http://intj.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#4b83b5c7-fcfe-4df4-80e1-567f550bb2c8 Meghan go for it.. Sat, 31 Oct 2009 19:57:11 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#4b83b5c7-fcfe-4df4-80e1-567f550bb2c8 Lilly 2009-10-31T19:57:11Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#cd3277c4-829d-4cea-b1dd-ad62d66ed483 I am in school for a bachelors with psychology and 2 majors french and criminal justice. On a whole college is money making bulls**t there is no reason it should take me ten years to go into a field that will expect something different than what I was taught. (which happens) Put me in the field and let me learn hands on.(Done venting) lol Sat, 31 Oct 2009 19:55:53 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#cd3277c4-829d-4cea-b1dd-ad62d66ed483 Lilly 2009-10-31T19:55:53Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#93c1e205-f017-4894-98b8-fdba2a74b838 I graduated back in May 2008 with a Bachelor of Environmental Design (Architectural Studies). I worked as an architectural intern, until I had the unfortunate experience of being laid off (they let go of 4 of us interns... last hired...first fired...that sort of thing I guess). Really tore up my confidence, as I am used to being in complete control of my success, and am used to seeing my hard work pay off in some form of achievement. Instead, I felt like a failure. I began questioning my plan to become an architect as far back as my sophomore year in college, so the lay-off wasn't the first time I began considering other paths. Now I am in this awkward phase of life... I am 23... am well-educated but under-experienced... and am trying to find my next job in an awful economy. I'd try another architectural internship, but unfortunately the field was hit hard. Right now I'm working on a piece of public art that's due in September (it's a mosaic). Once that's done, it'll be back to hard-core job hunting again. I'm having a problem settling on just one direction though. I love art and design. However, architecture is definitely not the glamorized profession all outsiders deem it to be. It's made me crave a profession that is more based on art itself, rather than all the BS that goes into construction. I am seriously considering medical illustration, as drawing has always been my number one favorite thing...and my favorite subject matter is human anatomy. We'll see though. Wed, 26 Aug 2009 07:57:04 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#93c1e205-f017-4894-98b8-fdba2a74b838 Meghan 2009-08-26T07:57:04Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#f210b753-61b7-4be6-97ba-1d2285bdc215 Funny, I do my best thinking when I'm in a creative mode Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:00:09 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#f210b753-61b7-4be6-97ba-1d2285bdc215 coco 2009-08-05T19:00:09Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#66b743f8-9371-457f-84d0-7329e5afdb57 I think it's safe to say you've demonstrated the projection of a shadow in these posts, excellent demonstration here have a midol. Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:54:26 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#66b743f8-9371-457f-84d0-7329e5afdb57 Peter 2009-06-19T10:54:26Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#f00f144a-3e86-4bb7-9953-f1547d181ce0 That's true. I do my best thinking during long walks. I don't need to retire to Florida for that though. Like you, I would much rather be working on an advanced degree or research project than vegetating on a beach chair with my best days behind me. Plenty of time to rest when I'm dead. Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:05:47 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#f00f144a-3e86-4bb7-9953-f1547d181ce0 MrSpock 2009-04-21T13:05:47Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#150e8f25-65df-4115-a75c-7266a5da8cd8 I couldn't disagree more MrSpock........walking the beach for an hour or two is for me the place where my thoughts can run free. Two BA's, one in art and one in literature. Working on a masters in humanities of the city that finds me often working out paper ideas on long beach walks. Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:51:19 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#150e8f25-65df-4115-a75c-7266a5da8cd8 Laurel 2009-04-21T04:51:19Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#58698e97-5e31-4490-b825-8e4baec03f92 A "thirst for knowledge" is a core temperament need for NTs, also known as "Theorists." :-) Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:43:17 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#58698e97-5e31-4490-b825-8e4baec03f92 Vicky Jo 2009-04-20T17:43:17Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#7228ed2d-de53-4a97-b32c-cf1feaf7e8c6 Navit, I think that is an innate quality of the INTJ personality - a thirst for knowledge. I do not picture myself ever retiring to a beach. It would be boring after the first week or so. For the record, I have a Master's degree in a technical field and am considering going back for a PhD after 30 years out in the marketplace. Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:46:50 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#7228ed2d-de53-4a97-b32c-cf1feaf7e8c6 MrSpock 2009-04-20T12:46:50Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#1149f7e9-17e6-4221-92b5-52e61159e8fe I have a Masters degree in physics, and I'm going to start a Ph.D.. But it doesn't mean that I do not relate to the many of you who professed to take their education to their own hands. I do that too. I study music, philosophy and psychology as a hobby. Sometimes I feel that this thirst for knowledge is an endless struggle. Maybe I would be better off just slumping on the beach. But I can not help it. I draw satisfaction and confidence from thinking and learning things. Have you ever questioned your thirst for knowledge? Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:24:10 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#1149f7e9-17e6-4221-92b5-52e61159e8fe navit 2009-04-20T10:24:10Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#07fb4e3f-4f63-4f4c-afa1-8708985a393a I am currently completing a BA in Criminology and Criminal Justice. I find it fascinating. Originally, I wanted to do psychology but I was forced to change my plan, because I hadn't originally realised how much statistics are involved in the degree. I am not very good at maths, at all :p Probably doesn't help also that I hate maths, it's about as boring for me as watching paint dry. So, I decided to do Criminology because I wanted to do something in the Social Sciences, and Criminology seemed to offer the best options career wise. After I finish my BA, I will be completing a Masters degree in the same field also. Sat, 18 Apr 2009 04:42:14 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#07fb4e3f-4f63-4f4c-afa1-8708985a393a Peta 2009-04-18T04:42:14Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#e95eb42b-11b7-40b9-9fb6-b2d424b394a5 Hm, good points. It's not that I'm incapable of lecturing (ha!) It's that lecturing is not coaching and that's an important distinction. I don't have any pretensions that I'm coaching on these boards (although it often works out that way, when someone has an "aha" moment by reading one of my messages). I strive to practice maieutics. :-D Let's just say that not everybody responds well to being asked for the empirical evidence to demonstrate their type code. The majority of folks I encounter on these boards took a free quiz and want to accept it at face value without doing any validity work. I admit that does get up my nose (as you saw recently here). :-P -Vicky Jo Thu, 16 Apr 2009 04:57:54 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#e95eb42b-11b7-40b9-9fb6-b2d424b394a5 Vicky Jo 2009-04-16T04:57:54Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#a3110abe-de94-4871-b36e-7db5a23b7c9a Hmm... but you do "like" to educate (or sometimes lecuture). And I am perfectly content to listen to it. I like to learn. I may not buy into everything you say all the time, but I do always delight in the energy you seem to radiate while doing it. And I have learned much from you. Even some things you may not be aware of... :oP Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:42:21 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#a3110abe-de94-4871-b36e-7db5a23b7c9a Wyatt 2009-04-15T23:42:21Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#3050e508-ed8c-44ef-a072-a0769c09bde6 Wyatt, um, I don't "educate" clients -- I help them discover their own inner wisdom. Coaching is not advising, coercing, preaching. :-P I'm not that fussed that he cancelled on me -- it happens all the time. This is the 21st century after all. I'm simply highlighting a particular aspect to demonstrate that INTJ is not just an abstract concept or some kind of "foolish consistency." I shared him as an example so that