can't start specualting outside the bounds of the REAL situation, you have to start in-bounds!" Se

*** Si ?? (The "facts" of the situation?)

Ni "Shut up!!!" Ni

*** A demonic outburst? (Don't WANT to access that nasty Si.)

Se "No!" Se

*** Hm, not sure? Might be Si, Te, Se.

Ni "Yes!!!" Ni

*** Ni. Dominant process and ego trying to regain control.

Se *blink* Se

*** All the other processes stunned, deciding whether to cooperate.

Se "no." Se

*** Probably Se "mutiny." (It aspires to be the dominant.)

Ti "Fine. I need to know how to ACT and BEHAVE if she is interested. Besides, if I don't try, how else can I GET her interested?" Ti

*** Ne -- "IF" combined with Fe? (What does she need/want from me?) Might also be looking for a Ti "framework" to rely on or Te maneuver.

Se "Man, you got so many other hurdles to get out of the way first!" Se

*** Ni calling on Te to remove "hurdles"?

Ni "Fine, ya'll go work on those... I'm going over here to work on the possibilities of getting HER. That's teamwork." Ni

*** Ne? (possibilities)

Se "Your not the boss!!" Se

*** Fi understanding the "politics" of your psyche.

Ni "Neither are you!" Ni

*** A Te riposte.

Ni " N = iNtelligent, S = Stupid!!" Ni

*** Fe getting petty, namecalling.

Se "You are sooooo mature!!" Se

*** Fi getting petulant back

Ne/Se "Look, she has asked us to the movies. Let's just go and see what happens." Ne/Se

*** Se (experiencing and acting in the immediate context)

everyone else "Ok."

*** All conceding that this is probably the process most appropriate to the current situation.

Ni "Just don't fu***k it up for us, Se!!!" Ni

*** Ego's painful Si awareness of inferiority complex.

--

vj: I'm curious now. Why did you visit previously? What brought you there? (I'm still trying to get my bearings online, and figure out how to develop my practice.)

*w: I think I visited because google brought you up on page two or something. I don't remember what I was looking for specifically. Maybe more in depth stuff on MBTI and Keirsey temprament. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, because I was at work at the time. It was on my lunch break and I was collecting information for books to read, etc. I would be interested in helping you develop your practice. Let me know what I can do to help. Check your Msg box on your Tribe account. If you don't think I have quite lost all of my marbles yet.

*** As I often tell my husband, I KNOW you have lost all your marbles. Nevertheless, I will check. ;-)

vj: It seems to me from over here that a better job for you is to APPRECIATE her being the FUN GIRL. To value and admire that. Honor and appreciate it.

*w: *blink* Oh.

vj: Look, if I'm a good singer, do I want somebody else to come onstage and start singing? Or do I want somebody to applaud and tell me what a great singer I am, and how nobody else has ever sung like me before, and it brought tears to your eyes?

*w: ...uuhhmmmmm.... I choose (b) applaud and tell you what a great singer you are. I will leave off the crying part, it might not be the best aphrodesiac in my case.

*** LOL.

vj: In similar fashion, what are you brilliant at? What do you want people to admire in you?

*w: We will have to have a real conversation on that one! ;o) It might suprise you. In short, though, I want people to think of me as smart, innovative, and of great Character. Even having overcome great adversity. But also, as a great human being, who can be a really great friend.

*** So shall I admire that in you, or should I tell you that I'm all those things myself?? (Doesn't that have a dismissive tone to it? =8-O)

vj: In a nutshell, it's common for people to marry their admirers.

*w: Yes, this is good advice.

--

vj: Are you sure you have INTJ prefs? Have you ever tried on INFJ? ;-P

w: I am sure I am INTJ. I can say that I have learned through a lot of trial and error what works romantically. I have grown much myself in this area. I like thinking about it.

*** I wasn't too sure between dress and pants until now, but I'm feeling greater confidence with the pants. This last exchange has helped me see the INTJ "grid" lit up over there. I particularly gained a sense that you really KNEW how to wield Strategic intelligence, in comparison to seeming hesitant about diplomatic and tactical intelligences. Plus the evidence of "codependent Te." Those were very clear messages to me to pair with your semi-unconscious use of Ni.

vj: I have some great self-discovery programs that reeeeally crack open insights about type in a highly structured format. People come away with a profound sense of who they are and what they bring to the world more than anything they've previously experienced. (Yes, that's a commercial.)

vj: Seriously... I love this work, because I've seen people TRANSFORM through working with me. To receive full permission to be who they are, and honor their values, and take a stand -- what could be better?

*w: I KNOW you love this work. I have been SEEING that in you. You make ME love your work. And you for it. Might quit my job and join ya if I didn't already have something else planned out. Let me know if I can help you in any way. Check your tribe MSG box.

*** Going there next.

vj: So.... what's the learning in this experience for you? (And it's okay if you don't wish to share it here.)

*w: ..mmmm.... I think I like you. You seem to be very intelligent, and very knowledgable in your field. Your dynamics with me are good. I think mine are good with you. So, it makes it fun. On this topic, you have been someone I could extravert to, and get intelligent insights back. I do not have ANY friends I can talk to about this stuff. I have few friends. Most of them are left over from my childhood and college, and live MILES away.

*** Awwwww... Now I feel like I was fishing for compliments. I *am* gratified to hear this, thanks!

*** What I was meaning, however, was what is the learning in this Aphrodite experience so far?

*w: Where i want to go with my life, I must loose all fear, or at least not be paralyzed by it from making the right choices. Otherwise I will fail. I could give you a speech on courage, but I won't. You have been around the block enough, I'm sure you know more about it than I do.

*** A wise person taught me that it's not about whether or not you have fear or ever fail. It's about how fast you RECOVER from your stumbles that counts. Winston Churchill is quoted as saying, "Success is going from failure to failure quickly, with no loss of enthusiasm."

*** This is what appeals to me about coaching others. To support them in achieving their aspirations is nirvana!

vj: Perhaps it's keeping you distracted from the panic of not knowing what else to do? So maybe it's effective as a stalling tactic until your Venus plays her cards.

*** Status report??

-Vicky Jo
www.TypeInsights.com

Almost a year long? Wow. This sounds like a movie, You've Got Mail or something (btw that Meg Ryan - total ENFP!). Just don't be surprised if he doesn't embrace the idea of a relationship right away. I'm not saying he wouldn't go for it, but it could be that he never pursued it because of the wall or some other inhibition, and for whatever reason didn't think you felt the way you do and thus got used to just being friends. So he may be surprised and need some time to fully absorb the reality of the situation and reconceptualize the notion of his friendship with you. Or you two may fall madly in love and live happily ever after, who knows! ;)