you could "measure" yourself against that behavior, and notice the MISmatch. In that MISmatch is where type lives. It was a learning piece for you. So in that respect, I suppose I do "educate" -- and nevertheless I hope you discovered the truth for yourself, not from me lecturing you. (As if any lecturing would be likely to make a dent anyway. :-P) -Vicky Jo PS: And yes, he would benefit tremendously from my coaching. :-) Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:53:19 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#3050e508-ed8c-44ef-a072-a0769c09bde6 Vicky Jo 2009-04-15T22:53:19Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#6a743fd4-092e-4f87-9cd5-8f9218b60bc3 >> I can see blowing me off; I can see cancelling; I can see screwing up the date and time even -- but to tell me "my type's not good with dates n times" as a REASON -- rilly? Rilly rilly??? << This really gets under your skin doesn't it...? Is it the cancellation that bothers you (because you believe he shouldn't do that), or the reason he gave you for it that you apparently don't agree with (you apparently do not believe he is INTJ)? Wouldn't that be a great opportunity, telling you he needs to be educated by you? That IS what you do, isn't it? Sounds like you have work to do on him.... wouldn't you be delighted? >> Invent just one hypothetical situation where you might say such a thing that doesn't involve science fiction, dreams, or alternate universes. << I am cognizant that I make committments that I cannot keep sometimes, and it usually happens either when I am extremely stressed and trying to achieve more than I possibly can, or when I am extremely relaxed, trying to book things on impulse that I've always wanted to do. I may give an answer like that without putting much thought into it if I kept having other things "pop" up that I needed to do, and that meeting was lower on my priority list. >> I'm dying to hear it. << I hope not... I would like for you to be around awhile longer.... :o) >> -vjv (gotta run, but I feel sooo much better) << Good! I'm so glad you do! :oP Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:26:43 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#6a743fd4-092e-4f87-9cd5-8f9218b60bc3 Wyatt 2009-04-15T19:26:43Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#0ccc08b0-5536-4971-8bfd-b920d717916f ROFLMAO! Ogod I needed that laugh! Thank youuuuuuuuu!! For the record, the individual in question booked a strategy session with me, picked out the appointment time from my calendar himself, and then wrote to say ... whatever I wrote before. Was it "my type's not good with dates n times (intj)"?? Something like that. He wanted to reschedule, by the way -- I said "okay," and then he vanished. I can see blowing me off; I can see cancelling; I can see screwing up the date and time even -- but to tell me "my type's not good with dates n times" as a REASON -- rilly? Rilly rilly??? Invent just one hypothetical situation where you might say such a thing that doesn't involve science fiction, dreams, or alternate universes. I'm dying to hear it. -vjv (gotta run, but I feel sooo much better) Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:36:23 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#0ccc08b0-5536-4971-8bfd-b920d717916f Vicky Jo 2009-04-15T18:36:23Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#5339d450-2191-4902-aa49-db802aaff725 Crap! I can't do that to you... >> are you good with "dates n times"? << I KNOW when I am missing something, or late (late bothers me, missing doesn't usually, depends what it is). I don't do well with memorizing Civil War dates. Unless I'm interested in some aspect of it as a systemic battle strategy. Then I can tie it together and make sense of it, and know it without trying to memorize it.. >> how do you behave when you lack competence? do you ask for help, or go read a book/google it? << 1. I have learned the value of seeking help for efficiencies sake. I don't really "seek" help. I corral people whom I have respect for, build a solid case, set an agenda, and have them achieve the things I don't want to handle while I work on the things I do want to handle. I learned this from my kung fu training when I started using weapons, and discovered that they were MUCH more effective when you learned to wield them as an extension of your own body. i.e., one man can only handle one man his own size... but a man with a short staff can handle two, a long staff 3... But what I PREFER is below... 1. I look it up in a book, and usually I have one readily available to search broadly first, on many different meanings of it and ways or approaches for it. 2. Then I look it up in a few other books and gain knowledge on those particular methods. 3. Along the way, I may invent adn adopt a "hybrid" method of solving my problem. >> how self-reliant are you? << So self reliant that it scares me that I don't really have anyone around that is close to me if something really goes wrong. I haven't figured out a comfortable way to solve that problem yet. Only one other person has been in my house in the last 6 years. And she is someone I trust. >> would you agree or disagree that you are "independent-minded" with your thinking? << It doesn't matter how one gives it to me. I WILL form my own opinion and thoughts. >> how's your ADD? << I do not have ADD. I have something... else. I don't think I belong on this planet sometimes. At least not with 96.5% of the people on it. (notice I left room for the ENFP's ;oP) Sorry. I was supposed to be serious. And I was. Wed, 15 Apr 2009 04:27:33 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#5339d450-2191-4902-aa49-db802aaff725 Wyatt 2009-04-15T04:27:33Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#8e24d7a9-3a32-44cc-bf99-e22362425866 >> I'm procrastinating for just a few minutes here, so I'll throw a "fer instance" out to you. << Heh... Yes, I that's what I'm doing right now, too . Procrastinating... >> Last week I got an email from somebody who booked an appointment with me, and then wrote to cancel it due to a conflict, saying their type is bad with dates 'n times (intj). << How do you know they were telling the truth? What if if they decided they didn't want to spend the money, and just didn't want to hurt your feelings? If they felt pressure from you, or a sense of urgency or seriousness, they may have simply lied. >> If ever there was a red flag that someone does *not* have INTJ preferences, I think saying their type is bad with dates and times is probably a prime candidate. (Another flag is someone claiming to suffer from ADD.) << BAD with dates? As in FORGETS APPOINTMENTS, or as in Just doesn't SHOW UP because of overbooking, or new priorities, or both? I'm nearly always cognizant of what I am missing. I may choose to miss because of any of the above reasons, or be late. Or do you mean BAD AT MEMORIZING DEFINING DATES? Like War of 1812, so & so crossed such a river... (I'm terrible at that) >> INTJs have extraverted Thinking as their auxiliary process, which is *all* about being good with dates 'n times, << ... annnddd.... ranking and organziing... structuring... particularly agendas and strategic priorities >> and IN_Js in general tend to have a laser focus on whatever they do -- not ADD. << >> Which is not to say that occasionally INTJs can't be distracted, or flub a booking -- but it's a rare exception, not a rule. << Or they may skip it if they think it isn't important compared with other things. >> All personality models have a great deal of flexibility to them, and yet they are describing something pretty typical or they would be fairly useless to us. << I agree 100% >> Furthermore, INTJs prize mastery and self-control, so they are disinclined to give any "power" away regarding this aspect of themselves. If my INTJ husband feels the slightest twinge of incompetence around something, he will remedy it as fast as possible (or avoid it). Mind you, he doesn't typically ask for MY help around this. INTJs are THE most psychologically independent (independent-minded) of *all* the types. So he is self-reliant to a fault and beyond. (To the point of irritation in fact.) He has a hard time even asking me where the extra pickles are stored, because he's so much in the habit of figuring things out for himself, without anybody's help. It gets almost d*mn ridiculous. << Mind you, this is all UNconscious behavior. And that's what I'm looking for: the unconscious behaviors; the habits a person isn't even aware of. That's evidence of a type pattern. My husband doesn't sit in the corner and think, "I know! I'll annoy my wife today by not asking her where the extra pickles are stored!" and he doesn't say, "I didn't know there was a new development with the Datapack software; I'll go read up on it quickly before anybody knows I don't know!" -- he Just Does It. What's annoying is how he isn't even aware that he's doing that. (Well, annoying to me anyway. His manager loves it.) << That bit of conversation reminds me of someone.... else... >> These are the sort of habits I look for when I meet anyone who claims to have INTJ preferences. If they aren't demonstrating these habits (especially reflexive competence with "dates n times"), then I know something's awry, and 9 times out of 10, it has something to do with a pattern that doesn't fit. << You really like to spend a lot of time studying INxJ's... >> Every type has "signature" behaviors that betray their pattern. The key is around knowing what to look for (and most type users don't -- in fact, most users think the world is about "J's" and "Ps" and that stereotype doesn't work). << Easier to tell when you're in front of them... >> Let me flip it back to you now: << k... you can try... :o) >> are you good with "dates n times"? << I am VERY good. I am sexy, I date often, and usually we have a great time. :D >> how do you behave when you lack competence? << I have theorized that if I act EXACTLY like I behave when I HAVE competence, then no one would really know the difference when I DON'T. Now I just need an experiment to prove it out. >> do you ask for help, or go read a book/google it? << I would use my existing knowledge to invent my own new theory and write the book. Then use it. But that's assuming I lacked competence. Since I am competent, I don't need a book. Paradoxical, isn't it (if your competent, don't do anything, if your not, write a book and base everything on it... lol)? >> how self-reliant are you? << I gave birth to myself, AND the half that came out helped finish delivering the other half. (Technically, the half that accepted delivery is the weak me that needed help and couldn't be self reliant, the other half that helped do the delivering is the strong half that was SO self reliant there was some left over. So I guess it's a wash. But I did give birth to myself. How many people have done that? Hmmm?) >> would you agree or disagree that you are "independent-minded" with your thinking? << Whoa... we'll have NONE of that lil' lady... I neither agree, nor disagree... I betweenagree... Hmmm.... >squinting my eyes and walking away< >> how's your ADD? << Ya got me there. I can't do it. I can only subtract. :o( >> Perhaps your answers will demonstrate the dynamic of which I speak. << You mean that you will NOT think my humor is remotely funny, it will annoy you because you think it is obvious, and that I think it is hilarious? I bet what you think is funny most often are things that you think people "should" do that they do not... or they do something else instead... -VickyJo :-) ;oP Wed, 15 Apr 2009 04:10:15 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#8e24d7a9-3a32-44cc-bf99-e22362425866 Wyatt 2009-04-15T04:10:15Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#66daceec-85a7-46fb-9f60-586a0b4eb320 Wyatt, I'm procrastinating for just a few minutes here, so I'll throw a "fer instance" out to you. Last week I got an email from somebody who booked an appointment with me, and then wrote to cancel it due to a conflict, saying their type is bad with dates 'n times (intj). If ever there was a red flag that someone does *not* have INTJ preferences, I think saying their type is bad with dates and times is probably a prime candidate. (Another flag is someone claiming to suffer from ADD.) INTJs have extraverted Thinking as their auxiliary process, which is *all* about being good with dates 'n times, and IN_Js in general tend to have a laser focus on whatever they do -- not ADD. Which is not to say that occasionally INTJs can't be distracted, or flub a booking -- but it's a rare exception, not a rule. All personality models have a great deal of flexibility to them, and yet they are describing something pretty typical or they would be fairly useless to us. Furthermore, INTJs prize mastery and self-control, so they are disinclined to give any "power" away regarding this aspect of themselves. If my INTJ husband feels the slightest twinge of incompetence around something, he will remedy it as fast as possible (or avoid it). Mind you, he doesn't typically ask for MY help around this. INTJs are THE most psychologically independent (independent-minded) of *all* the types. So he is self-reliant to a fault and beyond. (To the point of irritation in fact.) He has a hard time even asking me where the extra pickles are stored, because he's so much in the habit of figuring things out for himself, without anybody's help. It gets almost d*mn ridiculous. Mind you, this is all UNconscious behavior. And that's what I'm looking for: the unconscious behaviors; the habits a person isn't even aware of. That's evidence of a type pattern. My husband doesn't sit in the corner and think, "I know! I'll annoy my wife today by not asking her where the extra pickles are stored!" and he doesn't say, "I didn't know there was a new development with the Datapack software; I'll go read up on it quickly before anybody knows I don't know!" -- he Just Does It. What's annoying is how he isn't even aware that he's doing that. (Well, annoying to me anyway. His manager loves it.) These are the sort of habits I look for when I meet anyone who claims to have INTJ preferences. If they aren't demonstrating these habits (especially reflexive competence with "dates n times"), then I know something's awry, and 9 times out of 10, it has something to do with a pattern that doesn't fit. Every type has "signature" behaviors that betray their pattern. The key is around knowing what to look for (and most type users don't -- in fact, most users think the world is about "J's" and "Ps" and that stereotype doesn't work). Let me flip it back to you now: are you good with "dates n times"? how do you behave when you lack competence? do you ask for help, or go read a book/google it? how self-reliant are you? would you agree or disagree that you are "independent-minded" with your thinking? how's your ADD? Perhaps your answers will demonstrate the dynamic of which I speak. -VickyJo :-) Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:00:18 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#66daceec-85a7-46fb-9f60-586a0b4eb320 Vicky Jo 2009-04-14T18:00:18Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#73c3b1bf-7828-4cc0-86ef-2c638ca46f3f they would need to test a few that are not INTJ's, too. May as well make it a study of the whole blooming TYPE spectrum. Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:04:02 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#73c3b1bf-7828-4cc0-86ef-2c638ca46f3f Wyatt 2009-04-13T23:04:02Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#6464cd1c-bfb6-43a6-a44f-6c93f4d32ba6 and if one is going to test a person's pattern through repeated play, then they really should test across different persons (all INTJ's) for the same play, so that we have a case for differences of play by the same person (with and without memory- we we would expect to see a difference in the cases with memory, and the ones without memory I would expect would be the same... unless it isn't... that is the real question, isn't it?), and also so we have a case ACROSS INTJ patterns. This will reveal the most about the reliability of pattern, both by the same person in repeated play, and across persons. Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:02:51 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#6464cd1c-bfb6-43a6-a44f-6c93f4d32ba6 Wyatt 2009-04-13T23:02:51Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#2fbca0a6-f0f5-40fa-bec6-27db38392567 >> Wyatt, I'm so glad you're amused. :-) << :o) >> I think I'm in a grouchy introvert space right now -- trying to get my book written. Feeling kinda like, "go away kid, and leave me alone." << Lol... my introvert space is never grouchy... except when I need it and I haven't been getting it... but even now I think I really am able to keep a lid on it, although some people can tell something is "wrong", but only those "some" that are close to me will know what it is... >> Being married to an INTJ and knowing as many of them as I do, I've come to expect a high degree of self-sufficiency and competence from your pattern. << Lol... really? I am flattered... but, I mean, it is just *that*, isn't it? In the end...? just a pattern... (i.e., something that is kind of recognizable after repeated play) and not one that is exactly followed all the time... i.e., on repeated play (if were to get to *reset* and play again), would we ALWAYS make the same choices? Or would they be *slightly* different? Or *alot* different? Not fair, is it? Well, the closest thing to it in the timeline we seem to be constrained by would be those *common, repeated theme" situations we find ourselves in. I know I am prone to "experiment" with different methods sometimes... playing a numbers gaime on the people situations I "mess up" until I get it right (or at least one or two versions of "right'). It may be true that INTJ's, as a pattern, like the theoretical competence, but we also like the applied competence. And we learn a lot by dialog, arguments, and verbalizing out what-if scenerios... i.e., somethings we will simple get wrong when we are in the learning process... i.e, no one is really "competent" until they "get" that way. And there being many avenues for "getting" that way, it has to happen somehow. (I really do understand what you are talking about when you say *pattern* though.. I beleive you are talking about the cognetive processes... but the same argument... does it mean we make that same choices every time if we start from the same place? does it make a differences if we retain memory of the last play?) >> INTJs rarely let on to what they don't know -- they just go read up on it and get competent all by themselves. << In some things, yes... keep in mind that the things we are curious about may be MUCH more than we have time for in reality... so those things we put priority on are what we would get competent at... the others just may be verbalized intuitions on the structure or meaning of certain subjects that never really go beyond that... >> I suppose it's a shadow issue for me to have frustrated expectations that everyone here will be like that. << Q1: Should one's knowlege of type produce a framework for placing expectations on people? Q2: Does it? Q3: is your judging orientation causing you to enter into the situation with a preconceived notion of how someone should behave? Well, what if they don't behave that way? Can you take it for what it is, and then reconstruct what must be going on to make it fit theory? (i.e., what if Mr. INTJ is really an INTJ, and something else is going on?) And if you can, can you also think of a way that presumptions can just be wrong, and it doesn't theory, so that the first premisese must be wrong? (i.e., what if Mr. INTJ simply isn't one because he tested himself wrong?) >> I won't lie to you though: it chafes my butt when I've devoted so much effort to learning about type, and then some hotshot floats in and claims they've licked the mystery in less than 24 hours -- that brings out my 'tude. << Yeah... Iknow waht you mean... it only took me 22.5 hours, and he thinks he's as good as I am... lol (just kidding... I in no way consider myself an expert on Type, nor do I claim to be) >> I know INTJs tend to avoid heat -- it's downright impressive how cool-headed INTJs can be. When I post to this tribe, I do my best to meet those standards. I missed the mark this time around. << Lol... aw... VJ, dont' be so hard on yourself... you contribute so much here... someone's got to set us all straight... lol (and it is a delight seeing your posts) >> I'm curious: how do you handle situations like that, when you feel like a steak that's up against sizzle? << Well, really it depends. If my technical prowess is challenged, and I feel I am right (and most of the time I do because I have invested much thought into it already), then the conflict itself doesn't really bother me. I am able to remain calm, and go through the points. If the other person gets confrontational, then I do tend to mirror it and escalate it. And I also apologize if it turns out later that I am wrong. I might not like that person, nor ever have anything to do with them again if I can help it (and if you have guessed, I AM thinking of a specific example.... a confrontation with ANOTHER INTJ... asshole... who was a very senior engineer and overloaded me with all of HIS work while I tried to HIS work AND MY work... and THEN blamed me because HE was falling behind... I gave him a piece of my mind... I don't blame people... at least I THINK I don't. I don't like to think that I do... I think he was under stress, only he's done it to other people, too). My personal relationships are different. People who are my close friends, or a lady I may have a relationship with, I try very hard not to be pulled into words or passion, because I know that words do hurt, and that what is said is not so easily erased. I try very hard to avoid those situatuions. When I argue in a relationship, I only do so by sticking to logical analysis, staying focused on the end results of what's at hand, and not accusing the other person or putting down their viewpoint. If the person has established a reputation with me of becoming passionately irate, then I do tend to back down, become agreeable, then simply go do my own thing when the tme comes. I.e., I may let the person think what they want, or on extreme occasions I have lied (which I do feel badly about, and I don't like it, so I try to steer away from that too... and I do distinguish between white lies and black ones, and as well, I distinguish what is good for my own mental health as opposed to what is bad for it, and try to stay true and eithical within those bounds). >> (maybe that should be a separate topic :-/ ) << Naa... it was fine here.... lol Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:44:04 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#2fbca0a6-f0f5-40fa-bec6-27db38392567 Wyatt 2009-04-13T02:44:04Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#a320f261-e1e5-443f-a3bc-689dcfdc746c Well, to get to graduate school, I needed to graduate college first and get a BA or BS. In my culture, college is just another step of education that almost everyone goes through, so not going would never have been an option. My major was political science, and really, college was a joke. Nowadays, I wish I had done engineering or something of the science-background instead. Oh well... the only thing that expensive paper was needed for was to get to graduate school anyways. It's already useless. Sun, 05 Apr 2009 19:09:32 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#a320f261-e1e5-443f-a3bc-689dcfdc746c $item.owner.firstName 2009-04-05T19:09:32Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#1a3a59a8-a3fe-45a0-940a-157bd15d687d Wyatt, I'm so glad you're amused. :-) I think I'm in a grouchy introvert space right now -- trying to get my book written. Feeling kinda like, "go away kid, and leave me alone." Being married to an INTJ and knowing as many of them as I do, I've come to expect a high degree of self-sufficiency and competence from your pattern. INTJs rarely let on to what they don't know -- they just go read up on it and get competent all by themselves. I suppose it's a shadow issue for me to have frustrated expectations that everyone here will be like that. I won't lie to you though: it chafes my butt when I've devoted so much effort to learning about type, and then some hotshot floats in and claims they've licked the mystery in less than 24 hours -- that brings out my 'tude. I know INTJs tend to avoid heat -- it's downright impressive how cool-headed INTJs can be. When I post to this tribe, I do my best to meet those standards. I missed the mark this time around. I'm curious: how do you handle situations like that, when you feel like a steak that's up against sizzle? (maybe that should be a separate topic :-/ ) Thu, 02 Apr 2009 05:23:10 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#1a3a59a8-a3fe-45a0-940a-157bd15d687d Vicky Jo 2009-04-02T05:23:10Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#89e70df4-ea7b-48c5-be4f-9d1aeb5d33e1 ya'll are really funny. Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:19:04 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#89e70df4-ea7b-48c5-be4f-9d1aeb5d33e1 Wyatt 2009-03-31T23:19:04Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#df7a17bf-46f1-42b8-922f-7b2d483b0388 give you power..? I was testing you to see what power you have. as I said, I know what I am, also, If It's unethical for you to tell somebody what type they are? It stands to reason that you can't tell me what I'm not. The fact that i'm stubborn makes me exraverted...? any way this is the end. Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:40:35 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#df7a17bf-46f1-42b8-922f-7b2d483b0388 Dion 2009-03-30T08:40:35Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#456f972c-7c71-4eb3-bb7c-7bfad59763e4 LOL! As if *any* INTJ would give me the power to say what they are. *NOT!* Furthermore.... 1) It's unethical for me to tell somebody what type they are. 2) I earn my living teaching about type and coaching people to honor and unfold their innate pattern 3) It's only by figuring it out for yourself that it has real value for you 4) Type is not an "ego-based psychology." So you may be attracted to INTJ, and want INTJ to fit you as a pattern because it suits the image you have of yourself -- but that doesn't mean it actually fits you as a pattern. Nevertheless..... partly because this conversation has spun around for what, 4 days now? -- for starters I'd advise you to consider extraversion as a possibility. :-) PS: If you come back again to tell me how wrong that is, it will pretty much confirm my hypothesis. :-) Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:44:29 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#456f972c-7c71-4eb3-bb7c-7bfad59763e4 Vicky Jo 2009-03-27T15:44:29Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#2c2df52c-5e24-4530-9be0-2812bcabc84b So what am I? Give me an answer. Also it was obvious you were testing me. Every profile of INTJ fits me, I know what I am like. I think I am an INTJ based on my character that SHOULD be enough. You have seen only a small part of one facet of my character. Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:16:27 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#2c2df52c-5e24-4530-9be0-2812bcabc84b Dion 2009-03-27T09:16:27Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#c28372c8-3c49-4eeb-bbcd-b4e148ca3b0e What. ? ? Oh. ! ! Umm. .......Too irascible? (Not sure I want to know who I remind you of . :-P) Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:11:15 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#c28372c8-3c49-4eeb-bbcd-b4e148ca3b0e Vicky Jo 2009-03-27T02:11:15Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#3e37c750-856e-4378-bc1f-0d7cb80ee16e vicky jo, you really are a funny woman... I laugh every time I read your posts (in a good way). You really remind me of someone else. haha. I know what you were tryin to do.... lol. (And I really cannot help but rolling on the floor right now. sorry.... :o) ) Thu, 26 Mar 2009 22:58:20 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#3e37c750-856e-4378-bc1f-0d7cb80ee16e Wyatt 2009-03-26T22:58:20Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#b17305a0-981c-453f-87fd-9b92b01f621f Did you.... read a book? Or did you just go to Wikipedia? Or maybe you read some of the fanciful free descriptions online....? Where did you "dig" exactly? Maybe you studied the tests and measures used to construct a psychometric assessment...? Perhaps you went back and read "Psychological Types" by C.G. Jung and immersed yourself thoroughly in the underlying theory...? Because I know you didn't buy my audio CD describing the 8 cognitive processes. Speaking of..... do you know what the eight cognitive processes are? Do you even know what the other 15 types are? Do you have any idea what type is based on, or what it purports to describe......? Can you name the leading figures in the type field, in the type community? How can you "prove" anything if you haven't done sufficient research and due diligence? I confess: from over here it sounds like you gave all your power and authority to a free online quiz with no veracity. You invested less in this quiz than you would in a gumball machine, and yet you're convinced it's got you pegged -- and yet all you've done in the nature of research is poke around online for a few minutes. As it happens, I've been MBTI-qualified for over 12 years, I just became an MBTI Master Practitioner, and I'm *still* trying to figure this theory of type out for myself -- so I sure the heck don't see how you can have done decent "research" in 24 hours. And don't give me an earful of how smart you are, because I'm a Mensa member myself. I'm sorry to break it to you, but there's a lot more to type than most people are aware of. Furthermore, what I surmise from this conversation is that you are demonstrating incredible gullibility and lack of effort. (No wonder the university thinks you need to meet their standards.) Given all of this, and I do apologize for repeating myself, you don't seem to have INTJ preferences to me (and I've deliberately been testing for that in every message I've posted to you). Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:04:56 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#b17305a0-981c-453f-87fd-9b92b01f621f Vicky Jo 2009-03-26T17:04:56Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#c026f6e6-8687-4c0b-a801-b772c2e41754 Ok, i did try to dig but I couldn't find much. When I found out that I was an INTJ, I researched to find out what exactly was an INTJ, and what I found fitted me. I don't believe what I'm told, first I MUST prove it. Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:09:43 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#c026f6e6-8687-4c0b-a801-b772c2e41754 Dion 2009-03-26T09:09:43Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#96f6e069-bcd9-4cf4-9b0e-d68f372557b6 Um... those scores mean nothing....? You don't seem very competent when it comes to assessments. Throwing figures at me doesn't change my view. As I said before, have you researched the quiz's validity? How do you know the assessment is measuring what it's supposed to measure? How often does it get the results it promises? How do you know somebody didn't just go make up a bunch of questions and link MBTI type codes to them? How much scientific effort went into creating this? Where's the guy in the white coat standing behind this instrument? Of late, I've gotten a *rash* of ENFPs who've taken free online quizzes somehow letting me know they got INFJ or INTJ results. I don't know which free quiz they came from, but obviously there are some serious errors in it. If you want to measure against the "gold standard," the real MBTI is a level B psychological instrument, and requires that one have a live person do a validation with you after taking it so that they may help guide you to the right code. (Even the MBTI is only 70% accurate at best -- according to its own official manual!) ....Did you even look at any other description, or did you just assume it was accurate? And if so, how gullible is that? How much more do I need to spell out for you.....? Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:44:26 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#96f6e069-bcd9-4cf4-9b0e-d68f372557b6 Vicky Jo 2009-03-25T17:44:26Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#5d266b87-5419-46fd-9d57-59f9a3ee5c8c I shall dig but, I think my scores miht clear things up.... Your personality type is INTJ. Introverted (I) 93% Extraverted (E) 7% Intuitive (N) 64% Sensing (S) 36% Thinking (T) 70% Feeling (F) 30% Judging (J) 59% Perceiving (P) 41% Also what is it that doesn't add up? Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:40:28 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#5d266b87-5419-46fd-9d57-59f9a3ee5c8c Dion 2009-03-25T10:40:28Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#93348dd4-956e-43dc-b0f3-80a0948180eb Have you researched the validation rate of that assessment, or verified its statistical accuracy in any way? In other words, what is your proof of its accuracy? How reliable is it? It seems to me that something isn't adding up right, based on the little I've seen of your messages here. (And that's the voice of someone who's been MBTI-qualified for over a decade, btw.) Sooooo.... you might ignore my hunch, or you might use that as a reason to dig a little deeper -- entirely your choice. :-) Wed, 25 Mar 2009 09:29:05 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#93348dd4-956e-43dc-b0f3-80a0948180eb Vicky Jo 2009-03-25T09:29:05Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#fda4e0ca-2c3d-4e8c-bf1d-aa6e3229739c I found out that I am INTJ on this site:http://www.kisa.ca/personality/ This type fits me, so I trust it's system. Why do you ask? Wed, 25 Mar 2009 09:09:51 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#fda4e0ca-2c3d-4e8c-bf1d-aa6e3229739c Dion 2009-03-25T09:09:51Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#c76c6991-d0c2-4431-b4dc-7f897babd4b0 and how did you come to identify your type pattern? :-) Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:40:24 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#c76c6991-d0c2-4431-b4dc-7f897babd4b0 Vicky Jo 2009-03-23T19:40:24Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#99931274-7a92-4e39-a315-62f39b3fa1e5 English is my first languange and my mistakes are caused by lazyness, but my writing is diabolical. I am diagnosed as dyspraxic but writing and motor skills are the only symtoms I have. Mon, 23 Mar 2009 11:32:07 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#99931274-7a92-4e39-a315-62f39b3fa1e5 Dion 2009-03-23T11:32:07Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#032bbb9b-f79d-45d1-ba8c-e6c3def4a6b3 It's hard to tell from written communication - is English your native language? There are quite a few spelling errors in your posts, which might be mistaken for a lack of intelligence but might not be! Sun, 22 Mar 2009 05:17:50 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#032bbb9b-f79d-45d1-ba8c-e6c3def4a6b3 Artwit 2009-03-22T05:17:50Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#9f40095c-8875-47ba-918b-98301fb6ee09 no.. my post may have been badly worded. they think that my claims on my knolege and intelect is falsely based. but they haven't tried to find out. the reason I am on the course is because of sociality's need for paper qualifications, which is absurd. Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:59:01 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#9f40095c-8875-47ba-918b-98301fb6ee09 Dion 2009-03-15T17:59:01Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#890cd87e-0231-4e54-8877-fbbe284f23bf you mean, they think you pretend to be stupid? why would you do that? Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:02:09 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#890cd87e-0231-4e54-8877-fbbe284f23bf VickZ 2009-03-12T15:02:09Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#120f16b1-7abe-47d4-86c5-64f169156c3d I am in college doing a foudation course which is an insult to my intelegnce. they seem to think that I am lying about my intelegence, but havn''t ran any tests to find out. Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:59:14 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#120f16b1-7abe-47d4-86c5-64f169156c3d Dion 2009-03-12T12:59:14Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#67230346-430a-4e24-bb52-87532c790b5d I majored in English. Like someone else said - that appears to be a bit of an anomoly on this forum. I've also tested pretty close to INFJ, so perhaps that is part of it. But it is funny that now I am working in computer support having very little to do with what I went to school for. Of course, there is the always applicable "analytical skills" that pertains to any career field. Unfortunately, I was not a very good student - I had very little motivation, attendance, and maturity at the time. I wish I had that it seems everyone else on here has to ace class without trying. Funny how so many of you are able to do that - hmm. There is no way to know for sure, obviously, but I think if I had it all to do over again it would be a much different story. It is amazing what a few years will do in the way of maturing the mind. I have a 5-year-old now and I'm pretty sure I'll find myself saying that a few more times. I'm only 30 though, so I have a few more years to say it to myself I'm sure. Tue, 03 Mar 2009 06:04:17 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#67230346-430a-4e24-bb52-87532c790b5d matthew 2009-03-03T06:04:17Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#8d10b326-a409-444c-9f9e-17ac4b72ec1f I am a Psychology Major. Thu, 18 Dec 2008 04:59:32 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#8d10b326-a409-444c-9f9e-17ac4b72ec1f sheraill 2008-12-18T04:59:32Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#2777ca79-e516-40ad-9e88-2a44937d55c5 My degree? MFA in Creative Writing (about 24 credits less than a PhD), concentration Poetry; minor Psych. However, I teach mostly university composition and literature courses. (Admittedly, not much cash in teaching, but more there than in publishing poetry.) Enjoy working with Advanced Learners more than the so-called normal students. Changed majors three times (first was Mechanical Engineering -- failed third level calculus and didn't want to wait 10 years to enter prosthetic robotics, then came Middle School Educ. -- find myself at home in the classroom, no matter which side of the desk, but preferred not to face the obstacles of dealing with administrative b.s. and educators who looked more forward to days off than to compelling true learning) before settling on my "passion." Perhaps an odd / cool thing to note . . . Poetry proves itself an extremely analytically based (on the tenet that, to succeed, it must use particular tools / methods) and analytical (break down a thing into its parts in order to illustrate a bigger entity to audience) type of lit. [Believe that's one reason why I chose verse over fiction (though did well at the latter, didn't see the ration in needing to use so many words or space to say something "deep" that could be achieved by relating the thing more succinctly and precisely) and non-fiction (too self based if narrative; too verbose if non-personal).] Think that's the reason I enjoy poems. Use the techniques / elements in a concise and meticulous manner to create something artistically satisfying, yet also intellectually stimulating. Fits my INTJ qualities quite well. Studies of rhetoric (in relation to composition and literature in general) also seem to mesh nicely with our "type." Though I may be an anomaly among INTJ's (don't find very many teachers here), truth is, I very much enjoy work at college level instructing. The critical and deep thinking expected of university students makes me consistently employ our type's personality traits. The grading works the J quadrant. In order to better reach learners, the rational aspect allows me to put into layman's terms certain higher level concepts. The I helps me to develop new methods, materials, and tools for the classroom. The N aids in "surveying" the class (I "read" their faces, postures, gestures, etc.) for possible misunderstanding, lack of comprehension and in "relating" to students. The constant re-evaluation / analysis we do links to all things concerning instruction in seeking to find the "most benefit" and "best design" for each course I teach. Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:10:36 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#2777ca79-e516-40ad-9e88-2a44937d55c5 denise 2008-12-17T17:10:36Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#5ded6fa6-7a0b-4eaa-96c5-52f53f28a7cc I went to a women's college and double majored in French and Biochemistry/Molecular Biology. After that I went to a top 10 medical school and while there got an MPH in epidemiology. I am now in residency and am planning to use a research fellowship after residency to obtain a PhD in epidemiology. I am from an Indian family of physicians, so it was ingrained in the culture that education is very important. I don't get bored with learning. I get excited when I understand things. It truly is a blessing to have a good mind. It should be used. Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:45:45 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#5ded6fa6-7a0b-4eaa-96c5-52f53f28a7cc S 2007-09-28T02:45:45Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#7e22f40d-2bbf-405b-8f6c-2650cb6904c9 BSEE 1997, MSEE 2001, going back for Ph.D. in Microelctronics-Photonics (multi-disciplinary degree) next year. I agree with a lot of what Lite Storm has said. I am hesitant to just blame it on mid-level and upper management, though, although I do not agree with the (lack of) ethics I have seen coming from that group as a whole (or corporate america in general) through much of the tech bust (2001-2004). Instead, i wll say this: Read Thomas Friedman's book, "The World is Flat". He provides a nice structure and perspectivce for what is happening with globalization, and why we are having to compete harder than ever-- especially on the tech front. In addition, we are looking against a back drop of Gen Y'ers coming out of school with (a) inflated expectations and (b) less rigor and adherence to the scientific method than what we went through in school. The inflated expectations is worrisome, because it is across "all" fields, not just tech. This generation expects to live the life style their parents raised them on... but they are coming out of school in droves with degrees that do not command those kinds of salaries. Even in my field, they expect to have what the 20 year verteran has... only RIGHT NOW. Their skill set doesn't really support what they are demanding... Additionally, our country has really lost its entreuprenural spirit over the years as a whole, although there is a more entrepreneurship happening as of recently (last 4 years) because of the job market. Schools train you to be good employees, not good business owners/entrepreneurs... some schools are trying to make the adjustment, but just because they see a market demand for it. Furthermore, on LightStorms comments... no, managment in corporate does not care about retaining good designers. Why would they? They can get them a dime-a-dozen in India, or China. India has about 7 of these ITT schools, each one as good as our MIT's or Stanford's. They have WAY more engineers than what they need over there. They have engineering Taxi-cab drivers because their job market does not support the degreed people they have coming out. China is the same way. Since they have been building their university infratructure with MIT and Stanford Ph.D.'s they are in league with the Big dog's, now. They are graduating ~800,000 engineers and scientests a year compared to our 80,000. I do not believe their labor market will support it. They do not operate on a free market like we do in our country... but they DO value education more... because as a whole their general population is poorer and education is the way out.. particularly TECH education. You will see many Taxi drivers there as well.... They will be gleeming the best of the best of the best to solve their nations problems... the rest will either come over here, or drive taxis. Get ready. It is already happening. Defense is a nice place to be right now, though. You must be an american citizen. That is, until the politics change, and funding gets cut. It is how it works in defense. Further on designers... there IS a great value in having experienced designers who have built things that WORK. This is one of the biggest problems I see with students coming out of school. They all have the theory down, but no knowledge of how the rubber meets the road... designs fail, and they have no trouble shooting skills, they have kept no worthwhile notes on their design, and they are "lost". They lack experience, so they are at a loss for alternative options. Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:48:41 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#7e22f40d-2bbf-405b-8f6c-2650cb6904c9 Wyatt 2007-08-15T23:48:41Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#e67bbe9c-85f7-44d1-8eb7-942711dcbbfc After changing majors several times (started out as music composition -- was English and psychology [amongst others] at some point or another), wound up ten years after high school graduation finally receiving a Bachelor of Science in Business, with a major in Management Science (also more popularly known as Operations Research, or as I usually explain it: "Business Statistics Plus")... Sun, 15 Apr 2007 07:01:01 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#e67bbe9c-85f7-44d1-8eb7-942711dcbbfc Andrew 2007-04-15T07:01:01Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#5957decc-2ef9-4844-863c-4a2fbc56e18b I have a BSEE from a major private school in California. I graduated with honors and I am a Tau Beta Pi member (The engineering equivalent of PBK). It took me 6 months to find my first design job right out of school and I have only been able to work 7 out of the last 10 years due to persistent layoffs and company closures. I have seen plenty of structural changes in the industry that will ultimately move most design jobs overseas. Also upper and middle management has taken competent designers for granted and see them as disposable. They will hire them and fire them as needed and they no longer look at a good designer as a valuable corporate asset that should be hoarded. Corporations have so protected themselves with Non disclosure and Invention agreements that they have little to fear if a valued designer gets picked up by the competition. Tue, 10 Apr 2007 00:21:16 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#5957decc-2ef9-4844-863c-4a2fbc56e18b Litestorm 2007-04-10T00:21:16Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#f4b67bf5-9a25-4891-801c-cbf2319ae143 I have the equivalent of an AAS degree in Electronics (60 Semester Hours) and have been an Electronics Technician for much of the past 28 years. I have an AS in Mathematics (another 63 Semester hours). I wish I had taken another 3 math classes for a BS/BA in Math. I do have a Bachelor's degree in Computer Information Science. I also have a MS Computer Information Systems. I also have the equivalent of 12 Semester hours (18 CEUs) in MCSE Certification training. Over all I have 273 Semester hours of college. That is the equivalent of 72 and 201Semester hours outright. With the exception of 1.5 years as a Test Engineer I have not had a job that required my education (except for my Electronics schooling). I am trying to get a job in software. No luck in 10 years of trying. Fri, 06 Apr 2007 02:28:00 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#f4b67bf5-9a25-4891-801c-cbf2319ae143 $item.owner.firstName 2007-04-06T02:28:00Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#fa8f0528-7bd8-4319-99d1-8bb00f1b0e4c >It sucks to be an EE these days especially if you want to do design. Really? Why? Fri, 08 Dec 2006 01:23:59 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#fa8f0528-7bd8-4319-99d1-8bb00f1b0e4c $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-08T01:23:59Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#95feadd8-7bbb-434d-8954-a81b0377552a My major is Psychology too, but I have not decided where I want to focus, although I'm toying with social psychology. Thu, 07 Dec 2006 10:32:12 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#95feadd8-7bbb-434d-8954-a81b0377552a Trevor 2006-12-07T10:32:12Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#8b745879-14fe-4a72-a3f4-9edca5b36954 I went to a strange school called St. John's College right out of high school. (see http://www.stjohnscollege.edu/asp/home.aspx ) I had applied to one other school (Earlham College in Indiana), and visited both of them. One of the things I noticed so strongly when I visited was that at Earlham, in the dining hall, people were talking about the basketball game or something similar. At St. John's, people were talking about what had happened in class, and about ideas and learning! I think if I had gone to "regular school", I may not have made it because of some of the same issues others in this thread have identified. Then after that I decided I wanted to study engineering. I took undergraduate engineering courses to prepare me for graduate school. That was a big adjustment! But by then I was older and had already studied things in a way to truly understand them, so I was able to cope with the style of just learning it this way because we said so. It was still a challenge, but I was able to cope with it better. Then I got a MS in mechanical engineering from Stanford. Once in graduate school, it was a challenge again, and almost always interesting. Great thread! Wed, 06 Dec 2006 20:35:16 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#8b745879-14fe-4a72-a3f4-9edca5b36954 smoorefu 2006-12-06T20:35:16Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#772af1e5-da11-4e5e-a6c7-85dee3e5c7fb I wish you luck, You will need it. It sucks to be an EE these days especially if you want to do design. Wed, 06 Dec 2006 18:47:15 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#772af1e5-da11-4e5e-a6c7-85dee3e5c7fb Litestorm 2006-12-06T18:47:15Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#0c37f9b8-e27c-4c83-a0b8-aa1ca1a0aaf6 I have a B.A. in English (mistake!) I am finishing up an Electrical Engineering Technology A.S. Then I'll be working on my EE. Wed, 06 Dec 2006 18:39:39 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#0c37f9b8-e27c-4c83-a0b8-aa1ca1a0aaf6 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-06T18:39:39Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#fb9631f1-1caa-40b9-9026-78c59cf2aab8 I have two degrees Management and another in Marketing and some certifications Black belt six sigma and some for APICS Wed, 06 Dec 2006 17:42:32 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#fb9631f1-1caa-40b9-9026-78c59cf2aab8 fabian 2006-12-06T17:42:32Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#841d1342-ffbc-48d8-b2fe-fd3cad5bfd8c I have two collage degrees ... one in Management and another in Marketing .... and ceberal certifications Black belt six sigma and some from APICS Wed, 06 Dec 2006 17:41:02 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#841d1342-ffbc-48d8-b2fe-fd3cad5bfd8c fabian 2006-12-06T17:41:02Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#630a5599-d1f2-403a-9467-2847efc6a337 It is a quote, but I would have a hard time finding it at this point. I think the "always" part may have been alittle bit tongue in cheek. Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:53:19 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#630a5599-d1f2-403a-9467-2847efc6a337 Artwit 2006-10-20T06:53:19Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#2d4abc35-fce1-45a7-a794-b778af2f6eaa I dropped out of school after the 7th grade due to the extreme social pressures I seemed to always experience in a classroom. I later obtained a GED, Associate Degree in Computer Information Processing and Bachelor Degree in Social Work(all with honors.) Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:11:41 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#2d4abc35-fce1-45a7-a794-b778af2f6eaa Art 2006-10-18T13:11:41Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#47bd672a-0dde-48eb-bde7-78c2d5be792e Is that a quote from somewhere? (Always is a big word.) Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:51:59 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#47bd672a-0dde-48eb-bde7-78c2d5be792e Francesca 2004-08-24T17:51:59Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#cb03d584-4191-48dc-831d-ad517c715bb9 Princeton Ph.D. in General Relativity. Maybe it was the alternative of getting drafted and sent to Vietnam, or family pressures that got me into it, but eventually it became my own. Unfortunately, the opportunities for work that weren't military-related were few and far between, and I am happy to have uncomfortable career choices behind me, now early retired. INTJ's "always retire early to do what interests them." Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:26:20 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#cb03d584-4191-48dc-831d-ad517c715bb9 Artwit 2004-08-24T13:26:20Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#a4972fcd-5e98-4c0e-919e-849517fe6949 A lot of classes do bore me. I tend to learn a lot on my own time or retain most of whatever I've picked up anywhere else. Then I get into a class and end up feeling like I know a lot of it, last time I took a chem class the bulk of the real knowledge was mathematical and I was bored stiff, and easily passed the class. Sometimes you just have to sit there and suffer, or learn to space out while keeping just enough of the lectures flow to know when to tune back in for new information. The highschool I went to didn't have the lecture format though, surprisingly I did terrible there. Self motivation was not my strong point, I'm happy to have learned that before getting to college and trying a distance learning class and paying to learn that lesson. Do you still go to libraries and read whatever is interesting? I've watched documentaries since I was 8. If anyone remembers beyond 2000 on the discovery channel, I have fond memories of doing my homework right after school while watching that. Sat, 17 Jul 2004 02:29:15 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#a4972fcd-5e98-4c0e-919e-849517fe6949 Haldan 2004-07-17T02:29:15Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#51e84c2e-dcd2-42bf-9d89-c7ce3e123971 Bachelor's - Psychology Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:22:16 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#51e84c2e-dcd2-42bf-9d89-c7ce3e123971 elle 2004-07-13T19:22:16Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#a58a7878-2524-45dd-8aae-092bffa631ab You're lucky you had teachers in high school who understood you. I had one teacher in high school - a student teacher - who identified me as an "abstract thinker." She knew that I'd be bored to tears by the linear learning methods employed in conventional American classrooms. She gave me a lot of emotional support. Now that I think about it, the best teachers I had in high school were student teachers - maybe it was their enthusiasm or the fact that they'd been trained in more contemporary teaching theory and were able to recognize my different manner of thinking. Either way, they're the only ones who kept me on my toes. I danced circles around the "real" teachers I had. Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:42:51 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#a58a7878-2524-45dd-8aae-092bffa631ab $item.owner.firstName 2004-07-13T14:42:51Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#30993f66-7724-418d-945e-fc5686c0f8e5 Ive always hated sitting in classes and found that I can learn more effectivly on my own. I used to ditch high school and go to the public library during school hours and read about whatever I was interested in that day. I think I missed something like 60 days of school my senior year. I think I was lucky that for the most part I had teachers that understood me didnt give me grief as long as I showed up to take tests and turn in the occasional assignment. Took a semester of college and decided that it was useless. I am just worried that down the road its going to bite me in the ass. Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:23:32 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#30993f66-7724-418d-945e-fc5686c0f8e5 Joe 2004-07-12T23:23:32Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#b1bd3cf0-1dfe-45ed-b4fd-6f6b745607dd I've finished (just recently) an associates degree and plan to go on to a bachelors. If I hadn't found my subject though I probably wouldn't proceed with college. I found college to completely lack challenge, except math which is the subject I like specifically because it does challenge me. Mostly the problem is I can memorize things with very very little effort so I could pass almost any class by just attending. Math required me to apply mental effort to understand and comphrehend though as well as being difficult even still. Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:43:04 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#b1bd3cf0-1dfe-45ed-b4fd-6f6b745607dd Haldan 2004-07-07T00:43:04Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#c133bbf3-9515-4f84-961a-5646d01243c6 I have two bachelor's degrees - sociology and then a post bac degree in Spanish. I then went on and finished a juris doctorate. I obtained them in the traditional university environment. I did take a couple years off after high school though, to travel and slum. Undergraduate education, in my opinion, isn't about nailing down a career. Most major fields can't be used for career purposes. For example, you have to go on to grad school and finish your PhD if you want to be a sociologist. It used to be about teaching people a comprehensive world view, a certain way of thinking and approaching life. It's also about networking. I was lucky to have that. These days, particularly with the rise of online schooling, colleges seem to be more about credentializing than educating. Like most things, however, it's what you choose to make of it. Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:31:15 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#c133bbf3-9515-4f84-961a-5646d01243c6 $item.owner.firstName 2004-07-06T23:31:15Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#c8a7a48a-44fe-42cc-bc9b-011c58743259 i have a bachelor of horticultural science....but uni's a bit differenct here....as is school. i've never used my degree....i work in retail planning now. Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:18:03 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#c8a7a48a-44fe-42cc-bc9b-011c58743259 larissa 2004-07-06T23:18:03Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#ef3735dd-f17a-4d1e-9f50-d06a0922db6a I almost dropped out of high school, and then I almost quit college early with only one of my two majors' requirements complete. I found the whole "educational" experience to be frustrating and painful. Like you said, an amplified extension of high school except no parents around to provide a hint of regulation (not that I needed any staying in my room with my textbooks...and classmates wondered why I never stressed about studying). Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:13:04 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#ef3735dd-f17a-4d1e-9f50-d06a0922db6a Nik 2004-07-06T23:13:04Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#9e1c1137-a278-40f4-b1d6-55664addc136 Heh, dropped out of college after one year. Took education in my own hands as well. Now make 100k+/year in a senior software position in Silicon Valley, and also run my own business. Eat my shorts professor. haha. Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:38:48 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#9e1c1137-a278-40f4-b1d6-55664addc136 $item.owner.firstName 2004-07-06T22:38:48Z http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#e00def52-8c60-4556-bbfa-d0ab433f83b0 Just looking for more commonalities. I graduated from high school in 1987. I perceived college as an amplified extension of high school, in which drinking beer was everyone's major, and that college was nothing more than glorified, expensive job training. Back then, I didn't need a degree in order to be successful or valued in the workplace. I worked as a staff accountant worth $35,000 per year, with 4 years experience by the time I was 23. College didn't suit my learning style or fit into my career hours. I felt it insulted my intelligence and held me back, so I had to take responsibility for my own learning. I purchased text books from student book exchanges and studied them on my own. I have an estimated 1500 books in my library, 15 years of work documentation and glowing letters of reference from people with master degrees and doctorates - but none of that seems to matter now, because I don't have a gold stamp of approval from a degree-granting institution stamped on my forehead. School is different now, with accredited online schools that do recognize that people can learn outside the walls of a traditional school setting, and will give you credit for competencies, so I'm now completing a degree in Human Resources Management; then I'm going for a Master in Organizational Behavior, and possibly a Ph.D. in Organizational Psychology. Even if traditional college attendance did appeal to me after high school graduation, I couldn't have chosen a major. I didn't know who I was or what interested me - what my passions were... I didn't want to be cast into a mold. I didn't want to be an accountant or a marketer or a personnel manager, etc. I started my own consulting firm 5 years ago, and since I didn't have degree credentials, I got certified in Organizational Management and Business Development. Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:54:08 GMT http://INTJ.tribe.net/thread/10f304c1-daa0-41f4-a0ef-522428bfdcd2#e00def52-8c60-4556-bbfa-d0ab433f83b0 The Other Lisa 2004-07-06T21:54:08Z